Independence, or else .

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Well I can still see the same stuff coming to a state near me soon as southern states try to reincarnate the confederacy as they've been trying now for quite some time and our federal government here in the US doesn't take lightly the notion of breakaway states. The last time they tried it got kind of chippy and several monuments were erected to honour the dead and many movies made to show how brave and gallant the confederates were and how cowardly the union was.. blah blah blah...
I know my view is probably unpopular, but I kind of like keeping unions together and ironing out differences through political means. Believe it or not not ALL politicians are cut from the same weaselling cloth..

[josephpalazzo]

Sorry for this loss but it seems that Scotland will have more say on its future if the present government holds to its promise. OTOH, I believe such referendum are not healthy, considering that if every minority in Europe wants independence, Europe will be further fragmented and that's not good.

[Sargon The Grape]

Good. It was never going to end well.

[Solitary]

I kind of like keeping unions together and ironing out differences through political means.

I agree with this for the United States, but I really don't know for Scotland. It's a country not a state. Solitary

[Hydra009]

I agree with this for the United States, but I really don't know for Scotland. It's a country not a state.

So is Wales.

[Jason78]

Anything that separates from imperialist England has to be good! Good luck! Solitary

England was never Imperialist.  The British Imperial era ended with the start of WWI.

Learn your history.

[Jason78]

I'm sorry to hear this.  When one is emotionally invested in an outcome, it's painful to lose a vote like this.  I still don't understand the pros and cons of independence for Scotland, so I have no opinion to offer, but my heart goes out to those who wanted to be free of England.

They voted to join.  They can vote to leave.  It's not like we invaded them and took their land.

[Solitary]

England was never Imperialist.  The British Imperial era ended with the start of WWI.

Learn your history.

Really? And maybe you should read your history if you think England was never Imperialistic. That's beside the point anyway, I was talking about now! Maybe you should watch the news.


http://www.newsweek.com/scottish-socialists-push-yes-vote-smash-british-imperialist-state-271013

Independence Diary: Scottish Socialists Push for Yes Vote to Smash ‘British Imperialist State’

“We want nuclear weapons out of Scotland, out of Britain and abolished across the globe,” one campaigner tells me in Glasgow, also adding that a Yes vote would ensure an end to the “British imperialist state” which has “a long history of pillage and murder across the globe”.

“The Union flag is rightly known as the Butchers Apron,” he adds.

One of the leaflets being handed out gives Scottish voters five reasons to vote Yes to independence, number four on the list being “Stuff David Cameron”. “Voting Yes would mean we never have a Tory government again.”

The other four reasons include ditching nuclear weapons, stopping illegal wars, defending the National Health Service from privatisation and “stopping the bosses”.

The race between pro-independence and pro-union sides is currently too close to call, with last Sunday’s final weekend YouGov poll putting Yes on 46% and No on 47%, with 7% undecided.

[Munch]

They voted to join.  They can vote to leave.  It's not like we invaded them and took their land.

its funny I never thought to study on the lineage of how scotland joined england. I honestly never knew it was a willing decision based on financial issues. But who made the first decision, who approached who first, thus garnering the proposal?

[Shiranu]

They voted to join.  They can vote to leave.  It's not like we invaded them and took their land.

Holy hell, that is a very lopsided interpretation of how it went.

A more accurate description is this; England saw Scotland as a potential threat to their colonial holdings (as did, to a lesser extent, Spain/France) and the three did what they could to keep it from being economically feasible for the Scots to go. The Scots tried anyways and ended up blowing about 1/5th of their entire economy on a failed expedition.

England, fearing Scotland would ally with her rival France, approached Scotland and said, "Hello there, I see you are in need of money... sell us your freedom and we will completely reimburse your loses!". It's not like Scotland came crying to England asking for help.

So yes, Scotland did vote to join, but it was only after the other colonial powers (especially England, who [this may come as a shock] has had a long history of murdering and fucking over Scots) did what they could to hamper them and crash their economy, as well as a bad choice of a few politicians to put all their eggs in one basket.

That said, Scotland did benefit from gaining access to British trade routes and other resources the Empire drew in, so it was probably a positive in the long run.

England was never Imperialist.  The British Imperial era ended with the start of WWI.

Woah, and for a second I thought they had better education standards across the pond... jesus christ that was painful to read.

You realize the British Empire was based out of a place called... England... right? England didn't just magically appear after WW1, it had been a country and empire for quite awhile before...

[Hydra009]

Since there seems to be some serious disagreements over English/Scottish history and a couple questions about the Acts of Unions in particular:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Scotland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707

[Jason78]

Holy hell, that is a very lopsided interpretation of how it went.

A more accurate description is this; England saw Scotland as a potential threat to their colonial holdings (as did, to a lesser extent, Spain/France) and the three did what they could to keep it from being economically feasible for the Scots to go. The Scots tried anyways and ended up blowing about 1/5th of their entire economy on a failed expedition.

England, fearing Scotland would ally with her rival France, approached Scotland and said, "Hello there, I see you are in need of money... sell us your freedom and we will completely reimburse your loses!". It's not like Scotland came crying to England asking for help.

So yes, Scotland did vote to join, but it was only after the other colonial powers (especially England, who [this may come as a shock] has had a long history of murdering and fucking over Scots) did what they could to hamper them and crash their economy, as well as a bad choice of a few politicians to put all their eggs in one basket.

That said, Scotland did benefit from gaining access to British trade routes and other resources the Empire drew in, so it was probably a positive in the long run.

Woah, and for a second I thought they had better education standards across the pond... jesus christ that was painful to read.

You realize the British Empire was based out of a place called... England... right? England didn't just magically appear after WW1, it had been a country and empire for quite awhile before...

Please Mr Foreigner.  Tell me more about the history of the land I grew up in.

[Shiranu]

Says mister, "England was never imperialist."

If I was to say the United states never took part in ww2, would you take anything I had to say about American history seriously,even though I am American and you aren't? Doubtful. But that's what you expect from me, to believe you after that ridiculous statement and very one sided view of how Scotland joined?

And yes, in 2014 foreigners have no access to information on any nation than their own... Lol...

[SGOS]

From over here, it always appeared that England and Scotland managed to get on rather well together.  I would have expected a succession of Ireland before Scotland.  At any rate, we are talking about two civilized western cultures that have been tied together for quite a while, seemingly without major problems.  The division of those wanting independence from those who wish to remain tied is close to even.  That suggests to me that whatever was to be potentially gained or lost by either outcome of this election might be subtle, with either outcome bound to have advantages and disadvantages.  I doubt that either outcome would be either all good or all bad.  The other possibility is that through fear mongering, propaganda, and intimidation, very little logical thought could be involved in the process to make the best practical decision.

While that may sound disrespectful, the fact is that is the way western democracies operate.  Well, it's true of the United States, and for all the bashing we take from the rest of the world for being stupid (a claim I can't disagree with), I don't think we are all that much stupider than other countries.  Maybe a little bit.  But I believe stupidity is inherent in the human race and is a bigger global problem than we would like to admit.

But with a close vote, I doubt that the outcome would be that black and white in regards to good or bad.  I might be wrong.  It's not like England is a totalitarian state.  You could do much worse, and you can always come back to the ballot box again.  These major internal political struggles are seldom resolved without long acrimonious battles, at least that's the way it has been on this side of the Atlantic.

And of course politicians like to divide the country by exaggerating wedge issues and fanning the flames so they have something to campaign on.  They have little interest in resolving the wedge issues.  They purposely keep them alive, because once resolved, they have nothing left to manipulate voter emotion.  Staying angry is what the leaders want from you.  Don't let them do that to you.

I experience about these matters.  I have spent a lifetime living in a fucked up society that has been taught that having your nose constantly out of joint is a sign of great character and depth.  I'm beginning to suspect that what I have been taught might be wrong.

[josephpalazzo]

Please Mr Foreigner.  Tell me more about the history of the land I grew up in.

It is well known that the French conquered England. Parlez-vous frenchie?