Recent stuff involving Islam on the forum

[Shiranu]

Emotion has some value, but remember that those emotions are what informed all that bigotry and hubris you also rail against, as well as the compassion and humility you value. Ultimately, your emotions are a response. We'd do well to see that response is well-modulated.

And that is exactly why emotion should be valued as much... if not more so... than reason. What hope is there in educating and cultivating people to have the "proper" use of their emotions if we act like it is an inferior base sensation and not a key component of being human?

We could exclusively teach reason and logic till the cows come home and it wouldn't do a lick of good because being emotional and passionate is just as much of what it means to be human as thinking and reasoning are. But our society unfortunately does not value emotions (especially for men) as much as it does intellect and ultimately that is holding us back as a species.

[josephpalazzo]

Emotion has some value, but remember that those emotions are what informed all that bigotry and hubris you also rail against, as well as the compassion and humility you value. Ultimately, your emotions are a response. We'd do well to see that response is well-modulated.

We all know that when a mob acts, it acts logically and rationally//s.

[Baruch]

We all know that when a mob acts, it acts logically and rationally//s.

Musing ... mobs don't have a collective brain ... so no smarts there.  Unless we are counting humans as being like brain cells, and the Internet as synapses (but in that case the collective response seems to be spastic).  I am not sure I would ascribe collective endocrine reactions either ... but the fight/flight reaction seems to work somehow, at least when stimulated by the government gang-lia.  Maybe that reaction uses Twitter?  Emotions require more spontaneity than thought, and Twitters do seem to be more reactionary than thoughtful ;-)

[aitm]

Musing ... mobs don't have a collective brain ...

I have been both part of a "mob" and part of the object of the "mob". The brain does indeed become an assimilation of the collective.

[josephpalazzo]

I have been both part of a "mob" and part of the object of the "mob". The brain does indeed become an assimilation of the collective.

Baruch never watched an epi of THE BORG. So there...

[SGOS]

In a similar debate:  Which is always better?  A Ford, or a sunny day? 

[Baruch]

Baruch never watched an epi of THE BORG. So there...

He loves me, he loves me not, he loves me ...

The Borg aren't real ... and your original comment was "sarc" marked.  I took it as a backhanded hit on emotions.  But I did take the idea, semi-seriously.  And in that vein (no, not Fantastic Voyage) ... I do fear long term that people's relationship with the Internet under authoritarian control ... will create a loosely knit Borg unit.  Shoe can be our queen ;-)

[Shiranu]

In a similar debate:  Which is always better?  A Ford, or a sunny day? 

A sunny day obviously :P.

[Hakurei Reimu]

And that is exactly why emotion should be valued as much... if not more so... than reason. What hope is there in educating and cultivating people to have the "proper" use of their emotions if we act like it is an inferior base sensation and not a key component of being human?

Even though it's the fact that we can plan ahead to stave off suffering before it happens is what separates humans from animals? Emotions make us human? Bullshit. Emotions makes us animals. There's nothing wrong with being an animal, per se, but if you think that emotions make us human, then you're the one missing a key component of being human.

We could exclusively teach reason and logic till the cows come home and it wouldn't do a lick of good because being emotional and passionate is just as much of what it means to be human as thinking and reasoning are. But our society unfortunately does not value emotions (especially for men) as much as it does intellect and ultimately that is holding us back as a species.

Bullshit. The words of the anti-gay pastor preaches about the filth of gays is backed by a feeling of disgust against them to the cheers of their flocks. Democrats and Republicans verbally tear into each other at every opportunity, again to the cheers of their flocks. The woes of the Middle East ultimately derive from religious hatred, to the cheers of everyone involved. We are a culture dominated by instant gratification, everything to be at our fingertips with no work involved and no sacrifice â€" a classic example of emotion being the priority concern in society. If anything is holding us back as a species, it is too much emotion.

Emotions are powerful, but in the end, that's all they are. The powerful emotion of disgust was as powerful in Nazi Germany against Jews as it was for the Allies when they found the concentration camps those Jews died in. Same powerful emotion, only the context in which they occur in makes them motivate people towards good or evil ends. Only reason can help you distinguish between the two. Otherwise, you're just an animal.

[Shiranu]

Emotions make us human? Bullshit. Emotions makes us animals.

A. I must have missed that memo where humans are anything more than apes that took an evolutionary path with a more advance brain. I'll be sure to bring that up with my Anthropology and medical professors (particularly the paleoanthropology and evolutionary departments)... I'm sure the world is waiting with baited breath to discover the entire evolutionary model is wrong.

B. That isn't what I said; I said is A KEY PART and not "what makes us". The way you are wording it implies that it is the singular key and not one of several things. So sod off with the indignation about something I never said.

Bullshit. The words of the anti-gay pastor preaches about the filth of gays is backed by a feeling of disgust against them to the cheers of their flocks.

Okay?

Democrats and Republicans verbally tear into each other at every opportunity, again to the cheers of their flocks.

Okay?

The woes of the Middle East ultimately derive from religious hatred, to the cheers of everyone involved.

Historically, politically and sociologically wrong but even assuming true... okay?

We are a culture dominated by instant gratification, everything to be at our fingertips with no work involved and no sacrifice â€" a classic example of emotion being the priority concern in society. If anything is holding us back as a species, it is too much emotion.

Again you are implying I am arguing things I never said. I said value. VALUE. Value means that it is held in an active sense of regard and not something just blindly given in to. And you only focus on the bad... yet if you look at the other side of the coin you will see that the only thing that pulls us ahead as a species is emotion. It is desire for goodness... caring about our fellow man... that motivates people to use their intellect for good.

Do tell how Wirths... Heim... Vaernet... just needed to be more rational and less emotional when they were using human test subjects as tools to develop new medicines/genetic alterations or how weapons effect the body. Tell me how Stalin and Mao just needed to be a little less emotional when they decided to starve and torture their citizens to make sure they were not a threat to their power base. I'm sure the CIA spreading HIV and heroin to black communities to see their effects as truth serums had nothing to do with blind "logistics". Tell me more about how the psychopaths who don't feel a thing as they a stab someone 26 times or cutting their head off with a chainsaw wouldn't benefit at all from emotions.

If your going to respond... at least this time try to not make strawman arguments like you did. It's annoying having to respond to them and the actual arguments.

[Hakurei Reimu]

A. I must have missed that memo where humans are anything more than apes that took an evolutionary path with a more advance brain.

Good grief, way to miss the fucking point! Yes, humans are animals, too. That's why we have emotions in the first place. My contention is with your stupid statement that emotions make us human. They don't. Plenty of animals have emotions, yet aren't human. Coppice?

B. That isn't what I said; I said is A KEY PART and not "what makes us".

...At the detriment of reason, citing an overabundance of reason (not emotion) as the root cause of the ill of the world. There's plenty of fucking emotion about. There's no danger of us becoming vulcans.

The way you are wording it implies that it is the singular key and not one of several things. So sod off with the indignation about something I never said.

Get off your high horse. Your nuanced wording does not dismiss the overall point you were trying to make.

Again you are implying I am arguing things I never said. I said value. VALUE. Value means that it is held in an active sense of regard and not something just blindly given in to.

Show proof of this or walk. I submit as my proof to the contrary the asshole who claims to be unmoved by the sight of a dead child. Do you seriously think that anyone would respond to such a person claiming that the sight of a dead child does nothing for them with, "Well, okay then." Bullshit. The response would be, "What the fuck's wrong with you?!" and you know it.

And you only focus on the bad... yet if you look at the other side of the coin you will see that the only thing that pulls us ahead as a species is emotion. It is desire for goodness... caring about our fellow man... that motivates people to use their intellect for good.

The good and the bad are a packaged deal. The same emotions that spur the desire for goodness also motivate the gleeful killer. The caring of our fellow man can and does lead them to harm and kill them "for their own good." You have no answer for my point that the same feeling of disgust motivates both a desire for justice and a desire for genocide.

Do tell how Wirths... Heim... Vaernet... just needed to be more rational and less emotional when they were using human test subjects as tools to develop new medicines/genetic alterations or how weapons effect the body.

Their desire to further the Nazi cause and the knowledge of humanity. They all made poor choices of balance between fundamental human rights and their desire for such things.

Tell me how Stalin and Mao just needed to be a little less emotional when they decided to starve and torture their citizens to make sure they were not a threat to their power base.

If Stalin and Mao didn't have such attachment to their power base that they feared losing it, then they would not be so concerned about threats to them, now would they?

I'm sure the CIA spreading HIV and heroin to black communities to see their effects as truth serums had nothing to do with blind "logistics".

Stop making shit up. Prove now that the CIA had ever been involved in spreading HIV and heroin as you claim, much less as "truth serums," or walk.

Tell me more about how the psychopaths who don't feel a thing as they a stab someone 26 times or cutting their head off with a chainsaw wouldn't benefit at all from emotions.

Are you confusing horror films with reality now? Psychopaths don't stab people for no reason or because they don't feel. And even if they did, what of it? Psychopaths don't strike me as people prone to excessive reasoning.

If your going to respond... at least this time try to not make strawman arguments like you did. It's annoying having to respond to them and the actual arguments.

Whatev', hoss.

[stromboli]

In a similar debate:  Which is always better?  A Ford, or a sunny day? 

Sunny day.

[Shiranu]

Good grief, way to miss the fucking point! Yes, humans are animals, too. That's why we have emotions in the first place. My contention is with your stupid statement that emotions make us human. They don't. Plenty of animals have emotions, yet aren't human. Coppice?

Oh... so because other animals have emotions that means it cant be a key component of being human. Got it. So I guess thinking isn't a key component of being human either since animals can think to a lesser degree. Nor is living because animals can live as well.

Perfect sense. I got it now. My bad.

...At the detriment of reason, citing an overabundance of reason (not emotion) as the root cause of the ill of the world. There's plenty of fucking emotion about. There's no danger of us becoming vulcans.

Yeah never implied that. I gave examples. No shit emotion is a cause; have I not posted about how crime is often a crime of passion rather than a thought out processes? Didn't I just ask for you to stop with the strawman bullshit?

Show proof of this or walk. I submit as my proof to the contrary the asshole who claims to be unmoved by the sight of a dead child. Do you seriously think that anyone would respond to such a person claiming that the sight of a dead child does nothing for them with, "Well, okay then." Bullshit. The response would be, "What the fuck's wrong with you?!" and you know it.

Okay. I'm done you are just intentionally talking out your ass now. Not particularly in the mood for strawmen and "arguments" of this caliber out the ass.

Protip; People can value something without valuing it "enough". People claim to want peace and love but then fight with their spouses. Your argument is "Nah don't worry he loves her... he buys her flowers and cares about her from time to time!" about a man beating his wife... because people show some signs of valuing emotion/valuing their relationship they must fully value their emotions/relationships and it's bullshit if you say "yeah but he still beats her...".

Nah. If you want to preach logic and reason maybe you should fucking practice it first.

The good and the bad are a packaged deal. The same emotions that spur the desire for goodness also motivate the gleeful killer. The caring of our fellow man can and does lead them to harm and kill them "for their own good." You have no answer for my point that the same feeling of disgust motivates both a desire for justice and a desire for genocide.

No fucking shit I don't have an argument against that BECAUSE I AGREE WITH IT AND THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE CULTIVATING EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE IS JUST AS IMPORTANT (MORESO EVEN) THAN JUST CULTIVATING AN INTELLECTUAL INTELLIGENCE.

Jesus christ.

[Mike Cl]

It simply seems that a healthy, integrated person knows his emotions and understands them--and can think rationally.  We are people and we will and do have emotions.  Can't help it.  What we can help is to keep them in control.  And we can also learn to understand what it means to think rationally--and learn the pitfalls and traps that make us think we are thinking rationally, when we are not.  Humans are made up of both emotions and rational thought, whether or not we like it.

[Shiranu]

It simply seems that a healthy, integrated person knows his emotions and understands them--and can think rationally.  We are people and we will and do have emotions.  Can't help it.  What we can help is to keep them in control.  And we can also learn to understand what it means to think rationally--and learn the pitfalls and traps that make us think we are thinking rationally, when we are not.  Humans are made up of both emotions and rational thought, whether or not we like it.

And that's exactly what I am saying (after the first sentence anyways). I just don't believe that human beings... healthy or not... are born with a perfect understanding of their emotions, how to control them or even really what they always mean.

We can see failure to understand our emotions in how we treat others; we crave their attention and shove them away, we hurt the people we love, we want to live a peaceful life but let hatred dictate our actions. If we are in understanding of our emotions then we can learn to avoid these situations... but so often people do the opposite because they misinterpret what they feel as what they want to feel and act out on it.

Likewise control... even the healthiest and most logical of human loses control of themselves; as Hakurei said we are not at risk of becoming Vulcans any time soon (who lost control of their emotions from time to time as well [which was a key plot point and lesson]). Even the nicest of people can snap. Control of one's emotions is not just a matter of "rational thought" though... otherwise it would never break. People have to learn to control their desire and that is more "basic" of instinct than what takes place in the intellectual part of the brain.

And then there is what emotions even mean or when they should be felt... and this frankly varies from culture to culture. There are times that I am happy that someone in another culture would find insulting and inappropriate. There are things that I might find sad and crippling that other people find joyful in or beneficial motivation. I think almost all humans can agree at the base level what an emotion "means"... but we cant agree as much on what should be done with that meaning or when that meaning is appropriate.

It's understanding these things above that I believe is just as important as being intellectually intelligent; I feel like he maybe thinks I am implying that we should forgo intellectual education and replace it with emotional education and reflection but I am not... no more than saying learning to read and critically interpret literature is as important or moreso than learning mathematics means that I therefor think mathematics shouldn't be taught.

And he/you/everyone may disagree with this, but this is something I feel our society greatly suffers from it's sexism in; men are not encouraged to be emotional (outside of "manly" emotions), and to a smaller extent women should only feel "womanly" emotions. The fact that we have categories of what emotion "belongs" to which sex means that we don't have the slightest of emotional intelligence in our culture. You (he) is mistaking acting and living for emotions as being the same as understanding or cultivating emotions and having a high emotional intelligence.

If there is anything so controversial about these statement that it warranted the shitfest... let me know. But otherwise I am done arguing over this subject if we are not actually going to be addressing what I have said (not aimed at quote). I just don't believe that rational and logical thought are the end all-be all of controlling who we are and making us into "better" people. They are tools to make you a better person; or perhaps they are the legs of a "better person" to stand on... but they are not the better person themselves.