My Personal Opinion on the Hijab, Burqa, and Niqab

[Munch]

Yeah, in fact they do look the other way. While things like Isis is an organised group of terrorists, and the moderate Muslims look the other way to this, the same can be said about Christians, who look the other way when church leaders sexually abuse children, or people brutally abuse their partners or children in the name of God, or those who now wish to not just take away rights to gay people to adopt or marry, some of them even quote the bible about stoning gays, not standing against such psychopaths but instead carrying on attending their churches.

[dtq123]

I simply do not care about what you believe in, so long as you are a good person. That should not be a hard concept to grasp. Everyone deserves the opportunity to pray to whatever god they would like, to practice as they like, and to dress how they would like. No government has the right to take that away.

I spit on your words. Then I spit on my own.
So long as they see us as a rival, it's either us or them.
Don't bring up Coexist, it's a farce made up to bring cease-fire into out world.
By the way, there are no good people. There are only people who aren't just assholes.
Perhaps I am one of those assholes? Who cares?

[pr126]

So, how many gays were hung or thrown off buildings and stoned to death by those nasty Christians?
How many beheadings, crucifictions have they done?
how  many non Christians have they slaughtered burned alive recently just because they were not Christians.
How many mosques and synagogues burned down with worshIpers still inside?
how many ancient relics, art  have they mindlessly destroyed, how many towns have they turned to rubble?


I guess if CNN, ABC does not report it, it doesn't happen.
BTW, forgot to mention the crusades, the inquisitions and witch burning. Tsk, tsk.

I think better work on those moral equivalences.

[Shiranu]

Yeah, in fact they do look the other way.

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/muslim-leaders-worldwide-condemn-isis/5397364

The most explicit condemnation came from Iyad Ameen Madani, the Secretary General for the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, the group representing 57 countries, and 1.4 billion Muslims.

[Aroura33]

Here is the problem Shiranu.  They can condemn what the extremists do all they want, but the VERY EXISTENCE of moderates supports the existence of the extremists.  The moderates (of any religion, let me be clear on that) claim belief in the SAME books that the extremists do, they just don't follow their own books as well as the extremists do.

But by demanding that their books, which do indeed include monstrous deeds done by their Abrahamic god and his minions, and commandmets supposedly from that same monstrous god and also his monstrous followers, be held sacred and holy by all people, then they are, without realizing it perhaps, still supporting their violent extremist cousins.

I can stand up and loudly DENOUNCE how Sea World treats their orcas.  But if I continue to go every year, pay for tickets and take my family, then my condemnation of Sea World means nothing (except that I'm a hypocrite).  This is the same relationship moderates and extremists seem to have, IMO. 
Just saying "I don't agree with (insert action here)" means shit, if you continue to support the things that cause the action you supposedly don't agree with.

[Shiranu]

Here is the problem Shiranu.  They can condemn what the extremists do all they want, but the VERY EXISTENCE of moderates supports the existence of the extremists.  The moderates (of any religion, let me be clear on that) claim belief in the SAME books that the extremists do, they just don't follow their own books as well as the extremists do.

But by demanding that their books, which do indeed include monstrous deeds done by their Abrahamic god and his minions, and commandmets supposedly from that same monstrous god and also his monstrous followers, be held sacred and holy by all people, then they are, without realizing it perhaps, still supporting their violent extremist cousins.

I can stand up and loudly DENOUNCE how Sea World treats their orcas.  But if I continue to go every year, pay for tickets and take my family, then my condemnation of Sea World means nothing (except that I'm a hypocrite).  This is the same relationship moderates and extremists seem to have, IMO. 
Just saying "I don't agree with (insert action here)" means shit, if you continue to support the things that cause the action you supposedly don't agree with.

I guess I am too much of a realist then to believe in a utopia without religion.

Tell me; you buy meat, do you not? You therefor are a huge contributor to global warming, to deforestation, to the murder of millions upon millions upon millions of innocent animals each year. Each dollar you spend is paying for hundreds of thousands of Amazonian trees to be cut down, for hundreds of millions of cows and chickens and pigs to be treated like absolute shit, to the destruction of our environment.

You are on a computer; who made it? You are wearing clothing; who made it? Every time you log onto this site, you are using a several hundred dollar piece of machinery that was made by some Chinese labourer who gets paid almost nothing for his or her job, who works in unsafe conditions and are supporting a authoritarian regime in China. Unless you exclusively wear American made clothing (with American [that didn't use migrant worker] fabrics), you are supporting a massive industry that exploits children in country like Guatamala, China, Bangladesh, India, El Salvador, etc. etc. into working at sweat shops. Hundreds of millions of children suffer everyday because you put money into a system that has children working in a situation where they can be locked in a building to burn to death by the hundreds, where they lose fingers and arms to machinery, where their lungs are filled with dyes and chemicals from the products they make.

You pay taxes, yes? You therefor, through your money, are paying for the bombing of hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children across the world. Your money went towards overthrowing democratic governments to install dictators. Your money paid for the occupation of two nations. Your money pays for the tax breaks of the rich and therefor the increased burden upon the poor.

To quote you...

Just saying "I don't agree with (insert action here)" means shit, if you continue to support the things that cause the action you supposedly don't agree with.

...there ARE alternatives, and yet you are clearly not using them, otherwise you would not be here. The money you and I spend goes to the, in all honesty, torture and shitty living conditions of billions of people around the world, as well as the murder of billions of animals and the destruction of our planet.

So how can you sit here and judge the religious for finding peace in their faith, and how terrible they are for "supporting" terrorists in doing so, when you spend so much money to prop up a system that has been far more to destructive to humanity than Islam can ever dream of doing?

I am not judging you for this, as I am just as guilty of it; again, I am just a realist. I have far more blood on my hands than Muslim terrorists ever will, and I don't even have as good of an excuse; I am greedy vs legitimate political complaints that many Muslim terrorists actually fought for. But lets not act like we are somehow so much better than them.

[Aroura33]

I guess I am too much of a realist then to believe in a utopia without religion.

Tell me; you buy meat, do you not? You therefor are a huge contributor to global warming, to deforestation, to the murder of millions upon millions upon millions of innocent animals each year. Each dollar you spend is paying for hundreds of thousands of Amazonian trees to be cut down, for hundreds of millions of cows and chickens and pigs to be treated like absolute shit, to the destruction of our environment.

You are on a computer; who made it? You are wearing clothing; who made it? Every time you log onto this site, you are using a several hundred dollar piece of machinery that was made by some Chinese labourer who gets paid almost nothing for his or her job, who works in unsafe conditions and are supporting a authoritarian regime in China. Unless you exclusively wear American made clothing (with American [that didn't use migrant worker] fabrics), you are supporting a massive industry that exploits children in country like Guatamala, China, Bangladesh, India, El Salvador, etc. etc. into working at sweat shops. Hundreds of millions of children suffer everyday because you put money into a system that has children working in a situation where they can be locked in a building to burn to death by the hundreds, where they lose fingers and arms to machinery, where their lungs are filled with dyes and chemicals from the products they make.

You pay taxes, yes? You therefor, through your money, are paying for the bombing of hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children across the world. Your money went towards overthrowing democratic governments to install dictators. Your money paid for the occupation of two nations. Your money pays for the tax breaks of the rich and therefor the increased burden upon the poor.

To quote you...

...there ARE alternatives, and yet you are clearly not using them, otherwise you would not be here. The money you and I spend goes to the, in all honesty, torture and shitty living conditions of billions of people around the world, as well as the murder of billions of animals and the destruction of our planet.

So how can you sit here and judge the religious for finding peace in their faith, and how terrible they are for "supporting" terrorists in doing so, when you spend so much money to prop up a system that has been far more to destructive to humanity than Islam can ever dream of doing?

I am not judging you for this, as I am just as guilty of it; again, I am just a realist. I have far more blood on my hands than Muslim terrorists ever will, and I don't even have as good of an excuse; I am greedy vs legitimate political complaints that many Muslim terrorists actually fought for. But lets not act like we are somehow so much better than them.

You are absolutely right!  I AM a hypocrite when it comes to most global issues.
That doesn't excuse the moderate religious people from also being hypocrites.  The I'm rubber your glue argument holds no water.

At any rate, I personally have taken some steps to stop contributing to global problems, as many here on these forums have.  I ONLY buy meat that is farmed or grows locally.  I only buy produce the same way.  Little of my families food is shipped from Guam or even Florida. We've taken even more drastic steps as well.  Do you know I sew most of my families clothing?  I've posted pictures here before, but not sure anyone cared or remembers.  Our clothing is not sewn in a shop on the other side of the world by kids for 5c an hour.  I also only use upcycled material (I don't buy fabric new, I mean).

So yes, I use a computer and use electricity, etc,  and am therefor part of the problem, but I've taken steps to actually do something about what I say I believe, more than just the act of saying it anyway, and I bet you have, too.

Most moderately religious people do nothing to stop extremists except what religious people always do, just SAY something, PRAY about it.  Basically....nothing.
Take steps.  The Imams could, for instance, get together and say that anyone that commits violence in the name of Islam is now an Apostate and use their own Sharia courts to perform Takfir (or however that is stated).  But that isn't event he way Islam works, you can't BE kicked out the way other religions can.
And anyway, the Imams can't do that because.....the "extremists" are technically following the holy books, and not breaking it's laws.

You see, because I am unfettered by the belief that my beliefs and actions are sanctioned by the divine, I can drop a belief and/or change a behavior much more easily than those who think their actions are sanctioned by the creator of the universe.
So...I can go ahead and stop buying from Walmart, I can get solar panels for my house, I can raise chickens in my backyard (something we are considering, as my BiL has 3 and it's been great for him).  I'm not invested in the way of life my parents showed me, I can change, I DO change.

Religious moderates also change their stance on things.  Although they often still have to be dragged kicking and screaming forward.
BUT, they cannot give up the book that they are no longer following, so ironically their adherence to the dogma that the book(s) is divine is still the reason we have extremists.  If Christians all suddenly decided to adopt the Jefferson Bible, for instance, that would be taking actual action to not only say, but mean that they no longer agree with the barbarism of their old book, and the extremism it can cause.  The bible has already undergone a lot of revisions to stay "relevant".

The problem with Islam is that their book is actually still pretty much intact from the time it was written. It hasn't bee translated through 7 dead languages to get where it is today.  With most Christians, you can get them to admit that the bible has flaws because of human handling. With Islam, even the moderates believe it really is the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD, untouched by human hands, unerring and perfect.
THAT supports extremism. :(

[SGOS]

I have far more blood on my hands than Muslim terrorists ever will...

??

[Aroura33]

??

To be fair, shopping regularly at Walmart is probably causing more suffering in the world than blowing up one building.  I think that is what he is trying to say.

The difference is, he assumes all of us contribute equally to that kind of shit.  It doesn't work that way.

[Shiranu]

??

I am, bluntly, a very materialistic person. I have spent thousands upon thousands upon thousands of dollars in my life that supports organizations that use child labour and fund corrupt governments that deny their people even the most basic of fundamental rights.

I am a monster. And why? Because I am greedy, because I am lazy. Religion is, to me, a better excuse than that.

The difference is, he assumes all of us contribute equally to that kind of shit.  It doesn't work that way.

If you live in the West, you contribute more to this than the average Muslim contributes to terrorism (or at the very least, the same amount, which is to say none at all because adults make their own choices). Simply in paying taxes you have contributed just as much to torture as Islam has.

[Aroura33]

I am, bluntly, a very materialistic person. I have spent thousands upon thousands upon thousands of dollars in my life that supports organizations that use child labour and fund corrupt governments that deny their people even the most basic of fundamental rights.

I am a monster. And why? Because I am greedy, because I am lazy. Religion is, to me, a better excuse than that.

If you live in the West, you contribute more to this than the average Muslim contributes to terrorism (or at the very least, the same amount, which is to say none at all because adults make their own choices). Simply in paying taxes you have contributed just as much to torture as Islam has.

I don't pay taxes......I'm disabled. 

I do see your point though, but you don't see mine.
Yes, western living often does contribute to global suffering.  But why?  Why do westerners feel so ok with wrecking the planet and enslaving people from other countries?  Don't you think the underlying Christian belief that we are better, that we own the earth and the animals and God will make it ok for those poor starving children in the end is a driving force in our recklessness?  After all, when westerners DO realize their mistakes and try to rectify it, it's Christians who scream that Global Warming is fake and God gave them the right to do whatever they want to animals.

And your assumption that all westerners contribute equally is BS.  I know people who do not own computers or cell phones, who have done all they can to reduce their carbon footprint to 0, who live in a city but still grow most of their own food or buy it very locally, and who vocally oppose and vote against those who would take our country into bloody wars.  Any of that is more than practicing religious persons can say about stopping their own extremist.

Even so, your argument is irrelevant, Tu quoque logical fallacy.  Even if I AM a complete hypocrite and spend money willy nilly on things made in China, buy food farmed on rainforest land, and happily pay my government to go into illegal wars (and I don't do any of that, BTW), that still does not make the argument that moderate religious people support extremist religious people invalid.

Please tell me why this argument is actually invalid, if you believe it is.

[Munch]

Wow, really blowing that one out of the water there Shiranu. I think your find my point rests in the fact that people within religous groups DO turn a blind eye to the actions of extremists within those faiths, even those of a more moderate persuasion.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/dgreenfield/80-of-london-muslims-support-isis/

http://pamelageller.com/2014/06/muslims-west-express-support-islamic-state-aka-isis.html/

And likewise it doesn't take much to look up people who support the insane bullshit christians do to minorities, not on a group scale but individuals who stand against progressive right, american Christians are some of the worst examples.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/01/opinions/granderson-indiana-pence-culture-wars/

http://mysticpolitics.com/anti-atheist-discrimination-in-america/

[SGOS]

I am, bluntly, a very materialistic person. I have spent thousands upon thousands upon thousands of dollars in my life that supports organizations that use child labour and fund corrupt governments that deny their people even the most basic of fundamental rights.

I am a monster. And why? Because I am greedy, because I am lazy. Religion is, to me, a better excuse than that.

If you live in the West, you contribute more to this than the average Muslim contributes to terrorism (or at the very least, the same amount, which is to say none at all because adults make their own choices). Simply in paying taxes you have contributed just as much to torture as Islam has.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I'm not buying it.  Join ISIS and cut off a few heads, and then come back and tell us you are a better person than the rest of us, and then I'll agree that you are truly a dickhead and an asshole.  Until then, I'll just accuse you of being unnecessarily melodramatic.

[Shiranu]

Yes, they are inherently worse people than us, but that is not who we are talking about. We are talking about how moderate religious are enablers, to which I respond that 99% of westerners are enablers of far worse crimes.

There are things we can criticize them for and I am all for that. Enabling is just not one that we have the moral high ground to do.

And that somehow makes me melodramatic to point out, and I am therefore defending radicalism... This is why I try not to discuss religion with atheists; we are far too quick to tell religious people exactly who and what they ACTUALLY believe instead of admitting that people can think differently than us.

[Munch]

The problem I see if that you are binding together religious fundamentalism within cultures, and those of the societies themselves, when honestly your condemnation of western cultures actions and what causes suffering to eastern provinces, doesn't come together.

Its like your saying buying shoes is harming a families religious belief. That doesn't go together, I will say it is a problem where poor countries manufacture products and the kind of suffering that go on in work houses and factories people there is well known, but religious belief and the impact of peoples lives doesn't come together. Its even like your accusing westerners of buying cheap products on purpose to cause suffering to poor countries, which isn't the consumers fault, if people in the western world have to buy fucking poorer products to live themselves.

Blames the major corporations if you have to blame someone, not the consumer, who doesn't have a choice but to go for the cheaper brands.