Why atheism over agnosticism?

[Mike Cl]

in christianity evil is seen as the opposite of God, a quality of separation

CP you are quite frustrating to try to have a conversation with.  What does the above mean?  I asked if god created evil, then should he not be held responsible for it?  If it is the opposite, so what?  Who created evil in the first place?

[Contemporary Protestant]

i dont think God created evil, he created beings with a capacity for evil, and some people choose evil

i see it as a consequence of free will

i dont see how a loving God would make us all automatons
so this is the limit of my understanding

god made us and we choose to do evil rather than good

[Hydra009]

i dont think God created evil, he created beings with a capacity for evil, and some people choose evil

i see it as a consequence of free will

i dont see how a loving God would make us all automatons
so this is the limit of my understanding

god made us and we choose to do evil rather than good

An awfully long list of screwed up stuff OR automatons!  I'm sensing a bit of an excluded middle fallacy there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzf8q9QHfhI

[trdsf]

i dont think God created evil, he created beings with a capacity for evil, and some people choose evil

i see it as a consequence of free will

i dont see how a loving God would make us all automatons
so this is the limit of my understanding

god made us and we choose to do evil rather than good

How does that absolve a god of any responsibility of the evil done by his creations?

If I have a teenage child that I know is unruly, and I don't take steps to control his behavior, that makes me at least party responsible for any crimes he might commit.  This is precisely analogous.  If a putative god is capable of correcting the evil done by his creations but doesn't, he is immediately complicit in them.  If he is not capable of correcting them, how much of a god is he?

What you propose is that this god is not responsible for the actions of his creations.  I might be willing to accept that, on the stipulation that he is responsible for the consequences if he could correct the evil done, but doesn't.

If we have the power to choose, so does he.  Ultimately, a god that permits evil when he could prevent it, is no different from us -- and in that case, whither godhood?

[Munch]

i dont think God created evil, he created beings with a capacity for evil, and some people choose evil

i see it as a consequence of free will

i dont see how a loving God would make us all automatons
so this is the limit of my understanding

god made us and we choose to do evil rather than good

Can you answer me this then, as over on the Russell brand thread, if God made us, is all knowing and all loving, why then are children born with bone cancer, or born as harlequin babies, how the fuck is that level of suffering in an innocent new born child, if God is real, anything less the pure evil? Such things are not the result of 'our consequences'.

[SGOS]

Before I get to involved in why God does this or that, I'd like someone to explain how he knows God exists.  Only then does it even make sense to argue about his nature or how wonderful he is.

[Munch]

Before I get to involved in why God does this or that, I'd like someone to explain how he knows God exists.  Only then does it even make sense to argue about his nature or how wonderful he is.

I've often thought how in the mind of a christian, when you pop this question, how they explain the creation of the universe as being by god, and ask when then where did god come from, it must be like a blood vessel popping in their brain, since they can't rationalize the universe without god being part of it before.

[SGOS]

I've often thought how in the mind of a christian, when you pop this question, how they explain the creation of the universe as being by god, and ask when then where did god come from, it must be like a blood vessel popping in their brain, since they can't rationalize the universe without god being part of it before.

One of Brand's plagiarized comments [from that other thread] was, "Scientists say, 'Just give us one miracle (the big bang), and we'll explain all the rest."  This is one whopping bag of horse shit.  Since when have scientists asked for a miracle?  When has any reputable scientists stated that the big bang was a miracle?  It's always clear that science doesn't claim knowledge of what caused the big bang.  But for theists, if you don't understand something, it's either a miracle or caused by God.  They are still explaining things in the 21st Century the way cavemen explained thunder.

Edit:  I thought I was still responding in the Wisdom of Russell thread.  I was still thinking about how inane his arguments were and Munch got me going, so I gravitated back to the other thread.

[aitm]

I dont see where CP said any of those things.

You haven't back in awhile Mo….I think you would agree that previous statements from other posts can be used as background for the general positions of people. I believe you have the ability to view his older posts.

[aitm]

He didnt come here claiming absolute truth

again, he has a whole half year of history here. Since when has spouting nonsense while being "polite" a pass for bullshit? And in re-reading my response, I don't see the insult that you guys do. Implied perhaps, as he has.

[Contemporary Protestant]

excuse me, but am i not allowed to change my opinion on issues especially over the course of a year? expecting me to not change my mind after exposure to new imformation is ridiculous

[Mike Cl]

i dont think God created evil, he created beings with a capacity for evil, and some people choose evil

god made us and we choose to do evil rather than good

Come now, CP.  I really don't think you are stupid.  Think about that statement.  A couple of examples.  I bake a beautiful cake, frost it and all, and put it on a small table in my 3 yr. old's room.  I tell he not to touch it and leave the room.  She has the capacity to obey my words, but we all know the outcome.  When she dives into that cake, who is responsible?  Her, since she had free will?  Or am I?  Of course I am the most to blame.  So, god created me all good.  Yet he created that which will tempt me to go to the dark side.  That evil is like the cake--is it not a temptation?  So, why would god tempt us?  Is he playing with us?  Must be.  And if I fail then I get to be punished forever. 

So, god did not invent rape and murder.  But he created the capacity for rape and murder.  How is that any different?  If god creates a capacity for something, then he is creating that something.  There is no difference.  In the eyes of puny human law, if I have a ladder leaning against my 6 ft. fence that allows a 6 yr. old to climb it and and then enter my pool and drown, that was a temptation too great for that child to not use it.  That death is on me.  If I leave the keys in the ignition of my car and someone steals it, I am held mostly responsible.  How can a loving all-knowing god not be held responsible for the temptations he creates?  Is god to stupid to see the connection between temptation and action?  And he created the entire universe and all it contains, including evil and the devil--how can he not then be held responsible for all that actions that flow from his actions? 

[Contemporary Protestant]

there is probably a better explanation but i dont want to risk misrepresenting, assuming, and i dont have time to research currently, between school and work, i have time to chat a wee bit but not enough to compile good information and elaborate responses

[Contemporary Protestant]

i also think your premise is faulty

what kind of a person is tempted to harm others? other than a bad person
yes thats a bold statement, but i do think people who do harm to others are not good people

[Mike Cl]

i also think your premise is faulty

what kind of a person is tempted to harm others? other than a bad person
yes thats a bold statement, but i do think people who do harm to others are not good people

'Harm others'--that covers a whole lot of ground.  Do you mean physical harm or emotional harm?  Or both?   What about unintentional harm?  The hurt is just as real whether or not the harm is intentional or not.  What if you harm another who is trying to harm you?  Or your dog?  Or child?  Or stranger? 

I think you are saying that god produces us as a tabla rosa--blank slate.  But that is simply not true.  Each of us pops out of mom as unique individual that is shaped by our environment and our genes.  We come partly preprogrammed.   So, the fact is that we do not have total control over who and what we are--we may have some sway over much of that, but we do not have 'free will' or total control over who and what we become.  The deeper one looks at 'god' the sloppier he becomes and the less 'good' and the more demented he becomes.  The same can be said for any god.