Merged Topic - Historical Reliability of the Gospels

[Baruch]

So, New Testament aside, How old is the oldest copy of the Old Testament? Much of what we hold as historical fact is found in manuscripts that were written 100's of years after the fact. Many are copies of copies. And yet who denies that the Trojan War never happened?

The Homer's Trojan war never happened, neither did Joshua "fit" the battle of Jericho.  The earliest book surviving of the Jewish scriptures, is the Isaiah scroll from the Dead Sea ... circa 125 BCE.  The oldest partially complete Jewish OT is from around 950 CE.

This is all literature ... to be enjoyed as such.  History is a kind of literature, not factual, just fact-ish.  Like the current fad for "truthiness".  The original history was Greek propaganda written during the Greco-Persian wars.  The winners do write the histories.  That is how Caesar wrote his histories too, as current political propaganda.  Didn't work though, they still assassinated him.

[Hakurei Reimu]

The Gospels were clearly written by men who had no thought of making themselves look heroic. like gullible idiots.

FTFY

[LittleNipper]

The Homer's Trojan war never happened, neither did Joshua "fit" the battle of Jericho.  The earliest book surviving of the Jewish scriptures, is the Isaiah scroll from the Dead Sea ... circa 125 BCE.  The oldest partially complete Jewish OT is from around 950 CE.

This is all literature ... to be enjoyed as such.  History is a kind of literature, not factual, just fact-ish.  Like the current fad for "truthiness".  The original history was Greek propaganda written during the Greco-Persian wars.  The winners do write the histories.  That is how Caesar wrote his histories too, as current political propaganda.  Didn't work though, they still assassinated him.

So, one must reason that the Jews need to get out of Israel, because they rest on the Old Testament  (mere fable / propaganda) for any right to that Palestinian land . You simply cannot have it both ways. I feel strongly that the present nation of Israel is the fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy --- nothing more or less. And if the Bible is not the truth of God, then the stories concerning Israel are but a flight of fancy without any eternal significance because it is all a lie.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

So, one must reason that the Jews need to get out of Israel

They never really left. A lot of Western Jews did immigrate there after the mandate, which I would argue never should have happened. However...

because they rest on the Old Testament  (mere fable / propaganda) for any right to that Palestinian land .

...what's done is done. Descendants of those immigrants have been born and died there. You cannot reasonably ask people to leave the only home they know.

You simply cannot have it both ways.

Well as I pointed out, you actually can. It requires a crime against humanity for it to happen, but it can be both ways.

I feel strongly that the present nation of Israel is the fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy --- nothing more or less.

Feelings are not evidence.

And if the Bible is not the truth of God, then the stories concerning Israel are but a flight of fancy without any eternal significance because it is all a lie.

This is the first accurate statement you've made in this post.

[LittleNipper]

They never really left. A lot of Western Jews did immigrate there after the mandate, which I would argue never should have happened. However...
...what's done is done. Descendants of those immigrants have been born and died there. You cannot reasonably ask people to leave the only home they know.
Well as I pointed out, you actually can. It requires a crime against humanity for it to happen, but it can be both ways.
Feelings are not evidence.
This is the first accurate statement you've made in this post.

The prophetic message in the Bible is that the Jews would be dispersed across the earth. This is true, as they were.
The nation of Israel would be resurrected according to the Bible. This too is a fact, as roughly 2000 years later (with little hope that such an event could possibly occur) it did.

You can attempt to explain it all away anyway you wish; however, the facts and the Jews speak for themselves. 

[aitm]

.
This is the first accurate statement you've made in this post.

It is the first accurate post he has made since he came here.

[aitm]

as roughly 2000 years later 

..because all powerful gods usually take 2000 years to return the phone call….LOLOLOLOL

[Hakurei Reimu]

The prophetic message in the Bible is that the Jews would be dispersed across the earth. This is true, as they were.

Please, Jews weren't the first or even the last people to be dispersed 'across the earth.' A recent example of a people dispersed 'across the earth' are Africans â€" and they were much more dispersed across the earth than the Jews were in ancient times.

The nation of Israel would be resurrected according to the Bible. This too is a fact, as roughly 2000 years later (with little hope that such an event could possibly occur) it did.

The modern Israel is decidedly not the same entity as the "ancient Israel." Not only is modern Israel missing parts up north that belong now to Lebanon, it has claimed more as Israel than the ancient kingdom. Hell, the kingdom of Israel hardly included all of the Jews at the time. The name "Jew" comes from Judea, which was a separate kingdom from that of the kingdom of Israel.

You can attempt to explain it all away anyway you wish; however, the facts and the Jews speak for themselves. 

Yes, they do.

[LittleNipper]

..because all powerful gods usually take 2000 years to return the phone call….LOLOLOLOL

How many nations can you name that came back after total destruction some 2000 years afterwards. God did what most logical minds would say is an impossibility. And you are simply unwilling to see just how miraculous this all is. Were is Crete? Were are the Hittites? Were are the Etruscans? HELLO!!!!!

The Jews have the same text that Jesus read from in the temple at Jerusalem at age 12. You are simply tossing data away because it points to GOD's promise. And a GOD that doesn't exist cannot fulfill promises He made. This alone undermines your atheistic logic.

[aitm]

How many nations can you name that came back after total destruction some 2000 years

The babble promises that the jews will rule over the gentile nations( damn..so close) So you are offering that now that now because the gentile nations gave the Jews "their" land back since old god could not, that somehow, now, 3000 years later that this fulfills the babble? LOLOLOLOL…..yeah peeps be loving you in a card game

[LittleNipper]

The babble promises that the jews will rule over the gentile nations( damn..so close) So you are offering that now that now because the gentile nations gave the Jews "their" land back since old god could not, that somehow, now, 3000 years later that this fulfills the babble? LOLOLOLOL…..yeah peeps be loving you in a card game

They will---- once Christ returns along with the raptured CHURCH after the 7 years of Tribulation. The Jews will fully understand that Jesus is the Messiah and the entire world will be under Christ's rule for 1000 years. Christ will fulfill the Davidic promise as the heir to the throne.

[Baruch]

So, one must reason that the Jews need to get out of Israel, because they rest on the Old Testament  (mere fable / propaganda) for any right to that Palestinian land . You simply cannot have it both ways. I feel strongly that the present nation of Israel is the fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy --- nothing more or less. And if the Bible is not the truth of God, then the stories concerning Israel are but a flight of fancy without any eternal significance because it is all a lie.

Exactly correct.  Most Jews today aren't religious.  Most have only tenuous descent from ancient Jews.  The Palestinians there today are Muslim Jews mostly.  Very few Arabs (other than Bedouin who have been there forever) actually stayed, they passed thru to better places.  Modern Hebrew is not Biblical Hebrew, it is a new language, like Esperanto.  Sounds good, but it matches Biblical Hebrew no better than Spanish matches Latin.  So there are Jewish people already there, back 100+ years ago, but not European half-breed Jews who are atheist/communist, working for the Rothschild banking family.  Those are the kind of Jews who made the push into Palestine before WW I.  I understand your feeling of prophecy however.  It is just that the prophecy can't be fulfilled by "these" Jews.  There are Hasidic Jews in Jerusalem however, who reject modern Israel and ally with Hamas.  That is prophetic ... in the same way that there were Jews like that in Jerusalem 900 years ago, when the first Crusaders came and killed everyone; Muslim, Jew and non-Catholic Christian that they found there.  Modern atheist Israel has been part of the same Crusader movement (as reinvented by Anglo-American Israelitism 100 years ago) ... using the Jewish immigrants as patsies and cannon fodder against the ME.

No, as a Jew, I can admit that ancient Jewish literature, is special to many people, not all of them Jews.  It is flattering.  But one has to be very careful with the "word of G-d" stuff ... given that I consider Muhammad to be much like the ancient Jewish prophets, yet he isn't Jewish.  Muhammad at least is more or less historical, whether you like his words or not.  I like Jesus' words better ... particularly as oracularly proclaimed by Paul .. a Jew ;-)  There wasn't and isn't just one Judaism.  But if the Pope wants to cross-dress in a yarmulka ... I guess we can let him ;-)

The Etruscans never left their homeland, it is called Tuscany today ... in Italy.  There were multiple dialects of Latin in ancient times (some with Etruscan loan words perhaps), and multiple dialects of modern Italian, until the Boot was reunified in the mid 19th century.

The Bible isn't a lie, it is a creative literature of immense influence.  How Jewish is that? ;-)  But originally, the Torah along with Deuteronomy, was a political propaganda by King Josiah (though based on earlier materials, as all literature is).

[reasonist]

I believe it is pretty well established that much of the New Testament was copied from older works that all the writers would have had access to.  In fact, if memory serves, a couple of the books in the NT have exactly the same stories, word for word or close to it.  If much of it was copied from other works then all you can really do is date the older works by your methods.

And if you're trying to establish a timeline for the writings of the books of the NT for the basis of future discussions and you have to use words like "suggests" and "possibly" then you really haven't "established" anything.

Aside from that, I am not a Biblical scholar, and you are not likely to be either.  If you want to establish the approximate dates of the writing of the books of the New Testament, rather than argue a case you are not qualified to argue and I am not qualified to check, isn't it easier, better and by far more accurate to go with the dates which are generally accepted among the people who are qualified to come to such conclusions?  The answer is yes.  Yes it is.  So, rather than analyze your argument, do a bunch of research and, after many hours of checking, give you a still-unqualified opinion on your conclusions, I'm just going to refer you to the dates given by qualified historians, who are quite at odds with your conclusions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible#Table_IV:_New_Testament

So, if you would like to lay the foundation for future discussions by establishing the dating of the four gospels, the generally accepted dating, thus the dating valid for discussion, is given in the link above.  So, what discussion would you like to have?

I agree that the NT is a collection of copies from earlier mythologies, especially the Jewish 'Old Testament'. But many more parallels can be found in Egyptian and Sumerian mythologies dating as far back as 3,000 BC. From virgin births, crucifixion and resurrection to walking on water, the flood and ark and many more, the NT is basically a rehashing of primitive myths. Today it would be called a blatant copyright infringement.
What about the Apocryphic gospels? Why were they excluded from the NT? The secret book of Mary Magdalen, the gospel of truth, acts of Thomas, all omitted from the good book, lingering in the secret Vatican library. Humans like you and I decided what is the word of God and what isn't.

[stromboli]

How many nations can you name that came back after total destruction some 2000 years afterwards. God did what most logical minds would say is an impossibility. And you are simply unwilling to see just how miraculous this all is. Were is Crete? Were are the Hittites? Were are the Etruscans? HELLO!!!!!

The Jews have the same text that Jesus read from in the temple at Jerusalem at age 12. You are simply tossing data away because it points to GOD's promise. And a GOD that doesn't exist cannot fulfill promises He made. This alone undermines your atheistic logic.

The nation was not destroyed. The diaspora is a myth.
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?14504-Israel-s-founding-is-a-myth-the-diaspora-didn-t-happen-Palestinians-are-the-descendants-of-Judah#.Vte5_fkrLcs

Exodus is also a myth.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/staks-rosch/the-biblical-exodus-story-is-fiction_b_1408123.html

The diaspora is a Jewish myth as is Exodus. Judaism was not destroyed. The culture existed there from the time of Christ to modern day. The "Exodus" of modern times were Jewish refugees from Europe seeking a new homeland in the Middle East. There were already Jews there to meet them.

Oh and by the way, the Rapture is also a myth.

http://www.ucg.org/world-news-and-prophecy/the-rapture-a-popular-but-false-doctrine

It didn't exist before 1830 and it is not biblical.

[josephpalazzo]

It simply means that if I were making up a story, I certainly wouldn't set myself up as a liar or as some frightened child. Clearly, those that penned the Gospels were not thinking of themselves and gained nothing.

Speculation on your part. To claim that you know the psychological make-up of people who lived 2,000 years ago is quite a stretch, don't you think?