Thoughts on the Existence of the Universe

[widdershins]

If that is the case, then the reality is that GOD is LORD of all ---- even you. If there is no God then prayer could have no effect.

That is not true, as I pointed out in my last post in this thread.  Prayer affects people psychologically, which is what has the really effect.  If you pray for someone and they don't know it, then it does have no effect.  But if you tell them you're praying for them and they believe that will help then it sometimes does, something which is extremely well documented as the placebo effect.

[LittleNipper]

That is not true, as I pointed out in my last post in this thread.  Prayer affects people psychologically, which is what has the really effect.  If you pray for someone and they don't know it, then it does have no effect.  But if you tell them you're praying for them and they believe that will help then it sometimes does, something which is extremely well documented as the placebo effect.

Well, I'm praying for You.

[Sargon The Grape]

Well, I'm praying for You.

Imperio!

[Hydra009]

Well, I'm praying for You.

[widdershins]

Well, I'm praying for You.

Great!  Then we can collect some empirical evidence that it has no effect whatsoever.

[josephpalazzo]

Great!  Then we can collect some empirical evidence that it has no effect whatsoever.

Yeah according to the crackpot theory: you don't need hospitals, doctors, nurses, and so on, we just all have to pray and all sick people will get cured. You don't have to have farmers working on farms with tractors, and so on, we just all have to pray and food will grow...

[widdershins]

Yeah according to the crackpot theory: you don't need hospitals, doctors, nurses, and so on, we just all have to pray and all sick people will get cured. You don't have to have farmers working on farms with tractors, and so on, we just all have to pray and food will grow...

Yeah, when it works, it's God's power.  When it doesn't, it's God's will.  Either way it proves them right in their messed up little heads.

[Blackleaf]

Yeah according to the crackpot theory: you don't need hospitals, doctors, nurses, and so on, we just all have to pray and all sick people will get cured. You don't have to have farmers working on farms with tractors, and so on, we just all have to pray and food will grow...

It actually used to be the case that Christians would reject medical help in favor of praying and allowing God's will to happen. Vivien Thomas, who pioneered heart transplants in babies with "blue baby syndrome" dealt with opposition from the church who accused him of playing God. You don't hear many of them complaining now about the incredible advancements we've made in medicine.

Funny how Christians are always the last to accept positive change when it happens; they always try to push back and keep the status quo, and then they just forget that they were ever opposed to it in the first place. Soon, they'll probably forget that they were the ones who opposed homosexual rights, and claim that true Christians always advocated for them, and God pulled through. Just watch. It'll happen. They're slow to accept what the rest of society always knows, but they do eventually accept it, and then they claim to have always accepted it.

[reasonist]

Christians accomplished just that very nicely. The texts and 'divine laws' have been silently watered down over the last centuries. Not long ago (in historical terms) for example the claim that our planet is a sphere would get you roasted at the stake, after your back was broken on the wheel and your limbs pulled out. So what changed? Us non-believers didn't bring that on, but the repeated needles of science burst one theist bubble after another. Today we know what causes lightening and we have a pretty good idea that the earth is not a disk. All the doctrines that were upheld with torture and death for a thousand years were slowly abandoned. Today, not even the most ardent fundamentalist claims that we live on a flat earth. Christianity had to adapt to the reality of scientific discovery. Too bad Islam can't do the same.

[LittleNipper]

Yeah according to the crackpot theory: you don't need hospitals, doctors, nurses, and so on, we just all have to pray and all sick people will get cured. You don't have to have farmers working on farms with tractors, and so on, we just all have to pray and food will grow...

This is certainly not true. Historically, all hospitals, all universities, all colleges, all orphanages, all soup kitchens, all schools, were not founded by atheists.  Christians do realize that GOD is the is the motivator and instigator and the inspiration behind many of our institutions to encourage growth, maturity, and investigation. 

[josephpalazzo]

Most hospitals, on the other hand, have long realized the power of spiritual healing. And there has been research to suggest it is very real.

If that is the case, then the reality is that GOD is LORD of all ---- even you. If there is no God then prayer could have no effect.

Yeah according to the crackpot theory: you don't need hospitals, doctors, nurses, and so on, we just all have to pray and all sick people will get cured. You don't have to have farmers working on farms with tractors, and so on, we just all have to pray and food will grow...

This is certainly not true. Historically, all hospitals, all universities, all colleges, all orphanages, all soup kitchens, all schools, were not founded by atheists.  Christians do realize that GOD is the is the motivator and instigator and the inspiration behind many of our institutions to encourage growth, maturity, and investigation. 

You're not addressing my initial post to your claim of spiritual power to heal. Get with the program. Either your spiritual power is a real thing, in which case why bother with building hospitals, or you build hospitals because spirtual power is a figment of your imagination. You can't have in both ways.

[LittleNipper]

You're not addressing my initial post to your claim of spiritual power to heal. Get with the program. Either your spiritual power is a real thing, in which case why bother with building hospitals, or you build hospitals because spirtual power is a figment of your imagination. You can't have in both ways.

God works in mysterious ways. Sometimes He uses a miracle and sometimes He allows various individuals the opportunity to receive a blessing, and also witness GOD's power working through and around them. I personally know both a doctor and a dentist who believe that GOD helps them perform various procedures to the best outcome of the patients involved. God can and does use any number of circumstances at HIS disposal. Sometime HE is teaching the patient something. Sometimes it's the family/friends involved. Sometimes the practitioner is getting a message from God.

Did Jesus heal without hospitals? I certainly believe so. Jesus performed healings at that time to provide proof of HIS divinity. Jesus isn't trying to prove that presently. He is now perfecting HIS saints. And in a hospital setting doctors are often faced with the realization that without GOD there is no hope.

[Baruch]

In a world where 99% of people are religious ... it is statistically likely that hospitals are established by religious folk ;-)  It is hard to prove cause/effect however.  People may be humanitarians, regardless of religion, and religious humanitarians establish hospitals, but it is because of their humanitarianism ... which they would share with the majority of atheists ... that is the cause of this.  It could even be in some circumstances, that a hospital is established in spite of the prevailing religion.  This was true during the build up of scientific medicine in the early 20th century ... the best hospitals were not Church founded, but secular institutions attached to secular medical schools.  Church hospitals then followed along when it became impossible not to.

G-d does work in mysterious ways ... but the religious think that isn't an impediment for them ;-)

[LittleNipper]

In a world where 99% of people are religious ... it is statistically likely that hospitals are established by religious folk ;-)  It is hard to prove cause/effect however.  People may be humanitarians, regardless of religion, and religious humanitarians establish hospitals, but it is because of their humanitarianism ... which they would share with the majority of atheists ... that is the cause of this.  It could even be in some circumstances, that a hospital is established in spite of the prevailing religion.  This was true during the build up of scientific medicine in the early 20th century ... the best hospitals were not Church founded, but secular institutions attached to secular medical schools.  Church hospitals then followed along when it became impossible not to.

G-d does work in mysterious ways ... but the religious think that isn't an impediment for them ;-)

God is still Lord of all.

[Baruch]

God is still Lord of all.

I happen to agree ... but I don't think this is a good thing, since I don't believe in monarchy.  I also disapprove of G-d's actions and inactions.  Of course my G-d isn't your G-d.  It may be arrogant to disapprove of G-d, but I would rather disapprove of the wretchedness of the human condition, than be saved by a cruel deity at the price of my hypocrisy.