Any muslims here? I've always wondered... do you really believe, no, I mean do you really believe that once in Paradise you will have 72 virgins(we don't know which sex btw...) waiting for you there? Is that Paradise for you? Nothing else? What do the women get then? Nothing? Is that all your "god" can offer his followers? Not to mention the obscenity of that gift.
Please... if you don't want to become christians, at least become atheists; because they will have it far better than you during the tribulation.
This is like watching a guy go "hahaha you people believe the Loch Ness Monster is a dinosaur? Come on, everybody smart knows that it's a stranded alien."
Really amusing from an outside perspective.
hmmm, but yet your all powerful god was stymied by an army of humans because they had iron wheels....all powerful eh? LOLOL
I always thought 72 strippers and porn actress's would have been a better selling point than 72 old spinsters.
I don't know. Do you believe man was made from clay 6,000 years ago? Or that a woman was created from the first man's rib? Sound kinda silly, like that virgin thing.
When I was a Muslim, I used to think that this was real. Since I'm gay, I just assumed that I was gonna get 72 male virgins. Not only that, in Islamic paradise, you don't have to worry about, peeing or taking a poo, cause you're a spirit. So I had wondered though, if we're spirit, how the hell do we have some fun with all those virgins we've won? Something's odd but I always tried not to think about it. Oh, and there's no old people, err, spirit in Islamic Heaven. All shall become young, 20 something. Also, you can reach any fruits you like, and drink a river full of milk, or honey.
I want 72 horny college girls in those tight spandex pants.. Where do I take my vows?
Still think you're going to live forever after you die?
Quote from: "the_antithesis"Still think you're going to live forever after you die?
With 72 horny college girls in spandex I don't care. I'd be happy to survive through just 2 or 3. :P
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"With 72 horny college girls in spandex I don't care. I'd be happy to survive through just 2 or 3. :P
meh, bitches be crazy..after sex they prolly wanta go to Denny's......fuck that.
Quote from: "aitm"Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"With 72 horny college girls in spandex I don't care. I'd be happy to survive through just 2 or 3. :P
meh, bitches be crazy..after sex they prolly wanta go to Denny's......fuck that.
Meh...so let em go to Denny's. I'm good with staying in taking a nap till they get back.. Of course there IS that eternity thing... :-k
My god is cooler than your god. Is that the game we're playing now?
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"Quote from: "aitm"Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"With 72 horny college girls in spandex I don't care. I'd be happy to survive through just 2 or 3. :P
meh, bitches be crazy..after sex they prolly wanta go to Denny's......fuck that.
Meh...so let em go to Denny's. I'm good with staying in taking a nap till they get back.. Of course there IS that eternity thing... :-k
I was with this batshit crazy-freaky chick once... afterwards she wanted to go to IHOP. I shit you not...
Quote from: "Jmpty"My god is cooler than your god. Is that the game we're playing now?
My god's bigger than your god.
My god's bigger than yours.
My god's bigger, and he chases mailmen.
My god's bigger than yours.
I am muslim, and I personally do not believe in the whole 72 virgins thing.
All religions have their old timey ideas and interpretations that, over time are outdated.
Quote from: "Belial"All religions have their old timey ideas and interpretations that, over time are outdated.
So, what's to keep from throwing out the whole idea and how does one determine which ideas are true and which ones are safe to throw away?
72 porn stars is better .
Quote from: "Belial"I am muslim, and I personally do not believe in the whole 72 virgins thing.
All religions have their old timey ideas and interpretations that, over time are outdated.
So... you are saying you do not believe in the whole of the qur'an?... :popcorn:
Quote from: "the_antithesis"Quote from: "Belial"All religions have their old timey ideas and interpretations that, over time are outdated.
So, what's to keep from throwing out the whole idea and how does one determine which ideas are true and which ones are safe to throw away?
My point exactly. Let's see what his answer is...
curious question from a person who urges one to read the new testament FIRST. Typical of those embarrassed by the OT.
Eh, you don't believe in the whole of your books either.
Quote from: "aitm"curious question from a person who urges one to read the new testament FIRST. Typical of those embarrassed by the OT.
Not at all embarrassed by the OT. In fact, I firmly believe that someone who has limited knowledge on The OT will never fully understand the NT.
Without the foundation, everything crumbles.
Quote from: "SHIN KAIRI"Quote from: "aitm"curious question from a person who urges one to read the new testament FIRST. Typical of those embarrassed by the OT.
Not at all embarrassed by the OT. In fact, I firmly believe that someone who has limited knowledge on The OT will never fully understand the NT.
Without the foundation, everything crumbles.
Do you believe that the OT is the word of god?
Of course he does Jmpty, the parts he agrees with and that don't conflict or haven't been disproved or........
Quote from: "Jmpty"Quote from: "SHIN KAIRI"Quote from: "aitm"curious question from a person who urges one to read the new testament FIRST. Typical of those embarrassed by the OT.
Not at all embarrassed by the OT. In fact, I firmly believe that someone who has limited knowledge on The OT will never fully understand the NT.
Without the foundation, everything crumbles.
Do you believe that the OT is the word of god?
What kind of a christian would I be if I said no?
Quote from: "SHIN KAIRI"Quote from: "Jmpty"Do you believe that the OT is the word of god?
What kind of a christian would I be if I said no?
A typical one?
What about that whole "Kill all gays!" thing?
Leviticus 20:13 Suppose a man has sex with another man as he would have sex with a woman. I hate what they have done. They must be put to death. Anything that happens to them will be their own fault
Remember, this isn't symbolic. This is God, speaking clearing and directly, to Moses. A clear command.
Quote from: "the_antithesis"Quote from: "Belial"All religions have their old timey ideas and interpretations that, over time are outdated.
So, what's to keep from throwing out the whole idea and how does one determine which ideas are true and which ones are safe to throw away?
Everyone keeps some ideas and throws away others. The same could be said for anyone. I keep ideas that I am fond of.
Also, people have varying interpretations of things. So, while some muslims may read the Quran and say, oh 72 virgins with big breats in heaven,
Not all muslims will say, oh yes 72 big breasted women in Jannah.
Some may believe in less, or more, or physically more spiritual than physically big breasted.
Some may view it, more as a pure prescience, rather than a physically pure "virgin" who is big breasted.
There are different interpretations.
So, it's a cafeteria style religion? Like a buffet? You just get to pick the things you like, and leave the rest?
Quote from: "Jmpty"So, it's a cafeteria style religion? Like a buffet? You just get to pick the things you like, and leave the rest?
Pretty much. Well, you choose amongst the better tasting flavor. If you have two interpretations and two understandings of what Islam is, you can freely choose amongst the options. You cant simply not choose any flavor, then you would be a non believer.
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "the_antithesis"Quote from: "Belial"All religions have their old timey ideas and interpretations that, over time are outdated.
So, what's to keep from throwing out the whole idea and how does one determine which ideas are true and which ones are safe to throw away?
I keep ideas that I am fond of.
Sounds like the word of a perfect god.
Quote from: "the_antithesis"Sounds like the word of a perfect god.
After it is manipulated with human interpretation, yes absolutely.
It's also a piss-poor way to decide on religious dogma. It's basically based on a whim. Your whim. So your god is basically you. It's like a G.I. Joe. You stole the old Canaanite war god from the last group that was raping it and made it your own Cobra Commander.
Quote from: "the_antithesis"It's also a piss-poor way to decide on religious dogma. It's basically based on a whim. Your whim. So your god is basically you. It's like a G.I. Joe. You stole the old Canaanite war god from the last group that was raping it and made it your own Cobra Commander.
Sorry, I dont know much about GI Joe. I honestly do not know what you mean.
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "the_antithesis"It's also a piss-poor way to decide on religious dogma. It's basically based on a whim. Your whim. So your god is basically you. It's like a G.I. Joe. You stole the old Canaanite war god from the last group that was raping it and made it your own Cobra Commander.
Sorry, I dont know much about GI Joe. I honestly do not know what you mean.
It's a toy. Like a puppet.
Quote from: "the_antithesis"Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "the_antithesis"It's also a piss-poor way to decide on religious dogma. It's basically based on a whim. Your whim. So your god is basically you. It's like a G.I. Joe. You stole the old Canaanite war god from the last group that was raping it and made it your own Cobra Commander.
Sorry, I dont know much about GI Joe. I honestly do not know what you mean.
It's a toy. Like a puppet.
So I had a puppet that was getting assaulted by another puppet. I took the canaanite puppet and...transformed it into another cobra commander puppet?
This doesnt make sense to me.
Quote from: "Belial"So I had a puppet that was getting assaulted by another puppet. I took the canaanite puppet and...transformed it into another cobra commander puppet?
This doesnt make sense to me.
That´s the point he´s making.
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "Jmpty"So, it's a cafeteria style religion? Like a buffet? You just get to pick the things you like, and leave the rest?
Pretty much. Well, you choose amongst the better tasting flavor. If you have two interpretations and two understandings of what Islam is, you can freely choose amongst the options. You cant simply not choose any flavor, then you would be a non believer.
So it´s okay to think allah is a prick?
Quote from: "SHIN KAIRI"What kind of a christian would I be if I said no?
An honest one. The fact that you're not in jail already shows that you're not doing what the bible asks, because there's plenty of sinning that is punishable by death going on around you.
Quote from: "SHIN KAIRI"Please... if you don't want to become christians, at least become atheists; because they will have it far better than you during the tribulation.
Yeah,
the least you could do is become that second rate type of human who is an atheist, then you can work your way up to the right path which, as everyone knows, is following jésus.
Incidentally, do those virgins have to wear full Islamic dress when not being forced to have sex with some guy they don't know (I'm assuming the virgins don't get a say)?
Really, for a religion that professes to uphold magical morals on sexuality to preserve a women's chastity and prevent a man from raping everyone he sees not covered head to toe in a Saudi bed sheet, Islam sure is obsessed with a vaginas and hymens.
Like most religions, really.
Quote from: "SHIN KAIRI"Quote from: "aitm"curious question from a person who urges one to read the new testament FIRST. Typical of those embarrassed by the OT.
Not at all embarrassed by the OT. In fact, I firmly believe that someone who has limited knowledge on The OT will never fully understand the NT.
Without the foundation, everything crumbles.
And what is your knowledge of the OT?
It surprises me that someone who has more than "limited knowledge" of the OT, doesn't know what 'shin' means.
I was often wondering about these garments worn in Saudi Arabia and other hot countries, where the males are wearing white, light cotton robes letting the breeze through, and reflect the sunlight, quite comfortable I should think.
While females wearing heavier black robes (must not be revealing) and absorb the heat of the sun more, leading to all sorts of health problems.
Blocking out the sun leads to vitamin D deprivation, excessive sweating, building up bacteria, and highly uncomfortable as well.
Allah hates women.
Well, Allah seems to hate everything living really, as it is the complete psychological makeup of it's creator, the psychopathic, mentally deranged Muhammad.
Quote from: "Plu"Quote from: "SHIN KAIRI"What kind of a christian would I be if I said no?
The fact that you're not in jail already shows that you're not doing what the bible asks
Hhhhmmm not so sure about where you got that idea :/
Romans 13:1 Everyone is to obey the governing authorities. For there is no authority that is not from God, and the existing authorities have been placed where they are by God. 2 Therefore, whoever resists the authorities is resisting what God has instituted; and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are no terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you like to be unafraid of the person in authority? Then simply do what is good, and you will win his approval; 4 for he is God's servant, there for your benefit. But if you do what is wrong, be afraid! Because it is not for nothing that he holds the power of the sword; for he is God's servant, there as an avenger to punish wrongdoers. 5 Another reason to obey, besides fear of punishment, is for the sake of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes; for the authorities are God's public officials, constantly attending to these duties. 7 Pay everyone what he is owed: if you owe the tax-collector, pay your taxes; if you owe the revenue-collector, pay revenue; if you owe someone respect, pay him respect; if you owe someone honor, pay him honor. 8 Don't owe anyone anything — except to love one another; for whoever loves his fellow human being has fulfilled Torah. 9 For the commandments, "Don't commit adultery," "Don't murder," "Don't steal," "Don't covet,"[a] and any others are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does not do harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fullness of Torah.
So basically, the bible is a useless collection of literature, because you're not supposed to do what it says in there but what the government asks of you? That's an interesting take on things. Especially considering the bible and the government are in direct opposition on many subjects.
72 virgins! Not 59 or 83. Is 72 the ideal number of virgins a guy needs? I'd be pissed if I got to heaven and Allah had only given me 64. What?? Did some other creep end up with 8 of my virgins? I was promised 72, and I expect 72. I blew myself up in a suicide attack, and killed 50 men, women, and children, and I'm only getting 64 virgins?
The Book of Revelations gets obsessed with 7. There are 7 dragons, each with seven heads, and each head having 7 tongues of flame, and on an on in horrible things made worse when they come in sevens. But why 7? If the numbers varied among things, it wouldn't be as believable? But no, everything is sevens, and now it's like oooh, all scary and creepy.
You're walking down the road to Hell, and there's a dragon. Not to worry. It's just another stupid dragon. You've seen hundreds of dragons, right? But then you realize there are exactly 7 dragons, and now you're fucked, big time. You cry out, "Why? Why, God, does there have to be exactly 7 dragons?
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"So it´s okay to think allah is a prick?
Its ok to believe in what you believe. Nobody can control your beliefs, they are yours.
Quote from: "pr126"I was often wondering about these garments worn in Saudi Arabia and other hot countries, where the males are wearing white, light cotton robes letting the breeze through, and reflect the sunlight, quite comfortable I should think.
While females wearing heavier black robes (must not be revealing) and absorb the heat of the sun more, leading to all sorts of health problems.
Blocking out the sun leads to vitamin D deprivation, excessive sweating, building up bacteria, and highly uncomfortable as well.
Allah hates women.
Well, Allah seems to hate everything living really, as it is the complete psychological makeup of it's creator, the psychopathic, mentally deranged Muhammad.
Many muslims as well, would agree with just about anyone else that Saudi Arabia has a very oppressive government. This is another matter of some muslims believing X and others believing Y based on what they may be interpreting and how.
Even many within Saudi know theyre oppressed, but i suppose theyre in the minority. The govt rules with an iron fist.
In the US, there are, a very large number of christians, but what you find is, people arent being jailed for wearing mixed fabrics, right. This is because different christians view different ideas different ways within Christianity.
And again, just for clarity, many muslims do not believe in 72 virgins in heaven.
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "Jmpty"So, it's a cafeteria style religion? Like a buffet? You just get to pick the things you like, and leave the rest?
Pretty much. Well, you choose amongst the better tasting flavor. If you have two interpretations and two understandings of what Islam is, you can freely choose amongst the options. You cant simply not choose any flavor, then you would be a non believer.
So it´s okay to think allah is a prick?
It's not because it doesn't exist, but it's ok to think that Mohammad was a prick, because he was a child molesting warlord.
So it´s okay to think allah is a prick?[/quote]
It's not because it doesn't exist, but it's ok to think that Mohammad was a prick, because he was a child molesting warlord.[/quote]
Is that really necessary? This has been a pretty civil discourse up until now. If that's all you have to refute Islam, you should probably study a little more.
Quote from: "Jmpty"Is that really necessary?
Nothing I type here is necessary.
QuoteThis has been a pretty civil discourse up until now.
It's still civil. Mohammed was a child molesting warlord. It's a fact.
QuoteIf that's all you have to refute Islam, you should probably study a little more.
Yes, that' all I have; that the founder of the religion was a child molesting warlord. It may not be enough for you in your world of civil discourse, but it's enough for me to refute Islam.
Quote from: "sasuke"Quote from: "Jmpty"Is that really necessary?
Nothing I type here is necessary.
QuoteThis has been a pretty civil discourse up until now.
It's still civil. Mohammed was a child molesting warlord. It's a fact.
QuoteIf that's all you have to refute Islam, you should probably study a little more.
Yes, that' all I have; that the founder of the religion was a child molesting warlord. It may not be enough for you in your world of civil discourse, but it's enough for me to refute Islam.
I would assume this "Child Molesting" comment came from the marriage between Muhammad and Aisha.
This too, you will find many muslims who believe that, Aisha was not young upon their marriage. It is not considered fact amongst many muslims, so I cant imagine it could be considered a fact by you.
Also, thank you Jmpty, I was thinking the same thing.
Also, I'd just like to add, and I am not sure if anyone has noticed.
The original post asked about 72 virgins, and if any muslims could explain this.
I came here and posted a response stating that many muslims do not believe in the whole 72 virgin story, and yet, we see people continue to sit and ask about it or comment on it. Also we find people who resort to changing the subject toward child molestation.
You guys are supposed to be the ones who arent changing the goal post, as you often claim the theists are the ones who do.
Quote from: "SGOS"72 virgins! Not 59 or 83. Is 72 the ideal number of virgins a guy needs?
72 is maximum number of virgins one can have without them being able to form a union. Trust me when I tell you that you do NOT want to mess around with union virgins. [-X
I just edited the post above if anyone is interested. I added some more comments.
Quote from: "sasuke"Quote from: "Jmpty"Is that really necessary?
Nothing I type here is necessary.
QuoteThis has been a pretty civil discourse up until now.
It's still civil. Mohammed was a child molesting warlord. It's a fact.
QuoteIf that's all you have to refute Islam, you should probably study a little more.
Yes, that' all I have; that the founder of the religion was a child molesting warlord. It may not be enough for you in your world of civil discourse, but it's enough for me to refute Islam.
Did you form this opinion based upon your in depth study of history, and the religion of Islam, or are you just parroting what you read on the internet? People who spout opinions as facts merely reveal their ignorance. I am an atheist. I believe ALL religions are wrong in their belief in a supernatural deity. I can put forth what I believe based upon the beliefs themselves, without resorting to personal attacks on the follwers of these religions, or the figures involved in their origins. Perhaps you should read more books, as it would allow you to engage in discourse without appearing a fool.
Quote from: "Belial"I just edited the post above if anyone is interested. I added some more comments.
Please keep in mind not everyone here is atheist and the topic was created by a christian (hence the first few posts). Not everyone here is supposed to not move the goalposts :P
Quote from: "Belial"I would assume this "Child Molesting" comment came from the marriage between Muhammad and Aisha.
This too, you will find many muslims who believe that, Aisha was not young upon their marriage. It is not considered fact amongst many muslims, so I cant imagine it could be considered a fact by you.
Also, thank you Jmpty, I was thinking the same thing.
Also, I'd just like to add, and I am not sure if anyone has noticed.
The original post asked about 72 virgins, and if any muslims could explain this.
I came here and posted a response stating that many muslims do not believe in the whole 72 virgin story, and yet, we see people continue to sit and ask about it or comment on it. Also we find people who resort to changing the subject toward child molestation.
You guys are supposed to be the ones who arent changing the goal post, as you often claim the theists are the ones who do.
I believe you're a penguin, now how many people would have to believe you're a penguin before you go back to Antarctica? You are very for peoples beliefs overriding reality so you would have to accept the conclusion that you are a penguin.
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "Belial"I would assume this "Child Molesting" comment came from the marriage between Muhammad and Aisha.
This too, you will find many muslims who believe that, Aisha was not young upon their marriage. It is not considered fact amongst many muslims, so I cant imagine it could be considered a fact by you.
Also, thank you Jmpty, I was thinking the same thing.
Also, I'd just like to add, and I am not sure if anyone has noticed.
The original post asked about 72 virgins, and if any muslims could explain this.
I came here and posted a response stating that many muslims do not believe in the whole 72 virgin story, and yet, we see people continue to sit and ask about it or comment on it. Also we find people who resort to changing the subject toward child molestation.
You guys are supposed to be the ones who arent changing the goal post, as you often claim the theists are the ones who do.
I believe you're a penguin, now how many people would have to believe you're a penguin before you go back to Antarctica? You are very for peoples beliefs overriding reality so you would have to accept the conclusion that you are a penguin.
Perhaps you could speak in real terms, rather than analogies. I am honestly having trouble understanding what you mean.
A person is what they believe they are based on their understanding of themselves, and what it is they proclaim to be. No other person can judge that. The reality of christianity and Islam and really ideas that people share about all sorts of subjects, is that, these ideas have subjective interpretations surrounding them.
Right, so, If I took a quarter and threw it in the dirt, one person may say "or its dirty". Another may say, "its still pretty clean".
We both have ideas about what is factually existent. One person may think that X amount of dirt isnt truly dirty, so they may disregard it and say the coin is clean. While others may believe that the dirt is dirty, making the coin dirty.
People are capable of witnessing something, and differing on what that observation is.
This is the case with many many things in life, including Islam. Which is why you can have some muslims believe in 72 virgins and other muslims not.
You as an individual choose what you are based on your understanding of you and what it is you relate to, and no other person can rightfully call you a penguin or non penguin. Only you have the power to pass that judgement in regards to subjective matters on what you are.
Virgins are pretty dull in bed. Not sure why having to deal with 72 of them is a reward. How about 72 professional "escorts"? I might just blow myself up for that.
Quote from: "Jmpty"Did you form this opinion based upon your in depth study of history, and the religion of Islam, or are you just parroting what you read on the internet? People who spout opinions as facts merely reveal their ignorance. I am an atheist. I believe ALL religions are wrong in their belief in a supernatural deity. I can put forth what I believe based upon the beliefs themselves, without resorting to personal attacks on the follwers of these religions, or the figures involved in their origins. Perhaps you should read more books, as it would allow you to engage in discourse without appearing a fool.
Reading too many books can be dangerous because the authors of the books are usually extremely biased. Its very unlikely that you will ever get a full unbiased historical or factual account of anything so reading heaps of books will only increase your bias. Sure you'll have a lot of facts but you can make the mistake of thinking you're an expert on something because you read a few peoples opinions on the subject. Nothing prevents the books author from lying and making up most of his book either. Read peer-reviewed scientific literature if you want to engage people in discourse. When talking about religion or parts of history in any sort of definitive way you always appear the fool.
Quote from: "Belial"Perhaps you could speak in real terms, rather than analogies. I am honestly having trouble understanding what you mean.
Many mulsims believe Aisha was not young, therefore Aisha was not young. Age isn't a belief, you either know or don't know, you can't believe either way unless you are very dumb.
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "Belial"Perhaps you could speak in real terms, rather than analogies. I am honestly having trouble understanding what you mean.
Many mulsims believe Aisha was not young, therefore Aisha was not young. Age isn't a belief, you either know or don't know, you can't believe either way unless you are very dumb.
Many muslims believe Aisha was not young (because of X), therefore it is possible that she was not young (depending on how you interpret X). Age isnt a belief, but you can believe that Aisha was not young if you have reasons to believe this is the case.
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "Jmpty"Did you form this opinion based upon your in depth study of history, and the religion of Islam, or are you just parroting what you read on the internet? People who spout opinions as facts merely reveal their ignorance. I am an atheist. I believe ALL religions are wrong in their belief in a supernatural deity. I can put forth what I believe based upon the beliefs themselves, without resorting to personal attacks on the follwers of these religions, or the figures involved in their origins. Perhaps you should read more books, as it would allow you to engage in discourse without appearing a fool.
Reading too many books can be dangerous because the authors of the books are usually extremely biased. Its very unlikely that you will ever get a full unbiased historical or factual account of anything so reading heaps of books will only increase your bias. Sure you'll have a lot of facts but you can make the mistake of thinking you're an expert on something because you read a few peoples opinions on the subject. Nothing prevents the books author from lying and making up most of his book either. Read peer-reviewed scientific literature if you want to engage people in discourse. When talking about religion or parts of history in any sort of definitive way you always appear the fool.
:-k
Quote from: "Jmpty"Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "Jmpty"Did you form this opinion based upon your in depth study of history, and the religion of Islam, or are you just parroting what you read on the internet? People who spout opinions as facts merely reveal their ignorance. I am an atheist. I believe ALL religions are wrong in their belief in a supernatural deity. I can put forth what I believe based upon the beliefs themselves, without resorting to personal attacks on the follwers of these religions, or the figures involved in their origins. Perhaps you should read more books, as it would allow you to engage in discourse without appearing a fool.
Reading too many books can be dangerous because the authors of the books are usually extremely biased. Its very unlikely that you will ever get a full unbiased historical or factual account of anything so reading heaps of books will only increase your bias. Sure you'll have a lot of facts but you can make the mistake of thinking you're an expert on something because you read a few peoples opinions on the subject. Nothing prevents the books author from lying and making up most of his book either. Read peer-reviewed scientific literature if you want to engage people in discourse. When talking about religion or parts of history in any sort of definitive way you always appear the fool.
:-k
I don't understand the confusion, you can display incorrect facts as facts because you read them in a book thus think they are correct. You seem to think books are not allowed to be wrong.
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "Belial"Perhaps you could speak in real terms, rather than analogies. I am honestly having trouble understanding what you mean.
Many mulsims believe Aisha was not young, therefore Aisha was not young. Age isn't a belief, you either know or don't know, you can't believe either way unless you are very dumb.
Many muslims believe Aisha was not young (because of X), therefore it is possible that she was not young (depending on how you interpret X). Age isnt a belief, but you can believe that Aisha was not young if you have reasons to believe this is the case.
I believe you are a penguin, therefore it is possible that you are a penguin. I believe you're a penguin because you're parroting other people and you can't fly, so you're clearly a penguin.
Quote from: "Icarus"I believe you are a penguin, therefore it is possible that you are a penguin. I believe you're a penguin because you're parroting other people and you can't fly, so you're clearly a penguin.
now that there is some SERIOUS FUCKIN THINKIN... I do believe it is the best proof we have seen that Belial is a penquin
Reading too many books can be dangerous because the authors of the books are usually extremely biased. Its very unlikely that you will ever get a full unbiased historical or factual account of anything so reading heaps of books will only increase your bias. Sure you'll have a lot of facts but you can make the mistake of thinking you're an expert on something because you read a few peoples opinions on the subject. Nothing prevents the books author from lying and making up most of his book either. Read peer-reviewed scientific literature if you want to engage people in discourse. When talking about religion or parts of history in any sort of definitive way you always appear the fool.[/quote]
:-k[/quote]
I don't understand the confusion, you can display incorrect facts as facts because you read them in a book thus think they are correct. You seem to think books are not allowed to be wrong.[/quote]
Incorrect facts are not facts. If you choose to read Bill O'reilly's version of history, that's on you. Corroboration and credentials are key indicators to validity.
Quote from: "Jmpty"Incorrect facts are not facts. If you choose to read Bill O'reilly's version of history, that's on you. Corroboration and credentials are key indicators to validity.
No but the person presenting them is presenting them as facts. Validity comes from physical evidence and interpretation of that physical evidence. The interpretation can be flawed if all the physical evidence has not been gathered, and most of it is usually lost. So again, you are left with different biased opinions trying to fill in the gaps.
Quote from: "Icarus"I believe you are a penguin, therefore it is possible that you are a penguin. I believe you're a penguin because you're parroting other people and you can't fly, so you're clearly a penguin.
Ok, well, you will never be able to get an accurate response out of me if you keep speaking in analogies.
With that, I am not going to bother responding to this or further analogies, because quite frankly I dont even know what you are saying.
I do not understand the meaning, or purpose of this statement, nor do I see how it relates to 72 virgins in heaven.
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "Icarus"I believe you are a penguin, therefore it is possible that you are a penguin. I believe you're a penguin because you're parroting other people and you can't fly, so you're clearly a penguin.
Ok, well, you will never be able to get an accurate response out of me if you keep speaking in analogies.
With that, I am not going to bother responding to this or further analogies, because quite frankly I dont even know what you are saying.
I do not understand the meaning, or purpose of this statement, nor do I see how it relates to 72 virgins in heaven.
I'm using your own logic to prove you are a penguin, showing you exactly how flawed that logic is. I was not talking about the 72 virgins but the age of Aisha. If my analogies frustrate you think about how much your terrible logic frustrates anyone with an ounce of critical thinking.
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "Icarus"I believe you are a penguin, therefore it is possible that you are a penguin. I believe you're a penguin because you're parroting other people and you can't fly, so you're clearly a penguin.
Ok, well, you will never be able to get an accurate response out of me if you keep speaking in analogies.
With that, I am not going to bother responding to this or further analogies, because quite frankly I dont even know what you are saying.
I do not understand the meaning, or purpose of this statement, nor do I see how it relates to 72 virgins in heaven.
I'm using your own logic to prove you are a penguin, showing you exactly how flawed that logic is. I was not talking about the 72 virgins but the age of Aisha. If my analogies frustrate you think about how much your terrible logic frustrates anyone with an ounce of critical thinking.
How are you proving that I am a penguin just because you believe it is so?
I was under the impression the age was listed in the Qu'ran, was it not? If it isn't in there, Belial's argument might make some sense (depending on why the two interpretations exist, of course) but if the age is in the book then opposing it gets a little flimsy.
Making your own interpretations for a book that claims to be 100% true, and then using the fact that it's 100% true to justify the rest of it, is of course rather silly on its own, but that seems a second issue.
Quote from: "Belial"How are you proving that I am a penguin just because you believe it is so?
You said if someone believes in something that makes it possible. I believe you are a penguin and offered that fact that you parrot other people and can't fly as reasons to back up my belief. I think you may be in over your head and should probably take a step back to reevaluate how you look at information so you can start being able to distinguish between fact and human imagination.
Quote from: "Plu"I was under the impression the age was listed in the Qu'ran, was it not? If it isn't in there, Belial's argument might make some sense (depending on why the two interpretations exist, of course) but if the age is in the book then opposing it gets a little flimsy.
Making your own interpretations for a book that claims to be 100% true, and then using the fact that it's 100% true to justify the rest of it, is of course rather silly on its own, but that seems a second issue.
Well, that is something I would suggest to the original poster. I agree though. They are making it easy for me.
Quote from: "Icarus"Quote from: "Belial"How are you proving that I am a penguin just because you believe it is so?
You said if someone believes in something that makes it possible. I believe you are a penguin and offered that fact that you parrot other people and can't fly as reasons to back up my belief. I think you may be in over your head and should probably take a step back to reevaluate how you look at information so you can start being able to distinguish between fact and human imagination.
Would you like to answer my question?
I asked "How are you proving that I am a penguin just because you believe it is so?".
You havent answered.
If people believe in something, to them it is possible, not to everyone. If I believed the sun was made of water, it may appear possible to me, but not to everyone. Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility that the sun is made of water.
Though, you can make a note, that I never said it did, and if I had, I apologize, I meant what I just said here, now.
If you are simply suggesting that our interpretations do not equate to reality, then I agree.
Honestly though, I still do not know what point you are trying to reach with your penguin analogies.
Quote from: "Jmpty"Did you form this opinion based upon your in depth study of history, and the religion of Islam, or are you just parroting what you read on the internet? People who spout opinions as facts merely reveal their ignorance. I am an atheist. I believe ALL religions are wrong in their belief in a supernatural deity. I can put forth what I believe based upon the beliefs themselves, without resorting to personal attacks on the follwers of these religions, or the figures involved in their origins. Perhaps you should read more books, as it would allow you to engage in discourse without appearing a fool.
Who was personally attacked? Muhammad the pedophile? I don't think that he will mind. Too bad for his followers if the truth offends them. I can put forth a logical argument as to why Islam is false without insulting Mohammad the pedophile warlord, but I don't want or intend to do it any time soon.
If you believe in the Bukhari Hadith, as many Muslims do, then you know that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with Aisha when she was nine years old.
I formed this opinion based on the fact that nobody, including Muslims, have ever denied that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with a nine year old.
Keep replying to me. It will just give me an excuse to remind people about the fact that Mohammad was a pedophile warlord.
People reading this thread should start a drinking game. Every time I mention 'Mohammad the pedophile warlord', they should take a shot.
You know, I was reading a bit of Wikipedia on the topic:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Marriage_to_Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Marriage_to_Muhammad))
And two things become pretty clear when you read the text:
1) it seems pretty clear she was 10 at most (especially the references like "He would often just sit and watch her and her friends play with dolls, and on occasion he would even join them." seem very peculiar if she's supposed to be older)
2) the guy was obviously just making it up as he went. He happened to get "revelations from god" just on the very moment after something happened he didn't agree with, and it always turned out that god agreed with his views.
Oh, and there's plenty of sources in the article if anyone wants to trace them :) It seems trustworthy enough.
Have some quotes:
[spoil:3r2658tu]
QuoteThere are also various traditions that reveal the mutual affection between Muhammad and Aisha. He would often just sit and watch her and her friends play with dolls, and on occasion he would even join them.
QuoteThe story of accusation of adultery levied against Aisha can be traced to chapter 24 in the book al-Nur in the Quran. [snip] The accusations of adultery came from Zainab, who levied the charges against Aisha and Safwan while at the same time Abdullah bin Ubai and Hamna bint Jahsh (Zainab's sister) spread the rumors started about the infidelity. Usama bin Zayd, son of Zayd ibn Harithah, defended Aisha's reputation and Muhammad came to speak directly with Aisha about the rumors. Shortly after this, Muhammad announced that he had received a revelation from God confirming Aisha's innocence. Known as the Surah an-Nur, God had revealed to Muhammad the laws and punishment regarding adultery. Aisha's accusers faced punishments of up to 80 lashes.
QuoteAfter the daily Asr prayer, Muhammad would visit each of his wives' apartments to inquire about their well-being. Muhammad was just in the amount of time he spent with them and attention he gave to them. Once Muhammad's fifth wife, Zaynab bint Jahsh, received some honey from a relative which The Prophet took a particular liking to. As a result, every time Zaynab offered some of this honey to him he would spend a longer time in her apartment. This did not sit well with Aisha and Hafsa bint Umar who felt impatient in waiting for their visit from Muhammad, and so they hatched a plan which was later revisited by Aisha. "So Hafsa and I agreed secretly that, if he come to either of us, she would say to him: It seems you have eaten Maghafir (a kind of bad-smelling resin), for I smell in you the smell of Maghafir. We did so and he replied No, but I was drinking honey in the house of Zaynab, the daughter of Jahsh, and I shall never take it again. I have taken an oath as to that, and you should not tell anybody about it". Soon after this event, Muhammad reported that he had received a revelation, in which he was told that he could eat anything permitted by God.
[/spoil:3r2658tu]
Quote from: "sasuke"If you believe in the Bukhari Hadith, as many Muslims do, then you know that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with Aisha when she was nine years old.
Well, there are many muslims who do not believe in the Bukhari hadith.
So now what?
Also you will find mixes of the two views, in that, even upon marriage, intercourse was not permitted until later years. Assuming the discussion revolves around sex, rather than the marriage itself.
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "Bibliofagus"So it´s okay to think allah is a prick?
Its ok to believe in what you believe. Nobody can control your beliefs, they are yours.
So it's okay for muslims to reject allah?
Quote from: "Belial"Would you like to answer my question?
I asked "How are you proving that I am a penguin just because you believe it is so?".
You havent answered.
If people believe in something, to them it is possible, not to everyone. If I believed the sun was made of water, it may appear possible to me, but not to everyone. Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility that the sun is made of water.
Though, you can make a note, that I never said it did, and if I had, I apologize, I meant what I just said here, now.
If you are simply suggesting that our interpretations do not equate to reality, then I agree.
Honestly though, I still do not know what point you are trying to reach with your penguin analogies.
I actually answered your question twice, do you need me to highlight it for you? Add some stars and pretty colours? I've already answered the point of the penguin analogies as well. Refer to my last post. If you agree that our interpretations do not equate to reality than why did you say that many muslims believe Aisha was not young, therefore it is possible Aisha was not young?
Quote from: "Icarus"Refer to my last post. If you agree that our interpretations do not equate to reality than why did you say that many muslims believe Aisha was not young, therefore it is possible Aisha was not young?
Ill add one part of my last post here to assist.
"If people believe in something, to them it is possible, not to everyone. If I believed the sun was made of water, it may appear possible to me, but not to everyone. Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility that the sun is made of water.
Though, you can make a note, that I never said it did, and if I had, I apologize, I meant what I just said here, now.
"
Interpretations do not equate to reality, and many muslims do believe that Aisha was not young. This is a fact.
You are asking why I have said this. I have said this, because both are true statements.
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"So it's okay for muslims to reject allah?
If you rejected Allah, then you would be rejecting basically the central tenet that defines Islam. Maybe in your mind, you could do this :P, i dont know if anyone would agree, but yes you are free to believe what you want.
Thats a cool question btw, i like that.
There are muslims who do reject Allah and ultimately come to claim themselves as apostates. So it is certainly a possibility. To claim you are still muslim after becoming a non believer, seems odd, but i suppose someone who views Islam in a specific way, and views Allah in a specific way, may be able to do this.
That would be quite the intellectual challenge.
Quote from: "Belial"Ill add one part of my last post here to assist.
"If people believe in something, to them it is possible, not to everyone.
You're confusing "possible" with "believable". "Possible" has nothing to do with belief.
QuoteIf I believed the sun was made of water, it may appear possible to me
It may appear possible to you, but it's still not actually possible.
QuoteAlso, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility
Which contradicts what you said above. Either it
is "physically and realistically a possibility" (another way of saying "is possible") or it's not. It can't be possible but not physically and realistically a possibility at the same time.
QuoteInterpretations do not equate to reality
But "possible" does.
QuoteYou are asking why I have said this. I have said this, because both are true statements.
Two contradictory statements can't both be true under the same conditions.
Quote"Possible" has nothing to do with belief.
Thats what I said. To people, something may appear possible, doesnt mean it is, though it may be.
I guess ill reiterate again.
"If people believe in something, to them it is possible, not to everyone. If I believed the sun was made of water, it may appear possible to me, but not to everyone. Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility that the sun is made of water.
Though, you can make a note, that I never said it did, and if I had, I apologize, I meant what I just said here, now.
"
QuoteIt may appear possible to you, but it's still not actually possible.
It may be, depending on what the belief is. If i believe the sun consists of hydrogen, my belief could certainly be possible.
QuoteA Either it is "physically and realistically a possibility" (another way of saying "is possible") or it's not. It can't be possible but not physically and realistically a possibility at the same time.
Yea...
QuoteBut "possible" does.
Yea...
QuoteTwo contradictory statements can't both be true under the same conditions.
How do the two contract eachother?
"Interpretations do not equate to reality, and many muslims do believe that Aisha was not young."
How do these two things contradict eachother?
A."Interpretations do not equate to reality"
We seem to both agree on A.
B. "many muslims do believe that Aisha was not young"
In regards to B, this is a known fact. You could go fly to the middle east right now and start asking muslims, and you would find muslims who do not believe she was young upon marriage.
So where is the contradiction?
Quote from: "sasuke"Quote from: "Jmpty"Did you form this opinion based upon your in depth study of history, and the religion of Islam, or are you just parroting what you read on the internet? People who spout opinions as facts merely reveal their ignorance. I am an atheist. I believe ALL religions are wrong in their belief in a supernatural deity. I can put forth what I believe based upon the beliefs themselves, without resorting to personal attacks on the follwers of these religions, or the figures involved in their origins. Perhaps you should read more books, as it would allow you to engage in discourse without appearing a fool.
Who was personally attacked? Muhammad the pedophile? I don't think that he will mind. Too bad for his followers if the truth offends them. I can put forth a logical argument as to why Islam is false without insulting Mohammad the pedophile warlord, but I don't want or intend to do it any time soon.
If you believe in the Bukhari Hadith, as many Muslims do, then you know that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with Aisha when she was nine years old.
I formed this opinion based on the fact that nobody, including Muslims, have ever denied that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with a nine year old.
Keep replying to me. It will just give me an excuse to remind people about the fact that Mohammad was a pedophile warlord.
People reading this thread should start a drinking game. Every time I mention 'Mohammad the pedophile warlord', they should take a shot.
You sound like an evangelical christian, attempting do differentiate his religion from Islam by the only means at his disposal, knowing full well the culture and social morals of the time. Or maybe you don't, so you'll have to refer to that pesky reading thing again. It's comments like yours that give atheism a bad name, if you indeed are an atheist. If you are a christian, well, keep up the good work.
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "Bibliofagus"So it's okay for muslims to reject allah?
If you rejected Allah, then you would be rejecting basically the central tenet that defines Islam. Maybe in your mind, you could do this :P
I would have no problem doing just that, probably I wouldn't even be able to help doing it. The gods described in the bible and quran are deeply immoral, and if I believed they were real I would at least want to oppose them. And maybe I would.
Quote from: "Belial"i dont know if anyone would agree, but yes you are free to believe what you want.
Thats a cool question btw, i like that.
Thank you. I like your answer as well. It's not often we get a theist here who appears to understand what is being said to him. Most are... let's say...
No matter.
I have another question. Is there any characteristic allah could have that you disapprove of? Maybe even strong enough to want to oppose him?
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "sasuke"If you believe in the Bukhari Hadith, as many Muslims do, then you know that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with Aisha when she was nine years old.
Well, there are many muslims who do not believe in the Bukhari hadith.
So now what?
Also you will find mixes of the two views, in that, even upon marriage, intercourse was not permitted until later years. Assuming the discussion revolves around sex, rather than the marriage itself.
The marriage itself happened at 6 or 7 tops. The Bukhari texts are clear on when the sex happened. Bukhari is considered a traditional source in Islam. You're the one who has to justify as to why you don't believe in it.
Quote from: "Jmpty"Quote from: "sasuke"Quote from: "Jmpty"Did you form this opinion based upon your in depth study of history, and the religion of Islam, or are you just parroting what you read on the internet? People who spout opinions as facts merely reveal their ignorance. I am an atheist. I believe ALL religions are wrong in their belief in a supernatural deity. I can put forth what I believe based upon the beliefs themselves, without resorting to personal attacks on the follwers of these religions, or the figures involved in their origins. Perhaps you should read more books, as it would allow you to engage in discourse without appearing a fool.
Who was personally attacked? Muhammad the pedophile? I don't think that he will mind. Too bad for his followers if the truth offends them. I can put forth a logical argument as to why Islam is false without insulting Mohammad the pedophile warlord, but I don't want or intend to do it any time soon.
If you believe in the Bukhari Hadith, as many Muslims do, then you know that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with Aisha when she was nine years old.
I formed this opinion based on the fact that nobody, including Muslims, have ever denied that Mohammad the pedophile warlord slept with a nine year old.
Keep replying to me. It will just give me an excuse to remind people about the fact that Mohammad was a pedophile warlord.
People reading this thread should start a drinking game. Every time I mention 'Mohammad the pedophile warlord', they should take a shot.
You sound like an evangelical christian, attempting do differentiate his religion from Islam by the only means at his disposal, knowing full well the culture and social morals of the time.
Wow, I've never heard that one before. I judge him by today's standards.
QuoteOr maybe you don't, so you'll have to refer to that pesky reading thing again. It's comments like yours that give atheism a bad name, if you indeed are an atheist. If you are a christian, well, keep up the good work.
My atheism has nothing to do with giving atheists anything. Neither a bad or a good name. My atheism has to do with not believing in gods. Nothing else can be inferred from it.
By the way, Muhammad was a pedophile warlord.
Quote from: "sasuke"The marriage itself happened at 6 or 7 tops. The Bukhari texts are clear on when the sex happened. Bukhari is considered a traditional source in Islam. You're the one who has to justify as to why you don't believe in it.
Bukhari is not considered a transitional "credible" source in Islam to all muslims. So you cant really use that to forge an argument.
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "sasuke"The marriage itself happened at 6 or 7 tops. The Bukhari texts are clear on when the sex happened. Bukhari is considered a traditional source in Islam. You're the one who has to justify as to why you don't believe in it.
Bukhari is not considered a transitional "credible" source in Islam to all muslims. So you cant really use that to forge an argument.
Maybe he's not Sunni, which is the only sect that views the Bukharis as you describe. More lernin' for you, I'm afraid.
.
You sound like an evangelical christian, attempting do differentiate his religion from Islam by the only means at his disposal, knowing full well the culture and social morals of the time.[/quote]
Wow, I've never heard that one before. I judge him by today's standards.
QuoteOr maybe you don't, so you'll have to refer to that pesky reading thing again. It's comments like yours that give atheism a bad name, if you indeed are an atheist. If you are a christian, well, keep up the good work.
My atheism has nothing to do with giving atheists anything. Neither a bad or a good name. My atheism has to do with not believing in gods. Nothing else can be inferred from it.
By the way, Muhammad was a pedophile warlord.[/quote]
See, ah, that doesn't really work, as mores and customs have changed quite a bit. Do you judge your own ancestors by the same standard?
I think what the whole discussion about what people believe and what is possible comes down to is simply this:
The muslims who believe aisha was not young can believe it with all their heart, the only it makes them, is wrong.
Does that solve it? To many skeptics here, "being wrong" is a problematic experience, but to many theists, the goal is to believe something that makes them all fuzzy inside, not to believe something that is factually correct. They'll just continue to believe something factually incorrect to be true, and they'll not see the problem with that at all.
Quote from: "Jmpty"See, ah, that doesn't really work, as mores and customs have changed quite a bit. Do you judge your own ancestors by the same standard?
No, but my ancestors weren't chosen by Allah to be his prophets, and they aren't considered to be a role models for their followers. The prophet of Allah should have known better.
You can believe Aisha was, or was not, a child bride. You can believe Mary was a virgin. It really changes nothing.
Quote from: "Plu"I think what the whole discussion about what people believe and what is possible comes down to is simply this:
The muslims who believe aisha was not young can believe it with all their heart, the only it makes them, is wrong.
They'll just continue to believe something factually incorrect to be true, and they'll not see the problem with that at all.
Maybe the muslims who do not believe Aisha was young, are correct. How would you know?
QuoteMaybe the muslims who do not believe Aisha was young, are correct. How would you know?
Thing is, if they are correct, they're also wrong about everything else because that would mean the Qu'ran contains errors, which means it's no longer the infallible word of god, which means that everything else they believe in suddenly falls apart. The Qu'ran is supposed to be without error. It says she was 9 or 10.
That means either she was 9 or 10, or there are errors in the book. Thus, believing anything except her being 9 or 10 means you're basically admitting that the Qu'ran is fallible and contains errors.
I've actually been with a virgin. 72 of those would be nothing like heaven. In my Quran, it would read more like "If you sin, you will be forced to live for eternity with 72 virgins."
Quote from: "Plu"Thing is, if they are correct, they're also wrong about everything else because that would mean the Qu'ran contains errors, which means it's no longer the infallible word of god, which means that everything else they believe in suddenly falls apart. The Qu'ran is supposed to be without error. It says she was 9 or 10.
That means either she was 9 or 10, or there are errors in the book. Thus, believing anything except her being 9 or 10 means you're basically admitting that the Qu'ran is fallible and contains errors.
The Quran doesnt speak about Aishas age. :popcorn: This discussion really doesnt have anything to do with the Quran.
Id suggest some of you guys, but certainly not all, go do some reading, and come back when you have a real argument.
Quote from: "Belial"Quote"Possible" has nothing to do with belief.
Thats what I said.
No, you said, "If people believe in something, to them it is possible", which says that "possible" is determined by belief.
QuoteTo people, something may appear possible, doesnt mean it is, though it may be.
No, you said "is possible", not "may appear to be possible", which is a totally different thing. Something can appear to be possible to a particular person, but it's either possible or not, regardless of whether someone believes that it's possible or not. "Is possible" doesn't depend on whether someone believes it is, and it's not changed by someone's belief.
Quote"If people believe in something, to them it is possible
Which is exactly the opposite of "may appear to be possible".
QuoteQuoteIt may appear possible to you, but it's still not actually possible.
It may be, depending on what the belief is.
Of course - one may believe something that's true. But you claimed (although it may not be what you meant) that if someone believes something, it's possible. Yet, as you also said, believing that the sun is water doesn't make the sun water. (Yet your original assertion is that believing that the sun is water would make it be possible for the sun to be water - which it's not.)
QuoteIf i believe the sun consists of hydrogen, my belief could certainly be possible.
Yes - but believing that it's water certainly doesn't make it possible for the sun to be water, which your original assertion says it does, to the person holding that belief. It makes it believable to that person, it doesn't make it possible.
QuoteQuoteA Either it is "physically and realistically a possibility" (another way of saying "is possible") or it's not. It can't be possible but not physically and realistically a possibility at the same time.
Yea...
QuoteBut "possible" does.
Yea...
QuoteTwo contradictory statements can't both be true under the same conditions.
How do the two contract eachother?
"Is possible" and "isn't physically and realistically a possibility" are contradictory, since "is possible" and "is physically and realistically a possibility" are the same thing and "a thing" and "not that thing" are contradictory.
Quote"Interpretations do not equate to reality, and many muslims do believe that Aisha was not young."
"Is possible" isn't an interpretation, it's a statement of fact. Whether they believe that she was not young has nothing to do with whether she actually was not young. (Of course it's possible - and true - that at one time she was young and at another time she was not young. But their belief that at the time Mohammed first had sex with her she was not young has absolutely nothing to do with how old she was when he first had sex with her. Or with whether it's possible that he had sex with her when she was young - which, of course, it is.)
QuoteSo where is the contradiction?
The difference between "is possible" and "I believe" seems to escape you. "Possible" doesn't have anything to do with belief, it's a statement of fact. Whether anyone believes that the moon is made of green cheese, it's not possible. It can't "be possible" to the person who believes it, it's either possible or it's not, and that's determined by reality, not by someone's belief. Whether someone believes a thing to be true has nothing to do with whether it
is true. Even if everyone believed that the world is flat, it wouldn't be true. Not in reality and not "to them".
Ah. Too many books and hear-say and semi-historic crap interwoven then. Never mind previous argument.
I suppose they're just wrong due to complete lack of evidence for their position, then.
editQuoteId suggest some of you guys, but certainly not all, go do some reading, and come back when you have a real argument.
A real argument about what? I'm not really trying to present any major arguments, just trying to have a bit of discussion and learning some new things. I could create an argument if that makes you happy, but it wouldn't be nearly as in-depth as what's going on here, because there's absolutely no need to.
Quote from: "Colanth"No, you said, "If people believe in something, to them it is possible", which says that "possible" is determined by belief.
For the fourth time.
"If people believe in something, to them it is possible, not to everyone. If I believed the sun was made of water, it may appear possible to me, but not to everyone. Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility that the sun is made of water.
Though, you can make a note, that I never said it did, and if I had, I apologize, I meant what I just said here, now.
"
I said, "possible to them". Then after that I said "may appear possible to me".
Then after that I said
" Also, my belief doesn't make it physically and realistically a possibility that the sun is made of water.
Though, you can make a note, that I never said it did, and if I had, I apologize, I meant what I just said here, now."
then I said "To people, something may appear possible, doesnt mean it is, though it may be."
Perhaps you lack the capability to understand what I am saying to you.
----------------------------------------------
What I am saying is, things may appear to be possible to some people, however, that doesnt mean they are.
wait wait, let me just copy what ive already said
"To people, something may appear possible, doesnt mean it is, though it may be."
wait wait...hold on, just in case.
Things that are real in this world, are not always exactly as people believe them to be.
Do you understand now?
My lord you are stubborn hahaha
Yes, my very first statement sounded as if I said, belief=to reality.
After that, I not only apologized for any misinterpretation, but i must have stated about 10 times now that belief does not equate to reality.
OK, I am going to move on to the next point of the discussion now. I am going to assume that you now understand what I mean.
Well, i guess there is no other point because thats all you have been trying to argue for the last 10 posts. A point which I agree on that belief is not the same thing as fact.
good job. =D>
It is such a good conclusion, that it is as if I didnt just repeat it myself hahaha
So now that we have established that belief and reality are not the same thing,
What is your actual argument?
Here are some facts, that do not contradict eachother.
Belief, does not equate to reality.
There are muslims who believe that Aisha was older and at a mature age upon marriage.
Here is another true statement....
There are muslims who do not believe in the whole 72 virgins in heaven idea.
That ought to clear up just about all of the misconceptions amongst people in this room.
Quote from: "SHIN KAIRI"Any muslims here? I've always wondered... do you really believe, no, I mean do you really believe that once in Paradise you will have 72 virgins(we don't know which sex btw...) waiting for you there? Is that Paradise for you? Nothing else? What do the women get then? Nothing? Is that all your "god" can offer his followers? Not to mention the obscenity of that gift.
Please... if you don't want to become christians, at least become atheists; because they will have it far better than you during the tribulation.
Tribulation? For real, dude?
Quote from: "Sleeper"Quote from: "SHIN KAIRI"Any muslims here? I've always wondered... do you really believe, no, I mean do you really believe that once in Paradise you will have 72 virgins(we don't know which sex btw...) waiting for you there? Is that Paradise for you? Nothing else? What do the women get then? Nothing? Is that all your "god" can offer his followers? Not to mention the obscenity of that gift.
Please... if you don't want to become christians, at least become atheists; because they will have it far better than you during the tribulation.
Tribulation? For real, dude?
:rollin:
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "Colanth"No, you said, "If people believe in something, to them it is possible", which says that "possible" is determined by belief.
For the fourth time.
"If people believe in something, to them it is possible
And for the fourth time, that's incorrect. Stop conflating "possible" and "believed".
QuoteThings that are real in this world, are not always exactly as people believe them to be.
Do you understand now?
That you don't understand the difference between "possible" and "believed"? Yes. "Real in this world" relates to "possible", "people believe" doesn't. Something that's not possible is not possible no matter how many people believe that it is.
Quote from: "Belial"There are muslims who believe that Aisha was older and at a mature age upon marriage.
So what? If she wasn't, they're wrong. (And if they're right the Koran is wrong.)
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "Belial"There are muslims who believe that Aisha was older and at a mature age upon marriage.
So what? If she wasn't, they're wrong. (And if they're right the Koran is wrong.)
How so?
Good job quote mining btw, you know what I meant based on the 100 other things i said around it. Just take the one little fragment of a statement, and ignore all the rest so you can make an argument hahaha. :popcorn:
I already know that some people in this discussion understand what is going on here.
Ill just twiddle my thumbs and eat my popcorn until you figure it out. :popcorn:
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "Belial"There are muslims who believe that Aisha was older and at a mature age upon marriage.
So what? If she wasn't, they're wrong. (And if they're right the Koran is wrong.)
How so?
As in 2 contradictory claims can't both be true.
QuoteGood job quote mining btw, you know what I meant based on the 100 other things i said around it.
Making a false assertion, then claiming that you didn't mean what you claimed, doesn't go over very well here.
Quote from: "Belial"Here are some facts, that do not contradict eachother.
Belief, does not equate to reality.
There are muslims who believe that Aisha was older and at a mature age upon marriage.
Here is another true statement....
There are muslims who do not believe in the whole 72 virgins in heaven idea.
That ought to clear up just about all of the misconceptions amongst people in this room.
The sunni/salafi/sufi muslims are the majority, they follow the Bukhari hadith,Bukhari is considered very reliable on the sunni side of Islam.
Yes you are correct there is nothing about Aisha's age in the Quran, there is nothing about stoning to death for adultery in the Quran either yet muslims still insist it is the prescribed punishment despite no mention of it in the quran.
QuoteNarrated Aisha-
The prophet married her when she was 6 years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for 9 years until his death.
//http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/67/69
72 is the maximum number of houris a muslim could win, not every muslim will receive the full serve of houris.
the quran doesn't speak of aishas age, so how can it contradict a muslim who believes she is young or old?
I'll drop the childish he said she said game.
I can see while there are some intelligent atheists, clearly there are the primitive archaic sapiens that roam these forums as well.
and, for baronfonvort. That is all fine and well. If you want to argue sunni hadith, then sunnis may be the proper people to direct an argument toward.
QuoteI can see while there are some intelligent atheists, clearly there are the primitive archaic sapiens that roam these forums as well.
At least you understand our common heritage :) That puts you in a higher category than many.
So, do you have a story to tell on why you believe? You've discussed a lot but we've no real idea what your view point on the whole affair is as far as I know.
Quote from: "Belial"I can see while there are some intelligent atheists, clearly there are the primitive archaic sapiens that roam these forums as well.
One needn't bring a bazooka to a knife fight, especially when the blade of the opponent's knife is broken.
Is there any possible characteristic allah could have that you would disapprove of?
The problem is that some Muslims do follow the prophet's example (Quran 33:21) and still marry children in the 21st century.
When Ayatollah Khomeini came to power in Iran, he reduced the marrying age of females to 9 years. He himself married a 10 year old child.
Consequenses (//http://womenagainstshariah.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/muslim-cleric-arrested-over-child-bride.html)
Quote from: "Bibliofagus"Is there any possible characteristic allah could have that you would disapprove of?
Being an atheist?
why was my cool amoeba taken away? :P I have some weird alien looking guy now.
Oh i have it back now nvm.
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "Belial"I can see while there are some intelligent atheists, clearly there are the primitive archaic sapiens that roam these forums as well.
One needn't bring a bazooka to a knife fight, especially when the blade of the opponent's knife is broken.
Maybe you are right.
Quote from: "Belial"why was my cool amoeba taken away? :P I have some weird alien looking guy now.
Oh i have it back now nvm.
When you have 42 posts you get Marvin, the robot from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. I was so tempted to stop posting when that came up and keep Marvin forever.
Quote from: "NitzWalsh"Quote from: "Belial"why was my cool amoeba taken away? :P I have some weird alien looking guy now.
Oh i have it back now nvm.
When you have 42 posts you get Marvin, the robot from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. I was so tempted to stop posting when that came up and keep Marvin forever.
haha, why 42?
Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "NitzWalsh"Quote from: "Belial"why was my cool amoeba taken away? :P I have some weird alien looking guy now.
Oh i have it back now nvm.
When you have 42 posts you get Marvin, the robot from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. I was so tempted to stop posting when that came up and keep Marvin forever.
haha, why 42?
You'll have to read the book. :wink:
Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"Quote from: "Bibliofagus"Is there any possible characteristic allah could have that you would disapprove of?
Being an atheist?
:lol:
Quote from: "Jmpty"Quote from: "Belial"Quote from: "NitzWalsh"When you have 42 posts you get Marvin, the robot from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. I was so tempted to stop posting when that came up and keep Marvin forever.
haha, why 42?
You'll have to read the book. :wink:
If you're accustomed to meaningless answers to deep and big questions, you'll love it!
Quote from: "Plu"If you're accustomed to meaningless answers to deep and big questions, you'll love it!
He is Muslim, so he must be.
"He is Muslim, so he must be."
Ill be nice and edit the post here.
I show up here, not knowing what to expect. I end finding consistent comments about a number of things. You have people thinking that the Quran speaks of 72 virgins, or aishas age.
You have people just assuming that all muslims follow bukhari.
You have one guy who sits around arguing against a chosen statement rather than a plethora of comments.
You have some random guy tagging in smart comments like the one quoted at the top.
Its a single topic, an introduction to atheistforums.com, and what I find are a bunch of arrogant fools. Some are ignorant, some are just childish. While I am sure not all of you are, it is quite clear that some are, and it doesnt take a theist to see this either.
I have consistently heard other theists say that atheists are often rude, and this forum just suits the stereotype.
Aint nobody got time fo dat.
Id recommend a lot of you guys go do some reading like the one atheit said. Some of you could use it, and that is the truth and likely the most valuable lesson of this topic.
feeamanillah.
Ciao!
Quote from: "Belial"I can see why theists never come to these forums. You guys are a bunch of assholes. :popcorn: On that note, i suppose ill be on my way.
Some of u are complete dumbasses too haha.
You will be missed... not.
Good Riddance.
I think I insulted him.
Quote from: "NitzWalsh"I think I insulted him.
Yeah, you're such a meanie... :rollin:
Quote from: "Belial"I have consistently heard other theists say that atheists are often rude, and this forum just suits the stereotype.
Aint nobody got time fo dat.
Id recommend a lot of you guys go do some reading like the one atheit said. Some of you could use it, and that is the truth and likely the most valuable lesson of this topic.
feeamanillah.
You'd be rude too if you had yet another theist coming in, generally lying and presenting opinion and feelings as facts. The reason that most theists tend to find us rude is because they come in with some outrageous lie, and then get upset when it's pointed out to them. They then get frustrated when they don't understand the explanation they are given, and they see us as being unpleasant to them. They then take that frustration out as anger against atheists.
Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "Belial"I have consistently heard other theists say that atheists are often rude, and this forum just suits the stereotype.
Aint nobody got time fo dat.
Id recommend a lot of you guys go do some reading like the one atheit said. Some of you could use it, and that is the truth and likely the most valuable lesson of this topic.
feeamanillah.
You'd be rude too if you had yet another theist coming in, generally lying and presenting opinion and feelings as facts. The reason that most theists tend to find us rude is because they come in with some outrageous lie, and then get upset when it's pointed out to them. They then get frustrated when they don't understand the explanation they are given, and they see us as being unpleasant to them. They then take that frustration out as anger against atheists.
Well, on the bright side, at least he's possibly got 72 virgins waiting for him when he dies.
Ah, I see he edited his post after my rather short farewell.
Yeah, you probably didn't receive the warmest welcome. (and had you started in another thread, it might have been warmer, since this one was started by the troll of the week)
That said; you aren't treated all that different from all the regulars. We can be quite rude to one another as well in discussions. Part of the atmosphere. Smart-ass remarks are made to everyone. If you can't take that, sucks to be you, but this is not the place for you.
Also, the consistent posting a 3 word post and then coming back later and editing it make you impossible to follow. This discussion would've been completely different had you posted the current version of posts first instead of making a short snipe, waiting for responses, and then coming back in to make a reasonable post with the same stretch.
Quote from: "Belial"blabla meany atheists :( I'm gonna go all crybaby now and leave you!!!! (nono Not because of all of you, just the more impolite ones whom I put all my efforts into because I knew all along wanted to leave here feeling superior.
It's always nice to know my efforts to be friendly and interested were not wasted at all. Thank you.
well if you are a really big pervert this can be a dream for you.
But you must be also really stupid to believe in this shit
Is that really 72 virgins? Or does the "72" in Islam refer to the maximum IQ you can have and still believe this crap?
Quote from: "Belial"and, for baronfonvort. That is all fine and well. If you want to argue sunni hadith, then sunnis may be the proper people to direct an argument toward.
The sunni's say the shia hadith is unreliable they say Bukhari is the best.
I have heard salafis say the shiite are not even muslims they are shiites, they have even said Iran is not a muslim country it is a shiite country.
Lots of disagreements between sunni and shia how could that happen if allah perfected Islam?
For any of those 72 virgins suffering the same oppression under the Teliban on women's rights, now that would be the ultimate punishment for an eternity. That would be their hell.
For what its worth, some scholars studying the earliest manuscripts believe that the verse about 72 virgins actually originally said grapes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/04/opini ... rapes.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/04/opinion/martyrs-virgins-and-grapes.html)