What Does It Even Mean to Exist Forever?

[mikecool70]

Some theists think that they will exist forever in Heaven while others burn (exist) forever in Hell.  What does that even mean?  My 42 year old physical self does not look much like my 10 year old self.  And I certainly don't have many of the same interests as I did when I was 3 years old.  Can it even be said that those previous versions of me still exist?  I think an argument could even be made that since my molecules and thoughts are constantly changing, that even the version of myself that existed 5 seconds ago doesn't exist anymore and will never exist again.  How is it possible for a person who doesn't exist to experience Heaven or Hell?

Of course, theists will say that souls are immortal and never change.  But it they never change, then how can they ever experience pain or pleasure in the future?  If I have a soul, whatever that is, I'm fairly confident that it isn't currently experiencing pain or pleasure.  Something would have to change for my soul to suddenly feel eternal pain or pleasure.  Such a change would mean that the previous version of that soul no longer exists and is no longer "my" soul.  Why in the hell should I worry about a soul that I don't even self-identify with?  Sure, I may feel sorry for a soul that happens to be burning in Hell for all eternity but I'm certainly not going to stop living my life because of it.

I do understand that "previous versions" of myself determine everything about the "current version" of myself and that I have memories of the previous versions that no one else has.  But that doesn't mean that those previous versions still exist.

Any thoughts on this so that I can clarify my views on this subject are most welcome.

[GurrenLagann]

Some theists think that they will exist forever in Heaven while others burn (exist) forever in Hell.  What does that even mean?  My 42 year old physical self does not look much like my 10 year old self.  And I certainly don't have many of the same interests as I did when I was 3 years old.  Can it even be said that those previous versions of me still exist?  I think an argument could even be made that since my molecules and thoughts are constantly changing, that even the version of myself that existed 5 seconds ago doesn't exist anymore and will never exist again.  How is it possible for a person who doesn't exist to experience Heaven or Hell?

Your getting into annoyingly complex philosophical questions of what identity is, so I'm no help there. Though, I'd like to point out that even though the molecules that make you up now are mostly different, the brain cells that do the information storage and such are essentially still there.

Considering I don't take those concepts (heaven/hell) seriously, I'll skip. :P

Of course, theists will say that souls are immortal and never change.  But it they never change, then how can they ever experience pain or pleasure in the future?  If I have a soul, whatever that is, I'm fairly confident that it isn't currently experiencing pain or pleasure.  Something would have to change for my soul to suddenly feel eternal pain or pleasure.  Such a change would mean that the previous version of that soul no longer exists and is no longer "my" soul.  Why in the hell should I worry about a soul that I don't even self-identify with?  Sure, I may feel sorry for a soul that happens to be burning in Hell for all eternity but I'm certainly not going to stop living my life because of it.

I would assume a slightly more savvy theist would argue that the soul contains the totality of everything you ever were, so there's no question of identity loss, so much as there is of "who the fuck am right now I then?!"

I do understand that "previous versions" of myself determine everything about the "current version" of myself and that I have memories of the previous versions that no one else has.  But that doesn't mean that those previous versions still exist.

Of course not, and there are some good arguments against that (Daniel Dennett gave a good thought experiment against it I believe, but I can't remember it). Try Googling something like "Daniel Dennett identity problem thought experiment".

[Jason78]

For an idea of what it would be like to live forever, look up Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged.

[Johan]

I always thought the believers see the eternity in heaven thing as kind of a selling point. But I kind of think eternal existence is the last thing any rational thinking person would ever want.

Matlock episodes are 22 minutes long and I'm bored out of my skull 4 minutes in. Even if heaven is the greatest thing that ever existed, I have to think by the time you're 10 or 15 billion years in, you'll kind of run out of new shit to do. And then its just billions and billions of years of absolute boredom. No thanks. I'll take my 50-100 years of pleasure and pain and toil and then I'll happily get out of the business. Good luck with the eternity at the country club thing there champ. I hope you still like the taste of the kool aide 100 billion years from now.

[mikecool70]

I always thought the believers see the eternity in heaven thing as kind of a selling point. But I kind of think eternal existence is the last thing any rational thinking person would ever want.

Matlock episodes are 22 minutes long and I'm bored out of my skull 4 minutes in. Even if heaven is the greatest thing that ever existed, I have to think by the time you're 10 or 15 billion years in, you'll kind of run out of new shit to do. And then its just billions and billions of years of absolute boredom. No thanks. I'll take my 50-100 years of pleasure and pain and toil and then I'll happily get out of the business. Good luck with the eternity at the country club thing there champ. I hope you still like the taste of the kool aide 100 billion years from now.

Well, I suppose God could make it so that they never got bored.  But imagine how much a person could learn in a billion years.  Seems to me that after a billion years of learning the person would have undergone so much change that it's no longer the same person.  Even in my 42 years I'm not the same person as I was when I was 1.  Seems to me that the only way a spiritual person could exist forever is to never change, not even a little bit.  And that does indeed seem boring to me; although, admittedly, an all-powerful God could cause the person to be eternally happy.  But Christians clearly think that they will be able to do things in Heaven; not aware of any of them saying they will never change once in Heaven, just that souls are immortal.  Seems contradictory to me.

[Plu]

Well, I suppose God could make it so that they never got bored.

But then they would no longer be themselves, would they? :P It goes into the whole identity problem again. The problem with humans is that they'll quickly get used to their status and desire something new and/or better.

[Davka]

My 42 year old physical self does not look much like my 10 year old self.  And I certainly don't have many of the same interests as I did when I was 3 years old.  Can it even be said that those previous versions of me still exist?  I think an argument could even be made that since my molecules and thoughts are constantly changing, that even the version of myself that existed 5 seconds ago doesn't exist anymore and will never exist again.

What you're dealing with here are the questions of what it means to be human; what is consciousness; what is the self. These questions really have nothing to do with the theological or philosophical implications of eternal life, since all one need do is say "whatever life is, it will continue forever."

I myself have come to the conclusion that consciousness/being/self/whatever is not a thing at all. It is a process. I suppose theists would say that this process will continue forever, although I cannot imagine how this could possibly be, since the process appears to be an electrochemical process which takes place in a living human brain. Once the brain is dead, the process will cease.

However, if we wanted to imagine for the sake of argument that the process will magically continue forever in some disembodied state or alternate universe or whatever, I don't see this as a problem. Just because the process has changed significantly since I was 10, that doesn't mean it's not the same process. It's merely a later phase of the same process. That earlier phase is over now, and cannot be duplicated, but the process itself still continues.

Those who claim that God, Souls, Angels, or any other hypothetical beings are both alive and unchanging at the same time are short-sighted morons. Life is a process. Life cannot exist without change. Action cannot exist without change. Ergo, you may safely ignore those people and go on being what you are, until you stop.

[Colanth]

I always thought the believers see the eternity in heaven thing as kind of a selling point. But I kind of think eternal existence is the last thing any rational thinking person would ever want.

Which is precisely why believers would want eternal existence.

[Alias]

A wave that see its self as a separated wave is looking for the ocean.
It is missing its true identity, water.
Jesus called it Christ and Siddharta called it Buddha.
That what does not come and go, that what we already are.
In the context of religion is God everything but being awake is not in a context.
That is why Jesus said in the end of the story, my god my god why have you forsaken me, he could not follow concepts.

The point is that you must wake up to understand your eternal being, you can not understand it with your mind.
As soon as you touch your mind do you see your self as a separated wave in the ocean.

[Plu]

Oeh, poetic bull. My favorite.

If you have something of value to share, share it in clear, precise and well understood terms.

If you cannot, you have nothing of value to share.

Also, welcome :)

[Mister Agenda]

Endlessness sounds like a nightmare. A trillion, trillion, trillion years after all matter in the universe has dissipated into a cloud of photons; and it's not even a moment compared to the deep time coming your way. If there were a God, maybe we should expect it to be kind of random...expecting an eternal being to be sane might be a little unreasonable.

A life that never ends is never complete, a beginning with no middle or end. It sounds ghastly.

[Alias]

Oeh, poetic bull. My favorite.

If you have something of value to share, share it in clear, precise and well understood terms.

If you cannot, you have nothing of value to share.

Also, welcome :)

It is clear, precise and well understood.

[Plu]

Haha. Cute. It doesn't even use proper grammar or punctuation, let alone precise language. It's one big ball of metaphores.

[Solitary]

Which is precisely why believers would want eternal existence.

 :rollin:  Exactly! One lifetime is enough for me. Has anyone known of a soul without a conscious brain? If a person is utterly destroyed while unconscious, how do they then become conscious without a brain? It's true that what makes up our bodies and the brain are never destroyed when we are, it sure doesn't mean our consciousness, memories, or personality still exists no matter how much we wish it is so, or not, when we are scattered atoms or sub atomic particles of energy.  :roll:  Solitary

[Alias]

Haha. Cute. It doesn't even use proper grammar or punctuation, let alone precise language. It's one big ball of metaphores.

English is not my main language.
Listen to Radiohead //http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_qMagfZtv8
You do it to yourself, you do
And that's what really hurts
Is that you do it to yourself
Just you, you and no one else.