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Will Putin Invade Ukraine?

Started by Cassia, January 20, 2022, 01:29:34 PM

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Hydra009

I'm a lot less sympathetic to "just following orders" reasoning post-WW2.

Even Putin claims that he had no choice, that Ukraine's decisions forced "desperate measures" (blaming the victim).  It's an obvious transfer of moral culpability and yet another thing reminiscent of Hitler.

At a certain point, my sympathy can no longer be extended, and that point was the deliberate targeting of civilians.  Russian troops are fully aware of this or else they wouldn't refuse orders, as some have.

SoldierofFortune

It always gives me a laugh when any particular ordinary citizen posting on forums uses the pronoun -we- when they are talking about their country.


SoldierofFortune

It also gives me a big laugh when people posting on forums whether or not they agree with some action of any country on the international level.

Hydra009

Catching some Zs (abandoned Russian convoy, free loot for Ukraine)


Hydra009

Free tanks, too.  You know what this calls for?  Road trip!

drunkenshoe

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 27, 2022, 09:14:26 AM
I'm a lot less sympathetic to "just following orders" reasoning post-WW2. ...

If you got that from what I wrote, then you completely misunderstood my point. I clearly wrote about two different group of soldiers. Whatever Putin keep saying is the oldest propaganda in the book. Unless he was talking about his KGB days though. He is likely to know waay more about the other stuff.

High ranking soldiers/officials with power of creating atrocities are really not stupid, you know? That's why they are there. They know who to chose,  or how to play that move if you will. There are many means of measuring/understanding which people in what group is suitable to do what, when. It won't do to put a man with a family after he is drafted in that position. It's stupid. But then, probably an old drill sergeant with certain amount of experience would very often be right about who to put to use/do what, let's say to use thermobaric weaponry or drop a nuke to kill hundreds of thousands of people. These soldiers are trained to commit these atrocities. They are not just drafted men to obey orders. Again because it would be stupid.

"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Hydra009

Are soldiers morally culpable for the orders they carry out?

If yes, then we agree and I must've misread the part about soldiers having no choice.  Apologies.  If no, then we disagree for the reasons stated above.

Cassia

As a student of history, I have noticed a common strategy of sending 2nd rate troops in first as a gauge while holding the elite and more capable troops in reserve. Saddam did this. The US does the opposite. Is that we we are seeing so far?

Hydra009

#144
Quote from: Cassia on February 27, 2022, 12:01:36 PM
As a student of history, I have noticed a common strategy of sending 2nd rate troops in first as a gauge while holding the elite and more capable troops in reserve. Saddam did this. The US does the opposite. Is that we we are seeing so far?
They were trying to rapidly capture Kyiv, which seems like an unlikely strategy with less-capable troops.  And Russian special forces have been involved in the fighting so far.  Either way is possible, I guess, but unless you hear otherwise, wysiwyg.

drunkenshoe

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 27, 2022, 11:51:02 AM
Are soldiers morally culpable for the orders they carry out?

If yes, then we agree and I must've misread the part about soldiers having no choice.  Apologies.  If no, then we disagree for the reasons stated above.

Of course, they are. The position of not having the right to conscientious objection is having 'no choice'. It's all the difference in the world.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp




Shiranu

Quote from: drunkenshoe on February 27, 2022, 03:23:33 AM

Sorry, it became too long. Long story short, I'm just saying that demonising is never a good idea.

It's all good, and I think I agree with essentially all of it as well.

I don't see it as "demonizing" them though to wish them death as they are invading; as soon as they lay down their gun, go back across the border, the war is over, whatever... I have no ill will towards the vast majority of Russian soldiers and do feel bad for them. Poetically I think the closest thing I can really compare it to is sports; when your playing against someone, they are the enemy and you don't think about if they get hurt when you slide in to tackle them or kick near their face... but once the games over you might be close friends. It's demonizing more the job they are doing than the individual themselves.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur