You must love me or else

[Soul]

So I also took the time to see what the mentioned Emilio Matricciani and Liberato De Caro had to say. They didn't even evaluate her claims. They just used mathematical and statistical tools developed for specifically studying deep linguistic aspects of literary texts. And their big conclusion is that she was a talented writer. Proof of God, huh?


In conclusion, what do these findings mean? That Maria Valtorta is such a good writer to be able to modulate the linguistic parameters in so many different ways and as a function of character of the plot and type of literary text, so as to cover almost the entire range of the Italian literature? Or that visions and dictations really occurred and she was only a mystical, very intelligent and talented "writing tool"? Of course, no answer grounded in science can be given to the latter question.

They're saying that Maria Valtorta was able to modulate the linguistic parameters in so many different ways and as a function of character of the plot and type of literary text, so as to cover almost the entire range of the Italian literature, and that it's a possibility she was a writing tool of Jesus and other heavenly persons, because of that feat.

You also deliberately ignored the conclusions of their astronomical and meteorological analysis of her Work. See below.

The richness of narrative elements contained in The Gospel as Revealed to Me (or The Poem of the Man-God) by Maria Valtorta has allowed to pursue both astronomical and meteorological studies, suited to verify as much as possible what she states. Indeed, Maria Valtorta affirmed to have witnessed in mystic visions the life of Jesus, and in particular his three years of public life, reporting detailed descriptions of landscapes, costumes, uses, roads, towns with their buildings (including the Temple in Jerusalem) and streets, rivers, lakes, hills, valleys, plantations, climate and rainfall rainy days, night sky with its constellations, stars and planets in the Holy Land, all information that should belong to a period of 2000 years ago. This is not possible from a rational point of view, but from this study a surprising and unexpected result emerges: Maria Valtorta narration seems to be not a fruit of her fantasy. In fact, thanks to a complex and rigorous astronomical analysis of the narrative elements present in her writings, it has been possible to determine a precise chronology of every event of Jesus' life that she tells us, even if no explicit calendar date is reported in her writings. In particular, this study has led to dating the crucifixion of Jesus in Friday, April 23 of the year 34, a date already proposed by da I. Newton.

Maria Valtorta has also recorded in the EMV the presence of rain and this has suggested to compare her observations with the current meteorological data concerning the number of rainy days in the Holy Land, as recorded by the Israel Meteorological Service (IMS), because this random variable, as shown, seems to be quite independent by the limited climatic changes that have characterized the Holy Land in the last 2000 years. What has emerged is, once more, surprising and unexpected because the annual and even the monthly frequencies of rainy days found in the EMV correspond to what we find today in the IMS data bank. It seems that she has written down observations and facts really happened at the time of Jesus' life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge.

In conclusion, if from one hand the scientific inquire has evidenced all the surprising and unexpected results reported and discussed in this paper, on the other hand our actual scientific knowledge cannot readily explain how these results are possible.

You also ignored the conclusion by Prof. Leo A. Brodeur, M.A., Lèsl., Ph.D., H.Sc.D. Here is one prominent excerpt he wrote:

Arguments for a Supernatural Origin [For those who state] that Valtorta's writings were not supernatural in origin, did they investigate to see what kind of person Valtorta was? Had they done so, they would have quickly found that she was a good, earnest, devout Catholic, an invalid who had a deep prayer life and lived according to high moral standards. They would have found that she often claimed, explicitly, in no uncertain terms that she was having visions and dictations from Jesus and other heavenly persons, and that she fully realized the gravity of her claims.

Now had her visions and dictations been mere literary forms of her own deliberate invention, she would have been an unscrupulous liar; but this hypothesis is excluded by the testimonies of all the priests and nuns and lay people who knew her.

Or what if Valtorta had been insane and had imagined all those visions and dictations and mistaken them for real mystical occurrences (and thus escaped the accusation of being a hoaxer)? This hypothesis of lunacy falls flat in the light of her daily living during the years that she wrote. Within the limits of her physical handicaps, she functioned very well: she cared for people, kept up-to-date on current world events, wrote coherent, insightful letters, and had a witty, bright, keen mind as observed by all her visitors, some of whom were Church scholars or university educated laymen.

You also ignored Jean Aulagnier's following conclusion, which can found in his book The Diary of Jesus:

Some, even sincere Catholics, may still have doubts about Maria's work. Is it an authentic revelation? Or is it just the roaming imaginations of a suffering mystical soul? After all, her writings could have been no more than personal reactions to her religious upbringing.

It is in this connection that a scientific approach to Maria Valtorta's work was timely. I thus began to analyze her writings with the same method that I had used in my previous historical research, which had yielded such positive results.

First of all, I noticed that Maria Valtorta's work consists of over 700 scenes. More than 600 concern Jesus' Public Ministry alone, which spanned approximately 1200 days. This gives us an average of one scene every second day. I sought to determine whether it would be possible to use these writings to establish a precise chronology of Jesus' Public Ministry.

There were three possibilities.

1. It might be possible to use Maria Valtorta's writings to establish a chronology that would be confirmed by all other historical data on the life of Christ. In this case, my test would 199 be successful. We would have an excellent reason to disregard the possibility that Maria Valtorta's writings were the result of her own imagination.

2. It might be possible to use Maria Valtorta's writings to establish a chronology that was internally consistent, but would contradict known historical facts.

3. It might be impossible to use Maria Valtorta's writings to establish any kind of chronology at all. In the last two cases, my test would fail since Maria Valtorta's writings would have little or no historical value. This, however, still would not mean that Maria Valtorta's writings were merely the fruit of her own imagination, since many mystical writings in the past did not have any particular historical value either. Furthermore, there is already evidence that Maria Valtorta's visions provide an accurate picture of Palestine in Jesus' time. She had never traveled to Israel or perused the literature of experts describing their archeological finds. Her writings were not revised by anyone else. Therefore, there is no explanation for the archeological and geographical accuracy of her writings except an intervention from the beyond. These factors exclude the possibility of a hoax or a mental disorder.

I proceeded with my research, and discovered that it was possible to establish the exact dates of the events described by Maria Valtorta. These dates do match all the historical data found in the Gospels and in other reliable sources. Her writings withstood the test of my complex analytical method, and my book reveals the chronology that I was able to derive.

There is no way that Maria Valtorta could have composed thousands of pages of fiction that would be so historically accurate.She only obtained the average education of well-to-do girls in early 20th century Italy. She never went to a university. She had no reference books at her disposal, except for the Bible and Pope Pius X's catechism. In spite of this, some of the things that she wrote are only known by Biblical scholars and experts on ancient Israel. She did not have a gift for long, involved calculations. Yet, by our standards, the Jewish calendar in Jesus' time was rather complicated, and it is impossible that Maria Valtorta could have imagined, let alone chanced upon, all kinds of chronological details that would stand up to historical scrutiny.[/b]

You also ignored the conclusions by David J. Webster who observed that Valtorta named nine towns and villages that were not discovered until after her death. He posted a landmark 31-page article that fundamentally proves the authenticity of Maria Valtorta's writings. The Poem of the Man-God may be the very first private revelation ever to be scientifically proven genuine. In that article, Webster summarized his findings. See below.

Of the staggering total of all 255 geographical sites from Palestine mentioned in the Poem 79 (all marked * &**) were not listed in the 1939 International Standard Bible Encyclopedia Atlas which represented the scholarship of her day. 62 (all marked **) of these 79 were listed neither by the ISBE Atlas or the 184-page 1968 McMillan Bible Atlas. Where did Maria Valtorta in the mid 1940's get all these names? Are they fictitious? Of those 17 missed by the 1939 ISBE but included in the 1968 MBA, 9 have been confirmed by an "ancient external source." Since then an additional 20 sites have been confirmed in the 1989 HarperCollins Atlas of the Bible. This is a total number of 29 confirmations of the original 79 unknown or obscure geographical 229 sites in Palestine mentioned in the Poem since the ISBE Atlas was published in 1939. 24 of these 29 do not even have an obscure reference in the Bible!

When was the last time you named and described at least nine ancient unknown towns that were not discovered to have existed until years later?

You can find and attempt to refute more conclusions found in A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta's Extraordinary Work.

She was an antisemite too.

I know your source for that lie, and clearly you didn't verify your their claim. Go and cite your source, since you didn't in your last post. I look forward to addressing it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

That's one way to keep the scroll finger fit.

[Cassia]

Thanks, but I have seen enough. Jesus's bar mitzvah, screwdrivers LOL.

Anyway, all the rest is all pure speculation. How do they know what Maria knew or didn't know? She was probably an autist "rain man", lol.

I saw a whole list of dumb shit her "guardian angel" got absolutely historically wrong. He was "a tall, handsome angel with dark brown hair, dark brown eyes, and a white and silver robe". Too bad he wasn't a fat, bald, cigar smoking fucker. You can google her antisemite content yourself. Standard blaming of Jews for Jesus getting nailed up. Without that, no one even gets saved, right? How brilliant are christians?

I will tell you how brilliant. Tomorrow morning busloads of your brothers and sisters will shuffle through a steel and concrete boat-shaped building in Kentucky, looking a stuffed dinosaurs in cages. And in the White House it is a real possibility that generals and cabinet members and congresspersons will gather to "speak in tongues". It is truly a stupidity epidemic. Congratulations. You win!

[Nobody]

Another win for Big Daddy, Junior, and the Spook? 🤣

[Soul]

How do they know what Maria knew or didn't know? She was probably an autist "rain man", lol.

You'd know how they know if you read the analyses I copied and pasted and linked to. And, for your knowledge, naming unknown ancient towns and villages that were later discovered—as Maria Valtorta had done at least nine times, and in her case, they weren't discovered until after her death—is not a recognized feature of autism or savant syndrome.

Thanks, but I have seen enough.

You've shown yourself to be someone only out to seek validation for what you'd rather believe, rather than the truth, and so of course you don't want to attempt to refute the proof in support of Maria Valtorta's writings coming from God, such as Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro's astronomical and meteorological analysis of her Work, and their following conclusions:

Maria Valtorta's narration seems to be not a fruit of her fantasy. In fact, thanks to a complex and rigorous astronomical analysis of the narrative elements present in her writings, it has been possible to determine a precise chronology of every event of Jesus' life that she tells us, even if no explicit calendar date is reported in her writings

It seems that she has written down observations and facts really happened at the time of Jesus' life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge.

...nor attempt to refute the following conclusion by Prof. Leo A. Brodeur, M.A., Lèsl., Ph.D., H.Sc.D:

[For those who state] that Valtorta's writings were not supernatural in origin, did they investigate to see what kind of person Valtorta was? Had they done so, they would have quickly found that she was a good, earnest, devout Catholic, an invalid who had a deep prayer life and lived according to high moral standards. They would have found that she often claimed, explicitly, in no uncertain terms that she was having visions and dictations from Jesus and other heavenly persons, and that she fully realized the gravity of her claims.

Now had her visions and dictations been mere literary forms of her own deliberate invention, she would have been an unscrupulous liar; but this hypothesis is excluded by the testimonies of all the priests and nuns and lay people who knew her.

Or what if Valtorta had been insane and had imagined all those visions and dictations and mistaken them for real mystical occurrences (and thus escaped the accusation of being a hoaxer)? This hypothesis of lunacy falls flat in the light of her daily living during the years that she wrote.

...nor attempt to refute historian Jean Aulagnier's analysis of her Work, and his following conclusions:

Therefore, there is no explanation for the archeological and geographical accuracy of her writings except an intervention from the beyond. These factors exclude the possibility of a hoax or a mental disorder.

There is no way that Maria Valtorta could have composed thousands of pages of fiction that would be so historically accurate.

...nor attempt to refute David J. Webster's analysis of her Work, and what he observed which, for example, was that Maria Valtorta named at least nine unknown ancient towns and villages that were not discovered until after her death.

You can google her antisemite content yourself.

It's your responsibility to cite your source when you reference them, and you didn't. And, I've already read all of Maria Valtorta's writings, as well as know where you read the accusation that she was an anti-semite, just as I know you didn't bother to verify that claim by your source out of bias. If you were an honest objective investigator, you would've found your source's claim to be false.

[Cassia]

Soul,
Again, there is nothing here but claims of personal revelation from supernatural sources. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend that this is never credible evidence? And then we have all the suppositions and interpretations. The first pathetic paper I looked at was so inept that it merely uses literary statistics to conclude basically nothing.

American academic Sandra Miesel found evidence that Valtorta used apocryphal and medieval texts in her work, suggesting her writings were a product of plagiarism.  Add to that a history of mental illness with Valtorta spending the end of her life in a state of catatonic schizophrenia. If her own writing "Hebrew wombs conceive vile perjurers. Roman wombs conceive nothing but heroes" isn't antisemitic enough for you, why am I talking to a fascist?

What is amusing to me is you think the church is conducting a conspiracy, lol. A church with a long tradition of fraud and felony criminal activity. When they conclude a fake, that's really saying something.

Now for the real question. Why do us atheists even spend time chatting with mentally bankrupt apologists. After all, perhaps Jesus was screwed to the cross. Everything is possible in your fantasy world. Congratulations for doing your part in the epidemic of stupidity.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It has to be credible evidence, otherwise the truth would sink in.

[Soul]

Soul,
Again, there is nothing here but claims of personal revelation from supernatural sources.

That's a deliberate lie, because I didn't present claims by Professor Emilio Matricciani, Dr. Liberato De Caro, Prof. Leo A. Brodeur, M.A., Lèsl., Ph.D., H.Sc.D, and historian Jean Aulagnier, and David J. Webster of having personally received dictations and visions from God and other heavenly persons. Rather you know that I presented their analyses on Maria Vatorta's writings, which she claimed have a supernatural origin, and the conclusions they reached.

American academic Sandra Miesel found evidence that Valtorta used apocryphal and medieval texts in her work, suggesting her writings were a product of plagiarism.

Sandra Miesel is an American medievalist, writer, editor and fiction critic, and in this article of hers that you're referring to, she wrote the following:

Despite claiming a purely celestial origin, the Poem somehow incorporates legendary material from the Apocrypha (ex." The Acts of St. Paul and Thecla), The Golden Legend, The Meditations of Pseudo-Bonaventure, the revelations of St. Birgitta, [...]

I would've cited and addressed examples of those, but she didn't present any, and, therefore, what good are those claims, and why did you assert that Miesel had "found evidence" for those claims? Miesel also wrote the following:

(Is she borrowing from Carmen when Mary Magdalen tries to attract Jesus' notice by throwing a rose at him?)

In Bizet's opera Carmen, Carmen throws a red carnation at the soldier Don José in Act I to seduce him and convince him to let her escape after she is arrested for a fight. The Poem of the Man-God consists of visions of scenes from Jesus's life on earth that Maria Valtorta received and described in-depth. The vision that Miesel is referring to is the one received on February 5th, 1945, the chapter titled Jesus on the Lake of Tiberias. Lesson to His Disciples near the Same Town (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 4). Below is an excerpt.

A few small leisure boats, almost the size of a shallop, but fitted with purple canopies and soft cushions, cut across the course of the fishermen's boats. Shouts, bursts of laughter and the smell of perfumes go by with them.

They are full of beautiful women, many merry Romans, some Palestinians and a few Greeks. This I gather so from the words of a thin slender young man, as brown as an almost ripe olive, smartly dressed in a short red tunic, bordered by a heavy Greek fret and held tight at his waist by a belt, which is the masterpiece of a goldsmith. He says: « Hellas is beautiful! But not even my Olympic fatherland has this blue and these flowers. It is really not surprising that the goddesses left it to come here. Let us spread flowers, roses and our compliments to the goddesses, no longer Greek but Judaean...» And he spreads on the women in his boat the petals of magnificent roses and he throws some into a nearby boat.

A Roman replies to him: « Spread them, spread them, Greek! But Venus is with me. I do not spread roses, I pick them from this beautiful mouth. It is sweeter! » And he bends down to kiss the open smiling lips of Mary of Magdala, who is leaning on cushions with her blond head in the lap of the Roman.

In summary, a Greek man (not Mary Magdalene), threw roses on the women in his boat and in another nearby boat of his party (not at Jesus to attract His notice). Therefore, either your source, Miesel, deliberately lied about what Maria Valtorta wrote—especially considering she didn't cite the volume and chapter of this scene that she was referring to—or she has severe poor reading comprehension. You should've first verified your source's claim before presenting it.

Add to that a history of mental illness with Valtorta spending the end of her life in a state of catatonic schizophrenia.

According to Catholic Answers, the following is an alleged quote from Fr. Benedict Groeschel:

Miss Valtorta was a very devout and intelligent person. She spent the last ten years of her life in complete catatonic schizophrenia, unable to speak to anyone. This disease came on her gradually. It's important to realize that the progress of a disease like that may take many years before the acute symptoms occur.

But, there was no link to where that quote can be found, nor any analysis that led to this conclusion of his, and I couldn't find either. Could you?

If her own writing "Hebrew wombs conceive vile perjurers. Roman wombs conceive nothing but heroes" isn't antisemitic enough for you, why am I talking to a fascist?

You're repeating the claim by your source, Miesel, who said the following:

Valtorta repeatedly compares Jews unfavorably with Romans: 'Hebrew wombs conceive vile perjurers. Roman wombs conceive nothing but heroes.' (V: p. 790)

The Poem of the Man-God consists of visions of scenes from Jesus's life on earth that Maria Valtorta received and described in-depth. The vision that Miesel is referring to is the one received on April 14th, 1947, the chapter titled The Apostles Go along the Way of the Cross (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 5). Below is an excerpt.

A group of legionaries, on their way to a nearby inn, meets them, and one watches them and points them out to the others. And they all laugh. And when the poor ill-treated disciples are compelled to pass before them, one of the soldiers leaning against the door addresses them: «Hey! Calvary did not stone you and men have struck you? By Jove! I thought you were more courageous! And that you were not afraid of anything, since you had the courage to climb up there. Have the stones of the mountain not reproached you for being cowardly? And were you so daring as to go up there? I have always seen guilty people run away from the places that reminded them of their sin. Nemesis pursues them. Perhaps she dragged you up there to make you tremble with horror today, since you did not tremble with pity, then.»

A woman, probably the mistress of the tavern, comes to the door and laughs. She has the frightening face of a rascal and she shouts in a shrill voice: «Hebrew women, look at what your wombs produce! Vile perjurers, who come out of their dens when the danger is over! Roman wombs conceive nothing but heroes. Come and drink to the greatness of Rome. Choice wines and beautiful girls.. .» and she goes away, followed by the soldiers, into her dark cave.

A Hebrew woman looks at them—there are some women in the street with amphorae, where one can hear the fountain gurgle near the house of the Supper room—and she takes pity on them. She is an elderly woman. She says to her companions: «They made a mistake... but a whole people did wrong.» She approaches the apostles and greets them: «Peace to you. We do not forget... Tell us only this. Has the Master really risen from the dead?»

«He has risen. We swear to it.»

«Then, be not afraid. He is God, and God will triumph. Peace to you, brothers. And tell the Lord to forgive this people. »

«And we ask you to pray that the people may forgive us and forget the scandal we have given. Women, I, Simon Peter, ask you to forgive me.» And Peter weeps...

« We are mothers and sisters and wives, man. And your sin is that of our sons, brothers and husbands. May the Lord have mercy on everybody. »

In summary, Maria Valtorta was quoting the words of a woman she saw and heard speaking to a group of Hebrew women and Roman legionaries when she wrote, "A woman, probably the mistress of the tavern, comes to the door and laughs. She has the frightening face of a rascal, and she shouts in a shrill voice: 'Hebrew women, look at what your wombs produce! Vile perjurers, who come out of their dens when the danger is over! Roman wombs conceive nothing but heroes. Come and drink to the greatness of Rome. Choice wines and beautiful girls...' and she goes away, followed by the soldiers, into her dark cave." Your source, Miesel, slyly claimed that "Valtorta repeatedly compares Jews unfavorably with Romans", followed by giving an example, which was her own alteration of the quote above, and in such a way in order to make it sound as if it was Maria's own personal opinion: "'Hebrew wombs conceive vile perjurers. Roman wombs conceive nothing but heroes' (V: p. 790). Grade A deceitfulness. And, you should've first verified your source's claim before referencing it.

How do they know what Maria knew or didn't know? She was probably an autist "rain man", lol.

You'd know how they know if you read the analyses I copied and pasted and linked to. And, for your knowledge, naming unknown ancient towns and villages that were later discovered—as Maria Valtorta had done at least nine times, and in her case, they weren't discovered until after her death—is not a recognized feature of autism or savant syndrome.

Thanks, but I have seen enough.

You've shown yourself to be someone only out to seek validation for what you'd rather believe, rather than the truth, and so of course you don't want to attempt to refute the proof in support of Maria Valtorta's writings coming from God, such as Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro's astronomical and meteorological analysis of her Work, and their following conclusions:

Maria Valtorta's narration seems to be not a fruit of her fantasy. In fact, thanks to a complex and rigorous astronomical analysis of the narrative elements present in her writings, it has been possible to determine a precise chronology of every event of Jesus' life that she tells us, even if no explicit calendar date is reported in her writings

It seems that she has written down observations and facts really happened at the time of Jesus' life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge.

...nor attempt to refute the following conclusion by Prof. Leo A. Brodeur, M.A., Lèsl., Ph.D., H.Sc.D:

[For those who state] that Valtorta's writings were not supernatural in origin, did they investigate to see what kind of person Valtorta was? Had they done so, they would have quickly found that she was a good, earnest, devout Catholic, an invalid who had a deep prayer life and lived according to high moral standards. They would have found that she often claimed, explicitly, in no uncertain terms that she was having visions and dictations from Jesus and other heavenly persons, and that she fully realized the gravity of her claims.

Now had her visions and dictations been mere literary forms of her own deliberate invention, she would have been an unscrupulous liar; but this hypothesis is excluded by the testimonies of all the priests and nuns and lay people who knew her.

Or what if Valtorta had been insane and had imagined all those visions and dictations and mistaken them for real mystical occurrences (and thus escaped the accusation of being a hoaxer)? This hypothesis of lunacy falls flat in the light of her daily living during the years that she wrote.

...nor attempt to refute historian Jean Aulagnier's analysis of her Work, and his following conclusions:

Therefore, there is no explanation for the archeological and geographical accuracy of her writings except an intervention from the beyond. These factors exclude the possibility of a hoax or a mental disorder.

There is no way that Maria Valtorta could have composed thousands of pages of fiction that would be so historically accurate.

...nor attempt to refute David J. Webster's analysis of her Work, and what he observed which, for example, was that Maria Valtorta named at least nine unknown ancient towns and villages that were not discovered until after her death.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

ssdd

[Cassia]

You win! I believe in god, I swear I do. In fact, an angel wearing a clown suit came and spoke to me last night. He said Jeebus used his iphone to text god, "father why have we forsaken us". Mr Soul your cut and pasteiness is so awesome. Praise jeebus and thanks to the schitzo mystic Maria.

Will you go away now, LOL. The idiocy never ends.