You must love me or else

[Cassia]

I gotta say, Seth Andrews responded to me several times way back in the days when I was breaking the last vestiges of my catholic guilt chains. Here he very respectably takes this "true christian" guy apart. The guy just doesn't get it. At all. His skull reminds me of general chem lab beaker that you evacuate to create a vacuum.

Nobody can command you to love them. That's not how love works. Yet, god commands you to love him and burns you if don't. That is some sick shit.

I know there are exceptions, however my impression of most hard core religious persons is they not only lack cognitive ability but they struggle with basic morality.

[Nobody]

According to the Bible, we're supposed to love God, but we're also supposed to fear God.
But 1 John 4:18 says "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
So, we can't both love God and fear him too.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You can't spell contradiction without DICK.

[Cassia]

You can't spell contradiction without DICK.

That made me chuckle.

[Soul]

Nobody can command you to love them. That's not how love works. Yet, god commands you to love him and burns you if don't. That is some sick shit.

Nowhere in Scripture is it written that God sends people to Hell against their will. God leaves one free to follow their own will.

[Cassia]

Nowhere in Scripture is it written that God sends people to Hell against their will. God leaves one free to follow their own will.

Oh, look another cult member who doesn't know the babble and is unable to rely on their own intellect as instructed by the book for idiots.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

So no, I don't believe that a 2nd tier Canaanite storm god had to sacrifice himself for a weekend to save me from himself.

[Soul]

Oh, look another cult member who doesn't know the babble and is unable to rely on their own intellect as instructed by the book for idiots.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Notice Jn. 3:18 says nothing about God forcing a person to Hell against their will, nor forcing the free will of a person in general, or judging a person based on choices He forced them to make. Now, the Evangelist, John, gave a summarized but sufficient account of this scene, the minimum necessary for the purpose of bringing people to belief and salvation. On February 24th, 1945, Jesus showed Maria Valtorta this same scene in a vision, which she described at length as a first-hand witness. Jesus, through Maria, His instrument, or "pen", brings this Gospel scene to life, helps one to understand it more and live it out better. Below is an extract.

"I have come to save, not to lose. God did not send His OnlyBegotten Son into the world so that those in the world might be condemned, but that the world might be saved through Him. In the world I have found all the sins, all the heresies, all the idolatries. But can the swallow flying swiftly over dust soil its feathers with it? No. It only takes along the sad roads of the earth a particle of blue sky, and the scent of the sky, it utters a call to rouse men and make them raise their eyes from the mud and follow its flight which returns to the sky. I do likewise. I have come to take you with Me. Come! . . . Who believes in the Only Begotten Son will not be judged. He is already saved, because the Son speaks in his favour to the Father and says: "He loved Me." But it is useless to perform holy deeds, if one does not believe. He has already been judged because he did not believe in the name of the Only-Begotten Son of God. Which is My Name, Nicodemus? »

« Jesus. »

« No. Saviour. I am Salvation. Who does not believe in Me, rejects his salvation and is judged by the eternal Justice. And this is the judgement: "Light was sent to you and to the world, in order to save you, but you and men preferred darkness to light, because you preferred evil actions, which were customary to you, to the good actions that He pointed out to you, that you might follow them and be saints." You hated the Light because evil-doers love darkness for their crimes, and you avoided the Light that It might not illuminate your hidden wounds. I am not referring to you, Nicodemus. But that is the truth. And the punishment will be proportioned to the judgement, both for individuals and for communities. With regard to those who love Me, and practise the truth I teach, and are therefore born in their spirits a second time, by a more genuine birth, I say that they are not afraid of the light, on the contrary they go towards it, because their own light increases the light by which they were enlightened, a reciprocal glory that makes God happy in His children and the children in the Father. No, the children of the Light are not afraid of being enlightened. Nay, in their hearts and by means of their deeds they say: "Not I, He, the Father, He, the Son, He, the Spirit, have worked the good in me. Glory be to them, forever." And from Heaven replies the eternal song of the Three Who love one another in their perfect Unity: "Eternal blessing to you, true son of Our will." (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 1)

[Soul]

According to the Bible, we're supposed to love God, but we're also supposed to fear God.
But 1 John 4:18 says "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
So, we can't both love God and fear him too.

Over the course of several years, a woman named Maria Valtorta received from Jesus visions of scenes from His life on earth, and she described them at length in writing as a first-hand witness. Jesus, through Maria, His instrument, or "pen", brings the Gospel to life, helps one to understand it more and live it out better. He also gave commentary on certain Gospel scenes. On August 13th, 1944, in a transcript dictated to Maria by Jesus, He commented on 1 Jn. 4:18. See below.

The three phases of the salvation of a soul are:

To be thoroughly and strictly honest in order to be able to speak without any fear of being silenced. To be able to speak to a whole crowd so that our apostolic word, addressed to the crowds gathering round our mystical boat, may travel farther and farther, like circles of waves, until it reaches the miry shore, where those who are not interested in knowing the Truth are lying in the mud. That is the first task in order to break the hard crust of the soil and prepare it to receive the seed. It is the hardest task both for him who performs it and for him who receives it, because words, like a sharp ploughshare, must wound the listener in order to open his heart. And I solemnly tell you that the heart of a good apostle is hurt and bleeds because of the grief in having to wound in order to open. But that grief also is prolific. Through the blood and the tears of an apostle waste land becomes fertile.

The second quality: It is necessary to act also where one, less conscious of one's mission, would flee. The apostle must break his back in the effort to extirpate darnel, cough-grass and thorns in order to clear the soil and plough it and then let the power of God and His bounty shine on it like the sun. And at the same time, like a judge and a doctor, he must be severe and merciful, and remain firm in the period of waiting to give the souls time to surmount their crises, to meditate and make up their minds.

Third phase: As soon as a soul that has repented in silence, dares to come shyly towards an apostle, weeping and thinking of its faults, fearing to be driven away, the apostle's heart, must be greater than the sea, more gentle than a mother's heart, more loving than a bride's, and he must open it completely to allow waves of tenderness to flow from it. If you have God, Who is Charity, within you, you will easily find charitable words to be spoken to souls. God will speak in you and on your behalf and like honey dropping from a honeycomb, like balm flowing from a phial, love will reach parched sickened lips; it will reach wounded souls and will be relief and medicine.

You doctors of souls, make sinners love you. Let them taste the flavour of Heavenly Charity and let them become so eager for it, as to seek no other food. Let them feel in your kindness such a relief, as to seek it for all their wounds.

Your charity must free them from all fear, because, as the epistle which you have read today says: "To fear is to expect punishment, and anyone who is afraid is still imperfect in love.'" Neither is he perfect who causes people to be afraid. Do not say: "What have you done?" Do not say: "Go away." Do not say: "You cannot have relish for good love."

Say instead, in My name: "Love and I will forgive you." Say: "Come, Jesus' arms are open." Say: "Enjoy this angelical Bread and this Word and forget the pitch of hell and Satan's sneers." Bear the weakness of other people. An apostle must bear his own and other people's weaknesses, with his own crosses and other people's. And while coming to Me, laden with wounded sheep, encourage the poor stray souls saying: "Everything is forgotten by now"; say: "Be not afraid of the Saviour. He came from Heaven for you, just for you. I am but a bridge to carry you to Him Who is waiting for you, on the other side of the river of penitential absolution, to lead you to His holy pastures, which begin here, on the earth, and continue in Heaven, in everlasting nutritious delightful Beauty."

Here is the comment. It is of little concern to you, sheep faithful to the Good Shepherd. But if in you, little bride, it increases confidence, in the Father (2) it will be greater light in His light as judge, and for many it will be no incentive to come to God. But it will be penetrating and nourishing dew of which I have spoken and which makes withered flowers stand upright again. Raise your heads. Heaven is high above. Go in peace, Mary. The Lord is with you.

──────────

(1) «She» is Mary Magdalene. In order to understand the full meaning of the present Chapter and events referred to therein, please see Chapter 183.

(2) That is, the Spiritual Father of Maria Valtorta. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 2)

[Cassia]

You do realize atheists don't care what the bible or the koran says because we consider it as mythology. You are an atheist as far as Thor is concerned, right? You don't believe Mohammad rode to heaven on a winged horse, do you? Muslims have the same exact arguments you give as do the followers of the Hindu monkey god.

You can do a little research as to the origins of the ancient Hebrew cult and its conversion from polytheism to the current mess of 2000 disagreeing cults, the thousands of conflicting statements in the bible, the actual timeline of when and how the scriptures came to be, the studies that show prayer doesn't work, how the region you are born by chance affects your adopted faith you get indoctrinated into, the complete lack of evidence of anything supernatural, the thousands of failed prophesies.

Of course, getting out of a cult and freeing your mind of nonsense is very difficult. It takes courage not to have all those comforting false answers that you want to be believe are true so badly. I really enjoy our small community of skeptics. We don't have to show each other how "holy" we are.


 

[Soul]

You do realize atheists don't care what the bible or the koran says because we consider it as mythology.

But you care to talk about God and what is written in Scripture.

You are an atheist as far as Thor is concerned, right?

Believing that only one God exists and no other gods exist means that I am a theist, not an atheist, because I hold a belief in a God. Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in God or gods in general, not the belief that gods do not exist.

It takes courage not to have all those comforting false answers that you want to be believe are true so badly.

It takes courage, to the point of becoming prideful, to willfully reject and disobey the will of a God you know to exist. It takes courage to be charitable towards those you find it hard to be charitable to.

We don't have to show each other how "holy" we are.

And God wouldn't want you or anyone to flaunt. As Jesus said, what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart. Was it goodness within your heart that led you to calling me a cult member and an idiot earlier?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Was it goodness within your heart that led you to calling me a cult member and an idiot earlier?

I'd you're the problem here. Don't get mad at people who point out what your babble reads like.

[Soul]

you're the problem here.

How so?

Don't get mad at people who point out what your babble reads like.

I didn't get angry, but rather asked a question regarding what I was called by another forum member.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Duck and dodge.

[Soul]

Duck and dodge.

I was very direct with you. And, you didn't answer my question.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Many of my relatives are snake handlers. A few die every year. More die from "industrial accidents", AKA exploding barns where school age kids work in meth labs. They all go to church, they all "believe in God." Doesn't seem to help.