Merged Topic - Historical Reliability of the Gospels

[reasonist]

A papyrus fragment of John 18 has been dated to about 140 CE. This is the oldest manuscript of the New Testament in existence and is currently held at the University of Manchester in England. This manuscript was written in Egypt probably around 120 CE. There is another manuscript in Geneva, which is almost complete, that has been dated to about 150 CE. The point of noting these ancient manuscripts is to emphasize that the Gospel of John wasn't written any earlier than 120 CE. That means it was written almost 100 years after Jesus.
Tom Harpur "The Pagan Christ"

He also writes: " Since the translation of the books of old Egypt - the Book of the Dead, the Pyramid texts, the Amduat and the book of Thoth for example, there is irrefutable proof that not a single doctrine, rite, tenet, or usage in Christianity was in reality a fresh contribution to the world of religion. The entire body of Christian doctrine is simply a revamped and mutilated Egyptianism."

If the good books are the word of a deity, then he was either too stupid or too lazy to come up with something new. Which was it?

Regarding the situation in the Middle East, specifically the Israel/Palestinian conflict, I cannot get over the fact that a group of people are 'chosen' above all other folks on this planet and that a patch of land is holier than the rest of the world. This is the most insane proposition and will eventually lead to an all out (nuclear?) war.

[Mike Cl]

reasonist--I like your reasoning! :))  Maybe you could take some time and introduce yourself to us in the into thread?

[reasonist]

Tried that but I am a technomoron       

[Mike Cl]

Tried that but I am a technomoron     

Click on the 'home' button at the top of the page.  When that comes up, look in 'The Lobby', second section down under 'Introductions'--click on that, then fill us in on who you are.  I look forward to reading about you. 

[Hakurei Reimu]

They will---- once Christ returns along with the raptured CHURCH after the 7 years of Tribulation. The Jews will fully understand that Jesus is the Messiah and the entire world will be under Christ's rule for 1000 years. Christ will fulfill the Davidic promise as the heir to the throne.

Come now, LittleNipper, even you must realize how hollow that rings. You guys have been predicting the end of the world for nearly as long as Jesus has been dead, and not once have you been right. A sane person would have thrown up their hands and admitted that, if the end were coming, they don't know when that would be.

Also, what makes you think that you are the guys who are going to be raptured to heaven, rather than people who honestly don't believe there is a God but try to be good people anyway?

Tell me, have you read Robert G. Ingersoll's Some mistakes of Moses? I guarantee that it'll be an entertaining read, because it's not just about mistakes that Moses supposedly made.

[Sargon The Grape]

The prophetic message in the Bible is that the Jews would be dispersed across the earth. This is true, as they were.

So were the Chinese. But much like the Jews, there never stopped being Chinese in China.

The nation of Israel would be resurrected according to the Bible. This too is a fact, as roughly 2000 years later (with little hope that such an event could possibly occur) it did.

The modern state of Israel does not include the entirety of the old kingdom. Also even if this were a fulfillment of prophecy, wouldn't it actually be proof in favor of Judaism? Seems to me that if it's a Christian prophecy, Israel should be a Christian rather than a Jewish state.

You can attempt to explain it all away anyway you wish; however, the facts and the Jews speak for themselves.

To echo Hakurei's earlier statement: indeed they do.

They will---- once Christ returns along with the raptured CHURCH after the 7 years of Tribulation. The Jews will fully understand that Jesus is the Messiah and the entire world will be under Christ's rule for 1000 years. Christ will fulfill the Davidic promise as the heir to the throne.

I'm pretty sure the Jews have their own timetable for their Messiah's arrival, and it has nothing to do with the Book of Revelations.

[LittleNipper]

So were the Chinese. But much like the Jews, there never stopped being Chinese in China.
The modern state of Israel does not include the entirety of the old kingdom. Also even if this were a fulfillment of prophecy, wouldn't it actually be proof in favor of Judaism? Seems to me that if it's a Christian prophecy, Israel should be a Christian rather than a Jewish state.
To echo Hakurei's earlier statement: indeed they do.
I'm pretty sure the Jews have their own timetable for their Messiah's arrival, and it has nothing to do with the Book of Revelations.

Well, the Old Testament prophecies regarding the fact that the Messiah would be born under the linage of David was covered by both the mother of Jesus and His step father Joseph. There is not anyway of positively tracing that linage back at this time. The mother of Jesus was a virgin as prophesied in the Bible --- how many practice abstinence today?  Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea but was ultimately raised in Nazareth as predicted by the scriptures. Sorry, I love the Jewish people, but unless they are Messianic, they missed the boat and the Bible is more than clear --- "His own (the Jews) would receive Him not."

[josephpalazzo]

Big problem here is that Nazareth didn't exist when Jesus was supposed to be around.

[LittleNipper]

Big problem here is that Nazareth didn't exist when Jesus was supposed to be around.

Baloney.

[Baruch]

Baloney.

Archeology is not your friend, on many points.

Jewish views of messiahs today is ... they are all false.  There is no point in waiting for one to arrive, because a real messiah never does.  Any modern Jew who is messianic is heretical.  Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[josephpalazzo]

And Jesus never existed in the first place. Get your act together.

[Sargon The Grape]

The mother of Jesus was a virgin as prophesied in the Bible

You mean something predicted in the Bible later happened in the Bible? Well color me shocked!

By your logic, the fact that Anakin Skywalker was prophesied to "bring balance to the Force" and then later did so by killing all Jedi and Sith is evidence that Star Wars actually happened.

[Mike Cl]

Baloney.

Very elegant reply.  It really sums up how a christian reasons.  Well, how they don't reason.  They believe.  And whatever they believe just is.  And if you don't believe it, then 'baloney' to you. 

[LittleNipper]

Very elegant reply.  It really sums up how a christian reasons.  Well, how they don't reason.  They believe.  And whatever they believe just is.  And if you don't believe it, then 'baloney' to you.

Right...
Did Bethlehem and Nazareth exist in Jesus’ day?

28 May, 2012 â€"27 Comments


Nazareth house

Not so very long ago, many internet critics of Christianity were pointing out that there was no archaeological evidence of settlements at Bethlehem and Nazareth in the first century. This demonstrates, they said, despite the fact that few scholars agreed with them, that these towns didn’t exist, and that therefore the Bible accounts are not historical.

But three years later the situation has changed.

Nazareth

Until a few years ago, the only archaeological evidence for Nazareth amounted to little more than the remains of a winepress, a few tombs and a few artifacts. However in December 2009, the Israel Antiquities Authority issued a press release announcing that a house in Nazareth (see photo above) had now been excavated and had been found to contain artifacts from the “early Roman period” (first and second centuries). The archaeologists also found a pit hewn out of stone with a concealed entrance, which they believe was constructed as protection during the Jewish revolt of 67 CE.

This was seen by the Authority and others (The Guardian and the Huffington Post) as conclusive evidence that Nazareth did indeed exist in the first century. Based on the number of tombs found previously, they conclude that it was a small hamlet of about 50 houses.

Those who believe Nazareth didn’t exist have adjusted to this evidence, and tend to denigrate it as “sensationalist” (Nazareth: the town that theology built), or argue that the evidence doesn’t relate to the exact period of Jesus’ life, but several decades later (nazarethmyth.info). Nevertheless, scholars, who generally didn’t doubt that Nazareth existed as a small village, have been reinforced in their conclusions.

Bethlehem

There was even less archaeological evidence for Bethlehem â€" virtually nothing before the fourth century â€" giving sceptics even more basis for their arguments that this showed the unreliability of the New Testament. But that has changed slightly in the past few weeks.

Bethlehem bulla

Recently the Israel Antiquities Authority announced that archaeologists working in the city of David area of Jerusalem had discovered a small (1.5 cm) ‘bulla’ (see photo), a piece of clay used to make an impression in wax, sealing a document so it couldn’t be altered. This small bulla apparently accompanied a delivery of goods to the king of Judah about 7 centuries BCE, and identifies that the shipment was despatched from Bethlehem.

This shows the existence of town named Bethlehem seven centuries before Jesus, the first independent corroboration of the Bible’s references to the town. This doesn’t prove it existed in Jesus’ day also, but if it was there 700 years before and 400 years afterwards, it suggests that it probably did indeed exist at the time of Jesus (see report in the Los Angeles Times).

Cautionary tales

Scholars say that only a very small fraction of the artifacts of the time have ever been discovered, and no-one knows what discoveries are yet to come. This makes perilous any argument that a place doesn’t exist based on the lack of finds, and most scholars are cautious about making such claims.

[Baruch]

A recent satellite archeology survey of Egypt, maintains that only 1% of Egypt has been excavated so far ... that centuries of additional on ground research will remain to be done.