EURISLAM

[pr126]

Eurislam

EURISLAM is an European comparative research project that analyses how the incorporation of Islam in European Member States is influenced by national traditions of identity, citizenship and church-state relations. EURISLAM studies how these traditions have affected interactions between Muslim immigrants and their off-spring and the receiving society. Fieldwork is currently conducted in Belgium, France. Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland and the UK.[/url]

Indicators on Islam
• Allowance of ritual animal slaughtering;
• Allowance of the Islamic call to prayer;
• The number of purpose built mosques with minarets (calculated per 100,000 Muslims);
• The existence of separate cemeteries or cemetery sections for Muslims;
• Allowance of burial without coffin;
• The number of state funded Islamic schools (calculated per 100,000 Muslims);
• The share of costs of Islamic schools that is covered by the state;
• Islamic religious classes in state schools;
• The right of female teachers to wear a headscarf;
• The right of female students in primary and secondary schools to wear a headscarf;
• Islamic religious programs in public broadcasting;
• Imams in the military;
• Imams in prisons;
• The existence and prerogatives of recognized Muslim consultative bodies.

The reality of European Islam is very diverse
.
The differences are related to national, cultural, religious and linguistic elements; they definitely remain important. On the one hand, the ethnic frame of reference remains quite significant, or is on the way to becoming so. And the many distinctions between groups of European Muslims continue to matter even at the level of mosques, and associations in Europe. On the other hand, even the second and third generation of Muslims in Europe have not produced many trans-national Muslims

In reality, there is only one Islam, the one according to the Quran and hadits, the Islam that the immigrants have brought with them.

Domesticated "European" Islam does not exist. As they will find out.

[josephpalazzo]

Thanks for the link

[Baruch]

pr126 - I think you worry too much.  Europe killed G-d before, and can do it again ;-(  Of course casualties will be inevitable ... but then everyone dies eventually anyway.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Sorry, but I play Muslim in Crusader Kings 2, and Europe will hear the word of the Prophet. Allahu Akbar! [emoji13]



Secretly a Warsie.

[pr126]

pr126 - I think you worry too much.  Europe killed G-d before, and can do it again ;-(  Of course casualties will be inevitable ... but then everyone dies eventually anyway.

Yes, you are right. Just get the popcorn and watch from your armchair on the TV. It will be just fine in the end.

but then everyone dies eventually anyway.Yes, I know.
I nearly did last year. Major heart surgery helped to keep me here a little while longer.

[Shiranu]

Yes, you are right. Just get the popcorn and watch from your armchair on the TV. It will be just fine in the end.

Do tell, what is your solution to the problem?

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Do tell, what is your solution to the problem?

Well there are some 70-year-old camps in Poland that could potentially be re-furbished and put back into use.[emoji57]


Secretly a Warsie.

[pr126]

Do tell, what is your solution to the problem?

I do not have any.
Not all problems have solutions.

I can tell you this much. When Europe goes down the toilet, you are next. Then you can come up with a solution.

[Shiranu]

I do not have any.
Not all problems have solutions.

Then how is your armchair doomsday predictions any different?

[pr126]

Then how is your armchair doomsday predictions any different?

I can see the problem ahead, where you cannot.

[Shiranu]

I can see the problem ahead, where you cannot.

Mmhmm.



Still doesn't make your armchair apocalypism any superiour to armchair watching.

[drunkenshoe]

Let's look at the list.

• Allowance of ritual animal slaughtering;
• Allowance of the Islamic call to prayer;
• The number of purpose built mosques with minarets (calculated per 100,000 Muslims);

I don't get why these are problems. Why did they make those laws of freedom of religion? Freedom of religion doesn't count just for Christianity or Judaism. You either have it or don't. If you tell one group they cannot have their way, while the other can...then you are looking for serious conflict and trouble, extreme reactions.

Mosques can be build according to communities. Like Churches. If state does that then they can control and regulate it.

• The existence of separate cemeteries or cemetery sections for Muslims;

I don't get this either. We have Christian cemetaries. Actually we have special cemetaries as Greek Cemetaries and Armenian Cemetaries given to minorities so they could bury their people. They are really old.

They have been mostly used as a weapon in politcial disputes. If I am not mistaken they are being returned one by one to their communities in last years.

• Allowance of burial without coffin;

I actually like this tradition in Islam. It's probably the best it has. I personally find being burried with a coffin with make up wearing clothes that will out live my body decades as tainting the earth.

No, not everybody wants to get cremated. And we cannot tell people what to do with their bodies after they are dead, doesn't matter how silly it sounds to us nonbelievers.

For example, I am planning to be a cadavre. I really don't give a fuck what happens to my body after I'm dead, as long as it is useful to somebody. The idea of their corpse being cut by medical students makes some people wince. And I find that funny. But I cannot tell them what to do with theirs. It's stupid.

• The number of state funded Islamic schools (calculated per 100,000 Muslims);
• The share of costs of Islamic schools that is covered by the state;
• Islamic religious classes in state schools;

The is is the most important one and it is a very good idea; it comes with its own solution. Esp. the state financing these schools. You know why, BECAUSE THEN the European states CAN CONTROL these schools from  their curriculums to who and at what age should they attend.

And so they could prevent -BAN- private ones financed by extremist muslim leaders living in overseas. That would be a very good lawful barrier to dig up and hunt the underground religious islamic schools. Best excuse.

Religoius classes in state schools are bound with other laws in UK, so it is prety ridiculous, I don't see anything to discuss there.

• The right of female teachers to wear a headscarf;

I don't see nothing wrong with this. You cannot tell people what they should wear. For any reason. If a woman covering her head disturbs you, this is something about you, not about her. Majority of those women not just have a problem with it they also DEFEND IT passionately, you westerners need to nail this into your heads. They don't see the world as you do. If you talked to them you would experience this.

Having said that, there could be made some hotlines for women of any age who are forced to covertheir head or wear a burka.

• The right of female students in primary and secondary schools to wear a headscarf;

Should be banned. And that could be done by European state intervening with islamic religious schools; as  said by regulating, financing and allowing them.

What's more, an Islamic argument can be done and supported against this. As you know a lot about Islam and Quran I am sure, you know what I am talking about.

• Islamic religious programs in public broadcasting;

I don't see why not? Are there religious programs for other religions in public broadcasting? Probably. So putting Islam in the mix just helps controlling it, preserve a mainstream moderate approach.

• Imams in the military;
• Imams in prisons;

Military sounds stupid. However, don't forget that Islam spreads the fastest in prisons. If you put imams that will be regulated and answer to the state -like social service- you are again one step ahead of extremism.

• The existence and prerogatives of recognized Muslim consultative bodies.

Same logic goes here. There are many muslims in Europe who are aware that their community should reform to preserve their safety. So nothing difficult to do. Again build a community you can control and closely observe, follow. 'Standardise' Islam. Make laws for it.

See, everything in that list can be turned into some SOLUTION by European governments, IF they can get their arrogant ass down to ground from clouds and treat these minorities as real people; regulate and change their laws. This should have been done decades ago. 

While the first rule for secularism is the seperation of state and religion, the second one is that state intervening to religious instutions in the society.

You cannot just take millions of people from a different culture as workers and then expect them NOT TO HAVE AN IMPACT at your culture at some point.

They will have to take these people seriously and treat them as real European people, IF they really want to stop Islamic extremism. There is no other way. The sooner they act the better.

[Shiranu]

Ouch.

[pr126]

You cannot just take millions of people from a different culture as workers and then expect them NOT TO HAVE AN IMPACT at your culture at some point.

These migrants are not invited "workers".
There is a huge unemployment problem in Europe already.

Most of the migrants are unemployable, without any skills or the host countries language.
The majority will live on welfare until the financial collapse, then crime.
Plunder from the kuffar is lawful. See chapter 8 in the Quran.

[drunkenshoe]

These migrants are not invited workers.

Yes they are. When they are doing the menial jobs, white European born Europeans don't want to do, they are fine. But when they want an identity and recogniition, they are invading; they are a big threat, the end is nigh!

They are also LEGAL. (Illegal ones are irrelevant to our subject anyway.)

You -as the majority of UK- have an unbelivable distorted view on migrants. Because, unfortunately it fits the general culture and constantly heated and hyped up by the media. This gives way to chuck it up every unsolved problem in the country to the migrant problem. And that's bullshit and it is bad for you.

There is a huge unemployment problem in Europe already.

Yeah there is. However, a serious part of unemployment in Europe is coming from Europeans NOT wanting to work in certain jobs. Majority of the population -esp. the young generations- want white collar good paying jobs they cannot have. And they do not wnat to do a lot of jobs. Of course nothing wrong with desiring to have something like that. As long as you get how delusional it is.

If you have a good education and credentials you can have those jobs. One of our members here from UK is a good example. He studied his ass off graduated from a univ -engineering- and got a good job. 

Also, you need to consider the differences beetween how UK AND Europe regards immigrants. UK is culturally one of the worst places in Europe to be an immigrant. First of all it is an island. Its culture is based on class difference far more than other European countries that hosts bigger minority groups from opposite cultures AND a very different kind of 'national' hierarchic class exists.

They cannot come over their own cultural problems of Scottish-Welsh vs English, let alone different minorities.

Most of the migrants are unemployable, without any skills or the host countries language.
The majority will live on welfare until the financial collapse, then crime.
Plunder from the kuffar is lawful. See chapter 8 in the Quran.

I don't know which is more alarming. That you are conflicting yourself with saying that most of these people are unemployable and so get welfare -you get that people need food and shelter right?- OR after 2 lines claiming that they are doing it to plunder the kuffar, because it is lawful in their holly book?

How much do immigrants really claim in benefits?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11255425/How-much-do-immigrants-really-claim-in-benefits.html

The Prime Minister has put restricting benefits to migrants from the European Union at the heart of his renegotiation strategy.

But let’s have a look at the numbers: how many of those who receive welfare payments are EU migrants?
Between 2008 and 2013, the number of EU working age benefit claimants doubled from 65,000 to 130,000.
Data in a House of Commons Library briefing note released on earlier in October show that the majority of non-UK working age benefit claimants are still from outside the EU. And of course, the vast majority of claimants are British.

The charts above and below show that EU claimants are the smallest group receiving either working age benefits or tax credits.

The data from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) and HMRC, also show that the majority of welfare recipients are British.

In 2014, 4.9 million (92.6 per cent) working age benefit claimants were British while only 131,000 (2.5 per cent) were EU nationals. The number of recipients from outside of the UK â€" but not from the EU â€" was 264,000 (five per cent).

Likewise, in the latest data from 2013 for those tax credits, 3.9 million (84.8 per cent) families receiving the benefits were British citizens, 302,000 (6.4 per cent) were EU citizens and 413,000 (8.8 per cent) were from outside of the UK.

But the data do show that among single families receiving either working family tax credit or childs tax credit, the majority of within non-UK claimants are from the EU: 157,600 single families from the EU receive one or both of the benefits while 146,000 of those from outside of the EU do.

Jonathan Portes, directer of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, explained why EU migrants would receive tax credits in the Observer: “Many migrants from the EU … are in low-paid work (including self-employment) and so receive tax credits; as the numbers settling here permanently have grown, and they start having kids, this has become quite a significant phenomenon.”

According to the Roderick McInnes, author of the Commons Library analysis, it is important to note when looking at the data that it does not offer a “complete picture” as the numbers are based on individuals who were not UK nationals when they applied for National Insurance. They could have since applied for British citizenship.

Between 2008 and 2014, the number of benefit claimants increased by more than 130,000. The total number of migrants receiving working age benefits also increased in the last five years from 288,000 in 2008 to 395,000.

But only 113,700 EU migrants were on key out-of-work benefits in February this year of which only 65,000 were on Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA). In February, more than 1.1 million were unemployed although the DWP said last month the figure dropped to below a million for the whole of the UK.

What does this all mean? It suggests that whatever the arguments for and against reducing the number of EU migrants receiving British benefits, delivering such a reduction wouldn’t make a significant difference to the overall welfare bill which is estimated to be £208 billion for the year 2013-14. And seeing as the take-up of benefits among migrants is so small, it’s also worth asking how big of a draw Britain’s welfare system really is.

On the other hand...Britons LOVE benefits AND welfare.

Revealed: thousands of Britons on benefits across EU

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu

- At least 30,000 Britons on unemployment benefit in EU, Guardian research shows
- Unemployed Britons in richer EU states outnumber claimants from those countries in UK
- Helen Pidd searches for the only Briton in Poland claiming benefits

Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.


The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.

There are not only far more Britons drawing benefits in these countries than vice versa, but frequently the benefits elsewhere in Europe are much more generous than in the UK. A Briton in France receives more than three times as much as a jobless French person in the UK.

The research is being published after the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, visited London this month for talks with the prime minister, David Cameron, who is campaigning to “reform” EU freedom of movement as part of his attempt to rewrite the terms of Britain’s EU membership before putting the issue to a referendum in 2017, if he is still in power.

In Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, France and Ireland the number of Britons banking unemployment cheques is almost three times as high as the nationals of those countries receiving parallel UK benefits â€" 23,011 Britons to 8,720 nationals of those nine countries in the UK.

The findings highlight a more nuanced and complex picture across Europe than the simplistic version painted by anti-immigration and anti-EU campaigners led by Ukip and elements in the Conservative party.

About 2.5% of Britons in other EU countries are claiming unemployment benefits â€" the same level as the roughly 65,000 EU nationals claiming jobseeker’s allowance in the UK.


Dr Roxana Barbulescu, researcher on international migration at the University of Sheffield, said the numbers claiming unemployment benefits were minuscule. “Thirty thousand people, or 2.5% of all British nationals, in other EU member states means that the overwhelming majority of Brits abroad as well as European citizens in Britain are not an undue burden for the countries in which they live.”

The data shows an east-west split in the pattern of Britons benefiting from often more generous unemployment payments, as well as a north-south divide.

The picture is quite different for the poorer east European countries which have joined the EU over the past decade, with hardly any Britons drawing unemployment benefits in those countries.

In search of the only Briton in Poland claiming benefits

The figures for nationals of those 10 east European countries drawing jobseeker’s allowance in the UK remain modest, despite the periodical outcries about “benefits tourism”. There are only about 1,000 Romanians and 500 Bulgarians, for example, drawing jobseeker’s allowance in Britain, according to the Department for Work and Pensions. Of the almost 30,000 Britons on unemployment benefits in other EU countries, only 62 are in the 10 countries that have joined since 2004.

The pattern of Britons being treated generously in Scandinavia and northern Europe goes into reverse around the poorer south, with Italians, Spanish and Portuguese out of work in the UK outnumbering the unemployed Britons in those countries by 13,580 to 5,670.

But, with the number of Britons in Spain three times that of Spaniards in Britain, and given the demographic differences between these two groups of migrants, the pressure on Spain’s finances is most likely to be on its health service.

The data appears to belie British complaints amplified in the PM’s speech on immigration in November in which he demanded curbs on freedom of movement in the EU and new measures discriminating between natives and EU citizens in low-paid work, adding that the UK was getting a raw deal from the EU system of citizenship rights and reciprocal social security arrangements.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the European commission president, told the Guardian in December that Cameron could tinker with British law on social security and migrant rights, but that enshrining discrimination in EU law was a no-go area.

British officials concede that the government may have run up against the limits of what it can accomplish with domestic legislation and would need changes at EU level.

Merkel, the most powerful politician in the EU, has made plain to Cameron what senior diplomats in Brussels describe as her “red lines” â€" the untouchability of freedom of movement.

“It’s going to be a very, very hard act [for Cameron] to pull off,” said a diplomat. “The Germans have set their red lines. Others are saying: ‘We’re not changing things just to suit [Britain].’”

Mediation of the British issue will fall to Donald Tusk, who chairs EU summits. The former Polish prime minister will be less than keen to agree concessions affecting the many Poles in Britain â€" at 15,000, the biggest single EU nationality drawing UK jobseeker’s allowance, against just two Britons recorded as receiving Polish unemployment benefit. The task will get harder in 2015 if, as many predict, JarosÅ,aw KaczyÅ,,ski â€" a chippy, bristling rightwing nationalist â€" becomes Poland’s prime minister.


Commenting on the Guardian findings, the EU commissioner for justice, consumers and gender equality, VÄ•ra Jourová, said: “Free movement of our citizens is essential to the European Union. It is a fundamental right and an asset to our union. Free movement of people â€" to work, live and travel in other EU countries â€" is at the core of having a strong single market and it benefits our economy and society. Abuse weakens free movement. Therefore, member states need to tackle abuse decisively where it happens and EU rules provide the tools to do this.”

The data on those receiving unemployment benefit across the EU is just one small snapshot of the immigration and free movement issue. The different countries’ welfare systems vary hugely, complicating efforts at comparison. The payouts offer an approximate equivalent enabling rough comparisons.

According to government figures, there are 2.7 million EU nationals in Britain and 1.3 million UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU.