Started by Jalal_T, November 13, 2022, 04:16:56 PM
Quote from: ManUfan on November 16, 2022, 06:37:39 PMI could be wrong, but I detected a bit of sarcasm in Jalals post.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 16, 2022, 07:25:34 PMThis point from his intro is different than any that I've read on this site: "5. All my knowledge and skills are now used to serve Atheists and Secularist and to demolish the Islamic doctrine in a systematic way."A little odd--could be he is pulling our leg, or it could be English is his second language.
Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 08:31:46 AMThank you for your feedback. Yes, that's correct, English is my second language. Of course I am not trying to pull your leg, the game was over for me as Muslim apologist, it was an unconditional surrender to Secularists and Atheists who won the debate. There is no room for me to maneuver of take revenge by re-initiating a debate. Also, no way back for many reasons: 1. I fully admitted the defeat, thus, the credibility of any future attempts to defend Islam have been aborted beforehand. The result is final and objective. Why would potential converts to Islam listen to someone who was once defeated in debates with Secularists, admitted that and submitted a testimony?2. The case was fully documented and was published to serve as a source material for freethinkers in the Muslim world. Thanks for the Internet, that never forgets anything!3. FACT: if someone simply says he/she is an ex-Muslim then by virtue of that fact, he/she is an ex-Muslim according to Islamic Sharia (religious law). Sharia is simple!4. It is "Haram" (forbidden by Islamic law) to say that you are not Muslim when you are.It was a clear win for Secularists and Atheists.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 24, 2022, 08:53:24 AMThanks for the reply. We have had many, many what I call drive-by theists who post once or twice and are then gone. I wasn't sure if you were not one of those. Okay, so what do you think of the world of spirituality and religion now? You are not a Muslim now, but do you still believe in a god? I see spirituality as woo, and based on fiction. What do you think?
Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 09:19:47 AMI understand. I think of religion as culture now, and spirituality a kind of dream, like when you close your eyes and dream about something you wish to happen. One point to note though is that as a Muslim apologist, spirituality gives the feeling that you are so strong. But as soon as you start arguments with non-Muslims you realize that it this overconfidence is nothing more than a large balloon filled with hot air, once it is deflated it is nothing more than a plastic bag. It is very discrediting in the eyes of Muslims to see a Muslim apologist submitting to Atheists, but this is what happened.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 24, 2022, 10:28:39 AMYeah, I view spirituality much the same way. BTW, I don't see that you are 'submitting' to atheists; I see you accepting the atheist thought that there are no gods. Other than that, there is no atheist program; basically, each ashiest has their own view of what the world and life is; atheists do not walk in lock step. BTW, your English is very good.
Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 11:34:48 AMThank you for your reply and complement. Yes I understand your view point that it might not be submitting but accepting, but Muslim audience view it as a defeat and submit. Many of Muslim apologists rely on an approach that affects the psychology of the audience in order to convince them. For example, many Muslims go to Islamic book stores and buy the famous videotape entitled "The Great Debate between Ahmed Deedat and the well known American Evangelical Jimmy Swaggart". Muslims usually show this tape to Secularists, Atheists and Christians as proof of Islam's superiority. Zakir Naik also put those who converted to Islam after debate on stage and exposed them in public. Secularists and Atheists whom I debated with are more rational and have your view point. It was sufficient for them that I declared that I used wrong logic in my arguments. But if Muslim apologists insist on accepting this as an acceptable defeat then let it be. Although I am not a famous scholar, I am a well-established Muslim apologist and the case is at least a counter example that Secularists and Atheists can enjoy and discuss with their Muslim friends. For this reason we published some articles that illustrated the case and showed how Islamic arguments can be refuted.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 24, 2022, 12:00:44 PMI don't like the term 'submitted' because that gives the theist the feeling that I am acknowledging he is superior in his thoughts. In fact, I don't think most theists 'think'--they simply 'believe' and strive for 'faith'. Belief and faith has nothing to do with critical thinking and facts; thinking deals with facts. Actually, I am astounded by you because it is so very difficult to transcend one's beliefs and faith and embrace critical thinking. You seem to have done that. And you were not 'defeated'; you displayed the ability to leave belief behind and accept critical thinking--you were able to consider both sides and came to embrace that side that rejected beliefs and superstitions for what they are.
Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 11:34:48 AMYes I understand your view point that it might not be submitting but accepting, but Muslim audience view it as a defeat and submit.