Okay so everyone is aware of the recent surge of Islamic articles on the forum. Nothing new there to be honest, just another religion that stands for everything that we stand against. In that regard they're not that different from Catholics where they think we are the worst types of people, atheists. Atheists who must be destroyed at worst or shunned at best.
We all know that.
Only now I'm seeing a thing where anti Islam is being seen not as atheistic thing and more like an "islamophobic" thing. I'm also seeing a surge of articles that show pity towards Muslims and sarcasm that says that Muslims are not as bad as they say and we should not treat them bad. And western apologies and anti western rhetoric
Okay so here's the thing
We are atheists. We are not religious. Muslims and Catholics and Christians and Jews all have a moral duty to try to convert us or kill us as apostates. That's the facts.
I am anti Islam, I am also anti Christian and anti Judaism and anti everything else. Therefore I don't care if Muslims are mistreated in the us becaus they would MURDER ME in a nation that was majority Muslim. Just like I don't care about Christians mistreated because the majority of time their mistreatment consists of them not being allowed to spread their Christians values and again
DESTROY ME.
I'm a jaded person, the Syrian civil war is bad, but I don't have a supreme amount of sympathy for many refugees because again they would have shunned/tried to kill me if their nation was a primarily Islamic nation. In truth i support nations like Austria and Denmark who have reached capacity with refugees and are closing borders/taking their valuables above a certain percentage in order to pay for their care. (The latter already being done to Danish citizens before they qualify for unemployment. Basically it says that you have to sell everything worth more than 1400 kuros before the government takes care of you, no leeching)
So I don't care that Muslims are mistreated
I don't want to wear a headscarf in solidarity
And we all know that if the us became a majority Muslim nation. Or even a Christian theocracy, we would all be hunted and forced to convert, exiled, or shot in the head and our belongings claimed by the religious members of the state.
In conclusions
Fuck Muslims
Fuck Catholics
Fuck Protestants
Fuck Shia
Fuck Sunni
Fuck Hindus
Fuck Jews
Fuck those other guys
Buddhists aren't that bad
And fuck cultists
I don't care. They would kill me. They deserve no sympathy or brotherhood as a people, maybe as a exception for friends and family as all exist
But as a people they would murder me for what I am. A bisexual atheist
That's the fact jack
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 22, 2015, 10:56:11 AM
Only now I'm seeing a thing where anti Islam is being seen not as atheistic thing and more like an "islamophobic" thing. I'm also seeing a surge of articles that show pity towards Muslims and sarcasm that says that Muslims are not as bad as they say and we should not treat them bad.
Muslims in general
aren't as bad as you say. They aren't. Some of the anti-Islam articles that get posted come from some of the most vitriolic conspiracy theory websites in existence, and I wouldn't tolerate that shit being passed off as "news" no matter who it's about.
I don't mind articles condemning the ultra-conservative Christian right or fundamentalist Muslims. I agree. Fuck those people. But there are shades of Christians: I would never throw my ultra-liberal Lutheran grandparents into the same lot that I throw the Westboro Baptist Church. No one posts a lot of articles explaining how every average Joe who goes to First Baptist Church of Podunk Illinois is secretly plotting to murder abortion clinic doctors and institute a Christian theocracy in America. Basically, anyone who knows anything about the situation understands there's the dangerous conservative Christian right full of people like the Duggars, Mike Huckabee and Joshua Feuerstein, and then there's all those other Christians who believe in God and go about their daily lives not really giving a fuck.
But that is not at all how Islam is treated on these forums by a handful of people. According to some, Islam and all of its adherents are out to rule the planet. And that's just ridiculous.
Do you want a shitstorm? Cause this is how you get a shitstorm.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on December 22, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Do you want a shitstorm? Cause this is how you get a shitstorm.
No kidding.
I find it awkward that I've spent a lot of my atheist existence defending the fact that you can be a good person and be an atheist to religious people, but now I find myself explaining to atheists that you can also be a good person and believe in a god.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on December 22, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Do you want a shitstorm? Cause this is how you get a shitstorm.
Eh. I'm tired of PR and shir always making article after article with their proxy war. This way it's all out in the open. I hate Muslims and I hate Christians
I don't care if either is mistreated
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 22, 2015, 11:33:54 AM
I don't care if either is mistreated
I prefer peace, otherwise it turns into a lot of Hatfields and McCoys bullshit and that's how religions keep going. People like having factions to root for, and when one feels like it's been slighted, it just ignites a new wave of fervor.
It's amazing how little Christians care about their religion until they feel like they're "under attack."
Quote from: TomFoolery on December 22, 2015, 11:36:49 AM
I prefer peace, otherwise it turns into a lot of Hatfields and McCoys bullshit and that's how religions keep going. People like having factions to root for, and when one feels like it's been slighted, it just ignites a new wave of fervor.
It's amazing how little Christians care about their religion until they feel like they're "under attack."
I have to hide what I am otherwise a gang of Christian boys will beat me down in public places, I haven't told my family that I'm bi or an atheist because they'll kick me to the streets
You'll forgive me if I don't see peace as an option after what I have seen
One 7-11 owner is a Muslim another is a Sikh and I buy coffee and milk from both. Ain't shooting anybody. I think you'd discover if you look that a lot of "pro" Islam comes from Shiranu, who I believe has that heritage. There is some definite anti on here from other people. Its a forum, a place for discussion. If people get butthurt, shit happens. I've been butthurt my share of times as well.
I'm not going to get offended by either, but then I don'r have any real axes to grind in that arena. My son had mostly positive things to say about Iraqis and Afghanis serving over there, so pick and choose as you see fit.
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 22, 2015, 10:56:11 AM
In conclusions
Fuck Muslims
Fuck Catholics
Fuck Protestants
Fuck Shia
Fuck Sunni
Fuck Hindus
Fuck Jews
Fuck those other guys
Buddhists aren't that bad
And fuck cultists
You forgot one OP.
Fuck bigots who think they hold the moral high ground, but are worse than the Western Muslims that mean us no harm and just want to live their lives in peace. Being ok with Muslims being mistreated is no better than someone mistreating you for being bisexual or a fat slob. We should be anti-Islam since it's a bunch of garbage, but being ok with certain people being mistreated is bigotry, and there is no way around that. None.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on December 22, 2015, 12:00:27 PM
You forgot one OP.
Fuck bigots who think they hold the moral high ground, but are worse than the Western Muslims that mean us no harm and just want to live their lives in peace. Being ok with Muslims being mistreated is no better than someone mistreating you for being bisexual or a fat slob. We should be anti-Islam since it's a bunch of garbage, but being ok with certain people being mistreated is bigotry, and there is no way around that. None.
I never denied being a bigot. I hate who I hate for what they stand for and I don't claim to be on a oral high ground, I have friends who are Christian and Muslim. Good people. I hate their religion.
I don't care if they're mistreated. Because I've been my whole life and I've survived. Ever been beaten into a corner by your parents? Ever been attacked because you don't believe? Whipped with a belt because you said god dammit? Ever have that?
I don't care. Never have. Never will. The goodness in me was beaten out a long time ago. And I don't speak in metaphors
Lol. Its still a forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how objectionable it might be. Chide away, people. Chide away.
The problem is that if one is dissing / criticizing Islam, the ideology it is immediately, every single time without fail is transposed of dissing / demonizing Muslims.
No such problems exist in America with Christianity.
They are not violent murderers, rapist, slavers. The are not a minority, and all white.
No fear of violent retaliation. Let them have it with both barrels.
Muslims on the other hand, happen to be the protected species of our time.
Because we cannot be sure when and where they will take offense and turn nasty.
So we got to be nice. Or else.
I agree with the OP. But not to the point of violence. There are no Muslims that are sane. There are no religious that are sane. That does not mean they are violent. But I do think that religion has a way of making otherwise peaceful people violent. I think that the muslim terrorists need to be made aware by their own kind that their actions are not acceptable. The typical muslim should not be neutral. It is their religion that is being used by the most violent. And if the rest of Islam cannot or will not try to stop them, they will never be stopped.
QuoteI think that the muslim terrorists need to be made aware by their own kind that their actions are not acceptable. The typical muslim should not be neutral. It is their religion that is being used by the most violent. And if the rest of Islam cannot or will not try to stop them, they will never be stopped.
The problem with that is that no Muslim can criticize other Muslims when they are doing what Muhammad done and it is part of the Quran and the sunna.
To do so is tantamount to apostasy, punishable by death.
Sorry, but this is Islam.
Islam's rules has not changed for 14 centuries. It is highly unlikely that it will change anytime soon.
Mike CL - Read history. They will never be stopped, and we will never be stopped. History doesn't stop.
GrinningYMIR - there are days when I want all the bullshit to stop too. Get ahold of yourself, get a good nights sleep, and you can start a new day.
pr126 - I understand your problem is primarily barbarians against the civilized ... and if you are facing barbarians, you have to kill them. But don't come to the US to save your lazy asses again. And if you ask, we should ignore you, rather than scheme with you in Libya etc. Italy and France were the ones who pushed for the Libyan intervention. Both are more or less Christian ... and like the colonial powers that they are, they project their violence outside their borders. If all the world were Italy or France ... then their violence would be inward by definition. So yes, the civilized are violent, just not as Third World poor folk. Or continue the Roman Imperial fantasy ... that the Empire brings justice etc.
GrinningYMIR ... if one is anti-Judeo-Christian or anti-Greco-Roman then by definition one is anti-Western. Atheism isn't Western or Eastern. And yes, Buddhists can be bad, just ask the Japanese. And I am sorry you feel/are so oppressed at home.
Baruch wrote:Quoteif one is anti-Judeo-Christian or anti-Greco-Roman then by definition one is anti-Western.
You are absolutely correct.
Cultural Marxist indoctrination in academia is teaching against western culture for many decades now.
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 22, 2015, 11:40:02 AM
I have to hide what I am otherwise a gang of Christian boys will beat me down in public places, I haven't told my family that I'm bi or an atheist because they'll kick me to the streets
You'll forgive me if I don't see peace as an option after what I have seen
Those ultra-liberal Lutheran grandparents I mentioned? They're retired, so they have a lot of time on their hands. Back in 2011 when the Minnesota legislature attempted to pass a bill banning gay marriage, they spent countless hours volunteering and distributing literature to prevent that bill from becoming law. They believe in a Christian God,
and they believe in a gay individual's rights. So what you're saying is you hate them for believing in God because of the way some other people (who also believe in God and cherry pick scripture a little too literally) have treated you.
You're perpetuating a problem which is bigotry and violence towards others based on who they are and what they believe in instead of what they say and do.
QuoteOnly now I'm seeing a thing where anti Islam is being seen not as atheistic thing and more like an "islamophobic" thing.
I'm sorry if I have come across that way when my intention was more anti-extremely-hyperbolic-and-misleading-anti-Islam. I think Islam has absolute boatloads of terrible things that need to be addressed... it's just the whole blowing it's sins out of proportions and implying it is infinitely and incomparably worse vs any other group in the world that get's on my nerves. That and calling for frankly un-American and un-ethical laws and treatment.
QuoteAtheists who must be destroyed at worst or shunned at best.
We all know that.
I really don't know that. I have said it before; I live in Central Texas... at least 6 Muslims, 2 Hindus and god knows how many Christians of various denominations (mostly Catholic and ELCA Lutheran) know I am an atheist. You know how many have shunned me or tried to convert me? Zero. The closest I have gotten is one of my Pakistani friends jokingly telling me that "Come on... you already have the name and beard, so when you going to convert?". Several of the Christians are openly gay and accepted within their church/family/community.
I grew up in a church until my family switched around 12 years old that was highly bigoted and highly sexist... I know they obviously exist... but even here in back-water United States they are more and more seen as "weird" and bigoted rather than being the majority. So I really don't know... when you say "we all know this"... what you mean. My life experience simply has not shown me that to be the case.
QuoteSo I don't care that Muslims are mistreated/Just like I don't care about Christians mistreated
QuoteThey deserve no sympathy or brotherhood as a people
QuoteI never denied being a bigot.
I'm sorry you feel that way but... then you are not a shred better than the people you condemn. Indifference to violence and hatred (and in truth... getting pleasure out of it as you seem to do) is just as "big of sin" as being the one who commits these things and will never change things for the better.
If my posts are that annoying then I will either stop if enough people want me to or just say toss me on your ignore list.
QuoteI think you'd discover if you look that a lot of "pro" Islam comes from Shiranu, who I believe has that heritage. There is some definite anti on here from other people.
More or less accurate... my only thing is I would say my position is one more of anti-xenophobia. That said... I am sure I sometimes over-react to things that probably aren't as anti-Muslim as they come across (to me). So when I do that I will say now that I am sorry for that.
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 22, 2015, 12:04:54 PM
I never denied being a bigot. I hate who I hate for what they stand for and I don't claim to be on a oral high ground, I have friends who are Christian and Muslim. Good people. I hate their religion.
I don't care if they're mistreated. Because I've been my whole life and I've survived. Ever been beaten into a corner by your parents? Ever been attacked because you don't believe? Whipped with a belt because you said god dammit? Ever have that?
I don't care. Never have. Never will. The goodness in me was beaten out a long time ago. And I don't speak in metaphors
Well, I appreciate that you are at least honest about it. Yes, I've been attacked and beaten by my parents. I stood up to my father and physically showed him that I wasn't taking his shit anymore, and we've gotten along fantastic since that day. My dad is one of my best friends, and I get along with my mom good as well. Me standing up for myself fixed everything, but I know that's a risky move and could turn out really bad if you tried something like that. Yeah, it sucks that your parents might kick you out if they knew who you were, but not all Christians are like that. Not all Muslims dislike non-Muslims. I hung around with the Muslim kids when I went to school. They told me they believed that Islam was going to take over the world some day, but they still accepted me just fine as a non-Muslim. I was just another one of the boys. Their parents liked me, knowing I wasn't a Muslim. Yeah, sometimes someone would bring something up like "It's haram to eat with a non-Muslim", but the others would just shrug their shoulders and say "Whatever, he's cool." Plenty of Muslims and Christians are good people, and have no issue accepting people that are not just like them.
You can hate what Islam stands for, but we need to remember that when it comes down to it, most Muslims didn't choose their religion. It was drilled into their brains by their parents, who didn't know any better themselves. You say you will never care about the mistreatment of Muslims, but you are still very young. So many of my views have completely flipped from where they were when I was still living with my parents, and many of your views will flip eventually as well.
"War is a racket. It always has been... A few profit - and the many pay. But there is a way to stop it. You can't end it by disarmament conferences. You can't eliminate it by peace parleys at Geneva. Well-meaning but impractical groups can't wipe it out by resolutions. It can be smashed effectively only by taking the profit out of war."
Smedley Butler
Americans work, and earn a wage. Then they give part of their money to the federal government. Then the federal government spends money to make "war" (without congress even having to declare it) on people in other countries, maybe a trillion or more dollars.
But that money doesn't fall into a black hole, it goes into the bank accounts of people who already have billions of dollars - defense contractors, or, as I like to call them "war profiteers (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/03/10/10-companies-profiting-most-from-war/1970997/)."
This is how income redistribution works. It always goes up the ladder, to those who can create jobs for us to kill others.
But how can we take the profit out of war? I doubt we will ever manage it. Hence, "the long war" will continue in perpetuity.
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/01/4A8078449E794DFB8CC33ADD00A6F1AF.gif)
I don't think Americans would feel safe, if we were 6x all the rest of humanity in number and war expenditure. Like the Russians ... everyone on this planet is surrounded by armed enemies.
I didn't have too many problems with my parents. But my father didn't accept me as a man, until I stood up to him when I was 21. One's mother is a different matter. I think it is the same with daughters standing up to mothers ;-) Parents usually paternalize children of opposite gender.
Quote from: pr126 on December 22, 2015, 01:34:12 PM
Baruch wrote:You are absolutely correct.
Cultural Marxist indoctrination in academia is teaching against western culture for many decades now.
This is why the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution (based on the French) were considered more demonic than other more middle class revolutions. Both the French and Russian Revolutions rejected Judeo-Christian culture. Nazism was half way ... they rejected just the Judeo-culture, but they also neutered the Christian culture too ... ultimately they were moving to neo-paganism. A lot of the tension in the US is because of the rejection of the Greco-Roman by the more reactionary Judeo-Christians.
Gratuitous attacks on Islam help no one, and have proven time and again to egg on radicalization. Saying things like, "Where are the moderate Muslims?" is totally useless: how many of us went to the media to publicly denounce that atheist shooter last year? Where were the moderate atheists when Stalin and Mao were doing their thing? We make excuses to distance ourselves from those figures, sure, but all a theist hears is us dodging the issue of atheist mass-murderers. It's the same with Muslims: in general, Average Joe Muslim prefers to distance himself from extremism rather than come out and say, "That is wrong, I don't agree with it." Humans don't like being associated with things that they disagree with, and when given the choice of apologizing for another's actions and simply distancing themselves from said actions, we pretty much always choose the latter. We don't do this for logical reasons, and hence it doesn't matter what religion or lack thereof you adhere to: this is how you'll react.
This is going to turn into a rant if I continue, so I'll just end it here with George Carlin's commandment:
"Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself."
I have been on this forum since January 5th 2005. In all the ten years of active posting not once I have seen a post asking not to criticize or demean Christians and Christianity.
The threads / post that demean Christianity way outnumbers posts on Muslim / Islam dissing on this forum.
Nobody minds. It seems that is a free for all no holds barred.
While with Islam thread lightly, because watch out for the labels - bigot, hater, Islamobhobe, fascist, Nazi, far-right, racist, and more. STFU.
The concept is now deeply internalized that Islam is off limits - GLOBALLY.
All other religions, have at it. Knock yourself out.
Finally several "excuses" by the media that Islam gets but never applies to Christianity (or any other religion).
The vast majority are moderate and peaceful
Only a tiny minority are violent.
Those are hijacking the peaceful religion.
It is not the real religion.
They are not true Scotchmen.
The are disenfranchised, socioeconomic, oppressed, marginalized.
Mentally disturbed.
Lone wolf.
Radicalized.
Extremist.
Militant. Etc, etc.
QuoteI have been on this forum since January 5th 2005. In all the ten years of active posting not once I have seen a post asking not to criticize or demean Christians and Christianity.
Oh... you mean like several people have done is this thread... some on this very page?
I mean... of all the threads you choose to say that.... you picked this one. I just don't even.
QuoteThe threads / post that demean Christianity way outnumbers posts on Muslim / Islam dissing on this forum.
Nobody minds. It seems that is a free for all no holds barred.
Yeah... that's generally because people don't come in here proclaiming that Christianity is going to be the end of civilization as we know it/asking where are moderate Christians condemning terrorism and theocratic policies/saying that Christians should be deported because "you never know they might be radical"/supporting candidates like Trump because "he is tough on them Christians!" regardless of how absolutely batshit he is/implying that all umph-illion Catholics are potentially little boy rapists and support a culture of choir boy rape/that Christians have a monopoly on the violence game... should I go on or do you get the point?
QuoteWhile with Islam thread lightly, because watch out for the labels - bigot, hater, Islamobhobe, fascist, Nazi, far-right, racist, and more. STFU.
Poor little pr... how terrible it must be to be labeled things you actually aren't just because you share some common beliefs with them. I cant imagine how it must feel for people to accuse you because of your ideology of being radical. Of being part of a group that condones terrorism and seeks to install totalitarian governments. Of distrusting and fearing anyone who doesn't share your ideology and feeling that they need to be converted or dealt with.
Must be horrible.
P.S. - I can't remember the last time someone other than you or Baron used the term "Islamaphobe"... you keep on running around yelling that people are calling you it and yet only you say this word.
QuoteThe concept is now deeply internalized that Islam is off limits - GLOBALLY.
All other religions, have at it. Knock yourself out.
Globally all other religions are fair game.
Mate... the broad brush... you need to stop painting with it just once.
Looks like my victim card has expired. :huh:
I'm a bit late to this thread, and apologies if this has already been covered, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 22, 2015, 10:56:11 AMI am anti Islam, I am also anti Christian and anti Judaism and anti everything else.
I am anti-religious. And by this I mean that I strive to lessen religion's role in public policy (and not just Christianity, but Islam and every other religion as well, though those two are by far the worst offenders), lessen the power of the priestly class, and ultimately build a more secular society. I would like to emphasize that this goal should only be accomplished through non-violent, non-forcible means.
I am anti-religious. And while I strongly disagree with people's religious beliefs, but do not hate the people themselves. I would be a poor humanist if I wished harm or was indifferent to harm on people simply because they hold beliefs that I vociferously disagree with. I loathe Christianity, not Christians. I despise Islam, not Muslims. I have had the luxury of living among people holding a pretty wide range of religious beliefs, there are decent people in every category. I despise people for what they do, not for the beliefs they hold, no matter how idiotic they may be. A violent criminal brings shame and sanction upon himself, but people who had nothing to do with it are not at fault, much less the entirely of some demographic they may share with others. Certain people who engage in these sorts of threads have had a lamentably difficult time understanding this basic fact, and remain in the company of countless others throughout history who have made the same basic lapse in judgement - the same guilt by association - often with tragic results. Ironically, some of these people are the jihadists themselves.
Ultimately, we cannot fight hate by embracing it. That path leads nowhere. Well, nowhere good. Please, rise above that.
QuoteUltimately, we cannot fight hate by embracing it. That path leads nowhere. Well, nowhere good. Please, rise above that.
If you want to see real hate, discrimination, evil, bigotry, the call for eternal war against the "other", I recommend chapter 9 from the Holy Quran.
Yeah. OK, I know. I am not helping.
Quote from: pr126 on December 23, 2015, 12:31:09 AM
Looks like my victim card has expired. :huh:
I thought it was your inner child that died. You still need to find a new one. Are you a grandparent? If so, spend more time with the grandchildren in your declining years man!
On the question of "why don't more Muslims condemn ISIS etc" ... that is coded wording for ... a non-Muslim wants the Muslims to engage in civil war, leave us non-Muslims out of it, until such time as all the bad Muslims are dead permanently or all Muslims are dead. But that isn't how things work ... instead we have non-Muslims going into Muslim lands and encouraging bad Muslims and encouraging civil war (they didn't choose it themselves, the people in Syria had lived peacefully together for centuries) ... while we watch and eat popcorn.
Well why hasn't the US erupted in civil war ... where all the Rs kill all the Ds or vice versa. If all Americans don't condemn and go out and kill every bad American ... depending on your voting record ... then you support all the bad things that Americans do at least by omission if not by commission. Least of all, if you pay taxes, you support all the bad things that the American government does ... and so you all deserve to die ... unless you are an active violent anarchist ... is that pretty much what y'all are saying? People have agendas backing what they say ... usually bad ones.
The sunnis and the shiia have been fighting each other for a millennia without outside encouragement.
The rift is not new. Battle of Karbala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala) was the start.
Okay, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what Grins says, and a lot of what Shiranu says.
Although I can sympathize with the persecution that Grins has gone through, it doesn't help anything to give in to your frustration, and just hate. The mistreatment of anyone based on their thoughts or opinions, is generally unacceptable. It's "do as you'd have done to you," NOT "do as has been done to you." That kind of thinking will lead to perpetual vengeance and war.
Not all the religious are hell-bent on oppression. If liberal Christians didn't stand up for the separation of church and state, then the concept would have no legs at all in the U.S. Most people that I (and doubtless you as well) deal with every day are Christians. Most are good people, and I treat them with respect, which they reciprocate.
But, now, if you're simply defining “persecution†as Christians not being allowed to use public office, or public money, or public spaces, to further their religion, then HELL YES, let the “persecution†begin!
As for Shiranu, I understand better now, after reading your posts on this thread, where you are coming from. I agree with a lot of it. But you had me concerned there for a while: I was beginning to think that you were just one Shahada away from becoming a Muslim, yourself.
Just remember that while most of the religious, of any denomination, are harmless, too many of them â€" THE TRUE BELIEVERS â€" are dedicated to converting, excommunicating, or killing non-believers. Don't be surprised that some people react emotionally to that, and start looking to religion as the cause of those radical opinions. It's a short step, from blaming the religion, to blaming the religious.
Hate is the enemy. And it often starts with fear. I wish everyone had the capacity to see around their emotional knee-jerk reactions to fear, and not behave prejudicially towards any individual because of their beliefs about God. But not everyone reasons well. A lot of people depend on their leaders to point them in the right direction. That's why there's nothing worse than someone with a pulpit, preaching fear and paranoia.
Safety is a prison.
Freedom is dangerous.
I choose the danger.
It's a dividing topic but one that has to be discussed. One side is hate towards the religious and the other is trying to reach them in peace because fighting doesn't get us anywhere, ironically attempting to reach them in ways that the religious were told to reach the strangers.
I've been persecuted and hated, so I don't have much room in my heart for it. I don't go out of my way to hurt and I still love my friends even though they're Christians and Muslims. And in one case a satanist. But I don't have much sympathy for them, and I certainly don't think that they should be treated better if they're going to treat me as garbage
There was a people in a book series called the tinkers, they were peaceful people, pacifists to the core, only had dogs to protect them, well one day a war broke out, basically a world war as the forces of darkness were attempting to destroy the world, the tinkers had no defenses and were annihilated. Utterly.
I say this because it's okay to be peaceful and try to reach out in kindness but don't fool yourself into thinking that there aren't people who will destroy you
I don't personally care what people post on here because it is a tempest in a teapot. My belief is that the genie is out of the bottle, and Islam will very possibly (eventually, not immediately) consume Europe. Somebody is supporting Boko Haram, ISIL, Al Qaeda and every other terrorist organization and nobody is doing anything about Christian terrorists that are attacking them and atheists and secular targets like Planned Parenthood. Only when secularism has enough clout to finally turn people away from archaic ideologies and we find a common ground that is for human good will a resolution happen, and I don't see that happening.
When Europe is completely Islamized, it will not stop here.
The USA and other western nations will not be left alone.
But seriously, how do you see the world in 20 years time?
IMHO ... nearly dead planet. Ecological and human disaster, with little surviving. Might take more than 20 years. This has been the assumption since the beginning of the nuclear age. Now we have climate change and mass extinction of wildlife and biological warfare.
However, pessimism is the enemy, along with paranoia and despair. Realistically, we shouldn't be alive right now either. But I live one day at a time, with a circumscribed hope, that I will get one more day to do something positive for someone.
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 23, 2015, 09:48:48 AMThere was a people in a book series called the tinkers, they were peaceful people, pacifists to the core, only had dogs to protect them, well one day a war broke out, basically a world war as the forces of darkness were attempting to destroy the world, the tinkers had no defenses and were annihilated. Utterly.
I say this because it's okay to be peaceful and try to reach out in kindness but don't fool yourself into thinking that there aren't people who will destroy you
That's definitely true. I don't think anyone here's arguing that malicious people aren't out there or advocating for pacifism. I emphatically agree that we should protect ourselves. I think the main bone of contention is how we should treat Muslims who haven't committed any crime. Some people, and a Presidential candidate no less, have advocated for various retaliations against Muslims as a whole for the crimes of ISIS - that they should be deported or have their civil rights curtailed. Remember the infamous mosque in NYC "controversy"? What would these sorts of hate-based policies really achieve other than hurting innocents, degrading Western values, and serving as recruitment fodder for jihadis?
Quote from: stromboli on December 23, 2015, 10:07:14 AM
I don't personally care what people post on here because it is a tempest in a teapot. My belief is that the genie is out of the bottle, and Islam will very possibly (eventually, not immediately) consume Europe. Somebody is supporting Boko Haram, ISIL, Al Qaeda and every other terrorist organization and nobody is doing anything about Christian terrorists that are attacking them and atheists and secular targets like Planned Parenthood. Only when secularism has enough clout to finally turn people away from archaic ideologies and we find a common ground that is for human good will a resolution happen, and I don't see that happening.
Where's your Christmas spirit? :new_xmas:
Your lack of faith in humanity is making Santa fly backwards! :03:
:a035:
Seriously though, every now and then, kids will give me some reason for hope. Something they will say, or do, that shows they're wise to the bullshit.
The worst ideology on this planet right now is Islam, not Christianity. Why? Most christian countries have become secularized, and there is little chance that any of them will become a christian theocracy. OTOH, the Muslim countries have not gone through a secularist phase and they are far from ever reaching that. In fact, many of these countries are going backwards to the 7th century Islam - ruthless and intolerant. If you're a non-Muslim religious person, or gay or non-believer, then you are a marked target for the Islamic extremists. Now, in America, most Muslims are being westernized, so they are not the enemy. But in Europe and in the rest of the world, just watch out. These Muslims believe in peace only when the world has been subjugated by Islam. Otherwise, it's just a temporary truce, and any time they can take control, they will.
But Ted Cruz is the Second Coming ;-) Theocracy can come to the US.
I've taken to calling him Ted Crude.
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 23, 2015, 06:07:40 PM
I've taken to calling him Ted Crude.
His father is a Dominionist. As a Jewish American, I would have to live on a Jewish reservation here , or be expelled to Israel.
All this gosh darn negativity. The Illuminati has everything in hand and the reptilian overlords will show up in the nick of time to save the elect.
Why cant we just nuke syria and get it over with?
Saint Nick of Time?
:weed:
Well, the war profiteers need a more protracted engagement with the enemy, so they can sell more weapons and make more profit.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 23, 2015, 06:44:32 PM
Why cant we just nuke syria and get it over with?
People think they have solutions to problems. But that is the second delusion. The first delusion is they think they have problems. The third delusion is they think their solution to their problems will be permanent.
Nuking people doesn't solve anyone's problems ... was the Cold War worth it? Only if it never went Hot.
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 23, 2015, 06:52:00 PM
Well, the war profiteers need a more protracted engagement with the enemy, so they can sell more weapons and make more profit.
The human race has always been at war, never at peace. The alternative to war profits,are war losses. And war losses are very much worth avoiding.
This is the result of the League of Nations ... didn't end war, it brought on more war.
This is the result of the UN ... didn't end war, it brought on more war.
Mischaracterizing reality ... and then trying to act on this delusion ... is normal, but un-profitable.
Anti UN now too?
The total deaths as a result of war have gone way down since the UN and the advent of nukes came to be
A very interesting book is The Better Angels of Our Nature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature). It gave me a whole new perspective (as opposed to only part of a new perspective).
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 24, 2015, 12:58:44 PM
Anti UN now too?
The total deaths as a result of war have gone way down since the UN and the advent of nukes came to be
There is evidence, and interpretation of evidence. The UN failed in Korea and Vietnam and numerous other places. But I am not saying it provoked wars. The League of Nations also didn't provoke wars ... it simply was a diplomatic circle jerk. If you think nukes brought peace ... then you are assuming that WW III (non-nuke version) would have happened as early as the 1960s (World War every generation or so).
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 24, 2015, 01:12:42 PM
A very interesting book is The Better Angels of Our Nature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature). It gave me a whole new perspective (as opposed to only part of a new perspective).
An interesting thesis, but I see no evidence for it. Every generation comes and goes, and recreates the conditions of what came before it.
Well, have you read the book?
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 24, 2015, 03:40:13 PM
Well, have you read the book?
Your link was the to the Wiki. Assuming the review is any good, and looking at the premises ... I could only laugh at the author's over-reach and the joke of human progress. My criticism would be tame compared to what is quoted in the criticism section. Based on 1945 ... all years since are less violent ... because we don't have a World War going on and we haven't dropped any nukes since then. Or we can make a comparison with the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. But one can say that more recent history is much harder to assess.
Now it is OK to be an optimist or a pessimist. But an empiricist can be neither. The author does try to use statistics. But I am reminded of the phrase ... lies, damn lies and statistics. If violence is a part of sociology, one can analyze it that way, but if over time, we are trying to make scientific history. History after all is just propaganda. Sociology however is policy ... the reason for this so called science in the late 19th century, was to put government policy on a scientific basis. This physics envy is ... pathetic.
Overall ... the book seems like a policy agenda, not a history at all. And optimistic.
GYMIR, I'll never know how bad and frustrating is to know that you could be physically harmed and thrown out from one's home by the people you should trust the most, but you are fast becoming like your parents- the people you are angry with because of their bigotry and destructive manner against you.
Oh and the irony. I was born in a muslim country, I have lived in a muslim country all my life, I'm still living in a muslim country AND everyone who knows me knows I am an atheist since I was 15. I'll be 40 this August, GYMIR. Nobody beat me up or threatened me to throw out for anything. I don't think my parents would throw me out doesn't matter whatever I do, I have never been physically harmed by them or anyone else for that matter. Nobody tried to kill me or try to do something bad to me, because I am an atheist.
I am sorry you are going through this. I am sorry that you have a couple of bigotic douchbags for parents and animals around that would harm you where you live.
But you are living in a shit hole and you need to get out of there, because it is poisoning you. Esp. in your depressed position, it will get worse and worse.
I don't know shoezie..I feel like where I am will just be forever. Losing hope that it's gonna change
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 25, 2015, 10:40:26 AM
I don't know shoezie..I feel like where I am will just be forever. Losing hope that it's gonna change
You feel that way, because that's how you feel when you are depressed. Like, the bad and negative feelings will never ever end. It feels very bad...then you laugh at it years later. The impostant thing is to get out from it with the least damage.
I'm on three meds now heh. Yeah I'm depressed but this whole deal feels like it's all it will ever be. Either get thrown to the streets or do exactly what they want.
I still don't like religion, and I don't think it's right to defend one when they're all against us. But I've got a lot of hate in me now
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 25, 2015, 11:10:48 AM
I'm on three meds now heh. Yeah I'm depressed but this whole deal feels like it's all it will ever be. Either get thrown to the streets or do exactly what they want.
I still don't like religion, and I don't think it's right to defend one when they're all against us. But I've got a lot of hate in me now
You are feeling bad, frustrated and feel like all world is going down in shit around you. Hate is a human feeling too GYMIR. It's OK to feel it time to time, esp. in face of what is going on in the world...etc. We all feel it some way or other. However, storing it up,
defining the world with it is harmful to you. Only to you. Not to mention it prevents you from enjoying your life at any age.
There is also this with you that you are taking social media -or any media- too seriously and you seem to feel like you have to fit in some norm that is put out there. Why? Who cares who wears what in solidarity, who cares who is saying what about video games, who cares what other people think? You shouldn't. You just need to avoid what is harmful to you and ignore every other thing for now.
Nobody is defending any religion. Nobody is telling you to like any religion. Shiranu is not defending any religion. He sees the hypocrisy, it is annoying him and he reacts to that. pr reacts to what he thinks others don't see. And they provoke each other. This is a forum. This is what we do here. Nobody likes religions. We can't like religions even if we tried, we are nonbelievers.
What you need to understand is the difference between hating religions and hating people. These are very two different things. And the latter doesn't stop at ones you think are automatically against you -which is a childish definition. Once you start to see the world in black and white, the world becomes some place where people either are against or for you. Doesn't that sound stupid to you? There are countless people who has nothing to do with what is going on in the world. Christians, Muslims, Jews...etc. the very majority of them do NOT want to do with any of this. They just want to go on their lives, take care of their families. Because that's how people work. An dpeople are pretty much the same everywhere around the world. Many 22 year old young muslim men feel pretty much the same about their parents as you do.
I know you and most of the 20 somethings here were born into this world of terrorism at its finest, but the world will change a lot fo times over in your life, kiddo. Everything is so bad, so terrible...blah blah. People always tend to think the time they live is the best and the worst in every way. They thought this in 16th century or 500 BC too. And they will think the same bullshit hundreds of years later.
World will be the same. World has always been the same and it gets more the same as it changes. You need to learn to compartmentalise a bit. Yeah well, I am very bad at it too. But I also know life is SOO short. Trust me. It's so short, I promise to you that you'll think I was just depressed at 22 yesterday, how and when the fuck I got to 40! Go out, make friends, find something to take your mind off things. Learn to accept things, protect yourself from bullshit.
Hate doesn't do good to anyone, GYMIR. Especially the one who hates.
I don't see much else in it, even right now I have a fake smile on my face while at Christmas, hating. I don't want to alienate shir but I'm tired of always seeing articles posted here that only show the extreme hate or extreme support of Muslims and others. I'm anti religion still, always will be, but in anti against all religions. And I'm sad that I live in a supposedly moderate nation but would be thrown out if people knew what I was
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 25, 2015, 12:18:02 PM
I don't see much else in it, even right now I have a fake smile on my face while at Christmas, hating. I don't want to alienate shir but I'm tired of always seeing articles posted here that only show the extreme hate or extreme support of Muslims and others. I'm anti religion still, always will be, but in anti against all religions. And I'm sad that I live in a supposedly moderate nation but would be thrown out if people knew what I was
First of all, this is apublic forum and everyone is entitled to their opinions, GYMIR. If we start to tell people what to post, we wouldn't be different from any religious site.
Secondly, it's also very obvious what Shiranu is reacting to. He is reacting to one sided bullshit. This forum gets one sided very easily and people are ready to jump on any bandwagons -some live on them- most people also don't like anything out of mainstream and the usual trend is just to look cool to others.
You don't have to like anyone's opinions, but demanding that they stop stating their opinions will just result people and me saying to you 'tough, deal with it'. Especially, when you are constantly complaining of lving in a household where you can't open your mouth about your lack of faith, your sexual orientation or any other opinions. You are trying to do what others are doing to you and that makes you miserable.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it is an pinion forum, so I'm entitled to not like what he's saying. So that's all
I'm amused and annoyed that people think that Shiranu -or pr126 or anyone else for that matter- are expected to be less stubborn about their opinions than others, just because they don't fit the common norm and getting a backlash for posting what they think. One would think you learned a bit about that with me.
Put them on ignore. Or just ignore them. This is not some place we tell people what to post about what.
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 25, 2015, 12:40:09 PM
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it is an pinion forum, so I'm entitled to not like what he's saying. So that's all
No, I don't agree that you are just saying 'I don't like what he is saying'. If that was the case, you'd post to him and say 'I don't like what you are aying and don't agree with it' and done with it. It's not what you are doing. It's also not just you and actually, people obviously triggered each other about
Shiranu-pr126 conversations. If other people didn't give similar reactions, you wouldn't post this thread.
Also make up your mind, GYMIR. It started to look like you are using your situation at home to make up excuses about bashing a conversation between two other people that you don't like. Use the ignore button, if it is that difficult. A lot of people uses that button for me. Because after some point, it becomes a childish whining.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 25, 2015, 11:48:02 AMHate doesn't do good to anyone, GYMIR. Especially the one who hates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtFLzGRfVnA
Grinn, time to move on. If life at home is so bad then move on. Get a bus ticket and move to somewhere else where you feel safer. Hating religion isn't going to solve didly squat and embracing mistreatment of others isn't going to make your life one bit better.
I moved on many times in my life and I'm at a point where I'm happy, but pinning your hopes on hate is a zero sum game..
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on December 22, 2015, 11:33:54 AM
I hate Muslims and I hate Christians
I don't care if either is mistreated
All of them? Doesn't blind hate make you as bad as them? If you'd said 'fundamentalists' I think you'd have made a lot more sense.
Quote from: Youssuf Ramadan on December 26, 2015, 05:46:33 AM
All of them? Doesn't blind hate make you as bad as them? If you'd said 'fundamentalists' I think you'd have made a lot more sense.
Technically, hating people never makes sense. We can not do other than what we do. The Christians actually have it right on this one. We should hate the sin, not the sinner. I'm not saying I don't get feelings of hate for some people from time to time. It's hard to avoid feeling this way, but it's certainly not something that has any sense to it. We are all victims of our circumstances in life. I don't even hate some of the world's biggest scumbags like Barack Obama or Usama Bin Laden, let alone the average religious fundamentalist who is guilty of far less than those scumbags. If they are preaching, for instance, about Muslims having the right to beat their wives, I wouldn't hate this person, but I would certainly hate their words and hate how they view the world.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on December 26, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
Technically, hating people never makes sense. We can not do other than what we do. The Christians actually have it right on this one. We should hate the sin, not the sinner. I'm not saying I don't get feelings of hate for some people from time to time. It's hard to avoid feeling this way, but it's certainly not something that has any sense to it. We are all victims of our circumstances in life. I don't even hate some of the world's biggest scumbags like Barack Obama or Usama Bin Laden, let alone the average religious fundamentalist who is guilty of far less than those scumbags. If they are preaching, for instance, about Muslims having the right to beat their wives, I wouldn't hate this person, but I would certainly hate their words and hate how they view the world.
I think you live in LA-LA land. Ask any Jew who has suffered from the Holocaust if he/she doesn't hate Hitler!! In many occasions, the sin and the sinner become indistinguishable. No, the Christians don't have it right on this one, either.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on December 26, 2015, 08:34:24 AM
I think you live in LA-LA land. Ask any Jew who has suffered from the Holocaust if he/she doesn't hate Hitler!!
Where did I say Jews don't hate Hitler? Anyone is free to hate anyone else. That doesn't mean there is any sense to that hate.
Sam Harris explains this really well. I'll try to find the video.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on December 26, 2015, 08:43:15 AM
Where did I say Jews don't hate Hitler? Anyone is free to hate anyone else. That doesn't mean there is any sense to that hate.
Sam Harris explains this really well. I'll try to find the video.
You missed the point -your claim was "hate the sin, not the sinner". It doesn't apply, particularly to Jews who have suffered from the Holocaust.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on December 26, 2015, 09:31:20 AM
You missed the point -your claim was "hate the sin, not the sinner". It doesn't apply, particularly to Jews who have suffered from the Holocaust.
Jews hating Hitler is understandable, but also illogical.
I found the video. The part about hate comes a few minutes after the 40 minute mark. [spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g[/spoiler]
This may be derailing the thread a bit, so I apologise for that. Sam pretty much says there is no logic in hating people, similarly to how there is no logic in hating a grizzly bear. The only difference between you and Hitler, is luck. The rest is all just an illusion. I didn't choose not to be a rapist. I can't take credit for not raping. You can't take credit for not murdering. This is just the way our lives have played out so far. We've been lucky. If you or I were born in Hitler's shoes, we would have to kill just as many people as he did. He had to do it, so when it comes down to it, when we hate human beings, we are pretty much hating them just for being unlucky. I would never call a Jew stupid for hating Hitler. It's human nature to hate. I even feel hate for human beings at times, even though I know very well that there is no logic behind that hate. I try not to hate, though. At this moment in time, I hate no one.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on December 26, 2015, 10:28:20 AM
Sam pretty much says there is no logic in hating people, similarly to how there is no logic in hating a grizzly bear.
It's a moot point. You can't apply logic to hate, or to any emotion for that matter. But people will hate whether it's the sin or sinner. And humans are not necessarily always logic. And it's a good thing as logic is limited. We would be diminished were we just being logical.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on December 26, 2015, 10:49:40 AM
It's a moot point. You can't apply logic to hate, or to any emotion for that matter. But people will hate whether it's the sin or sinner. And humans are not necessarily always logic. And it's a good thing as logic is limited. We would be diminished were we just being logical.
(http://www.rtba.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Spock-Illogical.jpg)
I can suffer from generalized misanthropy at times, but I don't hate anyone specifically. I also don't hate historical people. Telling the negative truth about historical people isn't hate, it is honesty. If I were in WW II, I would probably hate Hitler, unless I was German ... but I wasn't alive then. Had I been, I might not even be Jewish. People who hate Muhammad are in the same boat ... Muhammad is dead already. So easy to kick someone who is long dead ... they are definitely not getting up. If one hates Trump ... I can understand that ... but it is better to hate what he represents. Hating an individual or group (the Neanderthals who blindly follow Trump) ... distracts from the real enemy, which is the ideology. And the ideology of ideology is the greatest enemy of all. And besides, the greatest living enemy anyone has, is their own self.
I saw the bit on Sam Harris ... I have to disagree with him empirically (see prior post on Freudian/Lacan analysis of punishment) ... and I don't agree with his view on free will (whether that relates to punishment or not). His deterministic relativism ... though it has pragmatic aspects for locking people up ... is too empathetic. My empathy is because I can feel the evil in myself, and so I understand the evil in others. Not because I can feel the innocence in myself, so I can understand the innocence in others.
Quote from: Baruch on December 24, 2015, 09:40:39 AM
The human race has always been at war, never at peace. The alternative to war profits,are war losses. And war losses are very much worth avoiding.
This is the result of the League of Nations ... didn't end war, it brought on more war.
This is the result of the UN ... didn't end war, it brought on more war.
Mischaracterizing reality ... and then trying to act on this delusion ... is normal, but un-profitable.
But if we nuke syria, more war will come, more profit to your logic.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 26, 2015, 06:50:36 PM
But if we nuke syria, more war will come, more profit to your logic.
Only if we use neutron bombs. Kills people, leaves valuable real estate and infrastructure intact. But then the Germans caught onto this plan in the late 1970s ... and wouldn't let President Carter deploy them.
If your only value is profit, then you won't be Farengi, you will be Klingon. Farengi only rip off trading partners, they don't kill them.
hrmmmm why is this soo hard
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 26, 2015, 07:31:07 PM
hrmmmm why is this soo hard
You can't decide which fictional alien race you want to be?
Or you just want to see big radioactive explosions ... nuclear arsonist?
Baruch wrote:QuoteOnly if we use neutron bombs. Kills people, leaves valuable real estate and infrastructure intact.
valuable real estate and infrastructure?
(http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2476289.1450881977!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg)
(http://www.iranreview.org/file/cms/files/s05_RTR3AMB7(1).jpg)
Not as valuable after the US and its allies got thru with it ... interfering in the Middle East since 1948 at least. Just because those buildings are less valuable afterward ... doesn't mean they weren't valuable before they were knocked down. But face it ... the US considers money and technology to solve any and every problem. But if you know your Genesis ... this is the product of the descendants of Cain ... the first murderer.
Quotethis is the product of the descendants of Cain ... the first murderer.
Whom did Cain marry?
Quote from: pr126 on December 26, 2015, 11:45:36 PM
Whom did Cain marry?
The nephelim of course. The genealogy of the demons ... is not related in the Bible. Also the attempt to get rid of the fallen angels in the Noachic flood, clearly failed. But then G-d is clearly not intelligent.
i am a pyro you know
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 27, 2015, 12:23:13 AM
i am a pyro you know
Good. Seraphim are angels of fire ... cherublm are angels of an ill wind ;-) If they get married, they produce children ... of hot air ;-))
Quote from: Baruch on December 27, 2015, 03:13:23 AM
Good. Seraphim are angels of fire ... cherublm are angels of an ill wind ;-) If they get married, they produce children ... of hot air ;-))
wat
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 27, 2015, 03:56:07 AM
wat
LOL, you'll find the threads are easier to read, flow better, and are more organized if you just skip his posts.
Quote from: aitm on December 27, 2015, 09:10:52 AM
LOL, you'll find the threads are easier to read, flow better, and are more organized if you just skip his posts.
Yes, I am a Vandal ... but not very German. The echo chamber bothers me ;-)
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on December 26, 2015, 11:21:33 AM
(http://www.rtba.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Spock-Illogical.jpg)
In later years, Spock became a diplomat, hence more reasonable, less logical, and more human. Maybe his half-human side took over his other half-Vulcan side...;-)
Quote from: aitm on December 27, 2015, 09:10:52 AM
LOL, you'll find the threads are easier to read, flow better, and are more organized if you just skip his posts.
You mean Baruch?
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on December 27, 2015, 02:13:35 PM
You mean Baruch?
For me, the point isn't what you learn from me, but what I learn from you. "Ignore" won't stop that. Reading Shoe in particular is always worthwhile ... even though we agree on nothing.
I'm not against Christians; I'm against Christianity.
I'm not against Jews; I'm against Judaism.
I'm not against Muslims; I'm against Islam.
I'm not against Hindus; I'm against Hinduism.
I'm not against Buddhists; I'm against Buddhism.
Etc. Etc.
I'm not against the religious; I'm against religion. I don't manifest my opposition to religion as bigotry against people or groups.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on December 26, 2015, 10:49:40 AM
It's a moot point. You can't apply logic to hate, or to any emotion for that matter. But people will hate whether it's the sin or sinner. And humans are not necessarily always logic. And it's a good thing as logic is limited. We would be diminished were we just being logical.
Of course we can't just be logical 100 percent of the time, but I don't see any downside to being logical when it comes to hate. There are benefits to rising above hate, and there is a downside to letting hate rule you. Look at someone like Minimalist over at AF.org. I just read a thread over there about hate, and he said he hates all "republicunts". The guy is a complete man child, and has to be the biggest clown I've ever come across on the Internet. Hate has done this to him. It has poisoned him and turned him into a man child who hates tens of millions of his fellow Americans.
What benefits do we get from hating people? I'm not diminished by letting go of hate. I'm a happier person having let go of hate. Hate can eat away at you and poison you. I used to support the torture of Muslim terrorists, until I stopped looking at them as "the other" and imagined myself in their shoes for once. I let go of the hate, and I finally understood why torturing these people for information was wrong.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on December 28, 2015, 11:58:25 AM
Of course we can't just be logical 100 percent of the time, but I don't see any downside to being logical when it comes to hate. There are benefits to rising above hate, and there is a downside to letting hate rule you. Look at someone like Minimalist over at AF.org. I just read a thread over there about hate, and he said he hates all "republicunts". The guy is a complete man child, and has to be the biggest clown I've ever come across on the Internet. Hate has done this to him. It has poisoned him and turned him into a man child who hates tens of millions of his fellow Americans.
What benefits do we get from hating people? I'm not diminished by letting go of hate. I'm a happier person having let go of hate. Hate can eat away at you and poison you. I used to support the torture of Muslim terrorists, until I stopped looking at them as "the other" and imagined myself in their shoes for once. I let go of the hate, and I finally understood why torturing these people for information was wrong.
Well, that's another matter. My post to you was about distinguishing between "hate the sin" from "hate the sinner". And for some, there is no difference. Like any emotion, whether hate or love, it can consume you and destroy your life. The trick is you in control of your emotions, not the other way around.
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/21/2185a3df1796e425b781b92df7d587918021744e356b40bf059500222b1dda80.jpg)
Quote from: Baruch on December 26, 2015, 11:41:39 PMBut if you know your Genesis ... this is the product of the descendants of Cain ... the first murderer.
I thought they were supposedly the descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham, half brother of Isaac, of whom it was said, "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."
:confuse:
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on December 28, 2015, 11:58:25 AM
What benefits do we get from hating people?
Hate can be a strong motivator and move people to action who might otherwise be apathetic. That is the only benefit I can think of.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on January 07, 2016, 12:29:27 PM
Hate can be a strong motivator and move people to action who might otherwise be apathetic. That is the only benefit I can think of.
Love and hate are two sides of the same coin. They can be creative as well as destructive. In the long run though, cool rational thinking wins out over passion.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on January 07, 2016, 08:01:45 AM
I thought they were supposedly the descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham, half brother of Isaac, of whom it was said, "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."
:confuse:
Arabs are descended from Noah, same as everyone else. Technologists (metal workers) are Kenites, and they are descended from Kain. They had their own boat (not a technical challenge for them, it was Noah that needed instructions).
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 07, 2016, 02:06:29 PM
Love and hate are two sides of the same coin. They can be creative as well as destructive. In the long run though, cool rational thinking wins out over passion.
"A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it." - Rabindranath Tagore
Tell that to the mad scientists, or who have committed terrible crimes against humanity without a shred of emotion, or politicans who fuck over millions for their own agendas. "Pure logic" is just as dangerous as blind emotion.
Difference Between Logical and Rational (http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-logical-and-vs-rational/)
Quote from: Shiranu on January 07, 2016, 06:55:41 PM
"A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it." - Rabindranath Tagore
Tell that to the mad scientists, or who have committed terrible crimes against humanity without a shred of emotion, or politicans who fuck over millions for their own agendas. "Pure logic" is just as dangerous as blind emotion.
Society degrades to the degree that it rejects poetry and music. Maybe that quote sounded better in the original Bengali? ;-)
A modern rendition of a Tagore song ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlvbMcXBnOs&list=PLB3EEAA693F1E20F7
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 07, 2016, 07:02:54 PM
Difference Between Logical and Rational (http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-logical-and-vs-rational/)
And that was a good post ... not Stormfront at all. The problem with being rational, is that the real numbers and complex numbers are unavailable to you ;-) The problem with being logical, is that it doesn't prevent one from being consistently wrong ;-)
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 07, 2016, 07:02:54 PM
Difference Between Logical and Rational (http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-logical-and-vs-rational/)
Nice ignore list :p
Quote from: Baruch on January 07, 2016, 07:22:55 PM
And that was a good post ... not Stormfront at all. The problem with being rational, is that the real numbers and complex numbers are unavailable to you ;-) The problem with being logical, is that it doesn't prevent one from being consistently wrong ;-)
One, you should know that numbers are human constructs, and so their names are whimsical. Two, pure logic is for machine.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 07, 2016, 02:06:29 PM
Love and hate are two sides of the same coin. They can be creative as well as destructive. In the long run though, cool rational thinking wins out over passion.
I too, see love and hate as being connected. I see the opposite of hate to be indifference. I used to hate my ex. Now I have simple indifference. I just don't care what happens to her--good, bad, or neutral. I don't wish her ill............I don't wish her good. I just ignore the fact that she exists. She has no impact. If I really hate something, I pay attention to it, monitor it; but if I'm indifferent to it I expend zero energy on it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 08, 2016, 10:58:13 AM
I too, see love and hate as being connected. I see the opposite of hate to be indifference. I used to hate my ex. Now I have simple indifference. I just don't care what happens to her--good, bad, or neutral. I don't wish her ill............I don't wish her good. I just ignore the fact that she exists. She has no impact. If I really hate something, I pay attention to it, monitor it; but if I'm indifferent to it I expend zero energy on it.
Indeed, you get out of the love/hate connection by getting indifferent. Good for you that you did.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 07, 2016, 06:55:41 PM
Tell that to the mad scientists, or who have committed terrible crimes against humanity without a shred of emotion, or politicans who fuck over millions for their own agendas. "Pure logic" is just as dangerous as blind emotion.
Do you really think we have a shortage of emotion in this world?
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on January 08, 2016, 10:32:23 PM
Do you really think we have a shortage of emotion in this world?
No, but I do think we have many people who think that means we shouldn't value emotions and always put logic and reason ahead of emotions; something I completely and utterly disagree with.
Logic and reason are no better than emotion and passion because they serve different purposes. Emotion is just as great of tool, if not better, than logic for enacting change for the better. It would be irrational and illogical to ignore the value.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 08, 2016, 10:39:51 PM
No, but I do think we have many people who think that means we shouldn't value emotions and always put logic and reason ahead of emotions; something I completely and utterly disagree with.
Logic and reason are no better than emotion and passion because they serve different purposes. Emotion is just as great of tool, if not better, than logic for enacting change for the better. It would be irrational and illogical to ignore the value.
EQ vs IQ is as old as the Plato's rejection of Homer. Aristotle however tried to put art on a rational basis with his idea of catharsis.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 07, 2016, 07:32:01 PM
Nice ignore list :p
The problem with the article in question is that it states "reason is different from logic," but then it follows that with a Baruchian ramble that doesn't clarify much of anything.
In common usage, being rational usually implies not getting overly emotional, as in throwing fits of rage or fits of manic ecstasy. While being logical, often means just about anything, but not limited to "following a set of rules that test validity." But common usage is seldom accurate.
However, the dictionary would seem to compare them as similar, rather than contrast them as different, and identifies them as actual synonyms.
adjective:
rational1. based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
synonyms:
logical, reasoned, sensible, reasonable, cogent, intelligent, judicious, shrewd, common-sense, commonsensical, sound, prudent; down-to-earth, practical, pragmatic
adjective:
logicalof or according to the rules of logic or formal argument." •characterized by or capable of clear, sound reasoning.
synonyms: reasoned, well reasoned, reasonable,
rational, left-brained, sound, cogent, well-thought-out, valid; coherent, clear, well organized, systematic, orderly, methodical, analytical, consistent, objective
Quote from: SGOS on January 09, 2016, 07:57:57 AM
The problem with the article in question is that it states "reason is different from logic," but then it follows that with a Baruchian ramble that doesn't clarify much of anything.
In common usage, being rational usually implies not getting overly emotional, as in throwing fits of rage or fits of manic ecstasy. While being logical, often means just about anything, but not limited to "following a set of rules that test validity." But common usage is seldom accurate.
However, the dictionary would seem to compare them as similar, rather than contrast them as different, and identifies them as actual synonyms.
adjective: rational
1. based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
synonyms: logical, reasoned, sensible, reasonable, cogent, intelligent, judicious, shrewd, common-sense, commonsensical, sound, prudent; down-to-earth, practical, pragmatic
adjective: logical
of or according to the rules of logic or formal argument." •characterized by or capable of clear, sound reasoning.
synonyms: reasoned, well reasoned, reasonable, rational, left-brained, sound, cogent, well-thought-out, valid; coherent, clear, well organized, systematic, orderly, methodical, analytical, consistent, objective
You get me, and take me back ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68X8o0S7vJc
I could quote from this ...
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/practical-reason/
But then I don't think most readers would bother, any more than I bother to reject in detail the contents of Pr126 links.
Quote from: SGOS on January 09, 2016, 07:57:57 AM
The problem with the article in question is that it states "reason is different from logic," but then it follows that with a Baruchian ramble that doesn't clarify much of anything
Baruch is the self-appointed court jester. He
reignsclowns everywhere (read: in all threads).
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 09, 2016, 09:12:01 AM
Baruch is the self-appointed court jester. He reignsclowns everywhere (read: in all threads).
Glad you are awake ... the sleeper must awaken. Now get on that giant worm and attack the Haakonens.
The problem is not humans possessing strong and various emotions, but how they can be manipulated for any agenda.
And a very common way to do that is to convince people how 'logical' to act in a certain way, despite their likely emotions.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 08, 2016, 10:39:51 PM
No, but I do think we have many people who think that means we shouldn't value emotions and always put logic and reason ahead of emotions; something I completely and utterly disagree with.
Logic and reason are no better than emotion and passion because they serve different purposes. Emotion is just as great of tool, if not better, than logic for enacting change for the better. It would be irrational and illogical to ignore the value.
Emotion has some value, but remember that those emotions are what informed all that bigotry and hubris you also rail against, as well as the compassion and humility you value. Ultimately, your emotions are a response. We'd do well to see that response is well-modulated.
Lack of EQ isn't proof that EQ is of less value. Otherwise lack of IQ would prove that IQ is of less value.
There's no value in being a screaming lunatic.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on January 09, 2016, 08:12:07 PM
There's no value in being a screaming lunatic.
In Bedlam, if you can scream louder than the other lunatics, there might be some value in that ;-)
QuoteEmotion has some value, but remember that those emotions are what informed all that bigotry and hubris you also rail against, as well as the compassion and humility you value. Ultimately, your emotions are a response. We'd do well to see that response is well-modulated.
And that is exactly why emotion should be valued as much... if not more so... than reason. What hope is there in educating and cultivating people to have the "proper" use of their emotions if we act like it is an inferior base sensation and not a key component of being human?
We could exclusively teach reason and logic till the cows come home and it wouldn't do a lick of good because being emotional and passionate is just as much of what it means to be human as thinking and reasoning are. But our society unfortunately does not value emotions (especially for men) as much as it does intellect and ultimately that is holding us back as a species.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on January 09, 2016, 07:39:04 PM
Emotion has some value, but remember that those emotions are what informed all that bigotry and hubris you also rail against, as well as the compassion and humility you value. Ultimately, your emotions are a response. We'd do well to see that response is well-modulated.
We all know that when a mob acts, it acts logically and rationally//s.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 10, 2016, 02:03:29 AM
We all know that when a mob acts, it acts logically and rationally//s.
Musing ... mobs don't have a collective brain ... so no smarts there. Unless we are counting humans as being like brain cells, and the Internet as synapses (but in that case the collective response seems to be spastic). I am not sure I would ascribe collective endocrine reactions either ... but the fight/flight reaction seems to work somehow, at least when stimulated by the government gang-lia. Maybe that reaction uses Twitter? Emotions require more spontaneity than thought, and Twitters do seem to be more reactionary than thoughtful ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on January 10, 2016, 08:50:25 AM
Musing ... mobs don't have a collective brain ...
I have been both part of a "mob" and part of the object of the "mob". The brain does indeed become an assimilation of the collective.
Quote from: aitm on January 10, 2016, 08:53:42 AM
I have been both part of a "mob" and part of the object of the "mob". The brain does indeed become an assimilation of the collective.
Baruch never watched an epi of THE BORG. So there...
In a similar debate: Which is always better? A Ford, or a sunny day?
Quote from: josephpalazzo on January 10, 2016, 08:57:58 AM
Baruch never watched an epi of THE BORG. So there...
He loves me, he loves me not, he loves me ...
The Borg aren't real ... and your original comment was "sarc" marked. I took it as a backhanded hit on emotions. But I did take the idea, semi-seriously. And in that vein (no, not Fantastic Voyage) ... I do fear long term that people's relationship with the Internet under authoritarian control ... will create a loosely knit Borg unit. Shoe can be our queen ;-)
Quote from: SGOS on January 10, 2016, 09:25:56 AM
In a similar debate: Which is always better? A Ford, or a sunny day?
A sunny day obviously :P.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 09, 2016, 09:10:31 PM
And that is exactly why emotion should be valued as much... if not more so... than reason. What hope is there in educating and cultivating people to have the "proper" use of their emotions if we act like it is an inferior base sensation and not a key component of being human?
Even though it's the fact that we can plan ahead to stave off suffering before it happens is what separates humans from animals? Emotions make us human? Bullshit. Emotions makes us
animals. There's nothing wrong with being an animal,
per se, but if you think that emotions make us human, then you're the one missing a key component of being human.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 09, 2016, 09:10:31 PM
We could exclusively teach reason and logic till the cows come home and it wouldn't do a lick of good because being emotional and passionate is just as much of what it means to be human as thinking and reasoning are. But our society unfortunately does not value emotions (especially for men) as much as it does intellect and ultimately that is holding us back as a species.
Bullshit. The words of the anti-gay pastor preaches about the filth of gays is backed by a feeling of disgust against them to the cheers of their flocks. Democrats and Republicans verbally tear into each other at every opportunity, again to the cheers of their flocks. The woes of the Middle East ultimately derive from religious hatred, to the cheers of everyone involved. We are a culture dominated by instant gratification, everything to be at our fingertips with no work involved and no sacrifice â€" a classic example of emotion being the priority concern in society. If anything is holding us back as a species, it is too much emotion.
Emotions are powerful, but in the end, that's all they are. The powerful emotion of disgust was as powerful in Nazi Germany against Jews as it was for the Allies when they found the concentration camps those Jews died in. Same powerful emotion, only the context in which they occur in makes them motivate people towards good or evil ends. Only reason can help you distinguish between the two. Otherwise, you're just an animal.
QuoteEmotions make us human? Bullshit. Emotions makes us animals.
A. I must have missed that memo where humans are anything more than apes that took an evolutionary path with a more advance brain. I'll be sure to bring that up with my Anthropology and medical professors (particularly the paleoanthropology and evolutionary departments)... I'm sure the world is waiting with baited breath to discover the entire evolutionary model is wrong.
B. That isn't what I said; I said is
A KEY PART and not "what makes us". The way you are wording it implies that it is the singular key and not one of several things. So sod off with the indignation about something I never said.
QuoteBullshit. The words of the anti-gay pastor preaches about the filth of gays is backed by a feeling of disgust against them to the cheers of their flocks.
Okay?
QuoteDemocrats and Republicans verbally tear into each other at every opportunity, again to the cheers of their flocks.
Okay?
QuoteThe woes of the Middle East ultimately derive from religious hatred, to the cheers of everyone involved.
Historically, politically and sociologically wrong but even assuming true... okay?
QuoteWe are a culture dominated by instant gratification, everything to be at our fingertips with no work involved and no sacrifice â€" a classic example of emotion being the priority concern in society. If anything is holding us back as a species, it is too much emotion.
Again you are implying I am arguing things I never said. I said
value. VALUE. Value means that it is held in an active sense of regard and not something just blindly given in to. And you only focus on the bad... yet if you look at the other side of the coin you will see that the only thing that pulls us ahead as a species is emotion. It is desire for goodness... caring about our fellow man... that motivates people to use their intellect for good.
Do tell how Wirths... Heim... Vaernet... just needed to be more rational and less emotional when they were using human test subjects as tools to develop new medicines/genetic alterations or how weapons effect the body. Tell me how Stalin and Mao just needed to be a little less emotional when they decided to starve and torture their citizens to make sure they were not a threat to their power base. I'm sure the CIA spreading HIV and heroin to black communities to see their effects as truth serums had nothing to do with blind "logistics". Tell me more about how the psychopaths who don't feel a thing as they a stab someone 26 times or cutting their head off with a chainsaw wouldn't benefit at all from emotions.
If your going to respond... at least this time try to not make strawman arguments like you did. It's annoying having to respond to them and the actual arguments.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
A. I must have missed that memo where humans are anything more than apes that took an evolutionary path with a more advance brain.
Good grief, way to miss the fucking point! Yes, humans are animals, too. That's why we have emotions in the first place. My contention is with your stupid statement that emotions make us
human. They don't. Plenty of animals have emotions, yet aren't human. Coppice?
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
B. That isn't what I said; I said is A KEY PART and not "what makes us".
...At the detriment of reason, citing an overabundance of reason (not emotion) as the root cause of the ill of the world. There's plenty of fucking emotion about. There's no danger of us becoming vulcans.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
The way you are wording it implies that it is the singular key and not one of several things. So sod off with the indignation about something I never said.
Get off your high horse. Your nuanced wording does not dismiss the overall point you were trying to make.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
Again you are implying I am arguing things I never said. I said value. VALUE. Value means that it is held in an active sense of regard and not something just blindly given in to.
Show proof of this or walk. I submit as my proof to the contrary the asshole who claims to be unmoved by the sight of a dead child. Do you seriously think that anyone would respond to such a person claiming that the sight of a dead child does nothing for them with, "Well, okay then."
Bullshit. The response would be, "What the fuck's wrong with you?!" and you know it.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
And you only focus on the bad... yet if you look at the other side of the coin you will see that the only thing that pulls us ahead as a species is emotion. It is desire for goodness... caring about our fellow man... that motivates people to use their intellect for good.
The good and the bad are a packaged deal. The same emotions that spur the desire for goodness also motivate the gleeful killer. The caring of our fellow man can and does lead them to harm and kill them "for their own good." You have no answer for my point that the same feeling of disgust motivates both a desire for justice and a desire for genocide.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
Do tell how Wirths... Heim... Vaernet... just needed to be more rational and less emotional when they were using human test subjects as tools to develop new medicines/genetic alterations or how weapons effect the body.
Their desire to further the Nazi cause and the knowledge of humanity. They all made poor choices of balance between fundamental human rights and their desire for such things.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
Tell me how Stalin and Mao just needed to be a little less emotional when they decided to starve and torture their citizens to make sure they were not a threat to their power base.
If Stalin and Mao didn't have such attachment to their power base that they feared losing it, then they would not be so concerned about threats to them, now would they?
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
I'm sure the CIA spreading HIV and heroin to black communities to see their effects as truth serums had nothing to do with blind "logistics".
Stop making shit up. Prove now that the CIA
had ever been involved in spreading HIV and heroin as you claim, much less as "truth serums," or walk.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
Tell me more about how the psychopaths who don't feel a thing as they a stab someone 26 times or cutting their head off with a chainsaw wouldn't benefit at all from emotions.
Are you confusing horror films with reality now? Psychopaths don't stab people for no reason or because they don't feel. And even if they did, what of it? Psychopaths don't strike me as people prone to excessive reasoning.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 06:46:10 PM
If your going to respond... at least this time try to not make strawman arguments like you did. It's annoying having to respond to them and the actual arguments.
Whatev', hoss.
Quote from: SGOS on January 10, 2016, 09:25:56 AM
In a similar debate: Which is always better? A Ford, or a sunny day?
Sunny day.
(http://toilynnwyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/blossoming-goddess-zen-life-coaching.jpg)
QuoteGood grief, way to miss the fucking point! Yes, humans are animals, too. That's why we have emotions in the first place. My contention is with your stupid statement that emotions make us human. They don't. Plenty of animals have emotions, yet aren't human. Coppice?
Oh... so because other animals have emotions that means it cant be a key component of being human. Got it. So I guess thinking isn't a key component of being human either since animals can think to a lesser degree. Nor is living because animals can live as well.
Perfect sense. I got it now. My bad.
Quote...At the detriment of reason, citing an overabundance of reason (not emotion) as the root cause of the ill of the world. There's plenty of fucking emotion about. There's no danger of us becoming vulcans.
Yeah never implied that. I gave
examples. No shit emotion is a cause; have I not posted about how crime is often a crime of passion rather than a thought out processes? Didn't I just ask for you to stop with the strawman bullshit?
QuoteShow proof of this or walk. I submit as my proof to the contrary the asshole who claims to be unmoved by the sight of a dead child. Do you seriously think that anyone would respond to such a person claiming that the sight of a dead child does nothing for them with, "Well, okay then." Bullshit. The response would be, "What the fuck's wrong with you?!" and you know it.
Okay. I'm done you are just intentionally talking out your ass now. Not particularly in the mood for strawmen and "arguments" of this caliber out the ass.
Protip; People can value something without valuing it "enough". People claim to want peace and love but then fight with their spouses. Your argument is "Nah don't worry he loves her... he buys her flowers and cares about her from time to time!" about a man beating his wife... because people show some signs of valuing emotion/valuing their relationship they must fully value their emotions/relationships and it's bullshit if you say "yeah but he still beats her...".
Nah. If you want to preach logic and reason maybe you should fucking practice it first.
QuoteThe good and the bad are a packaged deal. The same emotions that spur the desire for goodness also motivate the gleeful killer. The caring of our fellow man can and does lead them to harm and kill them "for their own good." You have no answer for my point that the same feeling of disgust motivates both a desire for justice and a desire for genocide.
No fucking shit I don't have an argument against that
BECAUSE I AGREE WITH IT AND THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE CULTIVATING EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE IS JUST AS IMPORTANT (MORESO EVEN) THAN JUST CULTIVATING AN INTELLECTUAL INTELLIGENCE.
Jesus christ.
It simply seems that a healthy, integrated person knows his emotions and understands them--and can think rationally. We are people and we will and do have emotions. Can't help it. What we can help is to keep them in control. And we can also learn to understand what it means to think rationally--and learn the pitfalls and traps that make us think we are thinking rationally, when we are not. Humans are made up of both emotions and rational thought, whether or not we like it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 10, 2016, 11:07:21 PM
It simply seems that a healthy, integrated person knows his emotions and understands them--and can think rationally. We are people and we will and do have emotions. Can't help it. What we can help is to keep them in control. And we can also learn to understand what it means to think rationally--and learn the pitfalls and traps that make us think we are thinking rationally, when we are not. Humans are made up of both emotions and rational thought, whether or not we like it.
And that's exactly what I am saying (after the first sentence anyways). I just don't believe that human beings... healthy or not... are born with a perfect understanding of their emotions, how to control them or even really what they always mean.
We can see failure to understand our emotions in how we treat others; we crave their attention and shove them away, we hurt the people we love, we want to live a peaceful life but let hatred dictate our actions. If we are in understanding of our emotions then we can learn to avoid these situations... but so often people do the opposite because they misinterpret what they feel as what they want to feel and act out on it.
Likewise control... even the healthiest and most logical of human loses control of themselves; as Hakurei said we are not at risk of becoming Vulcans any time soon (who lost control of their emotions from time to time as well [which was a key plot point and lesson]). Even the nicest of people can snap. Control of one's emotions is not just a matter of "rational thought" though... otherwise it would never break. People have to learn to control their desire and that is more "basic" of instinct than what takes place in the intellectual part of the brain.
And then there is what emotions even mean or when they should be felt... and this frankly varies from culture to culture. There are times that I am happy that someone in another culture would find insulting and inappropriate. There are things that I might find sad and crippling that other people find joyful in or beneficial motivation. I think almost all humans can agree at the base level what an emotion "means"... but we cant agree as much on what should be done with that meaning or when that meaning is appropriate.
It's understanding these things above that I believe is just as important as being intellectually intelligent; I feel like he maybe thinks I am implying that we should forgo intellectual education and replace it with emotional education and reflection but I am not... no more than saying learning to read and critically interpret literature is as important or moreso than learning mathematics means that I therefor think mathematics shouldn't be taught.
And he/you/everyone may disagree with this, but this is something I feel our society greatly suffers from it's sexism in; men are not encouraged to be emotional (outside of "manly" emotions), and to a smaller extent women should only feel "womanly" emotions. The fact that we have categories of what emotion "belongs" to which sex means that we don't have the slightest of emotional intelligence in our culture. You (he) is mistaking acting and living for emotions as being the same as understanding or cultivating emotions and having a high emotional intelligence.
If there is anything so controversial about these statement that it warranted the shitfest... let me know. But otherwise I am done arguing over this subject if we are not actually going to be addressing what I have said (not aimed at quote). I just don't believe that rational and logical thought are the end all-be all of controlling who we are and making us into "better" people. They are tools to make you a better person; or perhaps they are the legs of a "better person" to stand on... but they are not the better person themselves.
Even if you're "done with me," (Boy, haven't I heard
that line before) I still believe I deserve a rebuttal.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 09:17:15 PM
Oh... so because other animals have emotions that means it cant be a key component of being human. Got it. So I guess thinking isn't a key component of being human either since animals can think to a lesser degree. Nor is living because animals can live as well.
Perfect sense. I got it now. My bad.
Again, don't try to gloss over the overall point you tried to make: "our society unfortunately does not value emotions (especially for men) as much as it does intellect and ultimately that is holding us back as a species." You know full well that statement is bullshit. From the moment you typed it.
Yes,
strictly speaking, emotion is "a key component" to being human, but it's one that is
trivially satisfied by even infants. Nobody called upon you to be Captain Obvious.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 09:17:15 PM
Yeah never implied that. I gave examples. No shit emotion is a cause; have I not posted about how crime is often a crime of passion rather than a thought out processes? Didn't I just ask for you to stop with the strawman bullshit?
There may be a bit of hyperbole, but the essense of the argument remains. For instance, what enables us to develop all that "caring about our fellow man" you laud? It isn't emotions. It's
SYMPATHY. That's a separate phenomenon from emotions. Feeling your own pain is just a basic survival tools. Feeling someone else's pain as your own is the seed of compassion and conscience.
Yet your "our society unfortunately does not value emotions (especially for men) as much as it does intellect and ultimately that is holding us back as a species," belies your confusion between sympathy and emotion. You characterized sociopathy (psychopathy) as a lack of emotion â€" nope! That's a lack of social connection, of sympathy, not emotions. Lack of distinct emotions is alexithymia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia), and one of its results is lack of the drive to do much of anything. They don't do evil because it doesn't lead to any more emotional payoff than doing good does. They are the true robots in this world, and in practice they are essentially harmless.
People do things, for good or for ill, because it leads to an emotional payoff. Without emotion, you don't do much of anything but be a complete drone, but such creatures are actually rare. What's not rare is people who do what they do to get an emotional payoff
immediately, without thinking about what might happen down the line, or without consideration of how other people may be affected by that. I don't see how this happens without reason or knowledge, even with sympathy and empathy.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 09:17:15 PM
Okay. I'm done you are just intentionally talking out your ass now. Not particularly in the mood for strawmen and "arguments" of this caliber out the ass.
This is rich coming from someone who has and will soon strawman me.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 09:17:15 PM
Protip; People can value something without valuing it "enough".
No shit sherlock. Here's another protip; your actions attempting to bring about something of value can come to shit if you do it stupidly, even if you value it very highly indeed.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 09:17:15 PM
People claim to want peace and love but then fight with their spouses.
No, most people sincerely want peace and love, but often don't know how to go about it, even with their spouses. Or they were a bad match in the first place. This can happen if you have bad empathy, for instance (which is a separate phenomenon from emotions, by the way).
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 09:17:15 PM
Your argument is "Nah don't worry he loves her... he buys her flowers and cares about her from time to time!" about a man beating his wife... because people show some signs of valuing emotion/valuing their relationship they must fully value their emotions/relationships and it's bullshit if you say "yeah but he still beats her...".
And now you're strawmanning
me! Brilliant! No chain of reason leads you from 'man beats his wife' to 'nah don't worry he loves her' because buying one flowers or caring about them "from time to time" does not make up for the beating, and lack of effort to try to stop beating their wife (someone who ostensibly they don't want to see hurt) speaks to their lack of commitment. These are not the actions of a man who is in love with his wife more than he is in love with the idea of being in love with his wife.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 09:17:15 PM
No fucking shit I don't have an argument against that BECAUSE I AGREE WITH IT AND THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE CULTIVATING EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE IS JUST AS IMPORTANT (MORESO EVEN) THAN JUST CULTIVATING AN INTELLECTUAL INTELLIGENCE.
"Emotional intelligence" is still a form of intelligence. It's still a form of discernment and problem solving. "Emotional intelligence (EI) or emotional quotient (EQ) is the ability of individuals to recognize their own and other people's emotions, to discriminate between different feelings and label them appropriately, and to use emotional information to guide thinking and behavior." â€" in short, it's going about emotions in a reasonable way.
Check and mate, bub!
Edit: Whatever you want to interpret it as, this is my position. Quote it right or wrong again, I am done arguing about it. Have fun.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2016, 11:35:02 PM
And that's exactly what I am saying (after the first sentence anyways). I just don't believe that human beings... healthy or not... are born with a perfect understanding of their emotions, how to control them or even really what they always mean.
We can see failure to understand our emotions in how we treat others; we crave their attention and shove them away, we hurt the people we love, we want to live a peaceful life but let hatred dictate our actions. If we are in understanding of our emotions then we can learn to avoid these situations... but so often people do the opposite because they misinterpret what they feel as what they want to feel and act out on it.
Likewise control... even the healthiest and most logical of human loses control of themselves; as Hakurei said we are not at risk of becoming Vulcans any time soon (who lost control of their emotions from time to time as well [which was a key plot point and lesson]). Even the nicest of people can snap. Control of one's emotions is not just a matter of "rational thought" though... otherwise it would never break. People have to learn to control their desire and that is more "basic" of instinct than what takes place in the intellectual part of the brain.
And then there is what emotions even mean or when they should be felt... and this frankly varies from culture to culture. There are times that I am happy that someone in another culture would find insulting and inappropriate. There are things that I might find sad and crippling that other people find joyful in or beneficial motivation. I think almost all humans can agree at the base level what an emotion "means"... but we cant agree as much on what should be done with that meaning or when that meaning is appropriate.
It's understanding these things above that I believe is just as important as being intellectually intelligent; I feel like he maybe thinks I am implying that we should forgo intellectual education and replace it with emotional education and reflection but I am not... no more than saying learning to read and critically interpret literature is as important or moreso than learning mathematics means that I therefor think mathematics shouldn't be taught.
And he/you/everyone may disagree with this, but this is something I feel our society greatly suffers from it's sexism in; men are not encouraged to be emotional (outside of "manly" emotions), and to a smaller extent women should only feel "womanly" emotions. The fact that we have categories of what emotion "belongs" to which sex means that we don't have the slightest of emotional intelligence in our culture. You (he) is mistaking acting and living for emotions as being the same as understanding or cultivating emotions and having a high emotional intelligence.
If there is anything so controversial about these statement that it warranted the shitfest... let me know. But otherwise I am done arguing over this subject if we are not actually going to be addressing what I have said (not aimed at quote). I just don't believe that rational and logical thought are the end all-be all of controlling who we are and making us into "better" people. They are tools to make you a better person; or perhaps they are the legs of a "better person" to stand on... but they are not the better person themselves.
Quote from: stromboli on January 10, 2016, 08:54:06 PM
(http://toilynnwyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/blossoming-goddess-zen-life-coaching.jpg)
I often hang out in fields of daisies while meeting interesting women.
Most questions are multifaceted. Some aspects are best answered through reason, and other aspects of the same question can only be answered by emotion. The human thought process is almost always a dance between the two (except when it's a wrestling match between the two). Although I think reasoning is the skill we're most inadequate about as individuals, and as a civilization, I feel that emotional values are valid as well. Otherwise how could I use something like the golden rule as a guideline for my behavior? I need to be able to empathize emotionally, in order to decide reasonably, what is the best way to treat any particular individual, under whatever specific circumstances I am dealing with at the moment.
But my emotional responses are built on values I was taught as a child. Like anyone, I value myself, and my own pleasure, naturally. But from my parents, and my environment in general, I have learned to value life, liberty, happiness, health, equality, fairness, peacemaking, honesty, creativity, discovery, intelligence, beauty, and love. I can reason that equality is valuable, perhaps, but I will only assign value to it if I care about it. And caring is an emotional response. So my decision may be reasoned, but the working parts of my reasoning are often emotional values. In fact, the whole process can sometimes be just the prioritizing of emotional responses, deeming one more important than the other.
Many emotional responses can be trained, especially in the young. It's very important to help them develop a mature set of mental associations, as well as learn not to confuse their feelings with facts.
QuoteQuote it right or wrong again, I am done arguing about it.
I have to say that I never altered any of your text in my quotations â€" at best cutting for brevity, and as such, I find the implication that I will quote it "wrong" rather bizzare and insulting. This is why I'm responding dispite your promise that you are "done with it."
Quote
And that's exactly what I am saying (after the first sentence anyways). I just don't believe that human beings... healthy or not... are born with a perfect understanding of their emotions, how to control them or even really what they always mean.
We can see failure to understand our emotions in how we treat others; we crave their attention and shove them away, we hurt the people we love, we want to live a peaceful life but let hatred dictate our actions. If we are in understanding of our emotions then we can learn to avoid these situations... but so often people do the opposite because they misinterpret what they feel as what they want to feel and act out on it.
With you so far. However, I don't see how this is at odds with my position of we needing more rationality. What you are talking about is knowledge about our emotions, not emotions in and of themselves. As such, a good stiff dose of rationality will absolutely help, because "rationality" here does not mean to deny emotion, it means to figure out what is going on with our emotions and then fix what needs to be fixed. That includes figuring out how your emotions work in your relationships with other people.
So far, I don't see a difference between your position and mine. I also still don't see how this is supposed to be valuing emotions above intellect, or how that's holding us back. Quite the contrary, it is lack of intellectual, mature, and ultimately
rational management of emotions that is holding us back.
(And before you misunderstand, Shinaru, we do value emotions in our society, but that doesn't mean we know anything about handling it. We value the envoronment too, but that doesn't mean we know how to fix it or manage it properly.)
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Likewise control... even the healthiest and most logical of human loses control of themselves; as Hakurei said we are not at risk of becoming Vulcans any time soon (who lost control of their emotions from time to time as well [which was a key plot point and lesson]). Even the nicest of people can snap. Control of one's emotions is not just a matter of "rational thought" though... otherwise it would never break. People have to learn to control their desire and that is more "basic" of instinct than what takes place in the intellectual part of the brain.
If you think that emotional control consists of rational thought keeping a lid on things, then you've already lost control. We're not talking about keeping control of emotions through force of will. What we're talking about here is effective management of those emotions: manage the environment where those emotions can manifest; recognizing when your emotions are spiraling out of control; channeling emotions towards good ends (if possible), or at least non-destructive ends (if necessary); head off situations that may result in you snapping; if necessary, remove yourself from situations which might cause you to snap until you calm down. To think that you can always keep a lid on your emotions through force of will is
irrational; we've seen before that everyone has their limit, and it's
stupid to think that
you don't have a limit. The
rational response to an intense urge to kill your spouse is to
remove yourself from said spouse's presence and go somewhere else so you can calm down.
So again, I find that it's more rationality that is called for in this situation, not less.
Quote
And then there is what emotions even mean or when they should be felt... and this frankly varies from culture to culture. There are times that I am happy that someone in another culture would find insulting and inappropriate. There are things that I might find sad and crippling that other people find joyful in or beneficial motivation. I think almost all humans can agree at the base level what an emotion "means"... but we cant agree as much on what should be done with that meaning or when that meaning is appropriate.
Dispite cultural relativism nonsense displayed here, there are some universals to how emotions manifest. What is relative here is what each culture finds offensive or joyful, not whether or not they feel offense or joy, and even then there will be some constants (people find their children to be a joy, because any culture that finds them repugnant will not be long for this world). Their response will depend on any number of factors, as varied as you would find in our own culture (you would think that shit would be found universally repulsive, but some people are turned on by scatological imagry). These differences can be rationally investigated and rationally handled, if only we would do so.
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It's understanding these things above that I believe is just as important as being intellectually intelligent; I feel like he maybe thinks I am implying that we should forgo intellectual education and replace it with emotional education and reflection but I am not... no more than saying learning to read and critically interpret literature is as important or moreso than learning mathematics means that I therefor think mathematics shouldn't be taught.
I think the problem here is that you have very poorly communicated what you mean. It may be the fact that you don't have a clear idea yourself. You do seem to not recognize that what you employ here in all the above is
rationality. Your solution is not to slather on more emotion like a magic balm, or to value it more which implies nothing about having a good handle on it, but to handle emotions rationally â€" to recognize that they are powerful and need to be understood and managed.
You seem to agree with my basic thesis (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=9081.msg1110956#msg1110956) that emotions need to be well-modulated, where well-modulated does
not mean "repressed like a Vulcan" â€" that interpretation was never articulated, nor implied.
Quote
And he/you/everyone may disagree with this, but this is something I feel our society greatly suffers from it's sexism in; men are not encouraged to be emotional (outside of "manly" emotions), and to a smaller extent women should only feel "womanly" emotions. The fact that we have categories of what emotion "belongs" to which sex means that we don't have the slightest of emotional intelligence in our culture.
I challenge you to find a describable emotion that is either "manly" or "womanly," that there is any such emotion our society truly frowns upon that sex feeling regardless of the circumstances. And no, "motherly" is not an emotion.
Quote
You (he) is mistaking acting and living for emotions as being the same as understanding or cultivating emotions and having a high emotional intelligence.
When you argue
against a position that advocates
exactly that "understanding" and "cultivating emotions" you seem to be singing now, and describe emotions like you would a magic curative balm, it's hard to take it any other way. You did not mention emotional understanding or emotional control or emotional management, but emotion, full stop.
Quote
If there is anything so controversial about these statement that it warranted the shitfest... let me know. But otherwise I am done arguing over this subject if we are not actually going to be addressing what I have said (not aimed at quote). I just don't believe that rational and logical thought are the end all-be all of controlling who we are and making us into "better" people. They are tools to make you a better person; or perhaps they are the legs of a "better person" to stand on... but they are not the better person themselves.
Of course not. I even mentioned a group of people who are
exactly the logical people you think aren't better people, alexithymia suffers, and indeed they aren't anything to write home about. However, my (and our) calls for more rationality in everything must be taken in the context in which it is made, where we have many infantalized adults running around letting their base, uneducated emotions guide them, and
revel in that fact â€" this is the context that saying that we have plenty of emotion and emotion valuation already and it's time to start caring about rationality, which
includes the emotional intelligence you laud.
I had the sense that we were loudly agreeing with each other, and now I find in your most recent replies that I was right. You, in essense, don't hold a different position to us. Maybe we can chalk this down to someone poorly articulating their position.
(But let's face it, it's you. :twisted:)