I am a former Muslim apologist who came to terms with an intellectual defeat of Islam after debating many Secularists in the UK. I failed to defend the Islamic arguments many times, so I surrendered (unconditional surrender) and admitted that and documented it by publishing a testimony and a number of articles which marked my permanent closure of my exist from Islam.
I wanted to do penance for what I had intended to do to Secularists once I had defeated them in debate -- humiliate them by publishing the results and use social media platforms, e-forums and journals. I planned for that in meticulous detail. However, my defeat was a lesson in itself and I never did get to carry out my intended humiliation of Secularists. Ironically, my plans turned on me. The case was considered a great win for Secularists and Atheists for the following reasons:
1. It was I who initiated the debate with the Secularists. Planned for that for around 20 years, was overconfident, thought that I was invincible and vowed to win.
2. It was fairly easy for my Secular opponents to prove me wrong using Islamic sources.
3. Unlike most encounters where both parties claim victory over each other. I admitted my full decisive defeat and the victory of my opponents which was acknowledged by them. Thus, the results of the debates are objective and complete.
4. It is an ex-Muslim who is going to explain the wrong ways of Islam and tell his story, not an atheist, or someone from another religion or even a fledged young Muslim who is newly introduced to the faith of Islam, but someone who studied the faith very well.
5. All my knowledge and skills are now used to serve Atheists and Secularist and to demolish the Islamic doctrine in a systematic way.
Quite the intro! Welcome to this little band of heathens!
Thank you! It is an honour for me to be a servant for the Atheist community.
Welcome Jalal, the willingness to grow, and learn iw a most wonderful qnd applaudable trait.
Good for you.
Looking forward to your posts.
I could be wrong, but I detected a bit of sarcasm in Jalals post.
Quote from: ManUfan on November 16, 2022, 06:37:39 PMI could be wrong, but I detected a bit of sarcasm in Jalals post.
This point from his intro is different than any that I've read on this site: "5. All my knowledge and skills are now used to serve Atheists and Secularist and to demolish the Islamic doctrine in a systematic way."
A little odd--could be he is pulling our leg, or it could be English is his second language.
Quote from: ManUfan on November 16, 2022, 06:37:39 PMI could be wrong, but I detected a bit of sarcasm in Jalals post.
Thanks for your comment. I understand that some people could have your point of view and think that post contains sarcasm but it does not, it actually points to an ex-Muslim case study.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 16, 2022, 07:25:34 PMThis point from his intro is different than any that I've read on this site: "5. All my knowledge and skills are now used to serve Atheists and Secularist and to demolish the Islamic doctrine in a systematic way."
A little odd--could be he is pulling our leg, or it could be English is his second language.
Thank you for your feedback. Yes, that's correct, English is my second language. Of course I am not trying to pull your leg, the game was over for me as Muslim apologist, it was an unconditional surrender to Secularists and Atheists who won the debate. There is no room for me to maneuver of take revenge by re-initiating a debate. Also, no way back for many reasons:
1. I fully admitted the defeat, thus, the credibility of any future attempts to defend Islam have been aborted beforehand. The result is final and objective. Why would potential converts to Islam listen to someone who was once defeated in debates with Secularists, admitted that and submitted a testimony?
2. The case was fully documented and was published to serve as a source material for freethinkers in the Muslim world. Thanks for the Internet, that never forgets anything!
3. FACT: if someone simply says he/she is an ex-Muslim then by virtue of that fact, he/she is an ex-Muslim according to Islamic Sharia (religious law). Sharia is simple!
4. It is "Haram" (forbidden by Islamic law) to say that you are not Muslim when you are.
It was a clear win for Secularists and Atheists.
Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 08:31:46 AMThank you for your feedback. Yes, that's correct, English is my second language. Of course I am not trying to pull your leg, the game was over for me as Muslim apologist, it was an unconditional surrender to Secularists and Atheists who won the debate. There is no room for me to maneuver of take revenge by re-initiating a debate. Also, no way back for many reasons:
1. I fully admitted the defeat, thus, the credibility of any future attempts to defend Islam have been aborted beforehand. The result is final and objective. Why would potential converts to Islam listen to someone who was once defeated in debates with Secularists, admitted that and submitted a testimony?
2. The case was fully documented and was published to serve as a source material for freethinkers in the Muslim world. Thanks for the Internet, that never forgets anything!
3. FACT: if someone simply says he/she is an ex-Muslim then by virtue of that fact, he/she is an ex-Muslim according to Islamic Sharia (religious law). Sharia is simple!
4. It is "Haram" (forbidden by Islamic law) to say that you are not Muslim when you are.
It was a clear win for Secularists and Atheists.
Thanks for the reply. We have had many, many what I call drive-by theists who post once or twice and are then gone. I wasn't sure if you were not one of those. Okay, so what do you think of the world of spirituality and religion now? You are not a Muslim now, but do you still believe in a god? I see spirituality as woo, and based on fiction. What do you think?
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 24, 2022, 08:53:24 AMThanks for the reply. We have had many, many what I call drive-by theists who post once or twice and are then gone. I wasn't sure if you were not one of those. Okay, so what do you think of the world of spirituality and religion now? You are not a Muslim now, but do you still believe in a god? I see spirituality as woo, and based on fiction. What do you think?
I understand. I think of religion as culture now, and spirituality a kind of dream, like when you close your eyes and dream about something you wish to happen.
One point to note though is that as a Muslim apologist, spirituality gives the feeling that you are so strong. But as soon as you start arguments with non-Muslims you realize that it this overconfidence is nothing more than a large balloon filled with hot air, once it is deflated it is nothing more than a plastic bag. It is very discrediting in the eyes of Muslims to see a Muslim apologist submitting to Atheists, but this is what happened.
Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 09:19:47 AMI understand. I think of religion as culture now, and spirituality a kind of dream, like when you close your eyes and dream about something you wish to happen.
One point to note though is that as a Muslim apologist, spirituality gives the feeling that you are so strong. But as soon as you start arguments with non-Muslims you realize that it this overconfidence is nothing more than a large balloon filled with hot air, once it is deflated it is nothing more than a plastic bag. It is very discrediting in the eyes of Muslims to see a Muslim apologist submitting to Atheists, but this is what happened.
Yeah, I view spirituality much the same way. BTW, I don't see that you are 'submitting' to atheists; I see you accepting the atheist thought that there are no gods. Other than that, there is no atheist program; basically, each ashiest has their own view of what the world and life is; atheists do not walk in lock step.
BTW, your English is very good.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 24, 2022, 10:28:39 AMYeah, I view spirituality much the same way. BTW, I don't see that you are 'submitting' to atheists; I see you accepting the atheist thought that there are no gods. Other than that, there is no atheist program; basically, each ashiest has their own view of what the world and life is; atheists do not walk in lock step.
BTW, your English is very good.
Thank you for your reply and complement. Yes I understand your view point that it might not be submitting but accepting, but Muslim audience view it as a defeat and submit. Many of Muslim apologists rely on an approach that affects the psychology of the audience in order to convince them. For example, many Muslims go to Islamic book stores and buy the famous videotape entitled "The Great Debate between Ahmed Deedat and the well known American Evangelical Jimmy Swaggart". Muslims usually show this tape to Secularists, Atheists and Christians as proof of Islam's superiority. Zakir Naik also put those who converted to Islam after debate on stage and exposed them in public.
Secularists and Atheists whom I debated with are more rational and have your view point. It was sufficient for them that I declared that I used wrong logic in my arguments. But if Muslim apologists insist on accepting this as an acceptable defeat then let it be. Although I am not a famous scholar, I am a well-established Muslim apologist and the case is at least a counter example that Secularists and Atheists can enjoy and discuss with their Muslim friends. For this reason we published some articles that illustrated the case and showed how Islamic arguments can be refuted.
Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 11:34:48 AMThank you for your reply and complement. Yes I understand your view point that it might not be submitting but accepting, but Muslim audience view it as a defeat and submit. Many of Muslim apologists rely on an approach that affects the psychology of the audience in order to convince them. For example, many Muslims go to Islamic book stores and buy the famous videotape entitled "The Great Debate between Ahmed Deedat and the well known American Evangelical Jimmy Swaggart". Muslims usually show this tape to Secularists, Atheists and Christians as proof of Islam's superiority. Zakir Naik also put those who converted to Islam after debate on stage and exposed them in public.
Secularists and Atheists whom I debated with are more rational and have your view point. It was sufficient for them that I declared that I used wrong logic in my arguments. But if Muslim apologists insist on accepting this as an acceptable defeat then let it be. Although I am not a famous scholar, I am a well-established Muslim apologist and the case is at least a counter example that Secularists and Atheists can enjoy and discuss with their Muslim friends. For this reason we published some articles that illustrated the case and showed how Islamic arguments can be refuted.
I don't like the term 'submitted' because that gives the theist the feeling that I am acknowledging he is superior in his thoughts. In fact, I don't think most theists 'think'--they simply 'believe' and strive for 'faith'. Belief and faith has nothing to do with critical thinking and facts; thinking deals with facts. Actually, I am astounded by you because it is so very difficult to transcend one's beliefs and faith and embrace critical thinking. You seem to have done that. And you were not 'defeated'; you displayed the ability to leave belief behind and accept critical thinking--you were able to consider both sides and came to embrace that side that rejected beliefs and superstitions for what they are.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 24, 2022, 12:00:44 PMI don't like the term 'submitted' because that gives the theist the feeling that I am acknowledging he is superior in his thoughts. In fact, I don't think most theists 'think'--they simply 'believe' and strive for 'faith'. Belief and faith has nothing to do with critical thinking and facts; thinking deals with facts. Actually, I am astounded by you because it is so very difficult to transcend one's beliefs and faith and embrace critical thinking. You seem to have done that. And you were not 'defeated'; you displayed the ability to leave belief behind and accept critical thinking--you were able to consider both sides and came to embrace that side that rejected beliefs and superstitions for what they are.
Thanks, I respect your opinion. BTW, I currently work for some Secularist friends -- research/translation tasks in Arabic/English and typeset documents -- and will be happy to serve many Atheists. Please let me know if you are interested. This is of course free-of-cost work (i.e., nothing in return).
Not being able to understand Arabic is a major weakness for Western non-Muslims. They are limited to what has been translated into English. Absolutely devastating material, such as certain manuals of Fiqh (human understanding and practices of the Sharia (Islamic law)) has been translated to English, but the most embarrassing materials in the fields of Tafsir and Hadith are left untranslated. I can fill this gap. Also, I can explain the Dawah tricks/mentality and document that.
Hope to be a useful member.
Quote from: Jalal_T on November 24, 2022, 11:34:48 AMYes I understand your view point that it might not be submitting but accepting, but Muslim audience view it as a defeat and submit.
I could easily see "submitting to secularism" as just a second language stumble. Equally, it could be a Muslim (or any religious) perspective that one must submit to something, usually an ideology or suffer serious consequences.
Submission is absolutely not required of secularism, and certainly not of atheism. Atheism is more like nothing or just a blank sheet of paper. Instead of a heartfelt belief, there is just an absence of a specific belief. Sure we have beliefs. I believe my dog loves me, but that's just a belief, not something I submit to or even commit to. Beliefs that cannot be proven are not important, and some may even be dangerous.
The only reason atheists commit to debating with religions, is because religions are filled with logical fallacies of the highest order, and they try to impose nonsensical doctrines into our lives. We argue with them in the lost hope that they will leave us alone, so that we can experience reality as it is and not what some prophet or the Pope wants it to be.
Most apologists are incapable of yielding on a single point. If you back them into a corner, they just change the subject or just continue repeating themselves like they don't understand a word you're saying. For you to be able to change your mind, especially with something as important as your religion, shows a great deal of intellectual honesty.
If Muslims are anything like Christians, though, they won't see it that way. They'll say you were either never a "true Muslim," or that you just didn't get it the way they do. Some might even accuse you of never having believed in the first place, and you just staged the whole thing to deceive the world. Anything to avoid accepting the truth that an honest atheist deconverted from their religion because of logic.
Thanks for the comment. Yes, some might call this intellectual honesty, although I think it is more of an unconditional surrender of a hard-headed Muslim apologist who had no choice but to swallow his argument, pride and obey the rational logic of Atheism.
I wanted to be a Muslim scholar of a different kind, I mean I thought I could be different, win all debates with non-Muslims and become sort of a hero of Islam. I was overconfident and inspired by Muslim scholars like Zakir Naik and Mr Deedat, and other Muslim scholars of the same kind. I had a lot of plans to make the debate results public using social media, e-forums, and publications.
After knowing my background and plans, Christian apologists were conservative and avoided my debate encounter -- although I insisted a lot. My confidence sky rocketed and I thought that I am truly invincible. Atheists and Secularists on the other hand accepted the challenge. As you said, I was cornered in the debate and could not escape because I initiated all that. I faced serious intellectual challenge in all arguments. I collapsed and surrendered. BTW, the arguments are well documented and we started publishing them in a dialog style, showing what I said, what they said and how the wrong logic collapsed, finally crowned by a statement of defeat acceptance. Christian apologists were delighted with the good news and we published the first argument on reddit. I will make a special post about it on this forum.
Something that I really appreciate and respect in Secularists and Atheists debaters is that although they have every reason and full right to expose all the details on the Internet -- especially that Muslim apologists always claim that these stories are fake -- they refrained as this may cause hurt to their defeated opponent. By doing so, they proved to be professional debaters with gentleman morals. They respected what they call "intellectual honesty". In return, I promised to apply my plans on myself. It is very fair to apply my plans on myself because I planned to apply them on my opponents should I have won the debates.
Quote from: SGOS on November 29, 2022, 09:24:35 AMI could easily see "submitting to secularism" as just a second language stumble. Equally, it could be a Muslim (or any religious) perspective that one must submit to something, usually an ideology or suffer serious consequences.
Submission is absolutely not required of secularism, and certainly not of atheism. Atheism is more like nothing or just a blank sheet of paper. Instead of a heartfelt belief, there is just an absence of a specific belief. Sure we have beliefs. I believe my dog loves me, but that's just a belief, not something I submit to or even commit to. Beliefs that cannot be proven are not important, and some may even be dangerous.
The only reason atheists commit to debating with religions, is because religions are filled with logical fallacies of the highest order, and they try to impose nonsensical doctrines into our lives. We argue with them in the lost hope that they will leave us alone, so that we can experience reality as it is and not what some prophet or the Pope wants it to be.
Being a former Muslim apologist, I know a little bit about the psychology of Muslims. Many Muslims online judge the truth of a thing just based on perceived strength and image. For example, apologists like Farid can have poor arguments, but he is one of the most popular Islamic apologists online because he speaks in a sarcastic voice. Another example is Muhammad Hijab, he says aggressive things and people think he is winning debates, it does not matter if he makes details up.
Some Muslim apologists accept the defeat and surrender others insist on their views. The appearance of submitting to non-Muslim is discrediting in the eyes of the Muslim audience. Many Muslims have a hard time accepting the fact that there are defeated Muslim apologists who accepted that and left Islam. The common reaction is that these testimonies are all fake. But some Muslims admitted that it is genuine because they were able to verify the cases see for example this one:
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=370641649
Mrs Khan and Mr Sultan also presented an extreme case, they called it "A Great Win!":
"Massive Islamic Preacher on YouTube Leaves Islam"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRV7rmddADU
The preacher had 80,000 subscribers on his YouTube channel and a huge number of videos with thousands of views, some with more than 800,000 views. He took it personally to debunk Mr Sultan's book, but he could not do that and he admitted his defeat. As shown in the video, the case was fully verified through email messages, WhatsApp messages and recorded phone/video calls. The preacher is inspirer to some very active Muslim scholar(s) who used to debate atheists on YouTube and he is now planning to move to a western country. Mr Sultan asked him and YouTube not to delete the channel of the preacher, so they can present the content along with the preacher's fresh look.
Here is another example: "Popular apologist FaridResponds debunks the widely cited story of an Indian King sighting the moon splitting."
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/ytzfv1/popular_apologist_faridresponds_debunks_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Muslim and Christian are very much alike, both can only be supported by logical fallacy. I can understand Muslims converting to Christianity, or the other way around, because they are both already programmed to accept teachings that cannot be validated logically. One belief is simply substituted for another.
Christians use apologetic strategies as well. I don't pay attention. I did for years as I considered myself a Christian in search of faith. I wanted to believe, but after years of searching, I slowly accepted the fact that I don't believe in gods, ghosts, spirits, or demons. So now I just ignore the preachers. I've heard all they have to say, and the ways they say it too many times to know that they are just wasting my time.
good luck
Quote from: Jalal_T on November 13, 2022, 04:49:56 PMThank you! It is an honour for me to be a servant for the Atheist community.
Oh come now, we don't need or want servants, we only want people who can think clearly.
Quote from: Jalal_T on November 13, 2022, 04:49:56 PMThank you! It is an honour for me to be a servant for the Atheist community.
Lololol wut