72 virgins? For real dude?

[Jmpty]

.
You sound like an evangelical christian, attempting do differentiate his religion from Islam by the only means at his disposal, knowing full well the culture and social morals of the time.[/quote]

Wow, I've never heard that one before. I judge him by today's standards.

Or maybe you don't, so you'll have to refer to that pesky reading thing again. It's comments like yours that give atheism a bad name, if you indeed are an atheist. If you are a christian, well, keep up the good work.

My atheism has nothing to do with giving atheists anything.  Neither a bad or a good name.  My atheism has to do with not believing in gods.  Nothing else can be inferred from it.
By the way, Muhammad was a pedophile warlord.[/quote]

See, ah, that doesn't really work, as mores and customs have changed quite a bit. Do you judge your own ancestors by the same standard?

[Plu]

I think what the whole discussion about what people believe and what is possible comes down to is simply this:

The muslims who believe aisha was not young can believe it with all their heart, the only it makes them, is wrong.

Does that solve it? To many skeptics here, "being wrong" is a problematic experience, but to many theists, the goal is to believe something that makes them all fuzzy inside, not to believe something that is factually correct. They'll just continue to believe something factually incorrect to be true, and they'll not see the problem with that at all.

[sasuke]

See, ah, that doesn't really work, as mores and customs have changed quite a bit. Do you judge your own ancestors by the same standard?

No, but my ancestors weren't chosen by Allah to be his prophets, and they aren't considered  to be a role models for their followers.  The prophet of Allah should have known better.

[Jmpty]

You can believe Aisha was, or was not, a child bride. You can believe Mary was a virgin. It really changes nothing.

[Belial]

I think what the whole discussion about what people believe and what is possible comes down to is simply this:

The muslims who believe aisha was not young can believe it with all their heart, the only it makes them, is wrong.

They'll just continue to believe something factually incorrect to be true, and they'll not see the problem with that at all.

Maybe the muslims who do not believe Aisha was young, are correct.  How would you know?

[Plu]

Maybe the muslims who do not believe Aisha was young, are correct. How would you know?

Thing is, if they are correct, they're also wrong about everything else because that would mean the Qu'ran contains errors, which means it's no longer the infallible word of god, which means that everything else they believe in suddenly falls apart. The Qu'ran is supposed to be without error. It says she was 9 or 10.

That means either she was 9 or 10, or there are errors in the book. Thus, believing anything except her being 9 or 10 means you're basically admitting that the Qu'ran is fallible and contains errors.

[bennyboy]

I've actually been with a virgin.  72 of those would be nothing like heaven.  In my Quran, it would read more like "If you sin, you will be forced to live for eternity with 72 virgins."

[Belial]

Thing is, if they are correct, they're also wrong about everything else because that would mean the Qu'ran contains errors, which means it's no longer the infallible word of god, which means that everything else they believe in suddenly falls apart. The Qu'ran is supposed to be without error. It says she was 9 or 10.

That means either she was 9 or 10, or there are errors in the book. Thus, believing anything except her being 9 or 10 means you're basically admitting that the Qu'ran is fallible and contains errors.

The Quran doesnt speak about Aishas age.   This discussion really doesnt have anything to do with the Quran.

Id suggest some of you guys, but certainly not all, go do some reading, and come back when you have a real argument.

[Colanth]

"Possible" has nothing to do with belief.

Thats what I said.

No, you said, "If people believe in something, to them it is possible", which says that "possible" is determined by belief.

To people, something may appear possible, doesnt mean it is, though it may be.

No, you said "is possible", not "may appear to be possible", which is a totally different thing.  Something can appear to be possible to a particular person, but it's either possible or not, regardless of whether someone believes that it's possible or not.  "Is possible" doesn't depend on whether someone believes it is, and it's not changed by someone's belief.

"If people believe in something, to them it is possible

Which is exactly the opposite of "may appear to be possible".

It may appear possible to you, but it's still not actually possible.

It may be, depending on what the belief is.

Of course - one may believe something that's true.  But you claimed (although it may not be what you meant) that if someone believes something, it's possible.  Yet, as you also said, believing that the sun is water doesn't make the sun water.  (Yet your original assertion is that believing that the sun is water would make it be possible for the sun to be water - which it's not.)

If i believe the sun consists of hydrogen, my belief could certainly be possible.

Yes - but believing that it's water certainly doesn't make it possible for the sun to be water, which your original assertion says it does, to the person holding that belief.  It makes it believable to that person, it doesn't make it possible.

A Either it is "physically and realistically a possibility" (another way of saying "is possible") or it's not.  It can't be possible but not physically and realistically a possibility at the same time.

Yea...

But "possible" does.

Yea...

Two contradictory statements can't both be true under the same conditions.

How do the two contract eachother?

"Is possible" and "isn't physically and realistically a possibility" are contradictory, since "is possible" and "is physically and realistically a possibility" are the same thing and "a thing" and "not that thing" are contradictory.

"Interpretations do not equate to reality, and many muslims do believe that Aisha was not young."

"Is possible" isn't an interpretation, it's a statement of fact.  Whether they believe that she was not young has nothing to do with whether she actually was not young.  (Of course it's possible - and true - that at one time she was young and at another time she was not young.  But their belief that at the time Mohammed first had sex with her she was not young has absolutely nothing to do with how old she was when he first had sex with her.  Or with whether it's possible that he had sex with her when she was young - which, of course, it is.)

So where is the contradiction?

The difference between "is possible" and "I believe" seems to escape you.  "Possible" doesn't have anything to do with belief, it's a statement of fact.  Whether anyone believes that the moon is made of green cheese, it's not possible.  It can't "be possible" to the person who believes it, it's either possible or it's not, and that's determined by reality, not by someone's belief.  Whether someone believes a thing to be true has nothing to do with whether it is true.  Even if everyone believed that the world is flat, it wouldn't be true.  Not in reality and not "to them".

[Plu]

Ah. Too many books and hear-say and semi-historic crap interwoven then. Never mind previous argument.

I suppose they're just wrong due to complete lack of evidence for their position, then.

edit

Id suggest some of you guys, but certainly not all, go do some reading, and come back when you have a real argument.

A real argument about what? I'm not really trying to present any major arguments, just trying to have a bit of discussion and learning some new things. I could create an argument if that makes you happy, but it wouldn't be nearly as in-depth as what's going on here, because there's absolutely no need to.

[Belial]

No, you said, "If people believe in something, to them it is possible", which says that "possible" is determined by belief.

For the fourth time.

"If people believe in something, to them it is possible, not to everyone. If I believed the sun was made of water, it may appear possible to me, but not to everyone. Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility that the sun is made of water.

Though, you can make a note, that I never said it did, and if I had, I apologize, I meant what I just said here, now.
"

I said, "possible to them". Then after that I said "may appear possible to me".

Then after that I said

" Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility that the sun is made of water.

Though, you can make a note, that I never said it did, and if I had, I apologize, I meant what I just said here, now."

then I said "To people, something may appear possible, doesnt mean it is, though it may be."

Perhaps you lack the capability to understand what I am saying to you.
----------------------------------------------
What I am saying is, things may appear to be possible to some people, however, that doesnt mean they are.

wait wait, let me just copy what ive already said

"To people, something may appear possible, doesnt mean it is, though it may be."

wait wait...hold on, just in case.

Things that are real in this world, are not always exactly as people believe them to be.

Do you understand now?

[Belial]

My lord you are stubborn hahaha

Yes, my very first statement sounded as if I said, belief=to reality.

After that, I not only apologized for any misinterpretation, but i must have stated about 10 times now that belief does not equate to reality.

OK, I am going to move on to the next point of the discussion now. I am going to assume that you now understand what I mean.

Well, i guess there is no other point because thats all you have been trying to argue for the last 10 posts.  A point which I agree on that belief is not the same thing as fact.

good job. =D>

It is such a good conclusion, that it is as if I didnt just repeat it myself hahaha

[Belial]

So now that we have established that belief and reality are not the same thing,

What is your actual argument?

[Belial]

Here are some facts, that do not contradict eachother.

Belief, does not equate to reality.

There are muslims who believe that Aisha was older and at a mature age upon marriage.

Here is another true statement....

There are muslims who do not believe in the whole 72 virgins in heaven idea.

That ought to clear up just about all of the misconceptions amongst people in this room.

[Sleeper]

Any muslims here? I've always wondered... do you really believe, no, I mean do you really believe that once in Paradise you will have 72 virgins(we don't know which sex btw...) waiting for you there? Is that Paradise for you? Nothing else? What do the women get then? Nothing? Is that all your "god" can offer his followers? Not to mention the obscenity of that gift.

Please... if you don't want to become christians, at least become atheists; because they will have it far better than you during the tribulation.

Tribulation? For real, dude?