Dr. Ruth: being naked with a man is like playing in traffic.

Started by Valigarmander, June 10, 2015, 05:16:06 PM

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TomFoolery

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 13, 2015, 05:55:58 AM
I am not dancing around anything. I am going very straight. You are confusing human behaviour WHICH CAN BE MODIFIED, WHICH WE ALREADY HAVE MODIFIED countless times, with some sort of unstoppable, uncontrollable instinct or drive that cannot go back after a switch. This is bullshit. The common behaviour is the way you describe, because all the scoial norms and sexual culture are telling MEN that it is OK that if they don't stop at some point, because it's the way they are 'wired'.

Exactly. If I get mouthy with a man, is it acceptable if I am punched or slapped in the face because, you know, men are naturally more aggressive and testosterone and <insert lame biological excuse here supported>? Of course it's not acceptable and I'm not suggesting that you think it should be, but you're suggesting that I shouldn't be surprised. Poor men! They just can't help how they were made!

These attitudes toward sex and women on an atheist forum truly do shock me. You may say they're rooted in biology, but they've also been largely supported by shitty old religions.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

aitm

Out of all that this is what I picked up:

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 13, 2015, 05:55:58 AM
Overall, we are teaching boys that there are circumstances they are not responsbile for their actions, because they are heterosexual males.

My stance is, and has been: Overall we should be teaching our girls that they are responsible for their behavior, just like guys are, and the consequences of those behaviors may not play out to your liking, just like guys.

Do we tell our daughters don't worry about getting in bed and then asking the guy to stop because he always will? No, we ask our daughters to make sure they want sex before they initiate it.

You prattle on as if the modification of human behavior you are so proud of has already happened when it has  not.  So while we continue to work on that, I suggest that women be aware that asking guys to stop fucking them during the act may not play out as they want it to.

You however seem to want to champion stupid behavior. You want to suggest to people that it is perfectly okay to be fucking stupid and someone else will protect you from your stupidity.

When the behavior of males has "progressed" as you hope it will, then congratulations. Until then, I am teaching my granddaughter that the odds that a guy is going to stop having sex with her just because she ask him to, is not good. It would be far smarter and safer to make sure you want to have sex before you get in bed with him.  You suggest, "don't worry, he'll stop" Yeah, you're the bastion of intelligence there gal.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

drunkenshoe

#62
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 12, 2015, 08:05:59 PM
The issue of consent in the process of intercourse is a whole different beast from consent before intercourse, because now you've got instinct getting in the way of that all-important prefrontal cortex's ability to do higher reasoning. I can't speak to the female side of the equation, but if a man is in the throes, you can't get him to stop masturbating unless you do something to scare the living daylights out of him, much less actual intercourse. It's not a fully voluntary action at that point.

Having sex with someone and masturbating are two completely different things.

When you have sex with someone, you'll see you are aware of all her reactions to what you are doing and the lack of it, any change of course, rythm, reaction. 

So actually in intercourse, people tend to be more aware of themselves, what they are doing, because they are not doing something alone to themselves. It's a team work.

When I am masturbating, I don't need to pay attention to anything else than my pussy. It's a passive toy, I directly engage without any introduction or doubt, I know how to play with it. I know where it is, that's enough. When I am with a man, we go together, start from somewhere-go through an introduction, different phases, I need to be responsive, also active, watch him and get what he likes or don't at that moment; also what I do like or not. That's automatic. It's very easy to recognise.

Unless you just started to come at that moment, a very short process we call orgasm, you are able to stop if you chose to. Even then we are able to draw ourselves back consciously, but yes, the orgasm will be wasted and won't reach it's upmost potential. Yeah it sucks. That's all.

I am sure you know that sometimes when also masturbating, even though you feel very horny and lustful and do everything right, it just doesn't explode the way you want? But it just goes up a little and stays there without reaching the top? And you go, 'eeh shit'. Yeah, just like that.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

aitm

Quote from: TomFoolery on June 13, 2015, 08:27:47 AM
Of course it's not acceptable and I'm not suggesting that you think it should be, but you're suggesting that I shouldn't be surprised.

ah, yes. Insulting someone to his/her face and suggesting that there will be no consequence because there should not be one…very smart of you. Let me know how that works out.

Hey gang, I declare right now that every action will have exactly the re-action you desire because you claim, "it should happen the way I want it to! Woo-Hoo, let's throw up the banner that human behavior has been modified to our liking and we no longer have to work on that!
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

drunkenshoe

#64
Quote from: aitm on June 13, 2015, 08:34:58 AM
Out of all that this is what I picked up:

My stance is, and has been: Overall we should be teaching our girls that they are responsible for their behavior, just like guys are, and the consequences of those behaviors may not play out to your liking, just like guys.

Do we tell our daughters don't worry about getting in bed and then asking the guy to stop because he always will? No, we ask our daughters to make sure they want sex before they initiate it.

You prattle on as if the modification of human behavior you are so proud of has already happened when it has  not.  So while we continue to work on that, I suggest that women be aware that asking guys to stop fucking them during the act may not play out as they want it to.

You however seem to want to champion stupid behavior. You want to suggest to people that it is perfectly okay to be fucking stupid and someone else will protect you from your stupidity.

When the behavior of males has "progressed" as you hope it will, then congratulations. Until then, I am teaching my granddaughter that the odds that a guy is going to stop having sex with her just because she ask him to, is not good. It would be far smarter and safer to make sure you want to have sex before you get in bed with him.  You suggest, "don't worry, he'll stop" Yeah, you're the bastion of intelligence there gal.

No, I haven't suggested such a thing. When did I say anything like "we should NOT teach our daughters to act responsibly, oh I am sure it will turn out good by itself?!" Does that really sound like something that could get out of me?

'Fucking the stupid' is a very large, conformist expression. A woman wanting to go to bed with a man for just one night is fucking stupid? She doesn't want to get marry or even get to know him, but just fuck him. The 60 yr old men got in jail for fucking a 13 year girl who looks like 19 because they didn't even think of asking her age, were they fucking stupid? People picking up strangers from bars and clubs just to fuck for the night, sober or drunk, are fucking stupid? A young man who didn't know that the girl was 14 years old looking way older over 18 when he fucked her with her consent is fucking stupid? People are not perfect, it is highly likley they will make mistakes. That's why it is important to draw basic principles and be conscious to follow them WHATEVER happens and teach this to the youngsters.

I concentrated on male behavioural pattern, because it is supported and defended without considering the other side -instead constantly blaming her- on some made up conditions. This issue is about the perception of heterosexual male sexuality than fucking the stupid or being safe.

I have said this is a progress in time. Not something 'achieved' or 'happened'. There is no past tense accomplishments (-ed) in these subject. It's a constant shaping, something that will go on and on and on. I said 'look how far we come, we wouldn't be able to if it wasn't possible', THEREFORE we can go further. We just need to unlearn and learn again. Raise awareness.

But if we approach and react to this shit with "yeah well you got naked and jumped into bed with him darling, so you can't tell him to stop, sorry, he'd go on, he is a man" bullshit, then we are supporting rape culture and excuse men to rape, not to take any responsibility and give them a licence. And the cycle goes on. That NEVER means we shouldn't teach girls to be careful. However this is something more han girls being responsible or careful.

Because, I reiterate, physically they are able to stop, everyone can and it is just about bothering to be conscious about it, modifying your behaviour, choosing to do it and NOT feeling entitled to go on. And that is something individuals should work on, something that will change by individual struggle. One by one. That's very important. It's something we, people will do by ourselves.

The main unerstanding has to go, then teaching boys and girls will work in time.

"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

aitm

I think this horse is dead, lets change gears and get into the finer arguments of punishment then eh?

Should rape be a single classification?

Is tackling a gal in a parking garage, punching her and then raping her the same punishment as a guy who was asked to stop just before he ejaculated?

If a gal guides a mans member into her because he is clumsy and excited and then they do the hibbity jibbity for a minute or so and then the gal starts thinking about jesus looking down on her and says "stop", is rape that last 10 seconds of him not stopping or do you go back to the point where she willingly guided the penis into her lady parts as the beginning?

Do we ascertain a percentage of who and what part of the act is rape and what part is consensual, or do we come to ask ourselves, "do I want to put this man in jail for 10 years because he didn't stop the last 10 seconds of a consensual sex act up to the point of that last 10 seconds"? I know what you may say DS, and I will say the opposite.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 13, 2015, 05:55:58 AM
I am not dancing around anything. I am going very straight. You are confusing human behaviour WHICH CAN BE MODIFIED, WHICH WE ALREADY HAVE MODIFIED countless times, with some sort of unstoppable, uncontrollable instinct or drive that cannot go back after a switch. This is bullshit. The common behaviour is the way you describe, because all the scoial norms and sexual culture are telling MEN that it is OK that if they don't stop at some point, because it's the way they are 'wired'. They are not 'wired', they are CONDITIONED to feel ENTITLED. Nobody is 'wired'. It's an obsolete idea. Every day science is telling us how much impressionable puppets we are and how getting aware of something; gaining consciousness about something CHANGES things.

In my previous post, I stated that if one of the (potential) sexual partners at any time, even during sex wishes to call it quits, it's the other partners obligation to do so. As soon as consent dissapears, you can't keep having sex without it turning into rape. And I stand by that. Man or woman, doesn't matter, because rape isn't a gender-issue. It's an issue. And in that post I tried my best to keep it as genderneutral as possible, for that reason. Because rape is a violation of basic human rights; it should be looked at from an egalitarian point of view.

I you start bringing gender in the equation, it most often leads to dysfunctional shouting matches. And gender doesn't have to be brought into it at all. I disagree fullheartedly that men in Western culture are being conditioned to feel entitled to getting some. I don't believe Western culture is a 'rape culture' as some claim. As a Belgian, I can only speak for my own country. And subjectively, I will add. However, as someone with a master's degree in sociology, I will state that I have yet to find decent quantifiable evidence that rape is being promoted, swept under the rug, excused or belittled on a societal level in the larger Western Culture.

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But what we are doing all around the world? We are teaching boys that

-he who fucks the most pussy is the champion
I've actually never been taught that. Nor would it, if I were, be a part of rape-culture necessarily if we actually were teaching them that. Not as long as we would also be teaching our children to respect the will and mind of others and to respect boundaries. Which we do, in fact, teach. And which most people, being social, emotional and somewhat rational creatures, come to accept and utilize.

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-shit happened, someone got raped? Oh boys will be boys, she shouldn't have done 'insert bullshit here' (my favourite)
I've never heard this line or anything like it uttered by anyone I know in response to being told of someone being raped. The only time I hear something like this is in discussions about rape, most often by those insisting rape-culture is present in Western societies.

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-they are entitled to come after they got an erection, because they have a cock and that's how cocks work
Actually, I've always been taught that you can only have sex or sexualy tinted actions if the other person you plan on having them with knows about this and is consenting. I've never been taught that my erection entitles me to a discharge. And no-one I know in my environment has ever given me any reason to think they were taught this strange lesson.

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-it is something embarrassing and humiliating to be sexually rejected by a female and that means they are worthless, less of a male
Actually, it's more fair to say that being rejected, both sexually or not sexually, is embarrassing and humiliating. That's not something that I've been taught. That's inate to human behaviour, both for males as for females. If you want someone's approval, love, friendship or body and they say no; that stings. that's normal. And yes, being cognitive creatures we'll ponder on this and it will gnaw at our self-esteem. But no. I've never been institutionalized to think this way.

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-females have a sexual power over them and they should get it anywhere they can with anyone possible, because that's what men do
I don't really understand what you mean with this one.

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-males are fucking morons that would do anything to get into a pussy, so they cannot be held responsible of some consequences
If someone had ever tried to teach me this, I'd have told him/her off for it. We aren't. But we are also not taught we are. And we are not taught that we can't be held responsible for our consequences. I and everyone in my school and everyone in the schools of my friends and families has been taught that our actions have consequences and that we should keep them in mind. We've also always been  taught what rape is and that it's bad.

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-if a girl is enjoying sex openly, she is a 'slut' and should be targeted first and rejection by a 'slut' is the worst one
Never been taught this myself. I'm not saying there aren't people out there who use slut as a derogatory term for women who enjoy having sex or have had sex with multiple partners. Surely there are, and I even suppose it's a widely spread and used term for this even though it's not all that much from where I'm from.
I'll agree that promiscuity can be looked down upon, but in my experience this also goes for men. One of my best friends is what we call him a 'manwhore'. A few of my friends over the years have actually been guys that were a lot more 'succesful' at getting laid than me and some other friends. We sometimes called them manwhores, but in jest.
I've never called anyone a slut, that I can recall. And those who I know have used the word as an insult because they were angry with the girl because they'd just broken up or something. Is slut really used as a way to describe someone in a casual conversation in America? Because I've only had it come up in a heated argument, I think, and even then not much.
What I guess I'm trying to say is that we are taught what the meaning of 'slut' as a word is. And we are also taught that it is a bad word, not to be used lightly if at all. But we are also taught, at least in my experience, not to judge someone on their sexuality or sexual activity; that these matters are the private affairs of this person in question. Kind of like; a person that doesn't dare to takem any risks is seen as 'a pussy'. But we're not taught to actively think of people that don't take risks as pussies.

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-ıf a girl is acting very comfortably, sexually agressive, she is a 'cock tease'
See the above I suppose.
By the way I think people in my environment and me would use the term surefooted or confident. I always thought cock tease was a word used for someone who you are attracted to, but who isn't intent on allowing you to have sex with that person.

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-there are girls to fuck and girls to get marry
No. We are taught that it's okay to date someone or have consensual sex with someone and that if the relationship doesn't work out or the sex doesn't go beyond a one-night stand or something, that's okay too.

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-if  a girl is drunk or dressed in revealing clothes she is asking for rape,
Boys are not being taught this at all, not in Western societies. You question this through a survey in a Western country; I guarantee you boys overwhelmingly reply she isn't asking for rape.

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-it is OK to rape when there is 'temptation' and 'provocation' because then it is not rape
See the above.

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--->Overall, we are teaching boys that there are circumstances they are not responsbile for their actions, because they are heterosexual males.
In reliable surveys throughout the Western world, most people understand what rape is and that it's bad. We look at rape as something horrible, disgusting and just plain terrible. Heterosexual males, like other groups, overwhelmingly disagree with rape. There is no indication that they are taught that just because they are heterosexual or just because they are male their sexual actions don't require consent.

Now I'll state again that rape is horrible.  But the answer isn't 'teach boys to respect women and not to rape'. Because we already do that. We know not to rape. We know what rape is. We know it's bad. We know we need consent. We are taught rape is wrong. Just like murder, violence, lying, stealing, ... We are taught these things are bad. It's in our culture to teach rape is bad. We have laws to unsure rapists get punished. We, as a culture and as societies, think rape is wrong. But alas, it's not something that will ever completely dissapear, I fear. Like murder... Like stealing... And that's not to say we should fighting stop these issues. But saying we live in a rape culture that promotes and encourages rape doesn't help one bit.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

aitm

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on June 13, 2015, 10:12:19 AM
As soon as consent dissapears, you can't keep having sex without it turning into rape

and herein lay the problem. What to you determine the "rape" to be? Is it fucking someone for 10 minutes after they said stop when you already fucked for 20 minutes, (just teasing, I can't last four minutes anymore)?  Is the rape for the last 10 seconds? Is it just the ejaculate she calls the rape part? If we charge a guy for rape, when the beginning of the act was consensual, can we charge the partner as an accomplice to rape as the initiator eh?  Hmmm, what fun.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Hijiri Byakuren

Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: aitm link=topic=7882.msg1078512#msg1078512
Is it fucking someone for 10 minutes after they said stop when you already fucked for 20 minutes?
Yes. Exactly.

Quote
If we charge a guy for rape, when the beginning of the act was consensual, can we charge the partner as an accomplice to rape as the initiator eh?
No. Back then there was consent.

Failing to see The problem.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

TomFoolery

Quote from: aitm on June 13, 2015, 08:40:14 AM
ah, yes. Insulting someone to his/her face and suggesting that there will be no consequence because there should not be one…very smart of you. Let me know how that works out.

So you would really suggest that a man hitting a woman for talking back to him would be an appropriate response because men are wired for that? It's sad that you don't think more highly of your capacity to control yourself.

All you're doing in this thread is making yourself look like an ass and trying to split hairs over what rape should be. Rape starts when consent stops. Period. That includes being too young, too drunk, and/or too mentally incompetent to consent.

If a bipolar, 13 year-old girl who is high on pills gets naked and hops into bed with a 30 year old man, by your own claim she shouldn't be surprised if sex ensues, since she's a little "cock tease" and it's been made clear that men can't help themselves when "women" lead them on.
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

Solitary

I'm so glad the woman and girls I have had sex with actually wanted to and owned their sexuality instead of women's lib men haters. I've never had a woman say no to me, and the ones I called cock teasers were just that, and any man with half a brain in his head would know before he ever got in bed with them naked. Should they be raped, hell no! But rape is not about sex, but control of women, just like men hating women that like to control men, and then claim rape when they started the encounter. Are all women like this? No! Have women that are like this been abused or raped, most likely yes, but some have daddy issues.
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Mermaid

Quote from: Solitary on June 13, 2015, 11:13:52 AM
I'm so glad the woman and girls I have had sex with actually wanted to and owned their sexuality instead of women's lib men haters. I've never had a woman say no to me, and the ones I called cock teasers were just that, and any man with half a brain in his head would know before he ever got in bed with them naked. Should they be raped, hell no! But rape is not about sex, but control of women, just like men hating women that like to control men, and then claim rape when they started the encounter. Are all women like this? No! Have women that are like this been abused or raped, most likely yes, but some have daddy issues.
I...I just...


This leaves me speechless.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

aitm

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on June 13, 2015, 10:57:17 AM

Failing to see The problem.

so, we should charge the guy who fucked a gal consensually for 10 minutes and charge him with rape for the 10 seconds after she said no, with the same crime as the guy who tackles a woman, punches her in the face and rapes her in an ally?
I think I am beginning to understand why you fail to see the problem.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

aitm

I want to get back to this. Seriously, I think this has more interesting points.
If a women invites a man to her house, invites him to bed, guides his penis into her vagina…and openly admits this in court…and then changes her mind and they guy continued for another 20 seconds…how much of "rape" is there? Is this a percentage problem? Is she guilty of being an accomplice to the crime?

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on June 13, 2015, 10:57:17 AM
No. Back then there was consent.
Back then there was consent….back then she helped perpetuate the crime…she is an accomplice to a rape that she facilitated, a condition that did not exist without her involvement.
ac·com·plice
əˈkämpləs/
noun
a person who helps another commit a crime.
synonyms:   partner in crime, associate, accessory, abettor, confederate, collaborator, fellow conspirator, co-conspirator; More

I find this rather interesting. Now see if you can put yourself in the mans position of being charged with the capital crime of rape when 95% of the act was consensual.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust