My Personal Opinion on the Hijab, Burqa, and Niqab

[Mike Cl]

Yes, they are inherently worse people than us, but that is not who we are talking about. We are talking about how moderate religious are enablers, to which I respond that 99% of westerners are enablers of far worse crimes.

There are things we can criticize them for and I am all for that. Enabling is just not one that we have the moral high ground to do.

And that somehow makes me melodramatic to point out, and I am therefore defending radicalism... This is why I try not to discuss religion with atheists; we are far too quick to tell religious people exactly who and what they ACTUALLY believe instead of admitting that people can think differently than us.

I understand your point Shiranu--if you live in a glass house don't throw stones.  And I almost buy it.  The problem as I see it, with any and all organized religions is that they demand that all believers be just that--believers.  Faith is the cornerstone of that system.  Without faith and belief, there is no religion of any kind (of the organized type).  So, all religious are out of necessity, blind to reasoning.  They don't 'think' in a fully rational way.  Of course they turn a blind eye to what the extremists among them--they are not that far from them in belief and if they question them too much then they have to question more deeply what they believe themselves.  And that is not good. 

Yes, Corporate America is neutral at best and evil at worst (or usual).  And our form of govt. is not the best that could be, no matter what the political hacks tell us.  Capitalism, without regulation, turns into a hungry, evil beast that devours all that it can.  So, how do we temper these issues?  I really don't know and can get quite depressed if I think about it too long.  But organized religion does not offer any relief from those problems--they simply compound those issues.  So, getting rid of organized religion would be a step in the right direction.

[pr126]

The most explicit condemnation came from Iyad Ameen Madani, the Secretary General for the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, the group representing 57 countries, and 1.4 billion Muslims.

Iyad Ameen Madani, the Secretary General for the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, must know Quran 33:36. But he hopes that you don't:

“It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.”


Firstly, I do not believe that this is anything more than damage control to save Islam's image to gullible westerners who WANT to believe this.

Secondly, if he truly holds to his condemnation, then he is condemning the Quran, Islam, it's teachings, and Muhammad.

That makes him an apostate and a target to any believing Muslim who is authorized by sharia law to kill him forthwith for apostasy.

[Aroura33]

Yes, they are inherently worse people than us, but that is not who we are talking about. We are talking about how moderate religious are enablers, to which I respond that 99% of westerners are enablers of far worse crimes.

There are things we can criticize them for and I am all for that. Enabling is just not one that we have the moral high ground to do.

And that somehow makes me melodramatic to point out, and I am therefore defending radicalism... This is why I try not to discuss religion with atheists; we are far too quick to tell religious people exactly who and what they ACTUALLY believe instead of admitting that people can think differently than us.

I guess I just don't see how you have to have the moral high ground to make a valid point.  I could be a true monster and still point a perfectly accurate truth about someone else's monstrous nature....and be perfectly accurate.

Westerns life styles can change.
Islam isn't going to let someone rewrite their book, full of directions for violence.  That's why it keeps coming back to bite them in the ass.

That is also a fundamental difference between these 2 things you seem intent to compare.

But I'm done here, just tired.  I'll let you have the final word, Shiranu. :)

[Youssuf Ramadan]

What is the vast majority of progressive Muslims do to stop the tiny minority of fundamentalist from indiscriminate mass slaughtering all over the world in the name of Allah?

Not a great deal when it's the fundies who hold the power and actively seek out and kill moderates.  Maybe you should go over there and show them how it's done.

Do you think that if there was a tiny minority of Christians going on a murderous rampage the rest of Christianity would silently look the other way? Could they go on brutally slaughtering year after year?

It's already going on in in Nigeria and Kenya.  However, Christians murdering others isn't acceptable in western media and doesn't get reported in the mainstream.
Plus, you seem to have forgotten the crusades, Cortez in the Americas, Hitler's multiple references to scripture before and during the holocaust.

I think you hear what you want to hear, mate.  But then, that's your choice....