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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: Blackleaf on January 08, 2022, 02:46:46 AM

Title: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Blackleaf on January 08, 2022, 02:46:46 AM
One thing Christians--particularly fundamentalists--like to accuse "the world" of doing is calling what is good evil and what is evil good. However, from what I've seen, the opposite is true. Christians often flip good and evil based on nothing but their religious beliefs. Abraham was commended because when God asked him to kill his son as a blood sacrifice, he obeyed. When Lot offers his daughters to a rapey mob in order to protect two total strangers, he's declared to be the only Godly man in the city. The first king of Israel was replaced by God because when he was ordered to kill every man, woman, child, and animal in a city, he only killed some of them.

So what are we to learn from these examples? That blind obedience to God is all that matters? It doesn't matter who dies or who gets hurt, as long as you do whatever God says, exactly how he tells you to do it?

Christians will tell us that we have no basis for morality, because we don't have a god's laws to give us an objective standard to live by. But holy crap. Given all the horrible things God has asked people to do, are we seriously supposed to accept that it is a bad thing that we don't have some bloodthirsty tyrant telling us what to do?

At the end of the day, both Christians and atheists base their morality on the same things: empathy and a sense of fairness. Where their morality conflicts with their religion, they make excuses for the Bible. Why would they do that, if their God is really the basis for their morality?

But of course, Christians and atheists don't agree on all of our moral values. Often, these are in cases where their lives aren't personally affected. Straight, CIS Christians declaring the LGBTQ+ as evil because the Bible says so. Christian men equating abortion with murder, despite their God having no problem with killing babies in the Bible, and even providing a ritual for men to force their wives to abort when they suspect their wives of cheating.

When Christians do good things, they do it believing there's an omniscient god watching over them, who will reward them. When atheists do good things, they do it simply out of the goodness of their hearts, with no expectation of a divine reward. Which is more commendable?

Imagine this. An angel stands at the gates of Heaven, deciding who gets to go in. An atheist walks up, and the angel says, "You tipped well, you were a good husband and father, and you were a generally kind person to everyone around you. But unfortunately, you didn't think that God existed, so off to eternal torture you go."

Then a Christian walks up, and the angel says, "You were a drug dealing pimp. You regularly beat your wife and children in drunken rages. You never got caught, and never made amends with any of the people you've hurt. But...you accepted Jesus into your heart while on your deathbed, so you're good! Come on in!"

Christians believe this actually happens in the afterlife, and we're the ones who get good and evil backwards???
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Greatest I am on January 16, 2022, 03:55:11 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on January 08, 2022, 02:46:46 AM
One thing Christians--particularly fundamentalists--like to accuse "the world" of doing is calling what is good evil and what is evil good.


Christians believe this actually happens in the afterlife, and we're the ones who get good and evil backwards???

I show Christians this for discussion/debate, but they never return.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNcRXeCzpno

Getting a Christian to discuss morals is like pulling teeth.

Christians know that they have poor morals but do not seem to care.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Hydra009 on January 16, 2022, 04:12:13 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 16, 2022, 03:55:11 PMI show Christians this for discussion/debate, but they never return.
Looking at the thumbnail, I can see why lol
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Cassia on January 16, 2022, 04:44:43 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 16, 2022, 04:12:13 PM
Looking at the thumbnail, I can see why lol
It's a kind of a cool gothy look, I like it. Plus, he's got to compete with 100's of other youtube meta physicists for subs, so a little cosplay probably helps. After all he has solved "Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics"; so, I'll give him a break for being such a genius.
It's great how the woo peddlers are always such experts in Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics, but don't know shit about plain old boring physics and calculus. That's because when you actually earn an advanced degree in science or engineering you are fucking humbled.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Blackleaf on January 17, 2022, 02:34:28 AM
I've found it's hard to get Christians to view any video you share. They'll rarely even acknowledge it. I understand if it's long, but if it's short, it makes no difference.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Greatest I am on January 28, 2022, 08:56:02 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on January 17, 2022, 02:34:28 AM
I've found it's hard to get Christians to view any video you share. They'll rarely even acknowledge it. I understand if it's long, but if it's short, it makes no difference.

I find it hard to get any Christian to debate morals.

They know they do not have good arguments and just keep running away.

Not just from me, but any moral discussion by most.

Let's face it. If they had decent morals arguments, they would use them instead of inquisitions, or their modern low level mental inquisitions of homophobia and misogyny.

Regards
DL


Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 12, 2022, 02:27:45 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on January 08, 2022, 02:46:46 AMblood sacrifice

If the Scripture dishonors Him, it is not Scripture, because He can't contradict Himself.
What you missed about blood sacrifice in the bible, is that it is not allowed, it is wicked and abominable:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

-Blood Sacrifice is leaven from the pharisees:

Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Ezekiel 5:6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

-Corruption of the covenant of Levi:

Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

-Blood Sacrifice is not what our Father in Heaven wants:

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

-Blood Sacrifice was not commanded by our Father:

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

-Blood sacrifice is "of fools" and evil:

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

-Blood sacrifice is an abomination:

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Shiranu on March 12, 2022, 03:55:47 PM
QuoteWhat you missed about blood sacrifice in the bible, is that it is not allowed, it is wicked and abominable:


So his son wasn't sacrificed for mankind's sins and would find the significance placed on it sinful?
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Cassia on March 12, 2022, 04:54:14 PM
I'll fix this, LOL. Without Eve we would all live nakid in the garden...
Quote from: Shiranu on March 12, 2022, 03:55:47 PMSo his son wasn't sacrificed for manwomankind's sins and would find the significance placed on it sinful?
That's the whole deal, right? Vicarious redemption. Lay your sins on the altar of christ. Then go on sinners and do some more, we are hopeless. Not a coincidence the biggest believers are usually complete assholes.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mike Cl on March 12, 2022, 05:53:50 PM
Haaaaa..............another drive by.  What fun. 

Hey, Danny boy, what you missed is that the entire bible is fiction created by man to control their fellow men--and especially women. 
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: aitm on March 13, 2022, 10:09:19 AM


If the Scripture dishonors Him, it is not Scripture, because He can't contradict Himself.
What you missed about blood sacrifice in the bible, is that it is not allowed, it is wicked and abominable

And yet the entire book of Deuteronomy is about god telling his peeps what animal sacrifices he wants to forgive certain sins. Seems like the omniscient one changed his mind...lolol
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: the_antithesis on March 13, 2022, 12:04:33 PM
Why do christians not even read their own bible?
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Blackleaf on March 13, 2022, 12:45:20 PM
Quote from: the_antithesis on March 13, 2022, 12:04:33 PMWhy do christians not even read their own bible?


The more they read, the more barbaric shit they have to do mental gymnastics with. Much easier just to have the Bible read to you by a pastor who can misinterpret it for you. Or even go with one of those Bible reading plans, if you only want the easily digestible stuff. With the latter, you can even pretend to have done your own study.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: SGOS on March 14, 2022, 12:00:37 PM
Quote from: the_antithesis on March 13, 2022, 12:04:33 PMWhy do christians not even read their own bible?

I think it's because it's poor literature, and much of it is written in a style becoming of grade school. I was bored with it as a youngster, and in my teens, I read the New Testament that came out in modern English, and I found that doable.  But Yea and Nay, begot, and King James word order is of no interest to me.

Years later, I was visiting my aunt and she had a bible sitting out in the living room, It had a book marker in it and was at the story of David and Goliath.  I would recommend everyone here to find that and read it.  It's not very long and it is neither well written or interesting, at least to me as an adult when I read it again.  And this is supposed to be one of the most classic and inspiring parts of the Bible.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: the_antithesis on March 14, 2022, 01:23:36 PM
Well, in the old testament, books like Leviticus, for example, are lists of shit. It's not stories. It's like reading the phone book or the tax code, because that's what it is, basically. Leviticus is the third book, IIRC after Genesis and Exodus. So Star Wars wasn't the first to go to shit with the second sequel.

Yeah, I tried reading the entire bible at one point and that's where I gave the fuck up. Most people probably do, I could imagine.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 25, 2022, 03:50:21 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on March 12, 2022, 03:55:47 PMSo his son wasn't sacrificed for mankind's sins and would find the significance placed on it sinful?
The sacrifice of Jesus was not a blood sacrifice, I was a True Sacrifice of God:
Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

-God delights not in blood sacrifices, neither accepts them:

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

-Those Priests and Pharisees, who killed Him didn't have their sins remmited, because they blood sacrificed a Perfect Lamb, no. They had their condemnation increased, because of their wickedness: shedding innocent blood. And Great Tribulation came upon that "generation of vipers", "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Quote from: aitm on March 13, 2022, 10:09:19 AMIf the Scripture dishonors Him, it is not Scripture, because He can't contradict Himself.
What you missed about blood sacrifice in the bible, is that it is not allowed, it is wicked and abominable

And yet the entire book of Deuteronomy is about god telling his peeps what animal sacrifices he wants to forgive certain sins. Seems like the omniscient one changed his mind...lolol
He didn't change His mind. He was misrepresented: "An enemy did this":

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Ezekiel 5:6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Cassia on March 25, 2022, 04:36:16 PM
Yeah, the whole "lamb of gawd" and "drink of my blood", yada yada yada had nothing to do with a typical blood sacrifice /s...yeah we get that because then the son of god is just an animal. Which he is. A great ape actually. If he even existed. It's sketchy.

You do know that most of us don't really care much about the issues causing all the infighting amongst believers. We don't see any evidence that it isn't all just made up like how you probably think other religions were/are all made up.

So stop quoting "Harry Potter" and give us some real evidence. We have been waiting for over 2,000 years.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Blackleaf on March 25, 2022, 05:59:02 PM
Jesus was called the "sacrificial lamb." On the day of Passover, he recontextualized the holiday, with him taking the place of the lamb. On the Passover, the Hebrews killed a lamb, spread its blood over their door, and ate every last bit of the flesh. Those who did so were passed over by the angel of death. None of those parallels make sense if Jesus wasn't a blood sacrifice.

The problems you bring up against the idea of Jesus as a blood sacrifice don't help your case. You're just showing the holes in logic in the Christian religion. A sacrifice is supposed to be given to show that you take your misdeeds seriously, and to show that you are sorry. But with Christianity, God gives Jesus as a sacrifice...to himself...to forgive us. It makes no sense.

There was an early variant of Christianity which made more sense, IMO. In it, they saw Jesus' god and the god of Earth as two separate and opposed dieties. The god of the world was evil, and Jesus' god sent him to offer a way out of the evil god's torturous existence. Their sect wasn't on the winning side, though. They're lost to time, while the dumbest version of Christianity went on. The one which says that there are three gods who are actually one god.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 25, 2022, 07:43:32 PM
Quote from: Cassia on March 25, 2022, 04:36:16 PMgive us some real evidence
John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 25, 2022, 05:59:02 PMto show that you are sorry
Shedding innocent blood, doesn't show you are sorry, it just shows you haven't learned a thing. What shows you have repented is if you "Go and sin no more", and "walk in the Light", "Keep my commandments". These are what shows if someone has repented or not. Any one can kill a lamb, but only those who keep His commandments abide in Him.
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 25, 2022, 05:59:02 PMGod gives Jesus as a sacrifice...to himself...to forgive us. It makes no sense.
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

-The sacrifice of Jesus can only remmit sins if the believer repents. Because not even He, can remmit the sins of those who don't repent, neither can He retain the sins of those who do indeed repent:

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Cassia on March 25, 2022, 08:44:51 PM
All 'HE'/s had to do is give us the germ theory of disease or E=mc2. No, we get cheap parlor tricks stories like water to wine and are told lepers have demons, oh and don't wash your hands before you eat. That 'the end' will go down while some disciples are still alive. Fail. Slavery is kosher but don't covet an ass. We know how modern religions like Mormonism and all that L.RON Hubbard nonsense took root. Same deal.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mike Cl on March 25, 2022, 09:12:38 PM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 25, 2022, 07:43:32 PMJohn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.Shedding innocent blood, doesn't show you are sorry, it just shows you haven't learned a thing. What shows you have repented is if you "Go and sin no more", and "walk in the Light", "Keep my commandments". These are what shows if someone has repented or not. Any one can kill a lamb, but only those who keep His commandments abide in Him.Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

-The sacrifice of Jesus can only remmit sins if the believer repents. Because not even He, can remmit the sins of those who don't repent, neither can He retain the sins of those who do indeed repent:

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.



I know you are probably a drive-by; if not, then go to the intro page and introduce yourself.  Jesus and god are manmade fictions.  The bible/bibles (there isn't one 'bible', there are literally hundreds of different ones) are manmade.  So, you are trying to establish facts with fiction(s).  Doesn't work for me.  (and yes, I've read the entire bible--one of them, anyway)  Can you provide us with any facts or factual data to show us heathens that Jesus, god, any bible is not manmade? 
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 26, 2022, 10:09:44 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 25, 2022, 09:12:38 PMCan you provide us with any facts or factual data to show us heathens that Jesus, god
Yes, anything your eyes can see:

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

-The reason some don't see it, is because it wasn't given to them to see it:

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mike Cl on March 26, 2022, 10:31:59 AM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 26, 2022, 10:09:44 AMYes, anything your eyes can see:

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

-The reason some don't see it, is because it wasn't given to them to see it:

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
You are still doing it.  Quoting a piece of fiction--yes, your bible, and all others, are a work of fiction.  It would be like me quoting from Bugs Bunny or a Stephen King novel to provide 'facts' to back up an argument.  Can you supply any empirical data to demonstrate that god or jesus or any 'scriptures' are accurate or even real???  Of course you can't, so you just go back to your favored fictions.  I guess that is okay for you, but is laughable for me.  So just keep on making me laugh (and shaking my head in sadness).
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: the_antithesis on March 26, 2022, 01:21:05 PM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 26, 2022, 10:09:44 AM-The reason some don't see it, is because it wasn't given to them to see it:

Then why are you here? If we don't believe in your god, by this reasoning, it is because your god doesn't want us to believe in it.

So, why are you thwarting your god's plan?
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 26, 2022, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: the_antithesis on March 26, 2022, 01:21:05 PMThen why are you here? If we don't believe in your god, by this reasoning, it is because your god doesn't want us to believe in it.

So, why are you thwarting your god's plan?
There was one here who needed to hear the Word, I'm not here for you, who weren't given.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: the_antithesis on March 26, 2022, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 26, 2022, 03:02:26 PMThere was one here who needed to hear the Word, I'm not here for you, who weren't given.
Did your god tell you that or are you ruining things again?
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mike Cl on March 26, 2022, 05:24:02 PM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 26, 2022, 03:02:26 PMThere was one here who needed to hear the Word, I'm not here for you, who weren't given.
Hahahahahahahahahahah!!!!! :histerical:
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Blackleaf on March 26, 2022, 10:40:28 PM
If you're not actually going to respond to any of our points, you're basically admitting defeat. Incidentally, I used to be like you, Daniel. I thought I was one of God's chosen elect, and my life was evidence of that. I was involved in more ministries than I could count, I felt more at home at church than in my own house, and there was nothing more important to me than following God's will for my life. Problem is, once you see through the bullshit, the cat's out of the bag. Better dig your head deep in that sand, Daniel. If it could happen to me, it can happen to you.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Cassia on March 26, 2022, 11:44:21 PM
it is all the same.....why is this still up?
https://www.heavensgate.com/
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: the_antithesis on March 27, 2022, 02:28:21 PM
Hale-bopp, ba duba dop
Ba du bop, ba duba dop
Ba du bop, ba duba dop
Ba du, oh yeah
Hale-bopp, ba duba dop
Ba du bop, ba du dop
Ba du bop, ba du dop
Ba du, yeah
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 28, 2022, 10:03:48 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 26, 2022, 10:40:28 PMIf you're not actually going to respond to any of our points, you're basically admitting defeat.
I answered your point on blood sacrifice, it is an abomination. If you can't answer back you are basically admitting defeat.

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

It goes to show you never really loved Him, nor believed. Because if you had believe, He would have revealed Himself to you:

Psalm 119:100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

-You have never seen Him nor known Him:

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

-And as for your returning to your folly:

Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

-I hope you never knew the Way of Righteousness, because if you did, and forsook it...

2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mike Cl on March 28, 2022, 10:09:31 AM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 28, 2022, 10:03:48 AMI answered your point on blood sacrifice, it is an abomination. If you can't answer back you are basically admitting defeat.


I (we) answered you back.  Yet you are too stupid, ignorant, cowardly, brain dead to answer our question.  Supply some data to demonstrate that your bible, jesus, god are NOT fictions.  Your quoting from your bible is equal to me quoting Elmer Fudd to prove any point. 

This isn't about you 'defeating' us or us 'defeating' you.  It should be about the exchange of ideas (or ideals) using logic and good sense.  Oops!  You are a christian, so I do realize that logic and good sense are not part of your world.  I do feel sorry for you.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Cassia on March 28, 2022, 11:09:33 AM
sinneth....ahhhh lol...quoteth in ye olde English me thiketh you so smart...
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Blackleaf on March 28, 2022, 11:14:08 AM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 28, 2022, 10:03:48 AMI answered your point on blood sacrifice, it is an abomination.

No, you did not. You ignored my points. You didn't even try to refute them. Instead, you just cherrypicked some unrelated Bible verses.

Quote from: Daniel L. on March 28, 2022, 10:03:48 AMIt goes to show you never really loved Him, nor believed. Because if you had believe, He would have revealed Himself to you

Yeah, you have to believe that, don't you? If you had known me back then, you'd have had no doubt that I was saved. But since you're only getting to know me now, you think you can tell ME about MYSELF, as if you know me better than I do. Take your circular logic and shove it up your ass.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Blackleaf on March 28, 2022, 11:19:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 28, 2022, 10:09:31 AMI (we) answered you back.  Yet you are too stupid, ignorant, cowardly, brain dead to answer our question.  Supply some data to demonstrate that your bible, jesus, god are NOT fictions.  Your quoting from your bible is equal to me quoting Elmer Fudd to prove any point. 

This isn't about you 'defeating' us or us 'defeating' you.  It should be about the exchange of ideas (or ideals) using logic and good sense.  Oops!  You are a christian, so I do realize that logic and good sense are not part of your world.  I do feel sorry for you.

Daniel believes that people are saved when God wills them to be, not when they are convinced by logic or facts. He can't admit it, but he knows he has nothing. He just hopes that by spreading "Word of God," God will do his magic trick on someone he preordained to be saved. Of course, one has to wonder why God couldn't have just done that himself instead of relying on some dipshit on the internet. Anyway, trying to reason with this guy is a waste of time.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 28, 2022, 02:27:23 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 28, 2022, 11:14:08 AMyou think you can tell ME about MYSELF, as if you know me better than I do.
Not, me. The Word rebukes you:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

-You went out from us that it might be made manifest, that you were not of us.
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 28, 2022, 11:19:34 AMDaniel believes that
In your own words: "you think you can tell me about MYSELF, as if you know me better than I do." I can rebuke blood sacrifices again, if that is what you really want. But if you have any other point, just let me know.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 28, 2022, 10:09:31 AMSupply some data
You rejected my data, which is:"everything that exists", but you are not the judge here, you don't get to decide if God exists or not. If you had eyes too see, you would see Him, but because of your blindness, you are left in ignorance, and because you don't humble yourself in your lack of knowledge, you don't seek it, and as long as you think you already have it, you will never find it.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mike Cl on March 28, 2022, 02:43:55 PM
I see Daniel.  You are a closed system.  Your head is empty and your heart tiny.  Have a good life.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 28, 2022, 02:48:59 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 28, 2022, 02:43:55 PMYour head is empty and your heart tiny.
Well, that is just your opinion man:

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Proverbs 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mike Cl on March 28, 2022, 03:54:34 PM
And you just proved it again. Empty head, tiny heart and gullible to the max.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 28, 2022, 05:11:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 28, 2022, 03:54:34 PMAnd you just proved it again. Empty head, tiny heart and gullible to the max.
Have you got any empirical evidence? Can you show any "data"? Or are you just quoting from The words of Mike Cl? You realize I don't even believe this Mike Cl, It would be like me quoting from Bugs Bunny to try to prove anything.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Blackleaf on March 28, 2022, 05:40:37 PM
We've spent more time talking to this brick wall than actually discussing the thread topic. I vote we ignore him.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 29, 2022, 08:09:55 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on March 28, 2022, 05:40:37 PMWe've spent more time talking to this brick wall than actually discussing the thread topic. I vote we ignore him.
Thread topic is rebuked. Blood sacrifices are an abomination. And we are not saved because we "think God exists":
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

-You can ignore me for now, but not for long.

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 29, 2022, 08:26:50 AM
Look, haven't checked in on this thread for a while, if ever.

Probably going to say something that's been said before.

Pardon me for being lazy.

But isn't the death of Jesus supposed to be a blood sacrifice?
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 29, 2022, 08:53:36 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 29, 2022, 08:26:50 AMBut isn't the death of Jesus supposed to be a blood sacrifice?
I understand the majority thinks this way, because they are carnally minded, and were not given to understand it from the Father. But Jesus made it plain and clear, when He taught us:
John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

-His Blood is His Truth, His Way and His Life. The carnal red blood profiteth nothing, the Words are Spirit:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

-The only Blood sacrifice Jesus was involved in, was the True Sacrifice of shedding His Life, His Truth and His Way, which is the Light of the world. All of these are food indeed, and drink indeed, for the Spirit that is. But the carnally minded cannot receive the things of the Spirit, so they think it was a carnal sacrifice where He shed His carnal red blood, which I already showed it is an abomination:

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Jeremiah 7:5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

Hosea 8:12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the Lord accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.


Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: SGOS on March 29, 2022, 08:59:52 AM
Christian semantics and gibberish makes a stew of nonsense. 
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: aitm on March 29, 2022, 10:44:43 AM
Quoting nonsense makes everything better eh?
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: the_antithesis on March 29, 2022, 11:04:03 AM
Every time you quote a bible passage, I believe you less.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 29, 2022, 02:20:51 PM
Quote from: aitm on March 29, 2022, 10:44:43 AMnonsense
Well, that is just your opinion man:

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
Quote from: the_antithesis on March 29, 2022, 11:04:03 AMEvery time you quote a bible passage, I believe you less.
Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.


-I was just showing him what the Bible really says, since there were some here speaking of what they don't know, and talking about what they don't understand. Not knowing what they do:

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 29, 2022, 05:17:53 PM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 29, 2022, 08:53:36 AMI understand the majority thinks this way, because they are carnally minded, and were not given to understand it from the Father. But Jesus made it plain and clear, when He taught us:
John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

-His Blood is His Truth, His Way and His Life. The carnal red blood profiteth nothing, the Words are Spirit:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

-The only Blood sacrifice Jesus was involved in, was the True Sacrifice of shedding His Life, His Truth and His Way, which is the Light of the world. All of these are food indeed, and drink indeed, for the Spirit that is. But the carnally minded cannot receive the things of the Spirit, so they think it was a carnal sacrifice where He shed His carnal red blood, which I already showed it is an abomination:

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Jeremiah 7:5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

Hosea 8:12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the Lord accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.




Well there are a lot of pro stances in the bible regarding blood sacrifice, if i´m not mistaken.
Most of all, though I don't think exclusively, in the old testament.

But not regarding those, i´m capable of believing that you believe the bible tells you that blood sacrifice is an abomination.
In my view, the bible works that way, you can take from it what you bring into it, especially if you keep some blinders on.

Bur you say it yourself. ´-The only Blood sacrifice Jesus was involved in, was the True Sacrifice of shedding His Life, His Truth and His Way, which is the Light of the world.´
Still sounds like a blood sacrifice, to me. And to you apparently. Right? I mean, I don´t know about you per se, but i sure as hell don´t think the story of the death of Jesus was meant to be that God could sacrifice His own flesh and blood of His only begotten son/himself to himself to literally eat the flesh and blood of His son/himself.

And I don´t see how that´s different from sacrificing a scapegoat. Loading all the sins and troubles of the family or the tribe onto one innocent beast of burden and then offering it to the Lord. The intended effect was the same; to cleane the Spirit of those who participated in the ritual. That´s a well know Ancient practice.

I mean, spoiler if you´ve never seen midsommar, but [spoiler] that cult in the movie too performer a blood sacrifice of all the visitors and a few of their own membres, to purify the soul of the clan. It´s fucked up, wend all agree, but the principe is the same.[/spoiler] And I don't reach that conclusion for myself because i´m ´carnally´ minded, but because I understand that especially in Ancient times human understanding of body and spirit were intertwined in ways we nowadays would most likely not link with our current understanding of the world. And that I understand that written text does not evolve, or at least not remotely in the same capacity and at the same speed, as our understanding of the world, leading to the need for mental gymnastics and word games to try to keep on clinging to an outdated concept.
Again. My humble opinion.


But i´m glad to hear you don´t think slaughtering animale or people will bring glory to your God or put you in His favor.
That´s good. That´s a good thing, for sure.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Cassia on March 29, 2022, 06:27:27 PM

And I don´t see how that´s different from sacrificing a scapegoat. Loading all the sins and troubles of the family or the tribe onto one innocent beast of burden and then offering it to the Lord. The intended effect was the same; to cleane the Spirit of those who participated in the ritual. That´s a well know Ancient practice.

Yeah, the entire premise of christianity is immoral. It's like letting old grandma do prison time for the grandson. Christians never look into the secular historicity, origin and literary studies of their allegorical scriptures. Well, because that would be their end of faith. Remember not to rely on your own intelligence.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 29, 2022, 06:50:15 PM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 29, 2022, 05:17:53 PMIn my view, the bible works that way, you can take from it what you bring into it, especially if you keep some blinders on.
Yes, you can take almost anything you want from the Bible. But If you take the passages that Honor Him as True, and the ones who dishonor Him as false, you will come to True Knowledge. Because Scripture cannot dishonor Himself, so any passage that dishonors Him is, therefore, not Scripture. So when your brothers want to talk about the passages that dishonor Him, they are not even talking about our True Scripture, they talk about their own:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

-Our Scripture tells us there was corruption of the covenant of Levi, and that the blood sacrifices didn't came from Our Father, they came from yours:

Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the Lord is with us'? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.

Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

Ezekiel 5:6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

-And those are not "blinders", it is called having Spiritual Discernment, to be able to hear His True voice, and don't follow after the voice of Strangers:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 29, 2022, 05:17:53 PMStill sounds like a blood sacrifice, to me.
Not carnal red blood, there is nothing wrong with spreading Truth and Life.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 29, 2022, 05:17:53 PMLoading all the sins and troubles of the family or the tribe onto one innocent beast of burden and then offering it to the Lord.
There you go again, speaking of your own, because our Father doesn't accept such offerings, He hates them:

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

-So we both agree on the wickedness of blood sacrifices, so when you bash on blood sacrifices you bash on your own, which is where they came from, not on us. The difference between you and me is that when I saw His death on the Cross, I was filled with remorse, because it is so unfair that the innocent should die like that. But you seem to have a heart of stone, and couldn't care less about justice or the death of the innocent. And while I repent of all my sins for Him, in a True sacrifice of a broken hearth, you keep living in yours, and are liken unto "those who pierced him", a blood sacrificer yourself, aren't you?
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Shiranu on March 29, 2022, 07:12:14 PM
QuoteThe sacrifice of Jesus was not a blood sacrifice, I was a True Sacrifice of God:
Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


What is your opinion on the Trinity? Is God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit one single entity, or are they three entities that make up one?


If it is the first, then it doesn't make it any less of a blood sacrifice - all it is saying that the "God" aspect of the trinity had a broken heart, not that Jesus' blood was not spilt - an act we "know" happened due to the accounts of the 4 Gospels. If it's the latter, then it is ultimately irrelevant; Jesus is the one making the blood sacrifice, not God, so that line has no bearing to the topic.

The rest is irrelevant because it doesn't matter how much you say you hate something; it is your actions that ultimately affect people, not your words.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Hydra009 on March 29, 2022, 10:31:46 PM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 29, 2022, 06:50:15 PMThe difference between you and me is that when I saw His death on the Cross, I was filled with remorse, because it is so unfair that the innocent should die like that.
And yet Christianity would not exist otherwise, allegedly.  Seems like the sort of thing that a lot of people take very positively.

Only someone with no religious stake - like say, an atheist - would view that sort of torturous execution, especially for dubious offenses, as a barbaric and cruel waste of life rather than some sort of inspirational thing.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 04:32:11 AM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 29, 2022, 06:50:15 PMYes, you can take almost anything you want from the Bible. But If you take the passages that Honor Him as True, and the ones who dishonor Him as false, you will come to True Knowledge. Because Scripture cannot dishonor Himself, so any passage that dishonors Him is, therefore, not Scripture. So when your brothers want to talk about the passages that dishonor Him, they are not even talking about our True Scripture, they talk about their own:
-Our Scripture tells us there was corruption of the covenant of Levi, and that the blood sacrifices didn't came from Our Father, they came from yours:
-And those are not "blinders", it is called having Spiritual Discernment, to be able to hear His True voice, and don't follow after the voice of Strangers:
Not carnal red blood, there is nothing wrong with spreading Truth and Life. There you go again, speaking of your own, because our Father doesn't accept such offerings, He hates them:
And how do you know that your spiritual discernment is correct? What do you base that on? And what do you bring forth to convince anyone that yours is more accurate than someone elses. Or don't you think that many who call themselves Christians come to different conclusions about different things in the bible, than you?
I'll say for me that, while you claim it's not 'blinders', it does appear in every way to be similar to picking and choosing for things that fit, conform to and add to a premade worldview. And if you would agree with me that other people who claim to be Christians come to different conclusions, regardless of whether they are right to do so or not, can you then not agree that  such mistakes or misguidances can happen? And indeed do, to most people who study the bible. Even people in your own congress might have small differing opinions on what is 'true scripture' and what is not. And three churches over, they most likely do.
So if we can accept that people can be misled, or mistaken or misguided by the Devil (for all I care) into accepting the wrong notions as the right notions... Then to someone who does not even believe in any of the scripture, like me, can you understand that I simply think these mistakes can happen to you just as easily as they might happen to someone else?
I mean, I don't want to assume you think that other Christians think other things than you do, but the fact that they do is in my opinion plain and simple.  And if you think they are wrong, know I just think the same, only for a few people more.
Quote-So we both agree on the wickedness of blood sacrifices, so when you bash on blood sacrifices you bash on your own, which is where they came from, not on us. The difference between you and me is that when I saw His death on the Cross, I was filled with remorse, because it is so unfair that the innocent should die like that. But you seem to have a heart of stone, and couldn't care less about justice or the death of the innocent.
Well, I sure am blessed to have you around to tell me what I think and feel and believe.
Here I was, assured that I was someone with love in my heart who tries, in his own extremely limited way, to make the world a better and more fair place. Who does not believe in an eternal equalizer beyond death, to  make everything right as rain, and who therefor thinks that we should do our utmost best to make this short and  fleeting existence as good and fair for everyone for everyone, exactly because we can't fall back on it being set right after we die. But hey, after two replies on the internet, you seem to have completely psychoanalyzed me and found me to be a heartless psychopath. Thanks.
Look dude, I'm doing my best not to tell you what you think or feel. Indeed I think conversations flow better that way. See, I'm mostly trying to get you to clarify not just what you think, but also why you believe it. That's not going well because of all the scripture you are posting, which is what you believe apparently but does nothing to address why you believe it. But that's okay, for me, for now. I'm a patient man, we can take this step by step.
QuoteAnd while I repent of all my sins for Him, in a True sacrifice of a broken hearth, you keep living in yours, and are liken unto "those who pierced him", a blood sacrificer yourself, aren't you?
I don't see why I would be. I didn't sacrifice Jesus. I didn't ask for Jesus to be sacrificed. I indeed find the entire concept of such a sacrifice to be abhorrent. And if I believed it to be true, I don't think I would accept it. Because I would undoubtedly feel empathic to the man of flesh and blood that has suffered so, but I would not want him to carry my sins for me. If there is such a thing as sin,  it is my burden to bear. I will not have that man suffer on my behalf. And while we could not, in my view, ever set right what would have happened to him, if he were real... We could do the honorable thing and not exploit his death and suffering for personal gain. We could try to live by his example, and try to sacrifice ourselves for others. But never accept someone else's suffering as payment for our own salvation. That, I think would be participating in the blood sacrifice, more than any Neptune-worshipping Roman who drove the nails through his wrists and did not know what he was doing.
Supposedly.

I mean, look at Anne Frank. It's horrible what happened to her and her people. Monstrous. Impossible to set right. Absolutely sickening.
But of her, we know she lived. She was real.
Would it not sicken you to your stomach if I were to now say, that Anne Frank died so that we may live? That she went through hell on earth so that we would not have to face the eternal gas-chambers after death? That she faced the beast and the lake of fire so that we need not? That Anne Frank, an innocent lamb of God, pure and uncorrupted by the world, died for me? And that if we accept that she died for our misgivings and our wickedness, she will not have died in vain.
That would be horrible! It would take away from her who she was a person. I would not want that for her, on my behalf. I doubt anyone here would.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 30, 2022, 06:29:44 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on March 29, 2022, 07:12:14 PMWhat is your opinion on the Trinity?
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:[...]

There are Three Divine Persons, all Three Uncreated Creators, Eternal, And These Three are One. The example is man: Adam, Eve and their son. They are three different persons, but are one family. All three are required in order for the other two to live, so all three must exist in order for them to exist.
Quote from: Shiranu on March 29, 2022, 07:12:14 PMit doesn't matter how much you say you hate something; it is your actions that ultimately affect people, not your words.
Yes, the action of Jesus was: He spread the Truth and Life in His Way, which is the Light of the world, a True Sacrifice of God, a broken heart.
Now, the actions of the priests and pharisees, was murder and shedding innocent blood. So, as you can see, it wasn't Jesus who shed His own innocent blood, He was crucified by others, He didn't crucify Himself did He?


Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 30, 2022, 07:02:36 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 04:32:11 AMAnd how do you know that your spiritual discernment is correct? What do you base that on?
It is based on: Scripture cannot dishonor Himself, He cannot contradict Himself. So, any thing that speak against His righteousness, is therefore, not Scripture, only those who Honor Him and speak of Him as Righteous can be considered Scripture. And I can't be wrong about that. He cannot contradict Himself, or He wouldn't be Perfect. So because He is Perfect in Nature, He cannot contradict Himself.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 04:32:11 AMI was someone with love in my heart
Do you think you can lie, or are you forbidden by Law from lying. And if you are not under a Law, but do what you will, then you could be lying. And if you could be lying how do expect me to believe anything you say? For all I know you could be lying, right? As for me, I am forbidden by Law from ever lying, and I cannot lie to you, ever.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 04:32:11 AMI would not want him to carry my sins for me. If there is such a thing as sin,  it is my burden to bear. I will not have that man suffer on my behalf.
This is good to hear, because if you put your money where your mouth is, you would cease from sin, because your sin is also in His burded that He carried to the Cross. So, if you honestly don't want Him to carry your sins for you, you would repent of your sins and be washed clean, and your sins would be forgiven and not a burden for Him to carry, they would be light as Light:

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 04:32:11 AMWe could do the honorable thing and not exploit his death and suffering for personal gain. We could try to live by his example, and try to sacrifice ourselves for others. But never accept someone else's suffering as payment for our own salvation.
Yes, you get the message. That is how He takes the sin from the world, at least from all the honest working people like you and me, who don't exploit His death for personal gain and do nothing, but rather follow His example in a True Sacrifice for others, repenting of their sins, feeding the poor, Loving God with all their hearts, and their neighbour as themselves.
-And as for the sacrifice being a payment for our salvation, I'm glad you see that is not the case, a person has to work to get paid, there are no "free gifts", and Scripture also rebukes this idea of "free effortless reward":

Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 09:21:43 AM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 30, 2022, 07:02:36 AMIt is based on: Scripture cannot dishonor Himself, He cannot contradict Himself. So, any thing that speak against His righteousness, is therefore, not Scripture, only those who Honor Him and speak of Him as Righteous can be considered Scripture. And I can't be wrong about that. He cannot contradict Himself, or He wouldn't be Perfect. So because He is Perfect in Nature, He cannot contradict Himself.
Well... You can be wrong about that.  I mean, let alone that this is pure circular reasoning. People with the same reasoning, in base, can and do come to different outcomes. So at least someone must be. Saying that you can't be wrong about that, thus, means nothing.
I mean, even if we concede, purely for argument's sake mind you, that the bible is the perfect word of God and that the parts of scripture that honor him are therefor "true scripture" and those that dishonor God are "false scripture", you and other people who study the bible and us that really don't are all not infallible. For starters, your notion of what text honors or dishonors him, would already be based on a subjective notion of what a God ought to be. A preconceived idea of what perfection would entail. Of your own interpretation of what Justice and righteousness actually are.
QuoteDo you think you can lie, or are you forbidden by Law from lying. And if you are not under a Law, but do what you will, then you could be lying. And if you could be lying how do expect me to believe anything you say? For all I know you could be lying, right? As for me, I am forbidden by Law from ever lying, and I cannot lie to you, ever.
Yes, I can lie. But if I told you that I couldn't , because I was under a Law forbidding me from lying, would you take my word as a valid proof that I could never lie? That seems asinine to me. I'm sure as hell not extending that courtesy to anyone.
That being said, let me make it absolutely clear I'm not saying you are lying. People can believe something wholeheartedly and be convinced that they are absolutely in the right, and still be wrong. That's exactly why it's important to always test your idea's and question your own reasoning. If you do so, you'll still wind up wrong a lot of the time, but you'll be giving it your intellectually honest best go at being as little wrong as possible.
QuoteThis is good to hear, because if you put your money where your mouth is, you would cease from sin, because your sin is also in His burded that He carried to the Cross. So, if you honestly don't want Him to carry your sins for you, you would repent of your sins and be washed clean, and your sins would be forgiven and not a burden for Him to carry, they would be light as Light:
Well, that's a guilt-trip if I ever saw one.
So let me get this straight. 1) I don't ask for Jesus to carry my sins. 2) I take no part in this blood-sacrifice, which's goal it is to  cleanse my spirit. 3) Jesus, the incarnation of the almighty God chooses to carry my sins regardless and is now burdened by them. 4) I have to come to love him and believe in him and trust in him so that he, an allpowerful god, doesn't have to feel burdened by them. Effectively commanding me to take part in this blood-sacrifice because the system he chose to set up in such a way that I myself can't be the sole bearer of my own sins. 5) If I don't let Jesus carry my sins and make them light as light but instead say that he doesn't have to carry them at all, I get to burn in hell forever.
Is that about right?

Quick edit: In order that I don't misrepresent or misinterpret you, I would like to ask a very important question. Well three actually. I do hope you'll respond regarding what you believe. (No quoted scripture necessary, I assure you.). Do you believe the god you believe in to be all-powerful? Do you believe him to be all-knowing? And do you believe him to be the creator of "everything". (If that's to vague a concept, then the universe/multiverse we live in.)
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Blackleaf on March 30, 2022, 12:50:35 PM
Mr.Obvious, I don't know why you bother putting so much effort into these replies. You know he's not going to engage honestly with any of your questions. He's just going to cherrypick a few sentences out of your paragraphs and copy/paste the Bible at you.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 01:12:17 PM
I can´t control what he´ll do and who he wants to be, blackleaf.
I can only portray myself in the way I would like to be treated in kind.


Plus, you know, I do love argueing this stuff.
It's like eating spicy food, I don´t know why I like the burn. But I do.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 30, 2022, 03:12:10 PM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 09:21:43 AMYou can be wrong about that.
No, Scripture cannot be wrong, He cannot contradict Himself, because He is Perfect. If you think Perfection can contradict Itself, you are just wrong about that.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 09:21:43 AMYes, I can lie.
There you go, or you could be lying, so you are the last place on earth anyone should go for truth, as a matter of fact, no truth can ever be established or asserted by you, because you could be lying. That is why we need a God who is Perfect and Holy to tell us the Truth, or else we would have none, from ourselves. And the only One who cannnot lie is Jesus. The only way you will ever know a singular sentence to be absolute Truth, is if Jesus said it, or His Father. That is the only way to get absolute infallible Truth, without any possibility of error.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 09:21:43 AMI myself can't be the sole bearer of my own sins.
Look, you can bear them all you want, but in the end sins must be cleansed, because my Father doesn't like them. You are going to be cleansed either way. So, it would be better for you to forsake them now, and wash yourself in water, than to be purged with fire later. You are trying to make this more confusing than it is, just know and be sure, that Justice exists, wheter you believe it or not, and that you must cease from evil, or evil won't cease from you. This is our Faith:

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

-And God gave you free-will, you can choose whom will ye serve, but if you reject Him, is because your deeds were evil:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 09:21:43 AMDo you believe the god you believe in to be all-powerful? Do you believe him to be all-knowing?
Yes, yes.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 09:21:43 AMAnd do you believe him to be the creator of "everything".
He created everything that is good. At the end of the creation week He saw all that He had made was very good. Even the serpent, was just an animal of the field, when He created it. But then the serpent sinned, and mind you, sin was not created by God, sin was created by the serpent and her lusts, who together begat a lie.
So, sin is of the Devil, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 30, 2022, 03:12:10 PMNo, Scripture cannot be wrong, He cannot contradict Himself, because He is Perfect.


Again, not arguing here that scripture is wrong, though you have admitted there is false scripture. I'm giving you this, in a hypothetical situation: The right scripture can't be wrong. Fine.
But YOU can be wrong, regardless.

Here, let me show you.

QuoteAnd the only One who cannnot lie is Jesus.

QuoteFor all I know you could be lying, right? As for me, I am forbidden by Law from ever lying, and I cannot lie to you, ever.

Are you Jesus, Daniel? Are you my lord and saviour?

Even if we were to accept premise one, that Jesus is infallible; you most certainly are not.  Not saying you were lying, in either of these quotes. But you were wrong in at least one of them.

as to this stuff:

Quote-And God gave you free-will, you can choose whom will ye serve, but if you reject Him, is because your deeds were evil:

He created everything that is good. At the end of the creation week He saw all that He had made was very good. Even the serpent, was just an animal of the field, when He created it. But then the serpent sinned, and mind you, sin was not created by God, sin was created by the serpent and her lusts, who together begat a lie.
So, sin is of the Devil, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Seeing as you deem the god you believe in to be allpowerful, allknowing and the creator of existence, i have a whole thing about this. I find it logically inconsistent. I could go into it, if you want and are open to the conversation.

Open conversations do work better if you are not assuming that I am lying though. Truth be told.

And as to this stuff regarding me bearing my own sins, if such a concept were to be real:
QuoteLook, you can bear them all you want, but in the end sins must be cleansed, because my Father doesn't like them. You are going to be cleansed either way. So, it would be better for you to forsake them now, and wash yourself in water, than to be purged with fire later.
I'll take my chances then, and do what I think is morally right, intellectually honest and logical.
In my view.


Done editing.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: the_antithesis on March 30, 2022, 04:11:22 PM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 30, 2022, 03:12:10 PMNo, Scripture cannot be wrong, He cannot contradict Himself, because He is Perfect.

Your problem is you started there. You did not examine your scriptures and determine that they were without error. You decided that they were perfect before you had copy+pasted a single word.

You are a poor witness because you are not of noble character. (Acts 17:11)
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 30, 2022, 04:52:39 PM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 03:48:44 PMyou have admitted there is false scripture
No, there is no such thing as"false scripture" I said if is false, is therefore not Scripture because Scripture can only be True.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 03:48:44 PMBut you were wrong in at least one of them.
Look, I get it you have no argument so you can only attack my person, it's fine. I can be wrong, but Jesus cannot be wrong. That is the point. Now, to defend myself, I meant: I am not allowed by law to lie, I "cannot" lie, because the Law forbids me. But Jesus He cannot possibly lie, not only because of Law, but because He is Perfect in Nature, so it is impossible for Him to lie, not even an accident, there is no possible way for Him to lie. So, I could be wrong, but Jesus cannot be wrong.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 03:48:44 PMI find it logically inconsistent.
What do you find logically inconsistent? I'm not assuming, Truth is you could be wrong, the only one that couldn't be wrong is God, so we can check on His Word if we need clarification. Because He cannot be "logically inconsistent", nor can anything about Him, nor what He does, so, the problem is not with God, is with you, and your own understanding.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 30, 2022, 03:48:44 PMI'll take my chances then, and do what I think is morally right, intellectually honest and logical.
In my view.
What can be more "morally right" than loving your neighbour as thyself? What can be more "logical" than loving God with all your hearth? There is not one "view" given by men, not yours, not any, that is better or more Just or more "intellectually honest" than His View, His Way, His Holy Law is Perfect:

Proverbs 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Shiranu on March 30, 2022, 05:24:54 PM
QuoteThere are Three Divine Persons, all Three Uncreated Creators, Eternal, And These Three are One. The example is man: Adam, Eve and their son. They are three different persons, but are one family. All three are required in order for the other two to live, so all three must exist in order for them to exist.

Then the quote you shared does not have bearing to the topic, because it is speaking of God the creator's sacrifice, not Jesus the Eternals.


Quote Now, the actions of the priests and pharisees, was murder and shedding innocent blood. So, as you can see, it wasn't Jesus who shed His own innocent blood, He was crucified by others, He didn't crucify Himself did He?


Then by that logic the blood sacrifice was completely irrelevant to the message of Christ; it had no sway on salvation as it was not carried out for mankind's salvation - is this not Biblically contradictive?


Likewise, the sheep who has his throat slit does not sacrifice himself either, yet he remains a blood sacrifice all the same.

For as much talk as God gives about hating blood sacrifices, he spends a large amount of his book demanding exactly that from his followers; foreign tribes, people who offend him, people who follow other gods, a king's son, his own son... kinda sounds like he likes blood sacrifices or... more likely... the Old Testament was primarily written by blood-thirsty warlords and religious fanatics looking to legitimize their right to rule the land they just committed ethnic cleansing of multiple Phoenician tribes on.

If we read the Old Testament as a historical document, then it tells the story of religious fanatics who were persecuted for preaching that the one god of their pantheon (El) was better than all the other gods, get their freedom and then go on a murdering spree of anyone who refused to submit to their interpretation of god - all the "good stuff" of the Old Testament was written not by these genocidal fanatics and it shows; it's very clear what parts were written during times of stability and integration with their neighbors and which parts were when they were barbarians... unfortunately Christians kept almost all of the latter (for political reasons) and threw out most of the former as the Church evolved into an empire of it's own.

So just from the start, that is where you stand; arguing from an unreliable book that, if taken literally, means you follow a system of beliefs that were codified and enforced by a bunch of genocidal fanatics that wiped several tribes of Mediterranean peoples off the face of the earth following the Bronze Age collapse of massive empires a few hundred years earlier.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Cassia on March 30, 2022, 05:41:46 PM
At the end of the creation week He saw all that He had made was very good.

Tell us you are not a young earth creationist. Is the Ark Park a museum? Did kangaroos swim to Australia? Unicorns? Dragons? Parting of the Seas? Talking serpents, burning bushes, belly of the whale are all real (inside your head?)
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 31, 2022, 07:59:54 AM
Quote from: Daniel L. on March 30, 2022, 04:52:39 PMNo, there is no such thing as"false scripture" I said if is false, is therefore not Scripture because Scripture can only be True.

With all due respect, tomato-tomahto, no?
False = not true

QuoteLook, I get it you have no argument so you can only attack my person, it's fine.

Oh, no-no-no-no.
I've been doing my utmost best to limit myself to questioning your reasoning. Your up to recently presupposed infallible interpretation of what you deem to be an infallible text, for as far as I understand it, has been key in your claim to authority and your eagerness to dismiss me because I 'could be lying'. If you make yourself part of the claim, that part is fair game my man.
If I were to attack your person, I instead would say something like... I don't know... this?:
QuoteBut you seem to have a heart of stone, and couldn't care less about justice or the death of the innocent.


QuoteI can be wrong, but Jesus cannot be wrong. That is the point. Now, to defend myself, I meant: I am not allowed by law to lie, I "cannot" lie, because the Law forbids me. But Jesus He cannot possibly lie, not only because of Law, but because He is Perfect in Nature, so it is impossible for Him to lie, not even an accident, there is no possible way for Him to lie. So, I could be wrong, but Jesus cannot be wrong.
Right. In this situation, like this entire conversation, I'm giving you the unproven idea that Jesus and his scripture are infallible and cannot be wrong. Proving that would be an entire different conversation, but I'm going with it for the purposes of this conversation.
Now, considering that as we agree, you can be wrong. As can I and everyone, except, for the purposes of this talk, Jesus. You can still interpret Jesus and his scripture wrong. As can I. As can everyone, except, apparently, Jesus. And in fact, people must do so. People, in this view, misinterpret what is actually scripture and what is not, all the time. Even if you don't and you are not  wrong about anything, there is no discernable way to say that you are not and your fellow-churchgoer who comes to a radically different, or even marginally different, conclusion based on the same premises, is. And he might come to a different conclusion because, for example, he might be against homosexuality whilst you are not in principle, and he therefor sees other parts of the bible as 'honoring' god which you don't, whilst seeing other parts as 'dishonoring' god, which you don't.
You are both, in this scenario, still evaluating hypothetically  perfect scripture in a subjective way. Without any way to prove that yours is superior to this other person's. And if this perfect scripture clearly isn't absolutely clear to every single person in the world who tries his or her best to follow it, which it demonstrably isn't because of the vastly different views in different Christian subgroups, none of us can without question accept your interpretation. And you can't, with intellectual honesty, claim that you have a way to know that what you believe wholeheartedly is truly justified.
Which is, without even going into the fact that you, as we now agree 'CAN' lie. Still not saying you are. But not being allowed to lie is not the same as not being able to lie. For all I know, you could be lying even about not being allowed to lie. I mean, I am not allowed to lie. You might not agree with that, but I am not. By my own set of rules and morality and principles, and those of the society that shaped me. Yes, I still can, like you. But I'm not allowed, like, presumably, you.
QuoteWhat do you find logically inconsistent? I'm not assuming, Truth is you could be wrong, the only one that couldn't be wrong is God, so we can check on His Word if we need clarification. Because He cannot be "logically inconsistent", nor can anything about Him, nor what He does, so, the problem is not with God, is with you, and your own understanding.
Sure. I could be wrong. If I am, please point it out. I haven't really found much of what you have offered convincing. As I'm sure you haven't found much of what I've said convincing. But we can both try.
So thank you for asking. And not assuming. Genuinely, thank you.
I'm going to try to be concise though I probably will fail.
You said before that we have free will and that God did not create sin, but that it was the creation of the serpent and his/her lusts.
You have also said that god is All-powerful, All-knowing and created everything good. I'm going to say he created the world as it originally was, then? I think that's fair as apparently sin and wickedness only came in after and he did not create those.
The problem arises when you realize that due to his all-knowingness and his all-powerfullness every possible way to create a world was and is at His disposal 'prior' to creating the world. And he would know what every possible choice and consequence in the created world would be, if he created it in specifically that way or another. For example, your God, if real and possessing the attributes you assign Him, could have created the world such a way that our roles would have been reversed. In which I never turned away from Christianity and you had. And you would have wandered onto this site eight years back and took on the name Mr.Obvious and I would have sprung up a few days ago with a lot of scripture quotes and had been arguing what you are arguing in this reality with you arguing what I am arguing in this reality.
And we would still have 'free will' in that other reality. As much as we do now. If the world had been created in a slightly different way, our life-paths could have been drastically different and led us to very different personal outcomes. This hypothetical God knows what we will choose, because he is all-knowing, in both possible worlds. The fact that he chose to create a world in which you are convinced that you have the right idea of the scripture and I don't believe you or even believe he exists, must therefor be 'his will', if he has the agreed upon attributes.
This is inconsistent with a God that wants everyone to believe in him and be in a relationship with him and know his supposedly infallible way.
Because if he didn't want anyone to 'stray' from his light, he could create the world in such a way that everyone's lifepath would lead to him. He would know how to do so, because he is allknowing. He could do so, because he is allpowerful. He would know what we would choose given what circumstances because, again, he is all-knowing. And thus becoming 'convinced' of God's existence In a hypothetical perfect universe in which everyone becomes convinced of God, is no less free of will than becoming or not becoming convinced of his existence in this reality. Because in both, he knows what you will choose and in both he has chosen, in advance, to make the world in such a specific way out of an infinite amount options for him (being allpowerful), that you would choose what you would choose and you would come to believe what you've become to believe.
In a way, this can tied back to sin, and the problem of evil. God knew the serpent would create sin, with his lusts. You can argue the serpent chose to create sin, freely. But if God had made the world and the Serpent in such a way that it would have chosen not to, it would have been through as much free will, and it would have been possible for him to do so. Again, because he is supposedly all-powerful. Therefore, he chose to create a world in which sin would come to be through the choice of his creations, rather than to create a world in which sin would not come to be, through the choice of his creations.
In the same way, he must have chosen to create world in which people would choose to practice blood-sacrifice to him and inflict suffering upon Jesus, over a world in which they would choose not to do so. By the by.
QuoteWhat can be more "morally right" than loving your neighbour as thyself?
Well, that part falls into my morality and principles. But Christianity does not have a monopoly on that concept. Christianity is not a prerequisite for love or caring about others.
QuoteWhat can be more "logical" than loving God with all your hearth?
You would need a logical reason to believe there is a God, for starters. I think speaking in "more" or "less" logical is a bit weird. But belief in God would have to be more fundamental than any emotions pertaining that Deity. And if you don't find the idea of God to be logical and can find no logic to lead you to God, loving God would be quite illogical indeed.
QuoteThere is not one "view" given by men, not yours, not any, that is better or more Just or more "intellectually honest" than His View, His Way, His Holy Law is Perfect:
If he were real and if he were infallible and perfect. Sure. If.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 31, 2022, 08:25:36 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on March 30, 2022, 05:24:54 PMnot Jesus the Eternals.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Quote from: Shiranu on March 30, 2022, 05:24:54 PMkinda sounds like he likes blood sacrifices
You speak against your own, your father likes blood sacrifice. My Father hates hands that shed innocent blood:

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

-So, you don't speak against us nor our Father, you speak against your own, because My Father didn't cammand blood sacrifices, it was yours that did:

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Daniel L. on March 31, 2022, 09:40:00 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 31, 2022, 07:59:54 AM. You can still interpret Jesus and his scripture wrong.
Yes, but Jesus cannot miscommunicate a message, because He is Perfect in Nature. The reason why not everyone hears the same thing, is because only His sheep are given to understand Him:

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

-So, the differences you may find with different interpretations, are the differences between the sheep and the goats. But as you come close to the core of the subject, you will find no difference, for example: Everyone agrees, God is Perfect, God is Holy, He cannot sin, He cannot lie. And this is my strong foundation, even you will agree Perfection has no imperfection, no spot nor blemish. And God has to be Perfect, or else He wouldn't be God. And this is what you wanted, when you said: "absolutely clear to every single person in the world who tries his or her best to follow it".

-So, it is only from Him that absolute Truth can proceed, from the One who is not able to lie, due to His Perfect Nature, without Him there would be no Truth. So, if you believe in Truth, you believe in Him, for He is the Truth. And I want to ask you to forget about me, and my interpretations, and forget about your interpretations, because we can both be wrong, but focus only on Him who cannot be wrong, because of His Perfect Nature. Because this alone demonstrates His existence, the existence of Truth, which had to proceed from the Mouth of the LORD, since He is the only One who can speak Truth, since all men could be wrong, with the exception of THE Man Jesus Christ. And once we agree on His existence, we can discuss our interpretations of Scripture later, as brothers.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 31, 2022, 07:59:54 AMto make the world in such a specific way out of an infinite amount options for him (being allpowerful), that you would choose what you would choose and you would come to believe what you've become to believe.
Let me clarify on "all powerfull", there are things a Perfect God cannot do, for example: God cannot sin. So, not even a Holy God, can remmit the sins of the unrepentant sinner, for reason of His Perfect Justice. And if the wicked doesn't repent is the wicked's own fault, the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

-So, like I said, you cannot blame God for anything, because God is Blameless, He gave free will to man, because He is Most Just, and because a relationship requires the consent of both parties, which means the only reason there is for the existence of one wicked who does not know God, is that the wicked rejected Him, out of his own free will. Which means there isn't any possible universe where everyone accepted Him, there are always some that reject Him. Because that would eliminate free will, if you think about it, if there would be a universe where everyone accepted Him, the choice of rejecting Him, would be non-existet, leaving all mankind with no other choice, but to accept Him, and that is not free will, and not a relationship.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 31, 2022, 07:59:54 AMYou would need a logical reason to believe there is a God, for starters.
Yes, any logical person who seeks Truth will find Him, for Truth can only be given by a Perfect and Holy God, not by men. Because men could be wrong, but God cannot be wrong. So, worshipping God with all your heart, is the logical thing to do, to thank Him fot telling us the Truth, for saving us from our sins, we owe our lifes to Him.
So, anyone who worships the Mighty One of Israel, show intelligence, show that he knows the Truth, which he received from the Father, and it shows the gratitude of a wise man:

Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.


Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Blackleaf on March 31, 2022, 05:32:58 PM
Every Christian who thinks they've got it right just isn't chosen by God like Daniel is. Daniel has never changed his mind about his interpretations of scripture. He's always been 100% correct.

Cue the humble bragging defense.
Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Unbeliever on August 05, 2022, 01:14:24 PM
So, Jesus can't lie, huh?

How about John 7:8-10, or John 18:20?

Jesus lied about going to a feast, and about only ever teaching in the temple.

Title: Re: How Christianity Perverts Definitions of Good & Evil
Post by: Unbeliever on August 05, 2022, 05:23:29 PM
And according to Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) it is God who creates evil.