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Christian experiencer testimony

Started by NagaMorningstar, December 12, 2022, 09:23:07 PM

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NagaMorningstar

Quote from: Blackleaf on December 13, 2022, 06:26:17 PMI have an open mind. I just don't believe everything people tell me. Demonstrate that what you're saying is true, and I'll believe it. But if you expect me to just "have faith," nah. I don't believe things for no reason.

You know I can't. It is understandable to doubt me from your perspective but I'm not lying

Mr.Obvious

#31
Welcome to our little band of heathens.

Evidence for "the possibility of" a god existing is like saying evidence for "The possibility of" the easter bunny existing. Imho.

I mean. One might say: bunnies exist. Eggs exist. Chocolate eggs exist. Stories about the easter bunny exist. Egg hunts exist.
All these things imply that it is possible some easter bunny, in some way, exists in reality. It doesn't say it actually does exist. It just says, it doesn't make it 'impossible'.
But that's not a good way of going about things.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

NagaMorningstar

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on December 13, 2022, 06:58:33 PMWelcome to our little band of heathens.

Evidence for "the possibility of" a god existing is like saying evidence for "The possibility of" the easter bunny existing. Imho.

I mean. One might say: bunnies exist. Eggs exist. Chocolate eggs exist. Stories about the easter bunny exist. Egg hunts exist.
All these things imply that it is possible some easter bunny, in some way, exists in reality. It doesn't say it actually does exist. It just says, it doesn't make it 'impossible'.
But that's not a good way of going about things.

Seeing God really isn't the same as seeing the Easter bunny. One has many people reporting him and it is passed down in book that is thousands of years old while I've never heard of anyone seeing the Easter bunny or especially having a holy experience from it.

Mike Cl

Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 03:15:25 PMDo you think we Bible characters experienced God they were schizophrenic? I've even heard people say it was due to being on drugs but these just aren't true. I don't blame you for not believing because when I was an atheist I didn't think anything like this was even possible so just couldn't enter my worldview so gets dismissed as hallucination/delusion or it is just an anecdote.
Yeah, I do.  Richard Carrier in his book--On The Historicity of Jesus--writes about schizophrenia and schizotypal people; the subject goes on for over 10 pages and many footnotes.  Those with schizophrenia in that area of the world were often considered holy and that they channeled messages from heaven.  Schizotypal people were normal people with a high propensity to hallucinate nearly as easily as a schizophrenic but are not prone to being disabled by it.  In fact, they have been shown to reduce their anxiety levels and thus have a positive experience.  Modern cultures tend to look down upon schizophrenia at all levels.  Where we find cultures that embrace hallucinators and integrate them into that culture, even giving them leadership roles, we find they tend to congregate and socialize.

The above is just a small sampling of Carrier's writing on the subject.  So, I do see you as fitting into this category--a normal who hallucinates but is not frightened by it and embraces it. I do not hallucinate and would probably be bothered by it.  I still suggest you seek professional help--your hallucinations do not prove the spiritual world exists or that you are a holy man.       
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

NagaMorningstar

Quote from: Mike Cl on December 13, 2022, 08:38:35 PMYeah, I do.  Richard Carrier in his book--On The Historicity of Jesus--writes about schizophrenia and schizotypal people; the subject goes on for over 10 pages and many footnotes.  Those with schizophrenia in that area of the world were often considered holy and that they channeled messages from heaven.  Schizotypal people were normal people with a high propensity to hallucinate nearly as easily as a schizophrenic but are not prone to being disabled by it.  In fact, they have been shown to reduce their anxiety levels and thus have a positive experience.  Modern cultures tend to look down upon schizophrenia at all levels.  Where we find cultures that embrace hallucinators and integrate them into that culture, even giving them leadership roles, we find they tend to congregate and socialize.

The above is just a small sampling of Carrier's writing on the subject.  So, I do see you as fitting into this category--a normal who hallucinates but is not frightened by it and embraces it. I do not hallucinate and would probably be bothered by it.  I still suggest you seek professional help--your hallucinations do not prove the spiritual world exists or that you are a holy man.       

I do agree that people having spiritual experiences or just hearing spirits could be diagnosed with schizophrenia but to me that is just a condemnation of the state of modern psych medical field. What I experienced isn't hallucinations but I don't know how to tell you otherwise except what I have is beyond having visons.

Cassia

Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 09:07:59 PMI do agree that people having spiritual experiences or just hearing spirits could be diagnosed with schizophrenia but to me that is just a condemnation of the state of modern psych medical field. What I experienced isn't hallucinations but I don't know how to tell you otherwise except what I have is beyond having visons.
Well, aren't you special.

Mike Cl

Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 09:07:59 PMI do agree that people having spiritual experiences or just hearing spirits could be diagnosed with schizophrenia but to me that is just a condemnation of the state of modern psych medical field. What I experienced isn't hallucinations but I don't know how to tell you otherwise except what I have is beyond having visons.
But I was not talking about the current state of the medical field.  In the day of Jesus (when was supposed to have lived) schizophrenia was not looked down upon or considered crazy.  It was, in the cultures of the area, looked upon quite differently--you were a prophet and were often leaders who were thought to be touched by god from time to time to deliver messages.  If you were to be teleported back to that time and area, you would have been a prophet and you could have written your own scripture. In this culture I think you should still seek professional help. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Blackleaf

Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 06:28:22 PMYou know I can't. It is understandable to doubt me from your perspective but I'm not lying

Just because I don't believe you doesn't mean I think you're lying. There are more than just two possibilities.

1. You're telling the truth.

2. You're lying.

3. You're mistaken.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 08:20:56 PMSeeing God really isn't the same as seeing the Easter bunny. One has many people reporting him and it is passed down in book that is thousands of years old while I've never heard of anyone seeing the Easter bunny or especially having a holy experience from it.

Didn't i read somewhere in this thread, as i skimmed it, that you say you've seen gnomes?
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

NagaMorningstar

Quote from: Mike Cl on December 13, 2022, 10:06:33 PMBut I was not talking about the current state of the medical field.  In the day of Jesus (when was supposed to have lived) schizophrenia was not looked down upon or considered crazy.  It was, in the cultures of the area, looked upon quite differently--you were a prophet and were often leaders who were thought to be touched by god from time to time to deliver messages.  If you were to be teleported back to that time and area, you would have been a prophet and you could have written your own scripture. In this culture I think you should still seek professional help. 

I have been in a prophetic state when I saw God but I disagree about writing my own scripture, those are divinely inspired where you receive information. I would just be talking on my own mind like I am now.

NagaMorningstar

#40
Yes. Gnomes, fairies, reptilians, shadow people, witches, vamps, etc

Mr.Obvious

And you would agree those are akin to the category of the easter bunny?
At the very least in the public's eye? For the chief part?

I mean regardless of the fact that i don't find your reasons for differentiating between a deity and a magical bunny compelling. You would agree most people would not ascribe those reasons applicable to gnomes, vampires and what-have-you?
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

NagaMorningstar

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on December 14, 2022, 11:16:21 AMAnd you would agree those are akin to the category of the easter bunny?
At the very least in the public's eye? For the chief part?

I mean regardless of the fact that i don't find your reasons for differentiating between a deity and a magical bunny compelling. You would agree most people would not ascribe those reasons applicable to gnomes, vampires and what-have-you?

I understand your position as I used to be atheist myself and wouldn't have believed me because I would've thought it impossible. In Iceland over half of people believe in gnomes but I think they also have a high rate of atheism.

Mike Cl

Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 10:29:24 AMI have been in a prophetic state when I saw God but I disagree about writing my own scripture, those are divinely inspired where you receive information. I would just be talking on my own mind like I am now.
That is simply bullshit--and you don't listen very well.  I said if you were sent back 2000 yrs. you would be a prophet and you could have written your own scripture.  That is how all scripture was crafted/created.  There was no divine then and there is no divine now.  You have always been talking in your own mind, for the hallucinations you had were in your mind and nowhere else.  You created whatever divinity there is--which was in your own mind.  Nothing divine has ever existed; it is simply made up stuff for propaganda purposes.  You can believe what you want, but you not a single shred of evidence to back it up.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 11:28:36 AMI understand your position as I used to be atheist myself and wouldn't have believed me because I would've thought it impossible. In Iceland over half of people believe in gnomes but I think they also have a high rate of atheism.

Firstly, that's hardly an answer to my question. But still, secondly, if you are referring to those decade and a half old surveys, for a source of that claim, i do suggest you also look into the criticism on said surveys. Especially seeing as they don't match the consistent surveys going back to over a century before.

Regardless of one half of iceland not being a substantial blip on the grand count of the global population. (And thats coming froms someone from a tiny country as is.)

Not that it really matters all that much. To be honest. But i studied sociology and as such, such misrepresentations and faulty surveys are a pet peeve of mine.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.