What is the most ignorant thing a Christian has told you?

[Contemporary Protestant]

by that logic people like me, who have a good upbringing, have no reason to be immoral
and uneducated orphans have no obligation to be moral

[leo]

He means that the choice of being moral depends of several factors.

[Contemporary Protestant]

alright, i understand now

[aitm]

by that logic people like me, who have a good upbringing, have no reason to be immoral
and uneducated orphans have no obligation to be moral

from your "wa-wa" thread:

my original life span was supposed to be 3 years, so i was once considered one of the ones who wouldnt make it
when i was in Africa, in the slums particularly,

so were you born in the slums or not? It appears that you implied you were born in the slums but you had a good upbringing eh?

Yeah. I think you're all candy and crap, you spin nonsense and believe it and somehow think we can't see its really really stupid excuses to make you think that some wishy washy god out there is not responsible for your conditions because you don't want to admit that shit happens.

It happened to you and it is nothing except chance and you can't handle the fact that your life and death will be all their is. Frankly I don't blame you for feeling pissed off about it, but that doesn't change a thing. Inventing your own wishy washy version of a god based on parts of this or parts of that and bits of this and ignoring all of this and that is rather Ron Hubbard. Invent your own religion, good luck with that, but don't expect anyone with a better than fifth grade education to buy your particular pile of shit.

[Aletheia]

Contemporary Protestant, you bring up a false dichotomy. For you, a person is either good or they are bad, but that's not how human beings are in reality. We are a mixture of good and bad behaviours with the balance varying between individuals. This distribution of good and bad qualities can change over time based on a person's experiences and how they interpret those experiences. That's why the world has good and bad things in it because it is a reflection of our dualistic nature - emotion and logic. Remember, we are one of the very few animals to have a mind like ours (other hominid species died out). Our animal origins are present in our behaviours, instincts, and natural incentives. This can align or be at odds with our logic.

You don't need an external source for your morality. You need only to cultivate your own sense of morality using logic and behaviour modifications.

This short book provided more insight into the dualistic nature of a human being in a more concise way than any other book I've encountered. You want to find the answers, then start with yourself:

As a Man Thinketh

The aphorism, "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he," not only embraces the whole of a man's being, but is so comprehensive as to reach out to every condition and circumstance of his life. A man is literally what he thinks, his character being the complete sum of all his thoughts.

As the plant springs from, and could not be without, the seed, so every act of a man springs from the hidden seeds of thought, and could not have appeared without them. This applies equally to those acts called "spontaneous" and "unpremeditated" as to those which are deliberately executed.

Act is the blossom of thought, and joy and suffering are its fruits; thus does a man garner in the sweet and bitter fruitage of his own husbandry.

    Thought in the mind hath made us. What we are
    By thought we wrought and built. If a man's mind
    Hath evil thoughts, pain comes on him as comes
    The wheel the ox behind . . . If one endure in purity
    of thought joy follows him as his own shadow - sure.

Man is a growth by law, and not a creation by artifice, and cause and effect is as absolute and undeviating in the hidden realm of thought as in the world of visible and material things. A noble and Godlike character is not a thing of favor or chance, but is the natural result of continued effort in right thinking, the effect of long-cherished association with Godlike thoughts. An ignoble and bestial character, by the same process, is the result of the continued harboring of groveling thoughts.

Man is made or unmade by himself; in the armory of thought he forges the weapons by which he destroys himself. He also fashions the tools with which he builds for himself heavenly mansions of joy and strength and peace. By the right choice and true application of thought, man ascends to the Divine Perfection; by the abuse and wrong application of thought, he descends below the level of the beast. Between these two extremes are all the grades of character, and man is their maker and master.

[Contemporary Protestant]

I have traveled to the African Slums, but I was born with a large brain tumor, the tumor is what threatened my life span

on behavior modification, what about cognitive dissonance?

[Aletheia]

on behavior modification, what about cognitive dissonance?

Cognitive dissonance happens when you fail to make a choice. You use logic to pick the one that is most honest and fits best with reality. Until you make that choice, cognitive dissonance will continue to cause you distress. The final choice will not necessarily be pleasant, but it will prove advantageous in time.

[Contemporary Protestant]

Really, I thought cognitive dissonance was when a person made a bad decision but changed their thoughts to justify their actions

anyhow, despite my poor vocabulary, how can a personal morality be effective in the face of hypocrisy in everyday individuals

[Aletheia]

Really, I thought cognitive dissonance was when a person made a bad decision but changed their thoughts to justify their actions

anyhow, despite my poor vocabulary, how can a personal morality be effective in the face of hypocrisy in everyday individuals

No worries. We make mistakes and learn from them all the time.

Cognitive dissonance

In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.

Personal morality can be effective in the face of hypocrisy in everyday individuals by affecting others who do not value hypocrisy. Plenty of people want to do the right thing, but not everyone is courageous enough to endanger their livelihood or reputation. However, sometimes when they see someone else braver than them with a similar stance, they feel empowered. This can produce solidarity in the group. Yes, the hypocrit remains, and is unlikely to change, but in time through your behaviour and actions, you attract like-minded people to you. They offer emotional support, and sometimes, will step up to the hyprocrit just as you have - often times by using work-related policy to remove or limit the power of the hypocrit.

So much of life stems from minor changes that have a cumulative effect. If you are patient and observant, you'll notice them.

Men are anxious to improve their circumstances, but are unwilling to improve themselves. They therefore remain bound. The man who does not shrink from self-crucifixion can never fail to accomplish the object upon which his heart is set. This is as true of earthly as of heavenly things. Even the man whose sole object is to acquire wealth must be prepared to make great personal sacrifices before he can accomplish his object; and how much more so he who would realize a strong and well-poised life?....

....Circumstances, however, are so complicated, thought is so deeply rooted, and the conditions of happiness vary so vastly with individuals, that a man's entire soul condition (although it may be known to himself) cannot be judged by another from the external aspect of his life alone.

A man may be honest in certain directions, yet suffer privations. A man may be dishonest in certain directions, yet acquire wealth. But the conclusion usually formed that the one man fails because of his particular honesty, and that the other prospers because of his particular dishonesty, is the result of a superficial judgment, which assumes that the dishonest man is almost totally corrupt, and honest man almost entirely virtuous. In the light of a deeper knowledge and wider experience, such judgment is found to be erroneous. The dishonest man may have some admirable virtues which the other does not possess; and the honest man obnoxious vices which are absent in the other. The honest man reaps the good results of his honest thoughts and acts; he also brings upon himself the sufferings which his vices produce. The dishonest man likewise garners his own suffering and happiness

It is pleasing to human vanity to believe that one suffers because of one's virtue. But not until a man has extirpated every sickly, bitter, and impure thought from his mind, and washed every sinful stain from his soul, can he be in a position to know and declare that his sufferings are the result of his good, and not of his bad qualities. And on the way to that supreme perfection, he will have found working in his mind and life, the Great Law which is absolutely just, and which cannot give good for evil, evil for good. Possessed of such knowledge, he will then know, looking back upon his past ignorance and blindness, that his life is, and always was, justly ordered, and that all his past experiences, good and bad, were the equitable outworking of his evolving, yet unevolved self.

[Contemporary Protestant]

thanks, i will take time o reflect on that

[Aletheia]

thanks, i will take time o reflect on that

Feel fee to read the book. I think it's only 20 pages or so.

[trdsf]

eh, i think people will lie cheat and steal to get what they want and to justify their actions
which goes back to my intial premise that people are not good

Stating that people are inherently 'good' or 'evil' requires some sort of reasonably objective baseline to measure goodness and evilness against.

I might recommend the sections on the evolutionary purpose of altruism from The Selfish Gene as a good place to start there.  He makes a good (but by no means settled) case.

Anyway, 'good' and 'evil' are always determined on a sliding scale, as civilization advances.  I mean, look at biblical passages on slavery, not a single one of which condemns the practice.  I think with very few exceptions, you won't find a modern human who believes slavery should be reinstated.  We've grown socially--become better--since then.

You can have a fine debate on whether humans are good or evil, but there's no question that how we define good and evil changes over time.

I prefer to think that humans are natural, and that any good or evil within a particular human is going to depend on their circumstances.  We're certainly pretty stupid as a species (i.e., when acting as groups rather than as individuals), but that's not the same as being evil.

[MagetheEntertainer]

I had a Christian accost me for reading a comic called Maus in the library (good comic) She said it was filthy jew material and that I should burn it in front of the library, literally. her actual words. She called me a bad person for reading it (I was just coming to terms with my atheism at the time, still didn't quite believe it)

I just went: Look lady, I was just reading a comic...

she sneered at me and called me a heathen. That was a surreal experience

WTF does she not realize that the whole old testament is basically Jewish scripture?  The freaking backbone to her religion is Judaism

[the_antithesis]

i said a moral guiding force, it interacts with people by prompting them to make moral actions, when a person feels like they should do something even when they dont want to, say sit with an annoying kid but lonely kid at lunch
by being friend a friend to the friendless, the right thing was done, i would attribute that decision to God because it was something i wouldnt had done if i hadnt been pushed to do it by a moral guiding force

This is the problem with these sorts of debates. The atheistic explanation for such example tend to be a bit long winded and theists are notoriously impatient. "God did it" is so much simpler and shorter. Why should you have to  learn about how humans are social animals who experience emotions such as empathy and sympathy which allow us to feel bad about another's misfortune as if it were happening to ourselves?  That we had evolved these traits because working together as a group is more beneficial to survival, so those who had these traits tended to survive long enough to pass their social genes onto the next generation while those who did not have these traits did not. Death is the primary force that drives evolution, after all. Although, there are people who lack these traits. Watch the documentary I, Psychopath to see what someone who lacks empathy is like. What would be your explanation for such a person? That god has forsaken him? Why? Because he's an asshole? By your logic and definition of god, the man is an asshole because god has forsaken him. This make god the asshole, then, for neglecting certain individuals for arbitrary reasons.

Morality is really way too complex a subject to go into on an internet forum. And even then, why should you believe me? Theists tend to prefer ignorance so that every blank can then be filled with god.

Even then, I find your assertion abhorrent. The only reason why someone would do something good is because of god? What a terrible worldview to have! What a sorry opinion you hold of your fellow humans and yourself! You have basically said that when people do good, it is only because of god. Guiding us. Like a puppet master pulling the strings. Therefore, when we do bad, that is our true nature taking over.

What a terrible view of humanity!

What a terrible view of god that it would control us so directly like that!

[Contemporary Protestant]

i mentioned either on this thread or maybe another im not sure

that people do wrong when they chose not to do what is right
which eliminates the point about a grand puppet master
and refutes the point about how people who are bad have been abandoned

i also refuse to accept that people are good
working together for survival isnt good, its an act of self preservation