Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?

[Mike Cl]

Let's see if you can use logic instead of believing the B S the inquisitors said to justify their many murders.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

The definitions I supplied above was not taken from a catholic definition but general sources.  You use the term 'Gnostic Christians' as though they were a monolithic group or organization.  Now, and throughout history, there have been many groups who called themselves 'gnostic' and they do not agree on all of the tenets of being gnostic.  Typical of all religious organizations. 

You have yet to inform us of what it is your group believe. 

[Mike Cl]

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it;  cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said,  "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

The 'reality' of all religious is simply make-believe.  There is no god and all religious texts (including the bible and all of it variants) are manmade.  The real reality of the above is that it is make-believe.  purely manmade.  It is your opinion and not based on any facts you, or anyone else, can provide. You say--- Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.  Please do, but understand that that is only your opinion since you cannot give us any facts or proof to back it up.

[Mike Cl]

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

I see neither.  When I look around I simply see is what is.  It is neither good nor bad, it just is.  It was not created by anything or anybody, but just is.  Could it be better?  Sure.  Could it be worse? Sure.  But we have simply what is. 

The Candide quote is simply a matter of his opinion and nothing else.  I disagree with that opinion.

And this is not the best possible world to live in.  Or the worst either.  It is what it is.  As humans we are impacting this world, but mostly for the bad.  But we have the ability to make positive changes, though--and we'd better hurry. 

[Greatest I am]

I see neither.  When I look around I simply see is what is.  It is neither good nor bad, it just is.  It was not created by anything or anybody, but just is.  Could it be better?  Sure.  Could it be worse? Sure.  But we have simply what is. 

The Candide quote is simply a matter of his opinion and nothing else.  I disagree with that opinion.

And this is not the best possible world to live in.  Or the worst either.  It is what it is.  As humans we are impacting this world, but mostly for the bad.  But we have the ability to make positive changes, though--and we'd better hurry. 

Mostly for the bad??

There is a professor Pinker who will disagree with you.

There is a hell of a lot more good than evil around.

Make your case with stats, or google and listen to  Prof. Pinker who has and will refute your foolish view.

In fact, experts are saying that we are too good to each other.

That may be why we destroy our environment instead of each other.

As to --- "And this is not the best possible world to live in."

Given our history, how could it possibly be better?

Sure, your dick and mine could be bigger, for an example of better, but it is only a wish, --- given our history.

Simple logic.

Regards
DL

[Hydra009]

Mostly for the bad??

There is a professor Pinker who will disagree with you.

Better than in the past =/= things are peachy now (they're just better in comparison to the days of slavery and literal decimation)

As for worlds, I'll get back to you guys on that when we find another inhabited world.  Any statement on that is purely speculation at this point.

[aitm]

There is a hell of a lot more good than evil around..

Simple logic.

Spoken like a typical white male born in the US of median income and who life has been of relative ease.

Simple logic= ignorance of the world beyond his nose.

[Mike Cl]

Mostly for the bad??

There is a professor Pinker who will disagree with you.




Make your case with stats, or google and listen to  Prof. Pinker who has and will refute your foolish view.

In fact, experts are saying that we are too good to each other.

That may be why we destroy our environment instead of each other.

As to --- "And this is not the best possible world to live in."

Given our history, how could it possibly be better?

Sure, your dick and mine could be bigger, for an example of better, but it is only a wish, --- given our history.

Simple logic.

Regards
DL

We (humans) are killing the environment--the environment that has supported us for thousands of years.  Without a healthy environment humans cannot be healthy.  Yeah--simple logic.  Is that evil?  Not really--more like stupidity. 

You say, "There is a hell of a lot more good than evil around."  We finally agree. 

How could our history be better?  Since you believe (with no evidence to back it up) the universe was created by a creator, I have a suggestion or two of this mythical entity.  Your made up god in your manmade bible tells us 'thou shalt not kill'.  Yet nature makes it that we humans has to kill to live; we have no choice.  Plants can gather energy from the sun, but we cannot.  We have to kill (eat) plants and animals to survive.  And if we don't we die--we kill ourselves.  We have no choice, your creator saw to that.  So, I'd change it so that humans and all other animals could gather all the energy needed to live from the sun.  Or minerals and heat, like the system that works without sunlight at the bottom of the world's seas. 

And you still have not told us what it is you believe and why.  Why is that?  Because you really don't believe that any god exists--you just don't have the courage to say that.  Like all religious, they are motivated by fear and will buy into any hypothesis that deadens that fear.  The religious=cowards.

[Greatest I am]

We (humans) are killing the environment--the environment that has supported us for thousands of years.  Without a healthy environment humans cannot be healthy.  Yeah--simple logic.  Is that evil?  Not really--more like stupidity. 

You say, "There is a hell of a lot more good than evil around."  We finally agree. 

How could our history be better?  Since you believe (with no evidence to back it up) the universe was created by a creator, I have a suggestion or two of this mythical entity.  Your made up god in your manmade bible tells us 'thou shalt not kill'.  Yet nature makes it that we humans has to kill to live; we have no choice.  Plants can gather energy from the sun, but we cannot.  We have to kill (eat) plants and animals to survive.  And if we don't we die--we kill ourselves.  We have no choice, your creator saw to that.  So, I'd change it so that humans and all other animals could gather all the energy needed to live from the sun.  Or minerals and heat, like the system that works without sunlight at the bottom of the world's seas. 

And you still have not told us what it is you believe and why.  Why is that?  Because you really don't believe that any god exists--you just don't have the courage to say that.  Like all religious, they are motivated by fear and will buy into any hypothesis that deadens that fear.  The religious=cowards.

" Since you believe (with no evidence to back it up) the universe was created by a creator,"

" Because you really don't believe that any god exists"

You ask me what I  believe, while thinking I both do and do not believe in a creator.

How the fuck am I to respond to such contradictory idiocy?

I believe that there is no such thing as the supernatural.

No creator god.

What else would you like to know?

What other aspects of Gnostic Christianity would you like?

How about how we have condemned the genocidal Yahweh/Jesus to hell?

Not hell exists, but that is where that prick deserves to be.

Regards
DL

[Mike Cl]

How the fuck am I to respond to such contradictory idiocy?

I believe that there is no such thing as the supernatural.

No creator god.

What else would you like to know?


Regards
DL

Respond with honesty.

If there is no supernatural (I agree that there isn't) where does the 'Christian' part of your title come from?  I equate gnosis with intuition, so I get that.  You quote the bible often, so where did that come from?  Who or what supplied the writing?  And which bible do you quote from and why?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Anything I say to TRUE BELEIVERS© is for the benefit of the peanut gallery. The TRUE BELEIVERS© don't change their minds any more often than they change their socks and underwear.

[Greatest I am]

Respond with honesty.

If there is no supernatural (I agree that there isn't) where does the 'Christian' part of your title come from?  I equate gnosis with intuition, so I get that.  You quote the bible often, so where did that come from?  Who or what supplied the writing?  And which bible do you quote from and why?

I chose Gnostic Christianity because of it's superior ideology and morality.

It is about the only religion or thinking system I know that is universalist and intelligent in showing it's naturalistic universalist religious worth.

Atheism is my third with agnostics as my second choice.

Atheism is getting closer now that there are atheist churches. I waited years for them to show their moral tribal intelligence.

I read the bible as showing a naturalistic religion, after talking out the mythical drama parts.

That is the only way I could get rid of the problem of evil that the supernatural believers have to deal with, and cannot.

Not while their dogma goes against the bible.

The following Gnostic Christian wisdom of reality is a part of it.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it;  cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said,  "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

  You quote the bible often, so where did that come from?  Who or what supplied the writing?  And which bible do you quote from and why?

The Jews who wrote the bible, wrote it as a discussion paper.

The same applies to the Gnostic Christians with their myths.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Anything I say to TRUE BELEIVERS© is for the benefit of the peanut gallery. The TRUE BELEIVERS© don't change their minds any more often than they change their socks and underwear.

Let me know when you find a true believer here.

I will go chat with him and try to convert him.

Regards
DL

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Let me know when you find a true believer here.

I will go chat with him and try to convert him.

Regards
DL

Did I say "here" anywhere?

[Mike Cl]

The Jews who wrote the bible, wrote it as a discussion paper.

The same applies to the Gnostic Christians with their myths.

The OT was more or less, written that way--discussion paper(s).  The NT was put together differently.  It was, and is, a propaganda piece, compiled and edited over the course of centuries.  Which is the reason for there being dozens or different bibles and the different arrangement of it's books.  Paul, often referred to as Gnostic, being it's first author. 

Myths are interesting.  For a bit I read quite a few of Joseph Campbell's books dealing with that subject.  As it turns out, myth is important in most all societies and have stories and lessons to tell in ways that most can relate to. 

For decades I searched for the spiritual side of life and how to best access it.  I was a member of Unity for almost a decade; served on the church board for over half that time.  I studied church leaders and liked (and still like) many of Charles Fillmore's teachings.  He called the center of each person (intitution)  and called Christ Consciousness and it dwelled deep within each person.  I now call it self awareness.  He also taught using affirmations and I try to use them still--it is basically thinking positive and mind training.  I also came away from my stay with Unity understanding (after much study) that Jesus was a myth and never an actual human or being.  And that god does not exist.  I now call myself (if anybody really wants to know) atheist, because that is what makes the most sense to me when looking at all the data and evidence (or lack of it). 

I find it interesting that you and I probably interface with or society and friends in much the same way.  If one were to view us from afar, I don't think they could tell what our inner ideas/ideals would be.  We do differ in our beliefs; I don't have what one would label 'beliefs' but rely on facts.  For example, I don't say 'I believe the sun will come up tomorrow.'  I would put it as thinking the sun will come up tomorrow based on the fact it has for billions of years and that the phrase 'come up' simply refers to rotation of the Earth in reference to the sun.  I also use 'I don't know' quite a bit and am okay with not knowing.