72 virgins? For real dude?

[sasuke]

Did you form this opinion based upon your in depth study of history, and the religion of Islam, or are you just parroting what you read on the internet? People who spout opinions as facts merely reveal their ignorance. I am an atheist. I believe ALL religions are wrong in their belief in a supernatural deity. I can put forth what I believe based upon the beliefs themselves, without resorting to personal attacks on the follwers of these religions, or the figures involved in their origins. Perhaps you should read more books, as it would allow you to engage in discourse without appearing a fool.

Who was personally attacked? Muhammad the pedophile?  I don't think that he will mind.  Too bad for his followers if the truth offends them.  I can put forth a logical argument as to why Islam is false without insulting Mohammad the pedophile warlord, but I don't want or intend to do it any time soon.

If you believe in the Bukhari Hadith, as many Muslims do, then you know that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with Aisha when she was nine years old.

I formed this opinion based on the fact that nobody, including Muslims, have ever denied that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with a nine year old.

Keep replying to me.  It will just give me an excuse to remind people about the fact that Mohammad was a pedophile warlord.

People reading this thread should start a drinking game.  Every time I mention 'Mohammad the pedophile warlord', they should take a shot.

[Plu]

You know, I was reading a bit of Wikipedia on the topic:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Marriage_to_Muhammad)

And two things become pretty clear when you read the text:

1) it seems pretty clear she was 10 at most (especially the references like "He would often just sit and watch her and her friends play with dolls, and on occasion he would even join them." seem very peculiar if she's supposed to be older)

2) the guy was obviously just making it up as he went. He happened to get "revelations from god" just on the very moment after something happened he didn't agree with, and it always turned out that god agreed with his views.

Oh, and there's plenty of sources in the article if anyone wants to trace them :) It seems trustworthy enough.

Have some quotes:

[spoil:3r2658tu]

There are also various traditions that reveal the mutual affection between Muhammad and Aisha. He would often just sit and watch her and her friends play with dolls, and on occasion he would even join them.

The story of accusation of adultery levied against Aisha can be traced to chapter 24 in the book al-Nur in the Quran. [snip] The accusations of adultery came from Zainab, who levied the charges against Aisha and Safwan while at the same time Abdullah bin Ubai and Hamna bint Jahsh (Zainab's sister) spread the rumors started about the infidelity. Usama bin Zayd, son of Zayd ibn Harithah, defended Aisha's reputation and Muhammad came to speak directly with Aisha about the rumors. Shortly after this, Muhammad announced that he had received a revelation from God confirming Aisha's innocence. Known as the Surah an-Nur, God had revealed to Muhammad the laws and punishment regarding adultery. Aisha's accusers faced punishments of up to 80 lashes.

After the daily Asr prayer, Muhammad would visit each of his wives' apartments to inquire about their well-being. Muhammad was just in the amount of time he spent with them and attention he gave to them. Once Muhammad's fifth wife, Zaynab bint Jahsh, received some honey from a relative which The Prophet took a particular liking to. As a result, every time Zaynab offered some of this honey to him he would spend a longer time in her apartment. This did not sit well with Aisha and Hafsa bint Umar who felt impatient in waiting for their visit from Muhammad, and so they hatched a plan which was later revisited by Aisha. "So Hafsa and I agreed secretly that, if he come to either of us, she would say to him: It seems you have eaten Maghafir (a kind of bad-smelling resin), for I smell in you the smell of Maghafir. We did so and he replied No, but I was drinking honey in the house of Zaynab, the daughter of Jahsh, and I shall never take it again. I have taken an oath as to that, and you should not tell anybody about it". Soon after this event, Muhammad reported that he had received a revelation, in which he was told that he could eat anything permitted by God.

[/spoil:3r2658tu]

[Belial]

If you believe in the Bukhari Hadith, as many Muslims do, then you know that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with Aisha when she was nine years old.

Well, there are many muslims who do not believe in the Bukhari hadith.

So now what?

Also you will find mixes of the two views, in that, even upon marriage, intercourse was not permitted until later years.  Assuming the discussion revolves around sex, rather than the marriage itself.

[Bibliofagus]

So it´s okay to think allah is a prick?

Its ok to believe in what you believe. Nobody can control your beliefs, they are yours.

So it's okay for muslims to reject allah?

[Icarus]

Would you like to answer my question?

I asked "How are you proving that I am a penguin just because you believe it is so?".

You havent answered.

If people believe in something, to them it is possible, not to everyone. If I believed the sun was made of water, it may appear possible to me, but not to everyone.  Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility that the sun is made of water.

Though, you can make a note, that I never said it did, and if I had, I apologize, I meant what I just said here, now.

If you are simply suggesting that our interpretations do not equate to reality, then I agree.

Honestly though, I still do not know what point you are trying to reach with your penguin analogies.

I actually answered your question twice, do you need me to highlight it for you? Add some stars and pretty colours? I've already answered the point of the penguin analogies as well. Refer to my last post. If you agree that our interpretations do not equate to reality than why did you say that many muslims believe Aisha was not young, therefore it is possible Aisha was not young?

[Belial]

Refer to my last post. If you agree that our interpretations do not equate to reality than why did you say that many muslims believe Aisha was not young, therefore it is possible Aisha was not young?

Ill add one part of my last post here to assist.

"If people believe in something, to them it is possible, not to everyone. If I believed the sun was made of water, it may appear possible to me, but not to everyone. Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility that the sun is made of water.

Though, you can make a note, that I never said it did, and if I had, I apologize, I meant what I just said here, now.
"

Interpretations do not equate to reality, and many muslims do believe that Aisha was not young.  This is a fact.

You are asking why I have said this.  I have said this, because both are true statements.

[Belial]

So it's okay for muslims to reject allah?

If you rejected Allah, then you would be rejecting basically the central tenet that defines Islam. Maybe in your mind, you could do this :P, i dont know if anyone would agree, but yes you are free to believe what you want.

Thats a cool question btw, i like that.

There are muslims who do reject Allah and ultimately come to claim themselves as apostates.  So it is certainly a possibility.  To claim you are still muslim after becoming a non believer, seems odd, but i suppose someone who views Islam in a specific way, and views Allah in a specific way, may be able to do this.

That would be quite the intellectual challenge.

[Colanth]

Ill add one part of my last post here to assist.

"If people believe in something, to them it is possible, not to everyone.

You're confusing "possible" with "believable".  "Possible" has nothing to do with belief.

If I believed the sun was made of water, it may appear possible to me

It may appear possible to you, but it's still not actually possible.

Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility

Which contradicts what you said above.  Either it is "physically and realistically a possibility" (another way of saying "is possible") or it's not.  It can't be possible but not physically and realistically a possibility at the same time.

Interpretations do not equate to reality

But "possible" does.

You are asking why I have said this.  I have said this, because both are true statements.

Two contradictory statements can't both be true under the same conditions.

[Belial]

"Possible" has nothing to do with belief.

Thats what I said. To people, something may appear possible, doesnt mean it is, though it may be.

I guess ill reiterate again.

"If people believe in something, to them it is possible, not to everyone. If I believed the sun was made of water, it may appear possible to me, but not to everyone. Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility that the sun is made of water.

Though, you can make a note, that I never said it did, and if I had, I apologize, I meant what I just said here, now.
"

It may appear possible to you, but it's still not actually possible.

It may be, depending on what the belief is. If i believe the sun consists of hydrogen, my belief could certainly be possible.

A Either it is "physically and realistically a possibility" (another way of saying "is possible") or it's not.  It can't be possible but not physically and realistically a possibility at the same time.

Yea...

But "possible" does.

Yea...

Two contradictory statements can't both be true under the same conditions.

How do the two contract eachother?

"Interpretations do not equate to reality, and many muslims do believe that Aisha was not young."

How do these two things contradict eachother?

A."Interpretations do not equate to reality"

We seem to both agree on A.

B. "many muslims do believe that Aisha was not young"

In regards to B, this is a known fact. You could go fly to the middle east right now and start asking muslims, and you would find muslims who do not believe she was young upon marriage.

So where is the contradiction?

[Jmpty]

Did you form this opinion based upon your in depth study of history, and the religion of Islam, or are you just parroting what you read on the internet? People who spout opinions as facts merely reveal their ignorance. I am an atheist. I believe ALL religions are wrong in their belief in a supernatural deity. I can put forth what I believe based upon the beliefs themselves, without resorting to personal attacks on the follwers of these religions, or the figures involved in their origins. Perhaps you should read more books, as it would allow you to engage in discourse without appearing a fool.

Who was personally attacked? Muhammad the pedophile?  I don't think that he will mind.  Too bad for his followers if the truth offends them.  I can put forth a logical argument as to why Islam is false without insulting Mohammad the pedophile warlord, but I don't want or intend to do it any time soon.

If you believe in the Bukhari Hadith, as many Muslims do, then you know that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with Aisha when she was nine years old.

I formed this opinion based on the fact that nobody, including Muslims, have ever denied that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with a nine year old.

Keep replying to me.  It will just give me an excuse to remind people about the fact that Mohammad was a pedophile warlord.

People reading this thread should start a drinking game.  Every time I mention 'Mohammad the pedophile warlord', they should take a shot.

You sound like an evangelical christian, attempting do differentiate his religion from Islam by the only means at his disposal, knowing full well the culture and social morals of the time. Or maybe you don't, so you'll have to refer to that pesky reading thing again. It's comments like yours that give atheism a bad name, if you indeed are an atheist. If you are a christian, well, keep up the good work.

[Bibliofagus]

So it's okay for muslims to reject allah?

If you rejected Allah, then you would be rejecting basically the central tenet that defines Islam. Maybe in your mind, you could do this :P

I would have no problem doing just that, probably I wouldn't even be able to help doing it. The gods described in the bible and quran are deeply immoral, and if I believed they were real I would at least want to oppose them. And maybe I would.

i dont know if anyone would agree, but yes you are free to believe what you want.

Thats a cool question btw, i like that.

Thank you. I like your answer as well. It's not often we get a theist here who appears to understand what is being said to him. Most are... let's say...

No matter.

I have another question. Is there any characteristic allah could have that you disapprove of? Maybe even strong enough to want to oppose him?

[sasuke]

If you believe in the Bukhari Hadith, as many Muslims do, then you know that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with Aisha when she was nine years old.

Well, there are many muslims who do not believe in the Bukhari hadith.

So now what?

Also you will find mixes of the two views, in that, even upon marriage, intercourse was not permitted until later years.  Assuming the discussion revolves around sex, rather than the marriage itself.

The marriage itself happened at 6 or 7 tops.  The Bukhari texts are clear on when the sex happened.  Bukhari is considered a traditional source in Islam.  You're the one who has to justify as to why you don't believe in it.

[sasuke]

Did you form this opinion based upon your in depth study of history, and the religion of Islam, or are you just parroting what you read on the internet? People who spout opinions as facts merely reveal their ignorance. I am an atheist. I believe ALL religions are wrong in their belief in a supernatural deity. I can put forth what I believe based upon the beliefs themselves, without resorting to personal attacks on the follwers of these religions, or the figures involved in their origins. Perhaps you should read more books, as it would allow you to engage in discourse without appearing a fool.

Who was personally attacked? Muhammad the pedophile?  I don't think that he will mind.  Too bad for his followers if the truth offends them.  I can put forth a logical argument as to why Islam is false without insulting Mohammad the pedophile warlord, but I don't want or intend to do it any time soon.

If you believe in the Bukhari Hadith, as many Muslims do, then you know that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with Aisha when she was nine years old.

I formed this opinion based on the fact that nobody, including Muslims, have ever denied that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with a nine year old.

Keep replying to me.  It will just give me an excuse to remind people about the fact that Mohammad was a pedophile warlord.

People reading this thread should start a drinking game.  Every time I mention 'Mohammad the pedophile warlord', they should take a shot.

You sound like an evangelical christian, attempting do differentiate his religion from Islam by the only means at his disposal, knowing full well the culture and social morals of the time.

Wow, I've never heard that one before.  I judge him by today's standards.

Or maybe you don't, so you'll have to refer to that pesky reading thing again. It's comments like yours that give atheism a bad name, if you indeed are an atheist. If you are a christian, well, keep up the good work.

My atheism has nothing to do with giving atheists anything.  Neither a bad or a good name.  My atheism has to do with not believing in gods.  Nothing else can be inferred from it.
By the way, Muhammad was a pedophile warlord.

[Belial]

The marriage itself happened at 6 or 7 tops.  The Bukhari texts are clear on when the sex happened.  Bukhari is considered a traditional source in Islam.  You're the one who has to justify as to why you don't believe in it.

Bukhari is not considered a transitional "credible" source in Islam to all muslims. So you cant really use that to forge an argument.

[Jmpty]

The marriage itself happened at 6 or 7 tops.  The Bukhari texts are clear on when the sex happened.  Bukhari is considered a traditional source in Islam.  You're the one who has to justify as to why you don't believe in it.

Bukhari is not considered a transitional "credible" source in Islam to all muslims. So you cant really use that to forge an argument.

Maybe he's not Sunni, which is the only sect that views the Bukharis as you describe. More lernin' for you, I'm afraid.