Atheist but culturally religious?

[jonb]

Ethics and morals are both the property of the individual and are expressed as a unique perspective. Granted, we often find bliss in our ignorance and comfort in the answers provided by the masses, and then we fight in their defense. Everyone, including atheists, hopes for victory, but that idea is one of the hurdles we have to overcome. Victory isn't ours unless it's everyone's.

Victory is a false god and not worth the bother.

I keep on telling Sisyphus you don't have to push that ball, just sit back and enjoy.

[WanderingWonderer]

Victory is a false god and not worth the bother.

I keep on telling Sisyphus you don't have to push that ball, just sit back and enjoy.

Victories are validated all the time, but they can be partial delusions as well. A common problem is accepting a victory of realization as ultimate realization rather than a mere step in the right direction. The character called Christ was victorious in planting an idea that was far more peaceful than the doctrines of his ancestors. The ancient Mayan savior eliminated human sacrifice. Charles Darwin was victorious in publicising a theory that improves our understanding of life. Nikola Tesla successfully enhanced our technological capabilities. All of these are valid victories, and they all stem from a pursuit of a better understanding.

[jonb]

They only won because they lacked the foresight to pick on big enough enemies.

[Mike Cl]

Victory is a false god and not worth the bother.

Doesn't that entirely depend upon what one would call a 'victory'?

[Baruch]

Victories are validated all the time, but they can be partial delusions as well. A common problem is accepting a victory of realization as ultimate realization rather than a mere step in the right direction. The character called Christ was victorious in planting an idea that was far more peaceful than the doctrines of his ancestors. The ancient Mayan savior eliminated human sacrifice. Charles Darwin was victorious in publicising a theory that improves our understanding of life. Nikola Tesla successfully enhanced our technological capabilities. All of these are valid victories, and they all stem from a pursuit of a better understanding.

I think you are thinking of Nezhualcoyotle ... who was the ruler of Teshcoco, on the west side of the valley of the Meshika ... or Mexico.  This was related to, but not the same as the Maya (of Chichen Itza) who themselves were halfbreeds not the same as the Classic Maya.

[WanderingWonderer]

I think you are thinking of Nezhualcoyotle ... who was the ruler of Teshcoco, on the west side of the valley of the Meshika ... or Mexico.  This was related to, but not the same as the Maya (of Chichen Itza) who themselves were halfbreeds not the same as the Classic Maya.

Perhaps, but the point stands?

[Baruch]

Perhaps, but the point stands?

Yes, of course ... I gave you another "like".

[jonb]

Doesn't that entirely depend upon what one would call a 'victory'?

When the Spartans won the Peloponnesian war, they had no political structure that was up to the task of administering an Empire and it marked the ending of their eight hundred year old culture.

Victory is only how we choose to categorise an event, not the event itself.

What is the point of pursuing labels? For me victory is a false god, it has no meaning.

[Baruch]

At least in war, there are no winners.  This is a good reason to dislike the American penchant of calling every government policy a "War on X".  Americans are an arrogant folk, they don't realize why we lose every "War on X".  Modest people would advertise "An afternoon chat about X, over a pot of tea".

[Mike Cl]

When the Spartans won the Peloponnesian war, they had no political structure that was up to the task of administering an Empire and it marked the ending of their eight hundred year old culture.

Victory is only how we choose to categorise an event, not the event itself.

What is the point of pursuing labels? For me victory is a false god, it has no meaning.

For me it is not that simple.  I live victories.  Or at least some of them.  But I'm thinking of victory in personal terms.  I won my simulated baseball league--that is a victory.  I dropped 5 pounds last week--that is a victory.  My wife completed a project she was working on for a month.  That is a victory.  And so on.

But I gather you are talking about large scale victories on a national level?  I think of victories in a different manner.  Probably more like you do.

[Draconic Aiur]

In truth I get disappointed with many atheists.

OK so many people find gawd is a silly idea, but then seem content not to think through what rejecting that doctrine means.

They seem content once gawd is rejected to not question the morality that came with that notion, so essentially live lives driven by the same ethical and moral doctrines as the religious.

When reading many things written by atheists I am reminded of the end of 'Animal Farm'
― George Orwell

Are there others like me who feel it is useless incessantly quoting the bable to prove how superior a person is, but maybe to start thinking what it means to be atheist and what sort of culture this idea could produce, or am I on my own?

um what are you talking about? George Orwell is using symbolism to describe the greed and corruption of man

[Baruch]

From the first page ... by Jonb

"Actually what I am calling for is self examination not just borrowing others dis-proven ideas."  Let me put it more negatively ... atheists are people, and people are mostly ideologues.  In analogy to the atheist saying "I believe in one more god than a monotheist disbelieves vs polytheism" ... an atheist believes in one less ideology than a theist (treating polytheism as a single thing) ... but that is only one less than some large number N.  Re-examination challenges all ideologies.  The Athenian atheists were just as hot to execute Socrates as were the Athenian theists.  That is why the prosecution was wise to make two separate charges against him, they covered all their bases.

It takes another mind, to articulate my own thoughts in some cases.  It also may take awhile for it to sink thru ;-)  Belated thanks to Jonb.

[jonb]

Mike
A diet of victory
To just diet faces us with a path of constant self denial, an irksome thing of constant negativity where we have to accept we will have to have less enjoyment than all the others around us. The path is hard and to hold to that self denial a person finds they need constant reminders why they are on it.
So they weigh themselves and record all the little victories, little reminders that they are getting to the goal. As time goes on they become reliant on these little victories to hold them to the chosen path. But paths are not easy and people fall off them. Its my cousin Murial's wedding it would be rude to leave what is offered, just this one night I will make an exception for a special occasion. So without restraint and being extra hungry because of the time of denial more is eaten than normal. I did it once without harm so this is the end of the month. Soon the person is holding to a strict diet in the week and binging at the weekend, and the whole of the western world gets fatter.

I don't know this particular man and have not looked up the back story but I would say; You can be almost sure this man has been on very many very strict diets with all their little victories.

Baruch a clever man meets an old mad veteran in the mall who is befuddled by the effects of war and as this old man is stupid he has to ask questions. The clever man knowing himself presumes others to be the same as himself (it is the only model he has to work with after all). The clever man gives a great answer to one of the questions, and then thanks the stupid man.

[Mike Cl]

Mike
A diet of victory
To just diet faces us with a path of constant self denial, an irksome thing of constant negativity where we have to accept we will have to have less enjoyment than all the others around us. The path is hard and to hold to that self denial a person finds they need constant reminders why they are on it.
So they weigh themselves and record all the little victories, little reminders that they are getting to the goal. As time goes on they become reliant on these little victories to hold them to the chosen path. But paths are not easy and people fall off them. Its my cousin Murial's wedding it would be rude to leave what is offered, just this one night I will make an exception for a special occasion. So without restraint and being extra hungry because of the time of denial more is eaten than normal. I did it once without harm so this is the end of the month. Soon the person is holding to a strict diet in the week and binging at the weekend, and the whole of the western world gets fatter.

I don't know this particular man and have not looked up the back story but I would say; You can be almost sure this man has been on very many very strict diets with all their little victories.

Baruch a clever man meets an old mad veteran in the mall who is befuddled by the effects of war and as this old man is stupid he has to ask questions. The clever man knowing himself presumes others to be the same as himself (it is the only model he has to work with after all). The clever man gives a great answer to one of the questions, and then thanks the stupid man.

Not quite sure what to make of all of the above.  The fat guy above proves nothing.  Are you saying all fat people are the result of diets?  What of the man who weighted 400 lbs, and now weighs in at 150 and maintains that the rest of his life?  No victory?  I suspect were playing a semantics game.  There are phases or things in life we call victories, which are really made up so we can pat ourselves on the back and then get whatever reward we want.  (And 'reward' needs to be fully defined as well)  One should not use the idea of a victory to fool ourselves into believing a falsehood or a negative outcome.  Maybe instead of victory we should use positive outcome or negative outcome.  Maybe when we lose that pound, we regard it as a positive outcome, and a building block, rather than a victory, for 'victory' may lead some to think that it is more final than it really is.  A building block is just one more item on that road of building something.  And the going off the diet as taking away a building block or two.  Is that why you don't like the word 'victory' for it is commonly thought of as being something final and complete, while in reality it is something that is not final, nor complete?

[jonb]

To achieve something I think the difficulties have to be faced up to, it also often seems to me that by trying to circumvent those difficulties the goal is missed. But don't make the mistake that this Elmer Gantry can always live up to those words.