About the idea that conspiracies are all nonsense?

[chill98]

Not Trying to Detract From Pearl Harbor

Shitty title.. I used that because I just went blank with a title..

Anyways.. I got to thinking about the notion that government or people within government or even private citizens would never be willing to kill citizens for profit or other reasons.. Take 911 as an example..
The argument is that there's either no motivation or too much standing in the way,  but consider this.

I'm not pointing fingers or trying to get any conspiracy things going, just trying to get it through people's minds that a billion dollars is a hell of a bigger motivation to murder people than the lousy 20 bucks in your wallet..

Money and Power

This one is a fun one:

Quote - Plumlee puts it more directly.

"You want me to say this on camera? Alright. Those entities were cut outs financed and operated by the Central Intelligence Agency," he said. "Our operations were sanctioned by the federal government, controlled out of the Pentagon. The CIA acted in some cases as our logistical support team."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/10/us-intelligence-assets-reportedly-played-role-in-capture-dea-agent-in-mexico.html

Noreiga (scroll down to trial)

Quote - It ruled that the introduction of evidence about Noriega's role in the CIA would "confuse the jury"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega

Yeah, what Camarena didn't realize was the money he was targeting wasn't just Quintero's pocket change.  And of course it would confuse the jury.  Drug running CIA is counter-intuitive to everything the Just say No campaign was about.  lol.

[Baruch]

I work with the US government.  They are ordinary people, and criminals, just like I am, like all Americans are.  We were founded in treason and baptized in heresy.  The US is not Superman, flying around for truth, justice and the American way.  That was propaganda for late 1930s-1940s boys like my dad's generation.  The idea that the US government is competent ... is false (see Pearl Harbor).  The idea that the US government is benevolent ... makes me laugh into a brain hemorrhage ;-))  Now knowing human nature, and that it is incompetent, ignorant and evil ... doesn't mean that Shrub planned 9/11 ... or even The Dick planned 9/11.  But the idea that they couldn't have ... is naive as hell.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So all things on YouTube are false?  I suppose this applies to the characters one meets on Atheistforum.com?

Your strawman is on fire.

[Hakurei Reimu]

I wish I could say I respected your opinion ... but your bullying is a ... negative.

What bullying? I want you to fucking explain why insurance fraud or anything else conspirationatory was behind the Challenger or Titanic accidents, as any freethinking skeptic demands. If you want to just continue to be evasive, fine with me, but that'll be my win whether we like it or not.

You were projecting ... that I attribute anything to malice (though this is easy to do politically) ... or that I think little green men from Roswell are behind anything.  Is that your constant use of ad hominem?

Attributing the Challenger accident to insurance fraud or that either NASA or Cunard Lines "got away with murder" certainly sounds like malice to me.

It is easy to think that Nixon had malice ... but not to worry, he was simply incompetent ;-)

Nice try, but we had ample proof that Nixon was covering up something.

[Baruch]

I am glad to see ... that you don't consider Watergate a Democrat conspiracy to embarrass President Nixon ... if you did, you would be a die hard Republican ;-)  It was in fact, a conspiracy of the FBI and CIA, because the FBI deputy director was Deep Throat ... and one of the two guys meeting with him, Woodward ... was and still is a CIA operative.  One can only guess why they had it in for him.  What Nixon did is tame, compared to later Presidents ... so I guess those later guys are square with the FBI and the CIA.

[stromboli]

I am glad to see ... that you don't consider Watergate a Democrat conspiracy to embarrass President Nixon ... if you did, you would be a die hard Republican ;-)  It was in fact, a conspiracy of the FBI and CIA, because the FBI deputy director was Deep Throat ... and one of the two guys meeting with him, Woodward ... was and still is a CIA operative.  One can only guess why they had it in for him.  What Nixon did is tame, compared to later Presidents ... so I guess those later guys are square with the FBI and the CIA.

Woodward got out of the Navy as a lieutenant and applied for law school in 1970. He instead took the gig as reporter for the WP. Don't know where you get the CIA operative stuff, but I would certainly like to see some evidence. The Watergate cover up may have been exposed by the FBI- I suppose because they didn't like Nixon- but in fact the Watergate burglars were identified

Bernard Barker
Virgilio Gonzalez
Eugenio Martínez
James W. McCord, Jr.
Frank Sturgis

and there was certainly sufficient evidence to link them to Nixon's henchmen and to Nixon. Saw the movie, read the book. Please provide evidence. Love to see it.

[Baruch]

Mark Felt confessed to being Deep Throat.  There have been subsequent attempts to cover that up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Woodward

The man has many CIA friends, and is considered a WH insider reporter for many years ...
http://www.ctka.net/pr196-woodward.html

He was entangled during the Valerie Plame investigation, but that might have been incompetence, or Scooter Libby was using him as a cats paw.

[Hydra009]

I work with the US government.  They are ordinary people, and criminals, just like I am, like all Americans are.

I agree.

The idea that the US government is benevolent ... makes me laugh into a brain hemorrhage ;-))

Didn't you just say they're ordinary people?  Ordinary people tend to be fairly decent on the whole.

Now knowing human nature, and that it is incompetent, ignorant and evil ... doesn't mean that Shrub planned 9/11 ... or even The Dick planned 9/11.  But the idea that they couldn't have ... is naive as hell.

This seems to be the refrain.  The people at the top are bad people therefore they could be up to something, like blowing up buildings or distributing mind-controlling mint toothpaste.  But once again, you have to substantiate this sort of thing.  You can't just point at an individual or group and pin whatever you want on them just because you don't like them.  Also, the burden of proof is on the Truthers, not everybody else.

[Johan]

This seems to be the refrain.  The people at the top are bad people therefore they could be up to something, like blowing up buildings or distributing mind-controlling mint toothpaste.  But once again, you have to substantiate this sort of thing.  You can't just point at an individual or group and pin whatever you want on them just because you don't like them.  Also, the burden of proof is on the Truthers, not everybody else.

This!

My neighbor could be a pedophile, or a rapist, or an al qaeda sleeper spy or a keyboard player, or all four at once. I have no evidence that he's any of those, but he could be. Therefore I should suspect that he is or at least question it constantly. And if I don't question it constantly, I'm just a sheeple or whatever. That is how these conspiracy types choose to live their lives. What a fucked up way to spend your alarmingly short time in this world.

[The Atheist]

Operation Northwoods made me take conspiracy theories seriously.

[Hydra009]

Operation Northwoods made me take conspiracy theories seriously.

Operation Dropshot and Plan Totality (nuclear/conventional war with the Soviets) were proposed as well.  Those plans didn't materialize, either.

[Baruch]

Operation Northwoods made me take conspiracy theories seriously.

Any government is familiar with evil ... and should be.  Being a government isn't for little old ladies ... you have to kill some people.  Cheney calls these "facts on the ground" and "we don't study history, we make it".

Hyra009 - "Didn't you just say they're ordinary people?  Ordinary people tend to be fairly decent on the whole."  Maybe to you.  Ideologically I oppose human beings in principle, including myself ... ape men ... bah, humbug!  But not because I am a saint ... I am a competing criminal, and I don't like competition ;-)  When Charlton Heston says to his captors, "Get your damn paws off me, you ape" ... did you catch the irony?  This is the Planet of the Apes.

[Baruch]

Operation Dropshot and Plan Totality (nuclear/conventional war with the Soviets) were proposed as well.  Those plans didn't materialize, either.

Governments make plans, but don't always carry them out.  The US had a plan to attack the British Empire and seize Canada, until 1939.  But was it really put on hold?  We can be glad that the worst plans of governments haven't been implemented, just the mostly bad plans (Libya etc).

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If you thrive on fear then good luck to you.

[Baruch]

If you thrive on fear then good luck to you.

Not fear, evil.  Evil pays, fear does not.  I don't have much fear ... the destruction of the human race would be a good/bad thing ... that isn't fear, that is misanthropy ;-)  On the other hand, if you don't fear this world, you aren't awake ... I prefer to just be prudent and cautious ... down in the hood.  Got gang-sign?  R or D?