Independence, or else .

[Hydra009]

John Muir, one of my favorite people, was born in Scotland. We have national parks because of him. Many of the successful mountain men in this country were Scots. Scots are unique, they have an identity that is recognizable anywhere on earth.

I thought they were englishmen who liked haggis and kilts until a few years ago.  :P  Seriously, there's like barely any difference.  There are more pronounced cultural differences between NYC and upstate New York.

I really don't get the unique culture identity argument.  California has a unique culture.  Hawaii has a unique culture.  Quebec has a unique culture.  Pick a point on the globe and there's a unique culture.  Doesn't necessarily mean we should redraw the political borders to match.

they are a unique people who have the right to be as free and independent as they desire.

...which they were/are.

[josephpalazzo]

I agree that the Scottish should be independent because my experience with them is that they are a hardy, resourceful and intelligent people that can do better on their own than under the auspices of what the ones I knew considered a foreign power. People are capable of rising to the occasion, and that independent and resourceful nature is all the fuel they need to accomplish whatever goals they set out for.

John Muir, one of my favorite people, was born in Scotland. We have national parks because of him. Many of the successful mountain men in this country were Scots. Scots are unique, they have an identity that is recognizable anywhere on earth. they are a unique people who have the right to be as free and independent as they desire.

We believe in the right of a man to choose his own destiny. I believe that a nation, in turn, deserves that right.

Woodrow Wilson???

The Wilsonian doctrine was not altogether successful as it split Europe into dozen of states and the Middle East into states like Iraq that are dysfunctional even as of today. After WW2, there has been a concerted effort in Europe to counter the Wilsonian doctrine by forming a common market, then a eurozone - the next step being a federation of states as what there is in the USA.

Personally I see nationalism along religious fervor - dangerous and destructive. And we see it right now in Scotland as it pits friends against friends, divides families even though the voting is over. Scotland won't be the same, but not along what people thought - that society is forever divided, like the US still is after the Civil War.  There will be hate on both sides, and that is the consequence of this referendum. As I suspected from the start, no good would come of it, and this is exactly what's going on right now.

[stromboli]

Whatever. It all boils down to he said she said at this point. But decrying the national interest or observing from afar doesn't put us in their shoes, which is what I try to do. I agree with Green Bottle's point based on being there and knowing a few Scots, and they were all very much like him in their attitude.

[josephpalazzo]

I was aware, I was making a sarcastic/snide remark about how Canada over-adopted the French language in our Federal system. It turns off a lot of native English speakers who would, in most cases, be better and more qualified for the job than their bilingual counterparts, at least in my field.

We had no problems with trying to beat the culture out of our Aboriginals, yet we went above and beyond to satisfy the French. Politics.

A similar argument is/has been made in the US that certain blacks were hired over whites who supposedly would have been more qualified. The fact is that minorities often take the brunt of being scapegoats and are targeted unjustly, sometimes for centuries. The question that arises here is how much government intervention is needed to right a wrong. It's not an easy question as governments are mirror of humans, with their faults and cracks, and that can easily lead to other injustices or perceptions of injustices.

[josephpalazzo]

Whatever. It all boils down to he said she said at this point. But decrying the national interest or observing from afar doesn't put us in their shoes, which is what I try to do. I agree with Green Bottle's point based on being there and knowing a few Scots, and they were all very much like him in their attitude.

If we ignored the lessons of history, we are bound to repeat them. And nationalism, like religion, has an unenviable historical record. In fact, any ideology that puts itself above human plight will lead to atrocities. This is a lesson that a good part of the inhabitants of this planet has still not digested as we see over and over, atrocities being committed in the name of... fill in the blanks.

[Icarus]

A similar argument is/has been made in the US that certain blacks were hired over whites who supposedly would have been more qualified. The fact is that minorities often take the brunt of being scapegoats and are targeted unjustly, sometimes for centuries. The question that arises here is how much government intervention is needed to right a wrong. It's not an easy question as governments are mirror of humans, with their faults and cracks, and that can easily lead to other injustices or perceptions of injustices.

No..... French qualifying exams are a standard government text. The colour of someones skin is not standard qualifying text. If I can't speak French I'm not allowed to apply for the government job, meaning the pool of applicants is limited to bilingual Canadians before the application process even starts. Make the French requirement optional and the problem is solved (perfectly bilingual government workers already get a $1,500 a year bonus to their pay).   

[josephpalazzo]

No..... French qualifying exams are a standard government text.

That's the present situation. However there was a time in the past, circa 1960's, that the federal jobs were held by unilingual English-speaking Canadians, and it was almost impossible for the French-speaking Canadians to get those federal jobs, hence the adoption of bilingualism to right a wrong.

The colour of someones skin is not standard qualifying text.

You're making the wrong implication of my post: the parallel is not about the color of your skin, but in the fact that French-speaking Canadians and Blacks are both MINORITIES in their respective countries.

If  I can't speak French I'm not allowed to apply for the government job, meaning the pool of applicants is limited to bilingual Canadians before the application process even starts.

If you know this info then there's nothing wrong with you taking French classes so that you can qualify for those jobs.

Make the French requirement optional and the problem is solved (perfectly bilingual government workers already get a $1,500 a year bonus to their pay).   

Perhaps bilingualism has done its job and no longer brings the benefits that it sought initially to bring about, and that would require some further studies. Of course, there would be some political fallout for any politician to undergo such action as it undoubtedly would anger members of the minorities who would see this political action as a threat to them.

[Icarus]

That's the present situation. However there was a time in the past, circa 1960's, that the federal jobs were held by unilingual English-speaking Canadians, and it was almost impossible for the French-speaking Canadians to get those federal jobs, hence the adoption of bilingualism to right a wrong.

Hence the over-adoption of bilingualism that I was talking about.

You're making the wrong implication of my post: the parallel is not about the color of your skin, but in the fact that French-speaking Canadians and Blacks are both MINORITIES in their respective countries.

So are Aboriginals, and again, that didn't stop us from trying to beat it out of them. We're even ignoring the massive fallout that persists today.

If you know this info then there's nothing wrong with you taking French classes so that you can qualify for those jobs.

I was top of my class in grade 3, my parents switched me into late french immersion in grade 4 and by grade 5 they were going to have me fail a grade because I had no aptitude for learning other languages. This may come as news to you but some people have huge problems with learning certain things. It's not a created mental block to other languages but something that has persisted my entire life.
 

Perhaps bilingualism has done its job and no longer brings the benefits that it sought initially to bring about, and that would require some further studies. Of course, there would be some political fallout for any politician to undergo such action as it undoubtedly would anger members of the minorities who would see this political action as a threat to them.

This didn't stop the Quebec separatist movement. English speakers who speak no French but live in Quebec are the minority in Quebec, making them unhappy didn't phase any of the pro-separatist politicians. 

[josephpalazzo]

Hence the over-adoption of bilingualism that I was talking about.

Perhaps, but are their studies that indicate this situation or is it just your personal experience that leads you to this conclusion?

So are Aboriginals, and again, that didn't stop us from trying to beat it out of them. We're even ignoring the massive fallout that persists today.

Indeed, Aboriginals form minorities, and as such, were/are vulnerable to the whims of the majority. Past injustices certainly do not justify the paralysis of the majority, and it's up to the government to wake up and implement policies that can rectify this ugly situation.

I was top of my class in grade 3, my parents switched me into late french immersion in grade 4 and by grade 5 they were going to have me fail a grade because I had no aptitude for learning other languages. This may come as news to you but some people have huge problems with learning certain things. It's not a created mental block to other languages but something that has persisted my entire life.
 

It's unfortunate, but can you not find jobs in other sectors than the federal government? It's a good thing you don't live in Switzerland where government workers are required to know German, French, Italian, along with English - though the latter is not required but strongly recommended.

This didn't stop the Quebec separatist movement. English speakers who speak no French but live in Quebec are the minority in Quebec, making them unhappy didn't phase any of the pro-separatist politicians. 

In many ways, it's a similar situation as in Scotland: the people are divided on the question, do you seek independence or stay in the union. As I said in earlier posts, I regard nationalism as dangerous and destructive. I tend to lean towards unity, with the understanding that the majority must make major concessions to the minorities so that they feel welcomed and secured.

[Icarus]

Perhaps, but are their studies that indicate this situation or is it just your personal experience that leads you to this conclusion?

The government advertises it on their website.
http://jobs-emplois.gc.ca/centres/inside-ausein/ol-lo-eng.htm
They don't have a direct breakdown by level within the government, they usually advertise the requirements on the specific job posting.

It's unfortunate, but can you not find jobs in other sectors than the federal government? It's a good thing you don't live in Switzerland where government workers are required to know German, French, Italian, along with English - though the latter is not required but strongly recommended.

That's the thing, I have a job in Academia at the moment and could easily find a job in the private sector if I wanted to be chained down to projects that aren't very interesting. In later life I would like to work in a less demanding sector, like the Federal government, but all the jobs I've seen posted have French requirements. This is what I was talking about when I said they're missing out by restricting applicants. Yes, I'm very glad I don't live in Switzerland.

In many ways, it's a similar situation as in Scotland: the people are divided on the question, do you seek independence or stay in the union. As I said in earlier posts, I regard nationalism as dangerous and destructive. I tend to lean towards unity, with the understanding that the majority must make major concessions to the minorities so that they feel welcomed and secured.

Pretty much, except the Scots and Brits have no boundaries for working in the Government as they speak the same language (some of the accents might make it a little difficult though).

[josephpalazzo]

The government advertises it on their website.
http://jobs-emplois.gc.ca/centres/inside-ausein/ol-lo-eng.htm
They don't have a direct breakdown by level within the government, they usually advertise the requirements on the specific job posting.That's the thing, I have a job in Academia at the moment and could easily find a job in the private sector if I wanted to be chained down to projects that aren't very interesting. In later life I would like to work in a less demanding sector, like the Federal government, but all the jobs I've seen posted have French requirements. This is what I was talking about when I said they're missing out by restricting applicants. Yes, I'm very glad I don't live in Switzerland.
Pretty much, except the Scots and Brits have no boundaries for working in the Government as they speak the same language (some of the accents might make it a little difficult though).

I speak quite fluently English, French, Italian and a tinge of Spanish. In my early school days I learned for 4 years Latin - though I remember little of it. I cannot stress enough the value of learning several languages. I hope you find a job that will satisfy you, as there are no replacement that can bring you more satisfaction than doing what motivates you the most.

[Icarus]

I speak quite fluently English, French, Italian and a tinge of Spanish. In my early school days I learned for 4 years Latin - though I remember little of it. I cannot stress enough the value of learning several languages. I hope you find a job that will satisfy you, as there are no replacement that can bring you more satisfaction than doing what motivates you the most.

I learned the languages of Biology, Biochemistry, Organic Chemistry and Bioinformatics. Other languages aren't as interesting or useful. I guess French would be useful but I would learn it then never use it except on the qualifying test.

[josephpalazzo]

I learned the languages of Biology, Biochemistry, Organic Chemistry and Bioinformatics. Other languages aren't as interesting or useful. I guess French would be useful but I would learn it then never use it except on the qualifying test.

With those credentials, what about a job in academia, or is that not suitable to you?

[Icarus]

With those credentials, what about a job in academia, or is that not suitable to you?

Look 2 of my posts back, in the 2nd paragraph.

[josephpalazzo]

Look 2 of my posts back, in the 2nd paragraph.

Yes, my apologies.

So your complain is based on your wish to have a less demanding job by taking a post with the federal government? Hmmmm... I'm sure many only wish to be so unfortunate as you are, LOL.