I was raised Christian but became atheist for 15 years after reading gospels while studying science/mythology in college. Then I started believing again and shortly afterward, I had the 3 day overcoming/victory experience described in Bible. My heart caught on fire for 3 days (rev 2:28, 2 Peter 1:19) and I saw Jesus with eyes of fire and fell flat on my face after hearing a voice like Ezekiel did (rev 1:14-15). Later I sat in throne next to God (rev 3:21; gen 32:30) and I've seen many other supernatural events/beings like shadow people.
Evidence for possibility of God existing besides my experience report and that of many others:
Gödel's formal proof of God which has been verified on computer
simulation theory
astral projection, near death experiences, and shared death experiences show you're more than physical body
Not impressed--not in the least. You clearly chose to reject critical thinking and simply chose to believe in a fiction. Not impressed.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 12, 2022, 10:12:46 PMNot impressed--not in the least. You clearly chose to reject critical thinking and simply chose to believe in a fiction. Not impressed.
I did originally choose to believe after being an atheist after being raised a believer. I but after having had the supernatural experiences, it is no longer a choice. I don't even know how I could not believe at this point after what I've seen.
Interesting to use "naga" in their handle, which means "snake".
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 12, 2022, 10:24:33 PMI did originally choose to believe after being an atheist after being raised a believer. I but after having had the supernatural experiences, it is no longer a choice. I don't even know how I could not believe at this point after what I've seen.
You then, are hopelessly lost. You should go to a shrink and see if you can cured. You can't see that now, for you have chosen to become knowingly blind--you can no longer see or understand the truth of the universe; but very best you can hope for is to keep on feeding the bank account of the 'spiritual' thief you owe allegiance to. It has been said--there is a sucker born every minute. How does it feel to be one???
Quote from: Dark Lightning on December 12, 2022, 10:25:05 PMInteresting to use "naga" in their handle, which means "snake".
That name 'naga' did remind me of Riki Tivi Tavi where the cobras are named Nag and Nagaina (did not remember the names so I had to look it up)--wouldn't that be names for a male snake and female snake---snake and snakeette?
Quote from: Dark Lightning on December 12, 2022, 10:25:05 PMInteresting to use "naga" in their handle, which means "snake".
Thanks for noticing. It does indeed mean serpent as the holy serpent is god/messiah:
"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up"
John 3:14
Jesus made a pun in Matthew 7:10 on Hebrew word "nun" which means fish in Aramaic and serpent in Egyptian.
Serpent is associated with wisdom and immortality due to shedding skin and only became unholy when it was being ridden by the evil goat angel. I also chose that word because I used to do Brazilian jiu jitsu and wrestling and competed in NAGA (North American grappling) tournaments. It is interesting that when Jacob was wrestling with a man when he saw face of God in book of genesis, he is said to have been wrestling Satan as samael the goat.
There is another verse where Jesus talks about having faith the size of mustard seed to move mountains and I found that, in Sanskrit, naga means unmoving or mountain (and serpent). I've seen one during my overcoming experience before I saw Jesus.
The other part of my name, morning star, is the heart catching on fire for the 3 days of overcoming (2 Peter 1:19) as images of sacred heart of Jesus show. In rev 22:16, Jesus said he is the morning star.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 12, 2022, 10:57:27 PMThat name 'naga' did remind me of Riki Tivi Tavi where the cobras are named Nag and Nagaina (did not remember the names so I had to look it up)--wouldn't that be names for a male snake and female snake---snake and snakeette?
That is what Wikipedia says...the female naga are called Nagi or nagini
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 12, 2022, 10:53:09 PMYou then, are hopelessly lost. You should go to a shrink and see if you can cured. You can't see that now, for you have chosen to become knowingly blind--you can no longer see or understand the truth of the universe; but very best you can hope for is to keep on feeding the bank account of the 'spiritual' thief you owe allegiance to. It has been said--there is a sucker born every minute. How does it feel to be one???
How am I feeding anyone'a bank account? I don't have any money and haven't been in a church in like 20 years outside of a wedding.
I've learned way more of the truth of the universe since seeing God than I did when I was an atheist but that is when I learned the most science stuff too. There is more to the world than science can talk about but I don't expect you to believe that as I wouldn't have when I was an atheist. I thought anything supernatural was impossible and everyone that had spiritual experiences was just hallucinating or something.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 12, 2022, 11:00:11 PMHow am I feeding anyone'a bank account? I don't have any money and haven't been in a church in like 20 years outside of a wedding.
I've learned way more of the truth of the universe since seeing God than I did when I was an atheist but that is when I learned the most science stuff too. There is more to the world than science can talk about but I don't expect you to believe that as I wouldn't have when I was an atheist. I thought anything supernatural was impossible and everyone that had spiritual experiences was just hallucinating or something.
Actually, you have engaged more than the typical drive-by. So................my journey in search of the spiritual side of things was fairly intense for about a decade. I wanted (wanted and wanted.........)to get in touch with god. I have read the bible from start to finish at least twice; read several standard text books still used in many seminaries. Joined a church, was board president and vice president and was on the board for 3 years. I was very active in doing whatever that little church needed. I begged myself to find god--but that isn't how things turned out. The more deeply I researched, talked to people and went into myself, the less I believed that god existed. Finally I came to the conclusion that neither god nor Jesus were real. That is where I am today--both are pretty easy to see as shams, fiction, propaganda used to scam money out of a large number of people. And it has been wildly successful! Now, I don't 'believe' in anything. For example, I don't believe the sun will rise tomorrow; I know it will based on billions of 'sunrises'. And I know that that will not always be so--not because god has anything to do with it, but because that is how the universe works. Supernatural does not exist; if something is beyond nature or outside of nature, then that is because of a 'belief' and has no real facts or data behind it. You people 'believe' and have 'faith' because neither needs to use critical thinking (or thinking at all) or facts or data; you only have to 'believe' and it is so. In a nutshell, that is why I am an atheist.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 12, 2022, 11:25:10 PMActually, you have engaged more than the typical drive-by. So................my journey in search of the spiritual side of things was fairly intense for about a decade. I wanted (wanted and wanted.........)to get in touch with god. I have read the bible from start to finish at least twice; read several standard text books still used in many seminaries. Joined a church, was board president and vice president and was on the board for 3 years. I was very active in doing whatever that little church needed. I begged myself to find god--but that isn't how things turned out. The more deeply I researched, talked to people and went into myself, the less I believed that god existed. Finally I came to the conclusion that neither god nor Jesus were real. That is where I am today--both are pretty easy to see as shams, fiction, propaganda used to scam money out of a large number of people. And it has been wildly successful! Now, I don't 'believe' in anything. For example, I don't believe the sun will rise tomorrow; I know it will based on billions of 'sunrises'. And I know that that will not always be so--not because god has anything to do with it, but because that is how the universe works. Supernatural does not exist; if something is beyond nature or outside of nature, then that is because of a 'belief' and has no real facts or data behind it. You people 'believe' and have 'faith' because neither needs to use critical thinking (or thinking at all) or facts or data; you only have to 'believe' and it is so. In a nutshell, that is why I am an atheist.
I won't deny plenty of churches are used to get money out of people.
I understand Your position as I was an atheist for 15 years but I've experienced God like Bible characters have so I know it is true (and also seen much more like gnomes and shadow and more people which probably sound crazy). I would add that I didn't have any supernatural experiences until after being an atheist (and a lot of suffering like getting deep depression after I lost my faith) and believing again but my biblical overcoming experience specifically started while watching a rabbi's video on Torah/Judaism/kaballah so if you were still interested I would suggest getting into Torah study and Bible does say mysteries will be revealed to you.
As for supernatural, I did mention things like astral projection, near death experiences, and shared death experiences if you want to get into that. These have been studied by scientists.
Anecdotes are not evidence.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 12, 2022, 11:25:10 PMActually, you have engaged more than the typical drive-by. So................my journey in search of the spiritual side of things was fairly intense for about a decade. I wanted (wanted and wanted.........)to get in touch with god. I have read the bible from start to finish at least twice; read several standard text books still used in many seminaries. Joined a church, was board president and vice president and was on the board for 3 years. I was very active in doing whatever that little church needed. I begged myself to find god--but that isn't how things turned out. The more deeply I researched, talked to people and went into myself, the less I believed that god existed. Finally I came to the conclusion that neither god nor Jesus were real. That is where I am today--both are pretty easy to see as shams, fiction, propaganda used to scam money out of a large number of people. And it has been wildly successful! Now, I don't 'believe' in anything. For example, I don't believe the sun will rise tomorrow; I know it will based on billions of 'sunrises'. And I know that that will not always be so--not because god has anything to do with it, but because that is how the universe works. Supernatural does not exist; if something is beyond nature or outside of nature, then that is because of a 'belief' and has no real facts or data behind it. You people 'believe' and have 'faith' because neither needs to use critical thinking (or thinking at all) or facts or data; you only have to 'believe' and it is so. In a nutshell, that is why I am an atheist.
Since you were so religious, I'm curious what *would* you have thought about my experiences when you were a believer? Having experienced the 3 day overcoming of the 144,000 where I saw Jesus with eyes of fire (rev 1:24-15) like Daniel and Ezekiel, got morning star like Jonah and the whale is symbolic of (rev 2:28, 2 Peter 1:19) and later I sat in throne next to God while wrestling like Jacob (rev 3:21 & gen 32:30). Even as an atheist today, you're not curious to the insight I could bring to book of revelation that is regarded as so mystical? For example, I can explain to you meant by "our God is a consuming fire" and "baptism by fire" which is what happens after you see Jesus with eyes of fire.
Quote from: the_antithesis on December 12, 2022, 11:40:44 PMAnecdotes are not evidence.
Actually they are evidence just not so much in a "hard science" type of way. It is difficult to get empirical evidence on things involving the consciousness like near death experiences, shared death experiences, astral projection, dreams, etc (at least as far as we know with public science...I suspect there is secret tech to record consciousness remotely). As for AP, I could refer you to the cia research paper on it when they did the Monroe institute hemisync using binaural beats where they AP'd and encountered reptilians or the many people that AP as a hobby and meet up together in the astral realm. Or the work of dr Eben Alexander who was an atheist neurosurgeon that had NDE while his neocortex wasn't working (in coma from meningitis) so he came up with theory of external signal for consciousness. For shared death experiences where healthy people around the dying person all share the death experience (like an NDE), look up the work of Dr Raymond Moody. With these, you can't just say the experience is product of dying brain because healthy people share the experience.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 12:07:54 AMSince you were so religious, I'm curious what *would* you have thought about my experiences when you were a believer? Having experienced the 3 day overcoming of the 144,000 where I saw Jesus with eyes of fire (rev 1:24-15) like Daniel and Ezekiel, got morning star like Jonah and the whale is symbolic of (rev 2:28, 2 Peter 1:19) and later I sat in throne next to God while wrestling like Jacob (rev 3:21 & gen 32:30). Even as an atheist today, you're not curious to the insight I could bring to book of revelation that is regarded as so mystical? For example, I can explain to you meant by "our God is a consuming fire" and "baptism by fire" which is what happens after you see Jesus with eyes of fire.
I was never 'so religious'. I wanted to be. So, I studied and used my studies to gain access to god. Except the more I studied, the less and less I saw there of any god. This is all manmade stuff. Am I not curious about your 'insight' of Revelations???? No. It is all delusional. If I wanted an insight one can find a great source of those about the bible in the The Metaphysical Bible Dictionary, by Charles Filmore. It offers psychological allegorical explanation's for bibical stories. I can tell you have never studied the history of the development of the bibles (yes, bibles for there isn't one, but many renderings of various and sundry 'holy stories') or the history of the development of what is called christianity. Your delusions are not my way of thinking. Theists don't use critical thinking, considering facts and still don't mind telling me I'm wrong; and then only offer what they, personally, experienced. You are clearly delusional and found your way to your belief system via a mental crisis of some sort. I highly recommend you seek and acquire professional help.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 12:12:41 AMIt is difficult to get empirical evidence on things involving the consciousness like near death experiences, shared death experiences, astral projection, dreams, etc
Convenient.
You can make up anything you want, then.
Just another "magical thinker". They love to claim they were "former atheists" as if that matters to anyone. So the best evidence for god is a mal functioning brain due to a NDE. That checks out.
Quote from: Cassia on December 13, 2022, 11:10:45 AMJust another "magical thinker". They love to claim they were "former atheists" as if that matters to anyone. So the best evidence for god is a mal functioning brain due to a NDE. That checks out.
You ignored shared death experiences which involve the healthy people around the dying person.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 11:28:36 AMYou ignored shared death experiences which involve the healthy people around the dying person.
I think I have heard enough "testimony" in my life, thank you. You are just learning about flawed monkey brains. Let's face it, starting a religion takes almost no effort beyond a seed of nonsense...since our psychology is the perfect soil. Congratulations on being so typical.
2000 years and still not one mountain moved....ho hum..maybe ole god really did make a rock so big he couldn't move it....lol
Word of advice - you are speaking an entirely different language than they do as well as atheists having a massive load of (rightful) suspicion after years and years of people claiming to have discovered "the truth" just to have been full of it and not able to put up even the most basic of argument in favor of their position.
Case in point of the language difference...
Quote from: the_antithesis on December 13, 2022, 10:11:08 AMConvenient.
You can make up anything you want, then.
That's clearly not what you said nor the point, and yet this is how they will interpret it - and this interpretation is based off of experience, so it's also perfectly valid.
"Experienced" events only makes a good language when both parties have experienced the same event.
That verse is wordplay on Sanskrit word "naga" (my username) for "unmoving" and "mountain" which also means "serpent". Root of the Hebrew word for serpent is similar and might be even more connected in Aramaic, not sure.
I saw reptilian during my overcoming experience and god/messiah is said to be the holy serpent (see John 3:14).
There is a bunch of verses in Bible that have wordplay. Another one is when Jesus talks about receiving fish or serpent... the Hebrew letter "nun" means serpent in Egyptian and fish in Aramaic.
Another example would be the letter gimel (G) meaning camel or genitals in Hebrew but in Aramaic is related to word for rope. The verse about camel through eye of needle has several meanings when you study it and only a fundamentalist would only take the Bible at surface/literal level but I didn't want to expect an atheist to think so similar to one. You really must give no credence to holy books, not even on a poetic level (but they have way deeper meanings for those that have experienced it) but they stand test of time for a reason. Dr Oppenheimer for example read the Hindu Vedas in Sanskrit which is why he quoted a Hindu god after making atomic bomb "I am become death"
You can believe whatever you want, but the problem with personal experiences is that they only qualify as evidence to one person: You. I cannot verify your experiences. I don't know you. So why should I care? For all I know, you're experiencing delusions and/or hallucinations, possibly due to a medical condition, such as schizophrenia.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 13, 2022, 03:07:01 PMYou can believe whatever you want, but the problem with personal experiences is that they only qualify as evidence to one person: You. I cannot verify your experiences. I don't know you. So why should I care? For all I know, you're experiencing delusions and/or hallucinations, possibly due to a medical condition, such as schizophrenia.
Do you think we Bible characters experienced God they were schizophrenic? I've even heard people say it was due to being on drugs but these just aren't true. I don't blame you for not believing because when I was an atheist I didn't think anything like this was even possible so just couldn't enter my worldview so gets dismissed as hallucination/delusion or it is just an anecdote.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 03:15:25 PMDo you think we Bible characters experienced God they were schizophrenic? I've even heard people say it was due to being on drugs but these just aren't true. I don't blame you for not believing because when I was an atheist I didn't think anything like this was even possible so just couldn't enter my worldview so gets dismissed as hallucination/delusion or it is just an anecdote.
I assume you mean "the Bible characters," not "we Bible characters." If you consider yourself a Bible character...yeesh.
But no. I don't believe the Bible characters were on drugs. It's more reasonable to think the people who actually wrote the books made those stories up, including the characters. To claim that the characters were hallucinating or experiencing mass delusions already grants the stories more legitimacy than they deserve.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 13, 2022, 03:19:33 PMI assume you mean "the Bible characters," not "we Bible characters." If you consider yourself a Bible character...yeesh.
But no. I don't believe the Bible characters were on drugs. It's more reasonable to think the people who actually wrote the books made those stories up, including the characters. To claim that the characters were hallucinating or experiencing mass delusions already grants the stories more legitimacy than they deserve.
Yes, serious history scholars consider Moses to be pure mythology, for example. The New Testament is an
allegory written to preserve the dignity of Jews with a new start after the destruction of their temple during the Roman-Jewish war...by rehashing their scriptures. Easy to see for example how the crucifix scene was lifted from Psalm 22.
Psalm 22 Verse 1, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", is quoted in Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46
Psalm 22 Verse 7, "They hurl insults, shaking their heads", is quoted in Mark 15:29; Matthew 27:39
Psalm 22 Verse 8, "He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him", is quoted in Matthew 27:43
Psalm 22 Verse 18, "They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment", is quoted in Mark 15:24; Matthew 27:35; Luke 23:34; John 19:24
Psalm 22 Verse 22, "I will declare your name to my people; in the assembly I will praise you", is quoted Hebrews 2:12
In fact, you can barely find anything in the gospels that isn't a quote or rewrite, but you will never hear xtians admit this.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 13, 2022, 03:19:33 PMI assume you mean "the Bible characters," not "we Bible characters." If you consider yourself a Bible character...yeesh.
[/quote
Haha yes. I've had a some of same experiences as Bible characters which is what my post was about and goes to show, to those with an open mind, that Bible is about real spiritual experiences
[/quote
Haha yes. I've had a some of same experiences as Bible characters which is what my post was about and goes to show, to those with an open mind, that Bible is about real spiritual experiences
[/quote]
Nah, the bible is to keep you focused on the fake next life while you take it the hard way in this life. Ah but keep going on your symbological quest and monkey brain pattern recognition. But let me ask, how hard is to prove that prayers work? Are there published studie?. It's easy to prove, right? I mean why aren't the streets of Alabama paved with gold and full of healthy happy people? Yemen is full of the devout. Care to live there?
Then ponder a bit about Ophthalmomyiasis which is the ocular disorder caused by infestation of the human eye with fly larvae. Maggots may be seen in the conjunctival fornix or inside the eye. God's creation. That took some thought by the lord didn't it. Are you thoughtful or are you just gonna be all about psychotic episodes?
Quote from: Cassia on December 13, 2022, 04:36:13 PM[/quote
Haha yes. I've had a some of same experiences as Bible characters which is what my post was about and goes to show, to those with an open mind, that Bible is about real spiritual experiences
Nah, the bible is to keep you focused on the fake next life while you take it the hard way in this life. Ah but keep going on your symbological quest and monkey brain pattern recognition. But let me ask, how hard is to prove that prayers work? Are there published studie?. It's easy to prove, right? I mean why aren't the streets of Alabama paved with gold and full of healthy happy people? Yemen is full of the devout. Care to live there?
Then ponder a bit about Ophthalmomyiasis which is the ocular disorder caused by infestation of the human eye with fly larvae. Maggots may be seen in the conjunctival fornix or inside the eye. God's creation. That took some thought by the lord didn't it. Are you thoughtful or are you just gonna be all about psychotic episodes?
Prayers don't work much for me either even about spiritual stuff let alone getting my streets paved with gold though I haven't tried asking for that
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 04:11:28 PMHaha yes. I've had a some of same experiences as Bible characters which is what my post was about and goes to show, to those with an open mind, that Bible is about real spiritual experiences
I have an open mind. I just don't believe everything people tell me. Demonstrate that what you're saying is true, and I'll believe it. But if you expect me to just "have faith," nah. I don't believe things for no reason.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 13, 2022, 06:26:17 PMI have an open mind. I just don't believe everything people tell me. Demonstrate that what you're saying is true, and I'll believe it. But if you expect me to just "have faith," nah. I don't believe things for no reason.
You know I can't. It is understandable to doubt me from your perspective but I'm not lying
Welcome to our little band of heathens.
Evidence for "the possibility of" a god existing is like saying evidence for "The possibility of" the easter bunny existing. Imho.
I mean. One might say: bunnies exist. Eggs exist. Chocolate eggs exist. Stories about the easter bunny exist. Egg hunts exist.
All these things imply that it is possible some easter bunny, in some way, exists in reality. It doesn't say it actually does exist. It just says, it doesn't make it 'impossible'.
But that's not a good way of going about things.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on December 13, 2022, 06:58:33 PMWelcome to our little band of heathens.
Evidence for "the possibility of" a god existing is like saying evidence for "The possibility of" the easter bunny existing. Imho.
I mean. One might say: bunnies exist. Eggs exist. Chocolate eggs exist. Stories about the easter bunny exist. Egg hunts exist.
All these things imply that it is possible some easter bunny, in some way, exists in reality. It doesn't say it actually does exist. It just says, it doesn't make it 'impossible'.
But that's not a good way of going about things.
Seeing God really isn't the same as seeing the Easter bunny. One has many people reporting him and it is passed down in book that is thousands of years old while I've never heard of anyone seeing the Easter bunny or especially having a holy experience from it.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 03:15:25 PMDo you think we Bible characters experienced God they were schizophrenic? I've even heard people say it was due to being on drugs but these just aren't true. I don't blame you for not believing because when I was an atheist I didn't think anything like this was even possible so just couldn't enter my worldview so gets dismissed as hallucination/delusion or it is just an anecdote.
Yeah, I do. Richard Carrier in his book--On The Historicity of Jesus--writes about schizophrenia and schizotypal people; the subject goes on for over 10 pages and many footnotes. Those with schizophrenia in that area of the world were often considered holy and that they channeled messages from heaven. Schizotypal people were normal people with a high propensity to hallucinate nearly as easily as a schizophrenic but are not prone to being disabled by it. In fact, they have been shown to reduce their anxiety levels and thus have a positive experience. Modern cultures tend to look down upon schizophrenia at all levels. Where we find cultures that embrace hallucinators and integrate them into that culture, even giving them leadership roles, we find they tend to congregate and socialize.
The above is just a small sampling of Carrier's writing on the subject. So, I do see you as fitting into this category--a normal who hallucinates but is not frightened by it and embraces it. I do not hallucinate and would probably be bothered by it. I still suggest you seek professional help--your hallucinations do not prove the spiritual world exists or that you are a holy man.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 13, 2022, 08:38:35 PMYeah, I do. Richard Carrier in his book--On The Historicity of Jesus--writes about schizophrenia and schizotypal people; the subject goes on for over 10 pages and many footnotes. Those with schizophrenia in that area of the world were often considered holy and that they channeled messages from heaven. Schizotypal people were normal people with a high propensity to hallucinate nearly as easily as a schizophrenic but are not prone to being disabled by it. In fact, they have been shown to reduce their anxiety levels and thus have a positive experience. Modern cultures tend to look down upon schizophrenia at all levels. Where we find cultures that embrace hallucinators and integrate them into that culture, even giving them leadership roles, we find they tend to congregate and socialize.
The above is just a small sampling of Carrier's writing on the subject. So, I do see you as fitting into this category--a normal who hallucinates but is not frightened by it and embraces it. I do not hallucinate and would probably be bothered by it. I still suggest you seek professional help--your hallucinations do not prove the spiritual world exists or that you are a holy man.
I do agree that people having spiritual experiences or just hearing spirits could be diagnosed with schizophrenia but to me that is just a condemnation of the state of modern psych medical field. What I experienced isn't hallucinations but I don't know how to tell you otherwise except what I have is beyond having visons.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 09:07:59 PMI do agree that people having spiritual experiences or just hearing spirits could be diagnosed with schizophrenia but to me that is just a condemnation of the state of modern psych medical field. What I experienced isn't hallucinations but I don't know how to tell you otherwise except what I have is beyond having visons.
Well, aren't you special.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 09:07:59 PMI do agree that people having spiritual experiences or just hearing spirits could be diagnosed with schizophrenia but to me that is just a condemnation of the state of modern psych medical field. What I experienced isn't hallucinations but I don't know how to tell you otherwise except what I have is beyond having visons.
But I was not talking about the current state of the medical field. In the day of Jesus (when was supposed to have lived) schizophrenia was not looked down upon or considered crazy. It was, in the cultures of the area, looked upon quite differently--you were a prophet and were often leaders who were thought to be touched by god from time to time to deliver messages. If you were to be teleported back to that time and area, you would have been a prophet and you could have written your own scripture. In this culture I think you should still seek professional help.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 06:28:22 PMYou know I can't. It is understandable to doubt me from your perspective but I'm not lying
Just because I don't believe you doesn't mean I think you're lying. There are more than just two possibilities.
1. You're telling the truth.
2. You're lying.
3. You're mistaken.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 08:20:56 PMSeeing God really isn't the same as seeing the Easter bunny. One has many people reporting him and it is passed down in book that is thousands of years old while I've never heard of anyone seeing the Easter bunny or especially having a holy experience from it.
Didn't i read somewhere in this thread, as i skimmed it, that you say you've seen gnomes?
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 13, 2022, 10:06:33 PMBut I was not talking about the current state of the medical field. In the day of Jesus (when was supposed to have lived) schizophrenia was not looked down upon or considered crazy. It was, in the cultures of the area, looked upon quite differently--you were a prophet and were often leaders who were thought to be touched by god from time to time to deliver messages. If you were to be teleported back to that time and area, you would have been a prophet and you could have written your own scripture. In this culture I think you should still seek professional help.
I have been in a prophetic state when I saw God but I disagree about writing my own scripture, those are divinely inspired where you receive information. I would just be talking on my own mind like I am now.
Yes. Gnomes, fairies, reptilians, shadow people, witches, vamps, etc
And you would agree those are akin to the category of the easter bunny?
At the very least in the public's eye? For the chief part?
I mean regardless of the fact that i don't find your reasons for differentiating between a deity and a magical bunny compelling. You would agree most people would not ascribe those reasons applicable to gnomes, vampires and what-have-you?
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on December 14, 2022, 11:16:21 AMAnd you would agree those are akin to the category of the easter bunny?
At the very least in the public's eye? For the chief part?
I mean regardless of the fact that i don't find your reasons for differentiating between a deity and a magical bunny compelling. You would agree most people would not ascribe those reasons applicable to gnomes, vampires and what-have-you?
I understand your position as I used to be atheist myself and wouldn't have believed me because I would've thought it impossible. In Iceland over half of people believe in gnomes but I think they also have a high rate of atheism.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 10:29:24 AMI have been in a prophetic state when I saw God but I disagree about writing my own scripture, those are divinely inspired where you receive information. I would just be talking on my own mind like I am now.
That is simply bullshit--and you don't listen very well. I said if you were sent back 2000 yrs. you would be a prophet and you could have written your own scripture. That is how all scripture was crafted/created. There was no divine then and there is no divine now. You have always been talking in your own mind, for the hallucinations you had were in your mind and nowhere else. You created whatever divinity there is--which was in your own mind. Nothing divine has ever existed; it is simply made up stuff for propaganda purposes. You can believe what you want, but you not a single shred of evidence to back it up.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 11:28:36 AMI understand your position as I used to be atheist myself and wouldn't have believed me because I would've thought it impossible. In Iceland over half of people believe in gnomes but I think they also have a high rate of atheism.
Firstly, that's hardly an answer to my question. But still, secondly, if you are referring to those decade and a half old surveys, for a source of that claim, i do suggest you also look into the criticism on said surveys. Especially seeing as they don't match the consistent surveys going back to over a century before.
Regardless of one half of iceland not being a substantial blip on the grand count of the global population. (And thats coming froms someone from a tiny country as is.)
Not that it really matters all that much. To be honest. But i studied sociology and as such, such misrepresentations and faulty surveys are a pet peeve of mine.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on December 14, 2022, 12:45:05 PMFirstly, that's hardly an answer to my question. But still, secondly, if you are referring to those decade and a half old surveys, for a source of that claim, i do suggest you also look into the criticism on said surveys. Especially seeing as they don't match the consistent surveys going back to over a century before.
Regardless of one half of iceland not being a substantial blip on the grand count of the global population. (And thats coming froms someone from a tiny country as is.)
Not that it really matters all that much. To be honest. But i studied sociology and as such, such misrepresentations and faulty surveys are a pet peeve of mine.
Not every people has gnomes. The kind shown as garden gnomes come from Northern Europe. There are however different types of "little people" found worldwide and I'm told they don't get along with each other.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 12:48:18 PMNot every people has gnomes. The kind shown as garden gnomes come from Northern Europe. There are however different types of "little people" found worldwide and I'm told they don't get along with each other.
You are so right about that. I am sooooooo tired of the little people battles going on in my area--they raise such a ruckus that it is hard to even think sometimes. Why did god create these things??????
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 12:48:18 PMNot every people has gnomes. The kind shown as garden gnomes come from Northern Europe. There are however different types of "little people" found worldwide and I'm told they don't get along with each other.
Did they tell you that themselves?
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 14, 2022, 12:52:35 PMYou are so right about that. I am sooooooo tired of the little people battles going on in my area--they raise such a ruckus that it is hard to even think sometimes. Why did god create these things??????
Without context, this was a fucking trip.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on December 14, 2022, 01:04:56 PMDid they tell you that themselves?
Yes. More info is During witchcraft trials they were noted to work for Satan. King James of King James Bible wrote a book called demonology about demons, witches, vampires, werewolves, etc and was a witch hunter because he prosecuted them
My reality is far less interesting than NagaMorningstar's.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 01:40:23 PMYes. More info is During witchcraft trials they were noted to work for Satan. King James of King James Bible wrote a book called demonology about demons, witches, vampires, werewolves, etc and was a witch hunter because he prosecuted them
If the little people ever tell you to start hurting 'normal' people, just promise me you'll talk to a shrink about it, before taking action.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on December 14, 2022, 01:54:54 PMIf the little people ever tell you to start hurting 'normal' people, just promise me you'll talk to a shrink about it, before taking action.
I'm not crazy but I understand while you might think that. I would've thought that when I was an atheist. King James of KJV Bible wrote a book about demonology including witches, demons, vamps, werewolves, etc and in his witchcraft trials it was noted gnomes were working for Satan so a Christian should believe this stuff as that is what witchcraft is about.
King James, the author of the worst English translation of the Bible. It barely qualifies as a translation.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 01:40:23 PMYes. More info is During witchcraft trials they were noted to work for Satan. King James of King James Bible wrote a book called demonology about demons, witches, vampires, werewolves, etc and was a witch hunter because he prosecuted them
You seem to be one of the most gullible people I've conversed with. I can tell you have never studied the King James version of the bible. It is called error central and there have been more editions of it than you would believe.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 14, 2022, 03:14:52 PMYou seem to be one of the most gullible people I've conversed with. I can tell you have never studied the King James version of the bible. It is called error central and there have been more editions of it than you would believe.
I read it along with niv, berean and the literal translation. Biblehub.com gives you ability to see all the translations you want then to see the Hebrew and Greek original with the strongs definitions. I think that is the best way to do it. I've also learned a bit of torah and Hebrew. I think KJV is pretty good and actually adds some benefit with poetic translation that only someone initiated by God would truly understand unless maybe someone that was initiated told them.
I don't agree I'm that gullible but definitely way moreso than when I was an atheist. I've just seen and experienced a lot of supernatural stuff to know amazing things are possible. I used to be an atheist for 15 years so I know what it is like to not believe in anything but what scientists say as I would've dismissed all my claims as impossible without even entertaining them or just say they're only anecdotes of hallucinations. It is always "show me the empirical evidence" but with anything involving the mind that is very hard to do.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 03:40:03 PMI read it along with niv, berean and the literal translation. Biblehub.com gives you ability to see all the translations you want then to see the Hebrew and Greek original with the strongs definitions. I think that is the best way to do it. I've also learned a bit of torah and Hebrew. I think KJV is pretty good and actually adds some benefit with poetic translation that only someone initiated by God would truly understand unless maybe someone that was initiated told them.
I don't agree I'm that gullible but definitely way moreso than when I was an atheist. I've just seen and experienced a lot of supernatural stuff to know amazing things are possible. I used to be an atheist for 15 years so I know what it is like to not believe in anything but what scientists say as I would've dismissed all my claims as impossible without even entertaining them or just say they're only anecdotes of hallucinations. It is always "show me the empirical evidence" but with anything involving the mind that is very hard to do.
At least you had 15 yrs. of sanity. You are delusional if you want to understand that or not. This is one of my go-to web sites when I want detailed answers about the NT--An Introduction to
New Testament Textual Criticism --http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/intro.html
Very detailed.
SSDD
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 14, 2022, 06:35:55 PMAt least you had 15 yrs. of sanity. You are delusional if you want to understand that or not. This is one of my go-to web sites when I want detailed answers about the NT--An Introduction to
New Testament Textual Criticism --http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/intro.html
Very detailed.
Actually during that time, 15-20 years ago, I had severe depression so some might call that not sane by this standard.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 07:19:47 PMActually during that time, 15-20 years ago, I had severe depression so some might call that not sane by this standard.
Well, that sucks and seems to become more common lately, maybe somewhat because of the social media overload. Have you tried a hobby where you actually learn about real things? Perhaps building electronics or learning about science? Going down religious experience rabbit holes will just frustrate you because it's fake nonsense and people can never keep their lies straight. Thats why there are 1000s of religions. I mean here you are chatting with atheists who you know will never take you "testimony" as real, right? But we will encourage you to dive into the real wonders of the natural world. Here is a gift. it's my favorite video.
Quote from: Cassia on December 14, 2022, 08:18:41 PMWell, that sucks and seems to become more common lately, maybe somewhat because of the social media overload. Have you tried a hobby where you actually learn about real things? Perhaps building electronics or learning about science? Going down religious experience rabbit holes will just frustrate you because it's fake nonsense and people can never keep their lies straight. Thats why there are 1000s of religions. I mean here you are chatting with atheists who you know will never take you "testimony" as real, right? But we will encourage you to dive into the real wonders of the natural world. Here is a gift. it's my favorite video.
I lost my faith during my science classes in college. I learned a lot of science during those years after I became an atheist, mainly interested in physics and math so I read a bunch of pop science books like krauss, Sagan, Dawkins that also effectively talked about atheism and also read purely physics books like Deutsch on multiverse theory or Seth Lloyd on quantum computing or Stephen hawkings books and others and read a lot online about quantum physics and relativity. Also read books on geometry and math and watched a bunch of lecture series from the teaching company great courses on physics and math.
Learning electronics would be cool, I did want to be a penetration tester and ethical hacker or a programmer as I was a script kiddy when I was like 13-14 on AOL and built my own gaming computer but couldn't follow through with the career change as I was already getting old and it is hard while working full time. I did go to some makerspaces where they demo'd how to build stuff and I built my own palm sized display from from a raspberry kit and went to coding camps and meetups but again didn't follow through, it is a big commitment to do that while working full time and no guarantee of a job anyway.
I've been only reading about spiritual texts since I had all these experiences. One of my favorite books that you might like that contributed to my loss of faith was Joseph Campbell hero with 1000 faces that is about comparative mythology that is based son Carl Jung's work among others. George Lucas cited it as inspiration for making star wars.
For a hobby beyond reading about spiritual stuff, I'd rather get back into Brazilian jiu jitsu or judo and weightlifting as I was a bjj blue belt before I got injured and stopped. I don't know why reading about spiritual stuff would be considered lesser than reading about electronics.
"I've been only reading about spiritual texts since I had all these experiences. " There's your problem.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 14, 2022, 08:39:27 PM"I've been only reading about spiritual texts since I had all these experiences. " There's your problem.
Why is that a problem though compared to if I was reading about electronics? Just because I couldn't be working toward a career change? Electronics is actually a really expensive hobby too
Reading about electronics can be shocking.
But do you recall who had the biggest kill count when the Hebrews (who were never there) left Egypt?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 14, 2022, 10:42:25 PMReading about electronics can be shocking.
But do you recall who had the biggest kill count when the Hebrews (who were never there) left Egypt?
No idea
Not much for reading I see. God killed all the first born of Egyptian families. According to that book you read.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 02:48:28 PMI'm not crazy but I understand while you might think that. I would've thought that when I was an atheist. King James of KJV Bible wrote a book about demonology including witches, demons, vamps, werewolves, etc and in his witchcraft trials it was noted gnomes were working for Satan so a Christian should believe this stuff as that is what witchcraft is about.
Many non-atheists, including christians, would deem you crazy, for this. Just saying.
A lack of a belief in a god isn't the reason here.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on December 15, 2022, 01:05:46 AMMany non-atheists, including christians, would deem you crazy, for this. Just saying.
A lack of a belief in a god isn't the reason here.
I know it. I would've thought same thing when I was an atheist and maybe even when I was a believer, before I experienced all this stuff.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 07:19:47 PMActually during that time, 15-20 years ago, I had severe depression so some might call that not sane by this standard.
So you were trying to fill a void in your life with religion? I had depression when I was a Christian. My response was to dig deeper, becoming even more devout. Praying constantly, spending more time at church. None of that worked.
Religion can make you feel special, like you have hidden knowledge the world needs to hear, and that the god who created the entire universe loves you, and religion provides a social structure (which can be good or bad). None of those things will cure you of depression, and God will certainly not come down and heal you, when there are countless cancer patients asking him for healing and being ignored.
No that's after I b
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 15, 2022, 02:14:36 AMSo you were trying to fill a void in your life with religion? I had depression when I was a Christian. My response was to dig deeper, becoming even more devout. Praying constantly, spending more time at church. None of that worked.
Religion can make you feel special, like you have hidden knowledge the world needs to hear, and that the god who created the entire universe loves you, and religion provides a social structure (which can be good or bad). None of those things will cure you of depression, and God will certainly not come down and heal you, when there are countless cancer patients asking him for healing and being ignored.
No that is after I lost my faith and could only think about figuring out that issue whether god existed or not because I had always taken it for granted to be true until then. It caused severe depression that I couldn't even focus so I had to drop out of my school. 15 years later I started believing again then had religious experiences which healed my depression and since then Ive wanted to figure out what I experienced and continue learning more.
I do think God can heal something like cancer but I think depression is different as it is from the mind and I know God can heal that from experience. Jesus mentioned the "renewing of the mind" which is what I experienced. It was the first thing that happened during the mystical overcoming experience where I could feel my brain heating up and I felt healed afterward but that isn't the only thing that happens.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 14, 2022, 03:40:03 PMI think KJV is pretty good and actually adds some benefit with poetic translation that only someone initiated by God would truly understand unless maybe someone that was initiated told them.
"Poetic translation" seems suspiciously like a way to describe a poor/improper translation while making it appear to not be bad.
Quotethat only someone initiated by God would truly understand unless maybe someone that was initiated told them.
If you have to be "initiated" before you can read a book, you might be in a destructive cult.
QuoteI don't agree I'm that gullible but definitely way moreso than when I was an atheist. I've just seen and experienced a lot of supernatural stuff to know amazing things are possible.
If both of these sentences are true, I'm surprised you haven't jumped out of an airplane while flapping your arms.
QuoteI used to be an atheist for 15 years so I know what it is like to not believe in anything
(https://miro.medium.com/max/360/0*PMo44j8Zv6tm9NOt.jpg)
Quotebut what scientists say as I would've dismissed all my claims as impossible without even entertaining them or just say they're only anecdotes of hallucinations.
...hmmm...
QuoteIt is always "show me the empirical evidence" but with anything involving the mind that is very hard to do.
Yeah, that "show me the empirical evidence" stuff can get pretty tricky for some reason...
The wheels on the short bus go round and round.....
Quote from: Hydra009"Poetic translation" seems suspiciously like a way to describe a poor/improper translation while making it appear to not be bad.
I despise the KJV with a passion largely for a variety of reasons, that being one amongst them.
Also, it's just frankly unpleasantly fancy for the sake of being fancy, which seems odd given some of the key concepts in Christianity are "be modest, be poor".
Quote from: Shiranu on December 15, 2022, 05:30:57 PMI despise the KJV with a passion largely for a variety of reasons, that being one amongst them.
Also, it's just frankly unpleasantly fancy for the sake of being fancy, which seems odd given some of the key concepts in Christianity are "be modest, be poor".
I don't matter the version; It's the same story with every religion...right.
god is great, can't seem to accurately describe the natural world he created but he kills sea dragons and shit. god is always pissed, his chosen sheep have let him down, broken covenant, he murders them all, they try again, they fail again, bring on the wars and plagues, let's try again, oops no good, the temple gets destroyed, we need a new scapegoat and covenant, yes, a human sacrifice should do the trick, let's wait decades and jot this down, oops, we now have gays, Muslims, and liberals. Oh shit, god is pissed again, the end is near, repent.
It's fucking bronze age bullshit and people just are that fucking dumb as black holes are literally reinventing space and time.
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 15, 2022, 12:33:29 PM"Poetic translation" seems suspiciously like a way to describe a poor/improper translation while making it appear to not be bad.
If you have to be "initiated" before you can read a book, you might be in a destructive cult.
If both of these sentences are true, I'm surprised you haven't jumped out of an airplane while flapping your arms.
(https://miro.medium.com/max/360/0*PMo44j8Zv6tm9NOt.jpg)
...hmmm...
Yeah, that "show me the empirical evidence" stuff can get pretty tricky for some reason...
I'm not in a cult, I haven't been in a church outside of a wedding for 20 years. You get initiated by the spirit world and experience same stuff mentioned in Bible and more
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 16, 2022, 03:30:01 PMI'm not in a cult, I haven't been in a church outside of a wedding for 20 years. You get initiated by the spirit world and experience same stuff mentioned in Bible and more
Alrighty then!...........................
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 16, 2022, 03:30:01 PMI'm not in a cult, I haven't been in a church outside of a wedding for 20 years. You get initiated by the spirit world and experience same stuff mentioned in Bible and more
A large majority of it is just history being recorded; I don't think I need to stress why that's important.
The next largest chunk is of prophets saying, "Yeah, that behavior is bullshit and the Lord is going to punish you for your wickedness."
Neither of those are offensive to me, and when they make up the majority of the work... I just don't get it.
Quote from: Shiranu on December 16, 2022, 10:26:11 PMA large majority of it is just history being recorded; I don't think I need to stress why that's important.
The next largest chunk is of prophets saying, "Yeah, that behavior is bullshit and the Lord is going to punish you for your wickedness."
Neither of those are offensive to me, and when they make up the majority of the work... I just don't get it.
It has been said that Torah can be summed up as "love your neighbor" but I agree the history stuff is important too.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 18, 2022, 03:12:54 PMIt has been said that Torah can be summed up as "love your neighbor" but I agree the history stuff is important too.
The OT is about 600 commandments and the savagery of the ot god.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 18, 2022, 05:26:47 PMThe OT is about 600 commandments and the savagery of the ot god.
A suspicious amount of rules about what people are allowed to eat, and yet not a single condemnation of holding ownership of other people.
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 18, 2022, 03:12:54 PMIt has been said that Torah can be summed up as "love your neighbor" ...
You're paraphrasing a NT passage and leaving out half of it.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 18, 2022, 09:06:08 PMA suspicious amount of rules about what people are allowed to eat, and yet not a single condemnation of holding ownership of other people.
Several rules about how they are to be treated humanely and freed after time though - all things considered for 600 B.C. and older laws, not too bad.
Quote from: Shiranu on December 18, 2022, 10:44:56 PMSeveral rules about how they are to be treated humanely and freed after time though - all things considered for 600 B.C. and older laws, not too bad.
They were only freed if they were Hebrews. Slaves of war, or slaves purchased from other lands, were slaves for life. Also, I'd hardly call a culture that says it's okay to beat your slave as long as they can stand up again after a couple of days "humane."
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 18, 2022, 11:07:37 PMThey were only freed if they were Hebrews. Slaves of war, or slaves purchased from other lands, were slaves for life. Also, I'd hardly call a culture that says it's okay to beat your slave as long as they can stand up again after a couple of days "humane."
Compared to their neighbors who were cutting babies in half and who knows how they treated their slaves?
Yeah, I would still argue they were the humane ones.
Quote from: Shiranu on December 18, 2022, 11:11:34 PMCompared to their neighbors who were cutting babies in half and who knows how they treated their slaves?
Yeah, I would still argue they were the humane ones.
I'm not super well-versed in levantine cultural practices at around, I dunno, the bronze age or thereabouts, so I guess I'll have to take your word for it.
Whether they were the humane ones or not back then isn't particularly relevant to the here and now. At present, no one takes the cutting babies in half stuff seriously, if that was indeed the case. But they do take the Old Testament stuff seriously at present. And compared to modern cultural norms, that stuff is pretty twisted.
It's good to know the past. And it's wise to learn from the past. But imho, it's a pretty awful to march towards the past.
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 18, 2022, 11:32:17 PMI'm not super well-versed in levantine cultural practices at around, I dunno, the bronze age or thereabouts, so I guess I'll have to take your word for it.
Whether they were the humane ones or not back then isn't particularly relevant to the here and now. At present, no one takes the cutting babies in half stuff seriously, if that was indeed the case. But they do take the Old Testament stuff seriously at present. And compared to modern cultural norms, that stuff is pretty twisted.
It's good to know the past. And it's wise to learn from the past. But imho, it's a pretty awful to march towards the past.
I would argue they don't hold that Old Testament stuff seriously at the present, and that's their biggest problem; they never have.
Even the traditionalists - the ultra-Orthodox Jews (the people who made headlines with a notably poor ability to follow simple covid procedures to save lives, "modest" dress code, and a strange aversion to the sinful practice of male-female touching (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah), among other things) - aren't traditionalistic enough. Now there's an idea.
What sort of super-orthodox society do you envision? One in which males and females cannot look at each other except through a mirror? Perhaps one where reading any other book except the Torah is forbidden? A society of insular people with childlike faith, a fraught relationship with education and science, and backwards social ideas, especially about women and gender roles and sex. Is this something to aspire towards?
QuoteWhat sort of super-orthodox society do you envision?
One that follows half of the Mitzvot that hold good values to this day; if they desire to uphold the other other 40% that relates to cultural expectations, that's up to them.
Hell, they don't even uphold most of the 10% that's garbage.
Here are 153 of the 613 commandments that I deemed to be "objectively good" - you can pick and choose which one's they should be following for yourself.
Objectively Good Commandments - 153- -To love your neighbor as yourself.
-To love converts. - -Not to hate your brother in your heart.
- -To reprove your brother when necessary.
- -Not to embarrass others.
- -Not to oppress the weak.
- -Not to slander.
- -Not to take revenge.
- -Not to bear a grudge.
- -To respect and defer to the elders.
- -Not to turn a people to idolatry.
- -Not to burn your children in a sacrificial fire to Molech.
- -Not to be superstitious.
- -To rest on the seventh day.
- -Not to withhold food, clothing, and relations from your wife.
- -To free a childless widow from the obligation to marry her brother-in-law.
- -Not to have relations with your father's wife.
- -Not to have relations with your mother.
- -Not to have relations with your sister.
- -Not to have relations with your father's wife's daughter.
- -Not to have relations with your son's daughter.
- -Not to have relations with your daughter.
- -Not to have relations with your daughter's daughter.
- -Not to marry a woman and her daughter.
- -Not to marry a woman and her son's daughter.
- -Not to marry a woman and her daughter's daughter.
- -Not to have relations with your father's sister.
- -Not to have relations with your mother's sister.
- -Not to have relations with your father's brother's wife (same father).
- -Not to have relations with your son's wife.
- -Not to have relations with your brother's wife (same father and/or mother).
- -Not to have relations with your wife's sister.
- -A man must not have relations with a beast.
- -A woman must not have relations with a beast.
- -Not to have homosexual relations with your father.
- -Not to have homosexual relations with your father's brother.
- -Not to have relations with a married woman.
- -Don't abhor or keep third-generation Edomite and Egyptian converts from marrying into the Jewish nation.
- -Not to abhor or refrain from marrying a third-generation Edomite or Egyptian convert.
- -Not to castrate any male (including animals).
- -To examine animals that are permitted as food.
- -To be careful to eat only clean birds.
- -To distinguish which sea creatures are fit to eat.
- -To distinguish which winged insects may be eaten.
- -Not to eat unclean animals.
- -Not to take a nesting bird with her eggs and young.
- -To release the mother bird if you did not take her.
- -To not lie or deal falsely, or deny that something of value was left in your possession.
- -To not swear falsely.
- -Not to break oaths or vows.
- -Not to sell vowed possessions.
- -Not to redeem any vowed possessions.
- -To leave forgotten sheaves in the field or leave a sheaf for the poor.
- -Not to retrieve them but leave them for the widow, alien, and orphan.
- -To separate the tithe for the poor.
- -To give charity.
- -Not to withhold charity from those in need.
- -To relax all loans in the seventh year.
- -Not to pressure the debtor in the seventh year.
- -Not to refrain from lending in the year of remission for fear of monetary loss.
- -Not to sell land (in Israel) in perpetuity.
- -To follow the laws pertaining to houses in walled cities.
- -Not to eat from sacrifices that have become impure.
- -No bone of the Paschal Lamb shall be broken.
- -Not to break any bones from the second Paschal offering.
- -To discover when a house is infected by a skin disease.
- -Not to steal money stealthily.
- -Each individual must ensure that his scales and weights are accurate.
- -Not to commit injustice with scales and weights.
- -Not to possess inaccurate weights and scales even if they are not for use.
- -Not to move a boundary marker to steal someone's property.
- -Not to kidnap.
- -Not to rob openly.
- -Not to withhold wages or fail to repay a debt.
- -Not to covet and scheme to acquire another's possession.
- -Not to desire another's possession.
- -Return the robbed object or its value.
- -Not to ignore a lost object.
- -Return the lost object.
- -The court must implement laws against one who assaults another or damages another's property.
- -Not to murder.
- -Not to accept money to save a convicted murderer.
- -Not to accept monetary restitution instead of sending the accidental murderer to, or releasing him from, a city of refuge.
- -Not to kill the murderer before he stands trial.
- -Not to stand idly by if someone's life is in danger.
- -Designate refuge cities and prepare routes of access.
- -Make a guardrail around flat roofs.
- -Not to put a stumbling block before the blind.
- -Help another remove the load from a beast that can no longer carry it.
- -Help others load their beasts.
- -Not to leave fallen beasts distraught with their burdens but help to load or unload.
- -Not to overcharge or underpay for an article.
- -Not to insult or harm anybody with words.
- -Not to cheat a sincere convert monetarily.
- -Not to insult or harm a sincere convert with words.
- -Not to sell him as a slave is sold.
- -Not to work the slave oppressively.
- -Not to allow a foreigner to work the slave oppressively.
- -Not to have the kinsman slave do menial slave labor.
- -Give the slave gifts when he goes free.
- -Not to send the freed slave away empty-handed.
- -Not to extradite a slave who fled to (Biblical) Israel.
- -Not to wrong a slave who has come to Israel for refuge.
- -Do not delay payment of wages past the agreed time.
- -The hired worker may eat from the unharvested crops where he works.
- -The worker must not eat while on hired time.
- -The worker must not take more than he can eat.
- -The courts must carry out the laws of a borrower.
- -The courts must carry out the laws of the unpaid guard.
- -Lend without interest to the poor.
- -Not to press the poor for repayment.
- -Press the idolater for payment.
- -The creditor must not forcibly take collateral.
- -Return the collateral to the debtor when it is needed.
- -Not to delay returning the collateral when it is needed.
- -Not to demand collateral from a widow.
- -Not to demand as collateral utensils needed for preparing food.
- -Not to lend with interest within the community.
- -Not to borrow with interest.
- -Not to play any role in an interest loan.
- -Lend to, and borrow from, idolaters at interest.
- -The court must carry out the laws of the plaintiff, admitter or denier.
- -Appoint judges.
- -Not to appoint judges who are not familiar with judicial procedure.
- -A judge who presents a case for acquittal must not present an argument for conviction in capital cases.
- -The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence.
- -The court must not punish anybody who was forced to commit a crime.
- -The judge must not pity the murderer or assaulter at the trial.
- -The judge must not have mercy on the poor man at the trial.
- -The judge must not respect the great man at the trial.
- -The judge must not decide unjustly the case of the habitual transgressor.
- -The judge must not pervert justice.
- -The judge must not pervert a case involving a convert or an orphan.
- -Judge righteously.
- -The judge must not fear a violent man in judgment.
- -Judges must not accept bribes.
- -Judges must not accept testimony unless both parties are present.
- -Anyone who knows evidence must testify at a trial.
- -Carefully interrogate the witness.
- -A witness must not serve as a judge in capital crimes.
- -Not to accept testimony from a lone witness.
- -Transgressors must not testify.
- -Not to testify falsely.
- -Not to deviate from a legal discussion.
- -Respect your father and mother.
- -Mourn for relatives—even priests
- -The king must not have too many horses.
- -The king must not have too much silver and gold.
- -Offer peace terms to the residents of a city under siege and treat them according to the Torah if they accept surrender terms.
- -Prepare latrines outside the camps.
- -Prepare a shovel for each soldier to dig with.
- -Not to conscript or involve the newly married man in military or communal service.
- -Not to panic and retreat during battle.
- -Not to sell her into slavery.
I have news for you - the no-slavery stuff is pretty boilerplate. As for the commandment to not "rob openly", that leaves a little bit of wiggle room, dontcha think? Do you think? Because thinking people don't really need lists of rules with everything spelled out and wrapped up in a neat little bow - a life of unthinking servitude to lists - they simply understand the broad idea not to harm people - to value others and others' wellbeing. (If you can't explain it simply, you don't know it, as the adage goes) Societies can draw up their own very specific law codes from there because there's a story for every sign and a sign for every story. Chapter, Section, Subsection.
And if I read you right, you say that they don't follow *most* of the bad stuff. The obvious inference is that there is some stuff - probably more than you think - that is indeed bad. If I were to draft a set of laws and 90% of it is fine, but 10% of it is absolutely barbaric, where do you think people's attention would be? (If I were to build a ship that is 90% sailworthy, could I reassure the sailors that their ship is *mostly* okay?)
The ancient cultures all had their rules as does a tribe of chimps. Nothing earth shattering about any of them such as The Code of Hammurabi, The Code of Ur-Nammu of Ur, The Code of Lipit-Ishtar of Isin or the Torah. The rules are so provincial and Earth bound.
The Torah is certainly NOT a history. Finally, we have a number of secular scholars researching the historicity of holy books and it is not looking good for Moses, Abraham, apocalyptic floods, unicorns, or the Exodus. The NT is not faring so well either. Just like all the Egyptian, Greek and Roman gods, the Abrahamic gods are mythological. Abiding by their antiquated rules against homosexuality (which occurs in nature) for example is just wrong.
Quote from: Shiranu on December 18, 2022, 10:44:56 PMSeveral rules about how they are to be treated humanely and freed after time though - all things considered for 600 B.C. and older laws, not too bad.
That is probably true. The Huge problem with that is that the OT is not considered 'old, historical law', but current, up to the minute, law. And it is to be considered as such and acted upon as such. Of course, everybody picks and chooses what to ignore and what to follow.
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 19, 2022, 12:58:14 AMI have news for you - the no-slavery stuff is pretty boilerplate. As for the commandment to not "rob openly", that leaves a little bit of wiggle room, dontcha think? Do you think? Because thinking people don't really need lists of rules with everything spelled out and wrapped up in a neat little bow - a life of unthinking servitude to lists - they simply understand the broad idea not to harm people - to value others and others' wellbeing. (If you can't explain it simply, you don't know it, as the adage goes) Societies can draw up their own very specific law codes from there because there's a story for every sign and a sign for every story. Chapter, Section, Subsection.
And if I read you right, you say that they don't follow *most* of the bad stuff. The obvious inference is that there is some stuff - probably more than you think - that is indeed bad. If I were to draft a set of laws and 90% of it is fine, but 10% of it is absolutely barbaric, where do you think people's attention would be? (If I were to build a ship that is 90% sailworthy, could I reassure the sailors that their ship is *mostly* okay?)
Speaking of slavery, few people know that Jefferson's first draft of The Declaration trashes King George and the practice of slave trading....of course that section got deleted by the Southern Christians..
He (King George) has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it's most sacred rights of life & liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. this piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, & murdering the people upon whom he also obtruded them; thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another
Quote from: NagaMorningstar on December 13, 2022, 12:12:41 AMActually they are evidence just not so much in a "hard science" type of way. It is difficult to get empirical evidence on things involving the consciousness like near death experiences, shared death experiences, astral projection, dreams, etc (at least as far as we know with public science...I suspect there is secret tech to record consciousness remotely). As for AP, I could refer you to the cia research paper on it when they did the Monroe institute hemisync using binaural beats where they AP'd and encountered reptilians or the many people that AP as a hobby and meet up together in the astral realm. Or the work of dr Eben Alexander who was an atheist neurosurgeon that had NDE while his neocortex wasn't working (in coma from meningitis) so he came up with theory of external signal for consciousness. For shared death experiences where healthy people around the dying person all share the death experience (like an NDE), look up the work of Dr Raymond Moody. With these, you can't just say the experience is product of dying brain because healthy people share the experience.
Evidence leads to a particular conclusion, religious experiences can contradict each other. It seems to be the nature of religious experiences that they compel belief, so I don't blame you for believing...but to me your experience is an anecdote about a brain state you had.
If there's an external signal for consciousness, there doesn't seem to be anything that can block the signal, so there's no possible experiment that could confirm that hypothesis. If people lost consciousness in a Faraday Cage, that would be good evidence for an external signal, but without any supporting evidence (or any evidence this hypothesis is needed to explain), it's just speculation.