How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil

Started by Blackleaf, January 08, 2022, 02:46:46 AM

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Mr.Obvious

#60
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 30, 2022, 03:12:10 PMNo, Scripture cannot be wrong, He cannot contradict Himself, because He is Perfect.


Again, not arguing here that scripture is wrong, though you have admitted there is false scripture. I'm giving you this, in a hypothetical situation: The right scripture can't be wrong. Fine.
But YOU can be wrong, regardless.

Here, let me show you.

QuoteAnd the only One who cannnot lie is Jesus.

QuoteFor all I know you could be lying, right? As for me, I am forbidden by Law from ever lying, and I cannot lie to you, ever.

Are you Jesus, Daniel? Are you my lord and saviour?

Even if we were to accept premise one, that Jesus is infallible; you most certainly are not.  Not saying you were lying, in either of these quotes. But you were wrong in at least one of them.

as to this stuff:

Quote-And God gave you free-will, you can choose whom will ye serve, but if you reject Him, is because your deeds were evil:

He created everything that is good. At the end of the creation week He saw all that He had made was very good. Even the serpent, was just an animal of the field, when He created it. But then the serpent sinned, and mind you, sin was not created by God, sin was created by the serpent and her lusts, who together begat a lie.
So, sin is of the Devil, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Seeing as you deem the god you believe in to be allpowerful, allknowing and the creator of existence, i have a whole thing about this. I find it logically inconsistent. I could go into it, if you want and are open to the conversation.

Open conversations do work better if you are not assuming that I am lying though. Truth be told.

And as to this stuff regarding me bearing my own sins, if such a concept were to be real:
QuoteLook, you can bear them all you want, but in the end sins must be cleansed, because my Father doesn't like them. You are going to be cleansed either way. So, it would be better for you to forsake them now, and wash yourself in water, than to be purged with fire later.
I'll take my chances then, and do what I think is morally right, intellectually honest and logical.
In my view.


Done editing.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

the_antithesis

Quote from: Daniel L. on March 30, 2022, 03:12:10 PMNo, Scripture cannot be wrong, He cannot contradict Himself, because He is Perfect.

Your problem is you started there. You did not examine your scriptures and determine that they were without error. You decided that they were perfect before you had copy+pasted a single word.

You are a poor witness because you are not of noble character. (Acts 17:11)

Daniel L.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 03:48:44 PMyou have admitted there is false scripture
No, there is no such thing as"false scripture" I said if is false, is therefore not Scripture because Scripture can only be True.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 03:48:44 PMBut you were wrong in at least one of them.
Look, I get it you have no argument so you can only attack my person, it's fine. I can be wrong, but Jesus cannot be wrong. That is the point. Now, to defend myself, I meant: I am not allowed by law to lie, I "cannot" lie, because the Law forbids me. But Jesus He cannot possibly lie, not only because of Law, but because He is Perfect in Nature, so it is impossible for Him to lie, not even an accident, there is no possible way for Him to lie. So, I could be wrong, but Jesus cannot be wrong.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 03:48:44 PMI find it logically inconsistent.
What do you find logically inconsistent? I'm not assuming, Truth is you could be wrong, the only one that couldn't be wrong is God, so we can check on His Word if we need clarification. Because He cannot be "logically inconsistent", nor can anything about Him, nor what He does, so, the problem is not with God, is with you, and your own understanding.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 03:48:44 PMI'll take my chances then, and do what I think is morally right, intellectually honest and logical.
In my view.
What can be more "morally right" than loving your neighbour as thyself? What can be more "logical" than loving God with all your hearth? There is not one "view" given by men, not yours, not any, that is better or more Just or more "intellectually honest" than His View, His Way, His Holy Law is Perfect:

Proverbs 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

Shiranu

QuoteThere are Three Divine Persons, all Three Uncreated Creators, Eternal, And These Three are One. The example is man: Adam, Eve and their son. They are three different persons, but are one family. All three are required in order for the other two to live, so all three must exist in order for them to exist.

Then the quote you shared does not have bearing to the topic, because it is speaking of God the creator's sacrifice, not Jesus the Eternals.


Quote Now, the actions of the priests and pharisees, was murder and shedding innocent blood. So, as you can see, it wasn't Jesus who shed His own innocent blood, He was crucified by others, He didn't crucify Himself did He?


Then by that logic the blood sacrifice was completely irrelevant to the message of Christ; it had no sway on salvation as it was not carried out for mankind's salvation - is this not Biblically contradictive?


Likewise, the sheep who has his throat slit does not sacrifice himself either, yet he remains a blood sacrifice all the same.

For as much talk as God gives about hating blood sacrifices, he spends a large amount of his book demanding exactly that from his followers; foreign tribes, people who offend him, people who follow other gods, a king's son, his own son... kinda sounds like he likes blood sacrifices or... more likely... the Old Testament was primarily written by blood-thirsty warlords and religious fanatics looking to legitimize their right to rule the land they just committed ethnic cleansing of multiple Phoenician tribes on.

If we read the Old Testament as a historical document, then it tells the story of religious fanatics who were persecuted for preaching that the one god of their pantheon (El) was better than all the other gods, get their freedom and then go on a murdering spree of anyone who refused to submit to their interpretation of god - all the "good stuff" of the Old Testament was written not by these genocidal fanatics and it shows; it's very clear what parts were written during times of stability and integration with their neighbors and which parts were when they were barbarians... unfortunately Christians kept almost all of the latter (for political reasons) and threw out most of the former as the Church evolved into an empire of it's own.

So just from the start, that is where you stand; arguing from an unreliable book that, if taken literally, means you follow a system of beliefs that were codified and enforced by a bunch of genocidal fanatics that wiped several tribes of Mediterranean peoples off the face of the earth following the Bronze Age collapse of massive empires a few hundred years earlier.
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.

Cassia

At the end of the creation week He saw all that He had made was very good.

Tell us you are not a young earth creationist. Is the Ark Park a museum? Did kangaroos swim to Australia? Unicorns? Dragons? Parting of the Seas? Talking serpents, burning bushes, belly of the whale are all real (inside your head?)

Mr.Obvious

Quote from: Daniel L. on March 30, 2022, 04:52:39 PMNo, there is no such thing as"false scripture" I said if is false, is therefore not Scripture because Scripture can only be True.

With all due respect, tomato-tomahto, no?
False = not true

QuoteLook, I get it you have no argument so you can only attack my person, it's fine.

Oh, no-no-no-no.
I've been doing my utmost best to limit myself to questioning your reasoning. Your up to recently presupposed infallible interpretation of what you deem to be an infallible text, for as far as I understand it, has been key in your claim to authority and your eagerness to dismiss me because I 'could be lying'. If you make yourself part of the claim, that part is fair game my man.
If I were to attack your person, I instead would say something like... I don't know... this?:
QuoteBut you seem to have a heart of stone, and couldn't care less about justice or the death of the innocent.


QuoteI can be wrong, but Jesus cannot be wrong. That is the point. Now, to defend myself, I meant: I am not allowed by law to lie, I "cannot" lie, because the Law forbids me. But Jesus He cannot possibly lie, not only because of Law, but because He is Perfect in Nature, so it is impossible for Him to lie, not even an accident, there is no possible way for Him to lie. So, I could be wrong, but Jesus cannot be wrong.
Right. In this situation, like this entire conversation, I'm giving you the unproven idea that Jesus and his scripture are infallible and cannot be wrong. Proving that would be an entire different conversation, but I'm going with it for the purposes of this conversation.
Now, considering that as we agree, you can be wrong. As can I and everyone, except, for the purposes of this talk, Jesus. You can still interpret Jesus and his scripture wrong. As can I. As can everyone, except, apparently, Jesus. And in fact, people must do so. People, in this view, misinterpret what is actually scripture and what is not, all the time. Even if you don't and you are not  wrong about anything, there is no discernable way to say that you are not and your fellow-churchgoer who comes to a radically different, or even marginally different, conclusion based on the same premises, is. And he might come to a different conclusion because, for example, he might be against homosexuality whilst you are not in principle, and he therefor sees other parts of the bible as 'honoring' god which you don't, whilst seeing other parts as 'dishonoring' god, which you don't.
You are both, in this scenario, still evaluating hypothetically  perfect scripture in a subjective way. Without any way to prove that yours is superior to this other person's. And if this perfect scripture clearly isn't absolutely clear to every single person in the world who tries his or her best to follow it, which it demonstrably isn't because of the vastly different views in different Christian subgroups, none of us can without question accept your interpretation. And you can't, with intellectual honesty, claim that you have a way to know that what you believe wholeheartedly is truly justified.
Which is, without even going into the fact that you, as we now agree 'CAN' lie. Still not saying you are. But not being allowed to lie is not the same as not being able to lie. For all I know, you could be lying even about not being allowed to lie. I mean, I am not allowed to lie. You might not agree with that, but I am not. By my own set of rules and morality and principles, and those of the society that shaped me. Yes, I still can, like you. But I'm not allowed, like, presumably, you.
QuoteWhat do you find logically inconsistent? I'm not assuming, Truth is you could be wrong, the only one that couldn't be wrong is God, so we can check on His Word if we need clarification. Because He cannot be "logically inconsistent", nor can anything about Him, nor what He does, so, the problem is not with God, is with you, and your own understanding.
Sure. I could be wrong. If I am, please point it out. I haven't really found much of what you have offered convincing. As I'm sure you haven't found much of what I've said convincing. But we can both try.
So thank you for asking. And not assuming. Genuinely, thank you.
I'm going to try to be concise though I probably will fail.
You said before that we have free will and that God did not create sin, but that it was the creation of the serpent and his/her lusts.
You have also said that god is All-powerful, All-knowing and created everything good. I'm going to say he created the world as it originally was, then? I think that's fair as apparently sin and wickedness only came in after and he did not create those.
The problem arises when you realize that due to his all-knowingness and his all-powerfullness every possible way to create a world was and is at His disposal 'prior' to creating the world. And he would know what every possible choice and consequence in the created world would be, if he created it in specifically that way or another. For example, your God, if real and possessing the attributes you assign Him, could have created the world such a way that our roles would have been reversed. In which I never turned away from Christianity and you had. And you would have wandered onto this site eight years back and took on the name Mr.Obvious and I would have sprung up a few days ago with a lot of scripture quotes and had been arguing what you are arguing in this reality with you arguing what I am arguing in this reality.
And we would still have 'free will' in that other reality. As much as we do now. If the world had been created in a slightly different way, our life-paths could have been drastically different and led us to very different personal outcomes. This hypothetical God knows what we will choose, because he is all-knowing, in both possible worlds. The fact that he chose to create a world in which you are convinced that you have the right idea of the scripture and I don't believe you or even believe he exists, must therefor be 'his will', if he has the agreed upon attributes.
This is inconsistent with a God that wants everyone to believe in him and be in a relationship with him and know his supposedly infallible way.
Because if he didn't want anyone to 'stray' from his light, he could create the world in such a way that everyone's lifepath would lead to him. He would know how to do so, because he is allknowing. He could do so, because he is allpowerful. He would know what we would choose given what circumstances because, again, he is all-knowing. And thus becoming 'convinced' of God's existence In a hypothetical perfect universe in which everyone becomes convinced of God, is no less free of will than becoming or not becoming convinced of his existence in this reality. Because in both, he knows what you will choose and in both he has chosen, in advance, to make the world in such a specific way out of an infinite amount options for him (being allpowerful), that you would choose what you would choose and you would come to believe what you've become to believe.
In a way, this can tied back to sin, and the problem of evil. God knew the serpent would create sin, with his lusts. You can argue the serpent chose to create sin, freely. But if God had made the world and the Serpent in such a way that it would have chosen not to, it would have been through as much free will, and it would have been possible for him to do so. Again, because he is supposedly all-powerful. Therefore, he chose to create a world in which sin would come to be through the choice of his creations, rather than to create a world in which sin would not come to be, through the choice of his creations.
In the same way, he must have chosen to create world in which people would choose to practice blood-sacrifice to him and inflict suffering upon Jesus, over a world in which they would choose not to do so. By the by.
QuoteWhat can be more "morally right" than loving your neighbour as thyself?
Well, that part falls into my morality and principles. But Christianity does not have a monopoly on that concept. Christianity is not a prerequisite for love or caring about others.
QuoteWhat can be more "logical" than loving God with all your hearth?
You would need a logical reason to believe there is a God, for starters. I think speaking in "more" or "less" logical is a bit weird. But belief in God would have to be more fundamental than any emotions pertaining that Deity. And if you don't find the idea of God to be logical and can find no logic to lead you to God, loving God would be quite illogical indeed.
QuoteThere is not one "view" given by men, not yours, not any, that is better or more Just or more "intellectually honest" than His View, His Way, His Holy Law is Perfect:
If he were real and if he were infallible and perfect. Sure. If.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Daniel L.

Quote from: Shiranu on March 30, 2022, 05:24:54 PMnot Jesus the Eternals.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Quote from: Shiranu on March 30, 2022, 05:24:54 PMkinda sounds like he likes blood sacrifices
You speak against your own, your father likes blood sacrifice. My Father hates hands that shed innocent blood:

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

-So, you don't speak against us nor our Father, you speak against your own, because My Father didn't cammand blood sacrifices, it was yours that did:

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:


Daniel L.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 31, 2022, 07:59:54 AM. You can still interpret Jesus and his scripture wrong.
Yes, but Jesus cannot miscommunicate a message, because He is Perfect in Nature. The reason why not everyone hears the same thing, is because only His sheep are given to understand Him:

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

-So, the differences you may find with different interpretations, are the differences between the sheep and the goats. But as you come close to the core of the subject, you will find no difference, for example: Everyone agrees, God is Perfect, God is Holy, He cannot sin, He cannot lie. And this is my strong foundation, even you will agree Perfection has no imperfection, no spot nor blemish. And God has to be Perfect, or else He wouldn't be God. And this is what you wanted, when you said: "absolutely clear to every single person in the world who tries his or her best to follow it".

-So, it is only from Him that absolute Truth can proceed, from the One who is not able to lie, due to His Perfect Nature, without Him there would be no Truth. So, if you believe in Truth, you believe in Him, for He is the Truth. And I want to ask you to forget about me, and my interpretations, and forget about your interpretations, because we can both be wrong, but focus only on Him who cannot be wrong, because of His Perfect Nature. Because this alone demonstrates His existence, the existence of Truth, which had to proceed from the Mouth of the LORD, since He is the only One who can speak Truth, since all men could be wrong, with the exception of THE Man Jesus Christ. And once we agree on His existence, we can discuss our interpretations of Scripture later, as brothers.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 31, 2022, 07:59:54 AMto make the world in such a specific way out of an infinite amount options for him (being allpowerful), that you would choose what you would choose and you would come to believe what you've become to believe.
Let me clarify on "all powerfull", there are things a Perfect God cannot do, for example: God cannot sin. So, not even a Holy God, can remmit the sins of the unrepentant sinner, for reason of His Perfect Justice. And if the wicked doesn't repent is the wicked's own fault, the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

-So, like I said, you cannot blame God for anything, because God is Blameless, He gave free will to man, because He is Most Just, and because a relationship requires the consent of both parties, which means the only reason there is for the existence of one wicked who does not know God, is that the wicked rejected Him, out of his own free will. Which means there isn't any possible universe where everyone accepted Him, there are always some that reject Him. Because that would eliminate free will, if you think about it, if there would be a universe where everyone accepted Him, the choice of rejecting Him, would be non-existet, leaving all mankind with no other choice, but to accept Him, and that is not free will, and not a relationship.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 31, 2022, 07:59:54 AMYou would need a logical reason to believe there is a God, for starters.
Yes, any logical person who seeks Truth will find Him, for Truth can only be given by a Perfect and Holy God, not by men. Because men could be wrong, but God cannot be wrong. So, worshipping God with all your heart, is the logical thing to do, to thank Him fot telling us the Truth, for saving us from our sins, we owe our lifes to Him.
So, anyone who worships the Mighty One of Israel, show intelligence, show that he knows the Truth, which he received from the Father, and it shows the gratitude of a wise man:

Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.



Blackleaf

Every Christian who thinks they've got it right just isn't chosen by God like Daniel is. Daniel has never changed his mind about his interpretations of scripture. He's always been 100% correct.

Cue the humble bragging defense.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville