Thoughts on the Existence of the Universe

[PopeyesPappy]

Well, you simply need to prove it.

Actually Nipshit I don't have to prove it. That's not how it works. You claim it happened. The burden of proof lies with you not me. In this case the proof to support your claim is going to be very hard to come by as archeological evidence for a Biblical Exodus from Egypt doesn't exist. In fact far from supporting your claim the applicable archeological evidence refutes them. Minor details like sites the Bible claimed were settled by the migrating Jews date to different periods. Of course I understand that a good YEC like yourself would never let bothersome facts get in the way of a good story. In this case though the devil so to speak is in the details, and Ol' Beelzebub is all up your ass on this one.

[widdershins]

No one knew Helen Keller was intelligent because they couldn't communicate with her. And frankly, to hear how some people are speaking here, how intelligent could Helen have been since she became a Christian?  I don't believe in random chance. Everything happens for a reason. And if you would only listen to yourself, here you are Mister Pan calling the kettle black.

God doesn't punish anyone for doubting. God punishes when people simply disregard the obvious. The Israelites were punished when they witnessed God at work and then devoted themselves to the worship of knickknacks they fabricated. This is what God hates. God hate liars. People who witness the improbable, find the unexpected, are shown the unimaginable, and then they try to hide that reality to promote their own devised schemes and agenda.

Could you be any more dishonest with this comparison?  You keep trying to distract from the reality that Helen Keller was not profoundly mentally retarded, pretending that her disability is no different from profound mental retardation.

And in what way am I the pot calling the kettle black?  My beliefs are based, not on what someone told me, but on years of study and thought leading to a logical conclusion.  You speak as if you're sure that I simply came to the conclusion I wanted to come to.  Well, that's simply not true.  Do you think I wanted there to be no God when I started looking for him?  Do you think I went into it looking to confirm to myself that there was no God?  Because that would be wrong.  Unlike you, I didn't confirm what I already claimed to "know".  I discovered something which, frankly, I didn't want to be true.  Now, many years later, I'm certainly glad it isn't as I can take an objective look at the contradictory things I used to believe and realize what a horrible, monstrous thing it was I was worshiping and how much less I was because of it.  I believed that there were people who deserved to be lit on fire for all eternity.  I knew those people, personally.  And what a coincidence, they were all people who had upset me.  That was their crime in reality.  In my head, their crime was rejecting God.  That is how I justified to myself the glee I took at the thought of them burning forever because I didn't like them, something no decent human being would revel in.

That last statement shows the true extent of your willful ignorance.  Do you know how many denominations of Christians there are?  Around 38,000, last time I checked.  If it really were "obvious" that your God were real and what he wants, there would only be one.  Do you think the people in the Catholic church give up their free time and their money or sacrifice pleasures in life because they DON'T believe they are doing what God wants?  Do you think the Pentecostals turn themselves into social pariahs with their dress, hair and the way they conduct themselves because, although the truth is "obvious", they want people to dislike them?  Do you think the Jehovah's Witnesses accept rejection after rejection and social stigma because they, too, ignore the "obvious"?

In all my years I have NEVER ONCE seen any "obvious" sign that any god or gods exist, and neither have you.  You see, if something is "obvious" then one can reach that conclusion without any previous knowledge of the conclusion.  If it were "obvious" that your God is real and what it wants then uncontacted tribes in the Amazon would be worshiping it.  If it were "obvious", as you claim, you wouldn't have to be told about your specific God BEFORE you could see the "obvious".  You would be able to see this undefined "obvious" sign and, having never heard of God, Jesus or the Bible, describe the God of the Bible.  But "obviously" that isn't true, now is it?

If there is no chance you can see the "obvious" without someone first giving you the answer then it's not "obvious" at all.

[LittleNipper]

Actually Nips____ I don't have to prove it. That's not how it works. You claim it happened. The burden of proof lies with you not me. In this case the proof to support your claim is going to be very hard to come by as archeological evidence for a Biblical Exodus from Egypt doesn't exist. In fact far from supporting your claim the applicable archeological evidence refutes them. Minor details like sites the Bible claimed were settled by the migrating Jews date to different periods. Of course I understand that a good YEC like yourself would never let bothersome facts get in the way of a good story. In this case though the devil so to speak is in the details, and Ol' Beelzebub is all up your ass on this one.

The problem is that one needs to look for evidence during the correct time period.

[LittleNipper]

I find it amusing how you would quote a verse that many Christians gloss over. Yes, God hardened the pharaoh's so that he would refuse Moses' demands. He then punished all of Egypt for the pharaoh's decision, which he himself was responsible for. God was basically using Moses and the pharaoh as his personal play things so that he could perform magic tricks and kill innocent children, and prove that he is the one true god.

Now, your point was...?

God could very well be hardening your heart. Remember, God KNOWS what we are about. Pharaoh wasn't a nice person, and he certainly had no love for the Hebrews. God likely hardened Hitler's heart. The likelihood that Israel today would exist mostly hinges on what was happening during World War II. And World War II, would not have likely transpired without The Great World War. And that war would likely not have happened had all the aristocrats not been so related to each other and wrapped up in various treaties.

In Bible times pagans threw their mutant children off cliffs or sacrificed an unwanted baby in the fiery lap of Baal. Today, there are thousands of babies sacrificed yearly so that people can relinquish personal responsibility of an unwanted pregnancy ------ while science labs vie for the DNA, etc.  God doesn't throw away the soul of any baby.

[leo]

God could very well be hardening your heart. Remember, God KNOWS what we are about. Pharaoh wasn't a nice person, and he certainly had no love for the Hebrews. God likely hardened Hitler's heart. The likelihood that Israel today would exist mostly hinges on what was happening during World War II. And World War II, would not have likely transpired without The Great World War. And that war would likely not have happened had all the aristocrats not been so related to each other and wrapped up in various treaties.

In Bible times pagans threw their mutant children off cliffs or sacrificed an unwanted baby in the fiery lap of Baal. Today, there are thousands of babies sacrificed yearly so that people can relinquish personal responsibility of an unwanted pregnancy ------ while science labs vie for the DNA, etc.  God doesn't throw away the soul of any baby.

.                                                                                                                                                   Wait I get now ! Are you are a fan of George Carlin?

[Mr.Obvious]

Did you ever imagine that God is using you to help that Christian woman's mentally challenged son? That doesn't mean that you will be rewarded in heaven for your deeds. It does mean that God is able to help those He wishes using anyone or by any means He chooses. That is not to hurt your feels. I think what you did was wonderful. The fact is that the son got what he needed and if you didn't do it, I'm sure God would have found some other means.

The truth I face (as A Christian) is that there is NOTHING I can do apart from God. I simply depend on His guidance and things get accomplished. I don't visualize any reward in heaven, I'm just happy to be going in the Lord's perfect timing.

Nip, I've had a pretty emotion-laden, depressing day. So excuse me if my response either seems like or perhaps even is partly an appeal to emotion. But for the last hours, I've been having quite some troubles distinguisingh rational thought from overwhelming outrage and penetrating sadness within my mind.  In that light, please note that this argument is thus intended to mainly criticize the way your argument is, for the lack of a better term, reasoned. It's not meant to sway your emotions, it's meant to show you serious flaws.

Anyways...

Did you ever imagine that God is using the jihadi's that bombed my capitol of Brussels today to help spread Islam? It means God is able to help those he wishes using anybody or anyone or by any means he chooses. That is not to hurt the feels of those murdered today. The fact is that Is got what it needed and if these jihadi didn't do it, I'm sure God would have found some other means.

The 'truth' they face (as muslim-extremistss) is that there is NOTHING they can do apart from God. They simply depend on His guidance and things get accomplished. They don't visualize any reward in heaven, they are just happy to be going in the Lord's perfect timing.

Did you ever imagine that God used the airport security of Zaventem to help those jihadi slip by armed and unnoticed? That doesn't mean these security guards will be rewarded in heaven for their deeds. It does mean that God is able to help those he wishes using anyone or by any means he chooses. That is not to hurt their feels. The jihadi think what they allowed to happen was wonderful. The fact is that they got what they needed and if the security guards hadn't let them slip through,  I'm sure God would have found some other means.

The 'truth' you face (as A Christian) is that there is NOTHING the security guards could do apart from God. They simply depended on His guidance and things got accomplished. The people in Brussels didn't visualize any reward in heaven, They were just happy to be going in the Lord's perfect timing.

This line of thinking is poison, Nip. Intellectually. Morally. ... Poisonous.

Oh, and what my mentally-retarded client needed wasn't a lawyer to take him under guardianship. What he needs is a functioning brain. The lawyer is the best we can do with our limited potential. Which is an excuse your supposed god doesn't have.
I just wish you could take your fictional deity, with all the properties you bestow him with, and hold him to at least the same standard you would a normal human being. If you could do that, just maybe you'd see why this would make one monstrous, vile creature.

[PopeyesPappy]

The problem is that one needs to look for evidence during the correct time period.

And what time period would that be?

[josephpalazzo]

Well, you simply need to prove it.

So we're asked to prove our claim, while when we ask you to prove your claim, your answers boil down to you know what God wants.

It's either double standard for you, or you are a dishonest person? Which one are you?

[sdelsolray]

Well, you simply need to prove it.

This poster attempts to shift the burden of proof.

He's a funny guy.

[aitm]

This poster attempts to shift the burden of proof.

He's a funny guy.

he is a spoon fed idiot that has never had a thought that wasn't planted by somebody else.

[sdelsolray]

he is a spoon fed idiot that has never had a thought that wasn't planted by somebody else.

Yes, it is highly likely he was/is deeply indoctrinated resulting in an underdevelopment of certain brain functions, such as reason, logic, critical thinking and intellectual honesty, and further resulting in emotional and psychological dysfunctions.

I see him as a gnostic theist, i.e., 'I know the truth and you don't'.  Gnostic theists are not that common but they are certainly entertaining.

[PopeyesPappy]

Gnostic theists are not that common...

You aren't from around here are you?

[LittleNipper]

Nip, I've had a pretty emotion-laden, depressing day. So excuse me if my response either seems like or perhaps even is partly an appeal to emotion. But for the last hours, I've been having quite some troubles distinguisingh rational thought from overwhelming outrage and penetrating sadness within my mind.  In that light, please note that this argument is thus intended to mainly criticize the way your argument is, for the lack of a better term, reasoned. It's not meant to sway your emotions, it's meant to show you serious flaws.

Anyways...

Did you ever imagine that God is using the jihadi's that bombed my capitol of Brussels today to help spread Islam? It means God is able to help those he wishes using anybody or anyone or by any means he chooses. That is not to hurt the feels of those murdered today. The fact is that Is got what it needed and if these jihadi didn't do it, I'm sure God would have found some other means.

The 'truth' they face (as muslim-extremistss) is that there is NOTHING they can do apart from God. They simply depend on His guidance and things get accomplished. They don't visualize any reward in heaven, they are just happy to be going in the Lord's perfect timing.

Did you ever imagine that God used the airport security of Zaventem to help those jihadi slip by armed and unnoticed? That doesn't mean these security guards will be rewarded in heaven for their deeds. It does mean that God is able to help those he wishes using anyone or by any means he chooses. That is not to hurt their feels. The jihadi think what they allowed to happen was wonderful. The fact is that they got what they needed and if the security guards hadn't let them slip through,  I'm sure God would have found some other means.

The 'truth' you face (as A Christian) is that there is NOTHING the security guards could do apart from God. They simply depended on His guidance and things got accomplished. The people in Brussels didn't visualize any reward in heaven, They were just happy to be going in the Lord's perfect timing.

This line of thinking is poison, Nip. Intellectually. Morally. ... Poisonous.

Oh, and what my mentally-retarded client needed wasn't a lawyer to take him under guardianship. What he needs is a functioning brain. The lawyer is the best we can do with our limited potential. Which is an excuse your supposed god doesn't have.
I just wish you could take your fictional deity, with all the properties you bestow him with, and hold him to at least the same standard you would a normal human being. If you could do that, just maybe you'd see why this would make one monstrous, vile creature.

I will give you one solid word of sound Biblical advice paraphrased.   
Psalm 127:1
Except that the Lord is involved in any undertaking, those involved work for nothing. Except the Lord protects the city, police efforts will be an utter failure.

[Mr.Obvious]

Allow me to give you one solid advice, Nip.
It's the same one I've been giving you before, paraphrased.
Sit down and really think through what the qualities you bestow your imaginary god with entail for this world and himself if he were real, and follow that line of thought through with an ounce of intellectual consistency.

[Unbeliever]

Nipper's god is a projection of himself, as he imagines himself.

I suspect everyone's God is merely a reflection of themselves.