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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: Jagella on October 07, 2021, 08:29:19 PM

Title: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 07, 2021, 08:29:19 PM
I've been banned many times from Christian-sponsored forums due to my scathing critiques of Christianity in those forums. The Christians there complained bitterly about what I was saying although all of it was true and I think well-reasoned.

Is it wrong to criticize Christians regarding their beliefs? Generally I think not except in cases where the criticism constitutes harassment.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Dark Lightning on October 07, 2021, 09:32:20 PM
Not wrong, but it's kind of like shouting at clouds. I learned a long time ago to not argue with xtians, especially fundies. I know people who will carry the torch, but it's just painful to watch the (sometimes willful) stupidity that the xtians proudly display.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 07, 2021, 09:47:29 PM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on October 07, 2021, 09:32:20 PM
Not wrong, but it's kind of like shouting at clouds. I learned a long time ago to not argue with xtians, especially fundies. I know people who will carry the torch, but it's just painful to watch the (sometimes willful) stupidity that the xtians proudly display.

There's a debate waged among some atheists over the effort to set Christians straight. Some atheists say it's a waste of time, but others say they've succeeded in changing some minds. It could be that the decline in religious belief in the US is at least partly due to the criticisms of religion. Not all Christians mindlessly hide their heads in the sand. I got out of Christianity because when I found its most basic claims are false, I could no longer be part of it.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Shiranu on October 08, 2021, 01:46:39 AM
Forums are like public halls; if you burst into Bible Study Night at the Y and started shouting "scathing critiques" at them, what do you realistically think the outcome would be?

My opinion; it's annoying as hell when people do it here, so I don't care for us doing it to them there. Live and let live.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: SGOS on October 08, 2021, 11:01:58 AM
I don't think that the current US trend away from organized religion has much to do with atheists.  I think it has more to do with Christianity's negative attitude toward things that are now being accepted by much of the mainstream.  The way I read the polls, people are not so much giving up on woo, as they are on the political divisions that arise from organized religion. The Catholic scandals may contribute, but I haven't seen any data.

I think we will continue to see more people who claim to be spiritual, but not ______ (fill in the blank).
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 08, 2021, 12:11:25 PM
Quote from: Jagella on October 07, 2021, 08:29:19 PM
...due to my scathing critiques of Christianity in those forums. ...

Try not being rude.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 12:26:31 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on October 08, 2021, 01:46:39 AM
Forums are like public halls; if you burst into Bible Study Night at the Y and started shouting "scathing critiques" at them, what do you realistically think the outcome would be?

I don't need to speculate because I have criticized the Bible during a Bible study (Sunday school) session. I was not kicked out, and nobody treated me rudely because I had an opinion that didn't agree with that church's orthodoxy. Of course, the outcome might have been different if that session was conducted online in which the participants did not know each other.

Regarding "public halls" in general, when people gather in say, a PTA meeting or townhall meeting, nobody is ejected for being critical of those in power. Everybody is allowed to make their views known. That's the whole point: People are invited to such meetings to allow them to have their say on the issues, and none of them are kicked out if their views are not popular.

So why is mistreating and censoring naysayers suddenly OK if it is done online? Of course, the internet affords most people a certain amount of distance and anonymity, so they are more likely to mistreat naysayers because they can do so with impunity. But in my opinion being able to do something doesn't make it right.

QuoteMy opinion; it's annoying as hell when people do it here, so I don't care for us doing it to them there. Live and let live.

I feel very differently about those who disagree with me online or offline for that matter. Yes, some views can be disturbing especially if I think those views are based on misinformation or are potentially harmful. However, I always have the option of ignoring anything I don't wish to discuss or even read. My computer has a mouse I can use to click out of anything I want to. And if some fire-breathing William-Lane-Craig clone wishes to come into this forum to laud Christianity or denounce atheism, then I'll be more than happy to engage him in debate. I find preaching to the choir to be often pointless and boring.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 12:29:29 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 08, 2021, 12:11:25 PM
Try not being rude.

I think I was very respectful considering the way I was treated. But you are correct--online forums are rife with rudeness. If somebody hits me, then I'm likely to hit back.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Shiranu on October 08, 2021, 12:45:18 PM
QuoteI don't need to speculate because I have criticized the Bible during a Bible study (Sunday school) session. I was not kicked out, and nobody treated me rudely because I had an opinion that didn't agree with that church's orthodoxy.

Different context, you presumably weren't a random stranger who just walked in, no?

QuoteRegarding "public halls" in general, when people gather in say, a PTA meeting or townhall meeting, nobody is ejected for being critical of those in power.

If they are found to be disruptive by the majority, people absolutely are thrown out. There are plenty of youtube videos showing exactly that happen.

QuoteSo why is mistreating and censoring naysayers suddenly OK if it is done online?

Because it's a private forum and they have the right to censor you if they want. To call that "mistreating" is trying to play the victim so hard.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 02:16:18 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on October 08, 2021, 12:45:18 PM
Different context, you presumably weren't a random stranger who just walked in, no?

No, but random strangers who just walked in were never turned away from Sunday school regardless of their beliefs. In fact, I remember a pastor in another church who told the congregation that a man who attended church there the Sunday before had expressed a "strange philosophy." The pastor told the congregation to make such visitors feel welcome.

QuoteIf they are found to be disruptive by the majority, people absolutely are thrown out. There are plenty of youtube videos showing exactly that happen.

You'll need to explain what you mean by disruptive. I've found that the only people in online forums who are truly disruptive are the moderators who can and often do interfere with the dialog by censoring views that are not in line with the agenda.

QuoteBecause it's a private forum and they have the right to censor you if they want.

We'll just have to disagree on that point. The only censorship I think is justified is stopping illegal activity or threats of violence.

QuoteTo call that "mistreating" is trying to play the victim so hard.

Sometimes people are victimized and mistreated. If a person feels they've been victimized, then I think they should by all means report it. If you were assaulted by a man on the street, would it be wrong to tell people about it? If we dissuade people from speaking out, then we perpetuate evils and allow victimizers to get away with their misdeeds with impunity. The victimizers are wrong and not their victims.

Anyway, years ago I had my own online forum. A gang of trolls found it and started harassing me. I never banned them but instead argued my position with them. By doing so I soon sent them packing their being unable to counter what I was saying!

So the moral of the story is to have the facts and be able to argue your position logically. Being in the right is even more important. If you're like that, then you'll never need to censor anybody.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mermaid on October 08, 2021, 02:59:05 PM
Quote from: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 12:29:29 PM
I think I was very respectful considering the way I was treated. But you are correct--online forums are rife with rudeness. If somebody hits me, then I'm likely to hit back.
If you go into someone's territory and act in an adversarial way, the burden is on you to be thick-skinned. It's rude to do what you are saying you've done at best, and of course you'd be banned for being rude.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 08, 2021, 03:53:27 PM
Quote from: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 12:29:29 PM
I think I was very respectful considering the way I was treated. But you are correct--online forums are rife with rudeness. If somebody hits me, then I'm likely to hit back.
I judo them by being the soul of politeness. One good rule is to hit the topic, not the other poster.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 04:21:49 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on October 08, 2021, 02:59:05 PM
If you go into someone's territory and act in an adversarial way, the burden is on you to be thick-skinned. It's rude to do what you are saying you've done at best, and of course you'd be banned for being rude.

I was generally very respectful toward the other members there. I just have my limits as to how much rudeness I will take.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 04:23:06 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 08, 2021, 03:53:27 PM
I judo them by being the soul of politeness. One good rule is to hit the topic, not the other poster.

I did hit the topic. In response I was hit. I hit back.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 08, 2021, 05:05:31 PM
Quote from: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 04:23:06 PM
I did hit the topic. In response I was hit. I hit back.
So, you went down to their level. And gave them the excuse to toss you out. Good moves, Gen. Custer.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 05:44:57 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 08, 2021, 05:05:31 PM
So, you went down to their level. And gave them the excuse to toss you out. Good moves, Gen. Custer.

Actually, I was never told why I was banned. The last time they banned me, I just asked them to change the rules to allow unbelievers greater freedom in that forum. CARM labels the members in their forum and bases what they are allowed to do on those labels. I think Matt Slick got that idea from the Germans.

So why are you in favor of censorship? Do you find free speech objectionable?
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on October 08, 2021, 07:42:07 PM
Christians don't do well here if they pretend to be atheists....I would welcome a truthful xtian for real discussions but they are in very short supply I guess.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on October 08, 2021, 07:48:52 PM
Like any forum, entering with the intention of flame throwing, one gets tossed pretty quickly. We have tolerated many….many religious of several varieties many times for way too long. Some times to the point where our regulars start bitching. But for the most part, I think we have given many far more opportunity than we should have…..but I am okay with that.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 09:28:14 PM
Quote from: Cassia on October 08, 2021, 07:42:07 PM
Christians don't do well here if they pretend to be atheists....I would welcome a truthful xtian for real discussions but they are in very short supply I guess.

If I had my own religious-discussion forum, then the main group of people I'd want there would be fire-breathing Jerry-Falwell types of Christians. Unlike the cowardly Christians who use their nasty little mouse-clicks to remove people from their forums whom they know can easily argue why Christian beliefs are bogus, I've got the balls to debate any Christian on any topic that relates to their religion. Unlike they, I won't run and hide.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 09:30:13 PM
Quote from: aitm on October 08, 2021, 07:48:52 PM
Like any forum, entering with the intention of flame throwing, one gets tossed pretty quickly. We have tolerated many….many religious of several varieties many times for way too long. Some times to the point where our regulars start bitching. But for the most part, I think we have given many far more opportunity than we should have…..but I am okay with that.

I say bring them on! The best thing we can have here is a lot of Christians who should be told the truth.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: SGOS on October 09, 2021, 07:51:11 AM
Quote from: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 09:30:13 PM
I say bring them on! The best thing we can have here is a lot of Christians who should be told the truth.
I think it gets old in a hurry. 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 09, 2021, 08:22:30 AM
Quote from: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 05:44:57 PM
Actually, I was never told why I was banned. The last time they banned me, I just asked them to change the rules to allow unbelievers greater freedom in that forum. CARM labels the members in their forum and bases what they are allowed to do on those labels. I think Matt Slick got that idea from the Germans.

So why are you in favor of censorship? Do you find free speech objectionable?
My personal Rule of So: Whenever a response begins with "So..." it should be checked for a strawman argument.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 09, 2021, 08:23:44 AM
Quote from: SGOS on October 09, 2021, 07:51:11 AM
I think it gets old in a hurry. 
Yep. I have hordes of hillbilly cousins who haven't changed their minds about anything since they were housebroken.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mermaid on October 09, 2021, 11:51:56 AM
Quote from: Jagella on October 08, 2021, 04:21:49 PM
I was generally very respectful toward the other members there. I just have my limits as to how much rudeness I will take.
I think joining a group of people explicitly to argue and try to discredit their beliefs is fundamentally disrespectful. Did you join just to engage in argument and explain why you are right and they are wrong?
Or did you join to listen to them about their beliefs and ask questions?

Sorry, you don't get any sympathy from me, that's just not ok. You can do as you wish, but don't expect different results. That's just how the world is. I strongly recommend you choose your battles more wisely if this sort of thing has you feeling put out.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on October 09, 2021, 12:11:10 PM
Quote from: Jagella on October 07, 2021, 08:29:19 PMI've been banned many times from Christian-sponsored forums due to my scathing critiques of Christianity in those forums. The Christians there complained bitterly about what I was saying although all of it was true and I think well-reasoned.

Is it wrong to criticize Christians regarding their beliefs? Generally I think not except in cases where the criticism constitutes harassment.
Generally speaking, I think one should be respectful of the forum regulars and not say things that you know will antagonize them.  Although, I have noticed an odd conflation of disagreement with disrespect - especially on religion boards - which is troubling.  Imho, a certain level of conversational intolerance (openly questioning questionable assertions) is warranted.

And while I have no problem with boards moderating themselves to remove disruptive or toxic behavior to keep the noise-to-signal ratio low, I've seen boards so sanitized and ideologically lockstep that it's downright creepy.

So I guess you could say my point is...*looks around for it*  *searches under the couch cushions*
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 09, 2021, 05:49:28 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on October 09, 2021, 11:51:56 AM
I think joining a group of people explicitly to argue and try to discredit their beliefs is fundamentally disrespectful.

Would you say it's disrespectful to argue with the Ku Klux Klan or with Neo-Nazis? Would it be wrong to discredit their beliefs explaining that black people and Jews are not truly inferior? In my case I argued that people who are not Christians are not morally inferior to Christians and are basically good. In particular, I said that women are not inferior and that homosexuals are not bad people. Are you telling me I was wrong to do so?

Anyway, although my motive in joining the boards at CARM is irrelevant to my right to be there, allow me to say that my goal was to debate Christian apologetics there. Matt Slick, the founder of CARM, has said that he loves to debate atheists. "Bring them on," he has said on YouTube. I considered that an invitation.

QuoteDid you join just to engage in argument and explain why you are right and they are wrong?

Basically yes, but it was more than that. I wanted them to know that their beliefs can lead to people being hurt, and in particular I wanted them to know that their beliefs have resulted in my being hurt. I was physically, emotionally, and sexually abused by Christians who when doing so were obviously inspired by their beliefs to do so. It got so bad that at one point I attempted to take my own life.

QuoteOr did you join to listen to them about their beliefs and ask questions?

I did plenty of that although they dodged most of my questions. None of them showed any concern for any of the people I told them were hurt including me.

QuoteSorry, you don't get any sympathy from me, that's just not ok. You can do as you wish, but don't expect different results. That's just how the world is. I strongly recommend you choose your battles more wisely if this sort of thing has you feeling put out.

I don't want your sympathy. I want people to face the truth especially the truth of what they're doing to other people. Although I find your attitude toward this issue to be very depressing, I honestly can't completely disagree with it. We do indeed live in a world where some people to evil, and other people won't do anything about it. I understand that in Hitler's Germany most of the German people turned a blind eye to what was being done to the Jews there. They claimed they knew nothing about it even though the smoke from the death-camp ovens wafted into nearby towns. They didn't want to get involved. They didn't wish to rock the boat. They wanted to choose their battles wisely.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mermaid on October 09, 2021, 07:50:39 PM
Oh for fucks' sake. You're comparing Christianity to Hitler? You feel the need to speak out against it to save the world from evil?

I loathe being proselytized to. Your joining that forum to tell people the error of their ways is absolutely no different. It's obnoxious and disrespectful. I am 58 and kind of over peoples' shit, so maybe that will help you put things into perspective.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: PickelledEggs on October 09, 2021, 08:45:33 PM
You're a free person to say what you like. Doesn't mean they're going to take it well. Any time someone's world view is challenged, be prepared for blowback. Not just for religious people, because this is a human trait.

Wrong? No. Productive? Possibly not, but not impossible. As long as they aren't actually hurting anyone, why do you care?

I'm assuming you're new to atheism, hence the over-the-top hostility towards religion.  Not all religious people are like Hitler or the Westboro Baptist Church. In fact, most are not like them.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: PickelledEggs on October 09, 2021, 08:46:45 PM
That said, if you came in here trying to sell us on religios views, we'd probably ban you instantly. Similarly, don't be surprised if you go to a religious community and get shit on for disrespecting their dynamic.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 09, 2021, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on October 09, 2021, 07:50:39 PM
Oh for fucks' sake. You're comparing Christianity to Hitler? You feel the need to speak out against it to save the world from evil?

I loathe being proselytized to. Your joining that forum to tell people the error of their ways is absolutely no different. It's obnoxious and disrespectful. I am 58 and kind of over peoples' shit, so maybe that will help you put things into perspective.

Hmmm. I always saw forums for debate and exchanging ideas. But it looks like they're more of a coffee klatch for many people.

And I'd recommend you check out the Nazi-Christian connection because some Christian apologists are equating atheism and Nazism.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 09, 2021, 09:45:10 PM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on October 09, 2021, 08:46:45 PM
That said, if you came in here trying to sell us on religios views, we'd probably ban you instantly. Similarly, don't be surprised if you go to a religious community and get shit on for disrespecting their dynamic.

Really? And here I thought that atheists are openminded. I'll just have to look into starting my own forum. I'll make it free and open to everybody: Christian, atheist, and Hare Krishna. I'll let people go in and mix it up making whatever argument they want to make respecting their freedom of speech.

What can I say? I hate censorship and love free speech.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Shiranu on October 09, 2021, 09:49:34 PM
I would throw the sound of your own voice in there as well...
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on October 09, 2021, 10:14:20 PM
Jagella, you need to understand, before you get upset with us, is we have been here for years, many of us for more  than a decade. We have heard every argument, we have heard every atheist argument as well…what is new for you to hear is old hat to us. Some of us even get tired of newbies reciting their points that we have heard a hundred times. But we try to be supportive of their new found belief and offer our insight, but even we get a bit bored with the same recital of the same verse we found strange 20 years ago. So understand while we support the idea of atheism we also get tired of pointing out stuff we have understood for many years. Don’t get offensive…we already did that for you.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 09, 2021, 10:39:22 PM
Quote from: aitm on October 09, 2021, 10:14:20 PM
Jagella, you need to understand, before you get upset with us, is we have been here for years, many of us for more  than a decade. We have heard every argument, we have heard every atheist argument as well…what is new for you to hear is old hat to us. Some of us even get tired of newbies reciting their points that we have heard a hundred times. But we try to be supportive of their new found belief and offer our insight, but even we get a bit bored with the same recital of the same verse we found strange 20 years ago. So understand while we support the idea of atheism we also get tired of pointing out stuff we have understood for many years. Don’t get offensive…we already did that for you.

I've often wondered if there are legal requirements regarding online forums, and that's why forums always have those stifling rules.

Anyway, if I want to silence somebody, my approach is to demonstrate how they're wrong. It's worked for me innumerable times.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: PickelledEggs on October 09, 2021, 11:02:56 PM
Quote from: Jagella on October 09, 2021, 09:37:17 PM
Hmmm. I always saw forums for debate and exchanging ideas. But it looks like they're more of a coffee klatch for many people.

And I'd recommend you check out the Nazi-Christian connection because some Christian apologists are equating atheism and Nazism.
Some are just exclusive communities for support.
I didn't join a Scion forum to debate whether or not my tC was a good car or not. I joined it to have a support network, in case I wanted to fix or improve it. This community is somewhat like that, in that many people join to find community, especially with something as ostracizing as being an atheist can be. The fact that we are also inclusive of marginalized groups like people of color and the LGBTQ+ communities is another reason people would join here and call it home. We aren't all here to debate with an X-tian, although we do enjoy an occasional chewtoy to roughouse.

This is the internet. You can do what you want and you'll relatively get by unscathed by concequences, like you otherwise would if you were to strike an argument on the street with some random person wearing a crucifix. You aren't going to be punched in the face for derailing someone's day with an argument they aren't interested in having.

Consent is the issue here. If you were to go to a resturaunt with your spouse and children and all of a sudden bunch of pornstars just started fucking in the middle of the room for a recording, they'd get arrested and charged as a sex offender. It wasn't consented by the people or the setting.

You're doing the same to a lot of people. There is better, more effective uses of your time and energy that doesn't essentially equate you to the kind of person that goes to funeral homes and screams at everyone "HE ISN'T IN HEAVEN BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST"

You're an asshole, even though you think you're right. You're allowed to be an asshole, but they're allowed to ban you for going against their conduct. You probably didn't even read the rules for the site. I can bet it says to not proselytize to them, in one form or another. I'm not even sure they would know what that word means, but I can bet all the money that they have a clause in their rules that addresses that and says for members to NOT do that. In the same way I would ban a religious person for doing that here, they can do that there.

Don't come whining to us that your crusade got shot down by basic social dynamics that you aren't even trying to understand.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: PickelledEggs on October 09, 2021, 11:08:33 PM
Quote from: Jagella on October 09, 2021, 10:39:22 PM
I've often wondered if there are legal requirements regarding online forums, and that's why forums always have those stifling rules.

Anyway, if I want to silence somebody, my approach is to demonstrate how they're wrong. It's worked for me innumerable times.
Then make your own platform and take a course on government. It seems you might not fully understand how it works.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on October 09, 2021, 11:10:29 PM
People make all sorts of assumptions about each other in real life. I think people are genuinely disappointed when they learn I am an unholy unbeliever who will not play in their worship band. Somehow they still like me. Then and only then....I might give them a "zinger" or two to maybe think about. That is almost impossible to do online.

Once in a great while someone will actually ask me why. That is usually someone who is having their own doubts. Then I hit them with the real deal....all the stuff they never learned in a pew. That's how it happened to me. I was ready and looking to substantiate my issues with the whole religion thing.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 09, 2021, 11:12:57 PM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on October 09, 2021, 11:02:56 PM

You're an asshole...

OK, that's it. I'm out.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Shiranu on October 09, 2021, 11:29:49 PM
Bye have a good time.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: PickelledEggs on October 10, 2021, 11:21:21 AM
Quote from: Jagella on October 09, 2021, 11:12:57 PM
OK, that's it. I'm out.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Come back when you grow up.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: PickelledEggs on October 10, 2021, 11:23:17 AM
Acts like an asshole and gets offended when we don't validate him. Haven't seen that one before...  :what:
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Shiranu on October 10, 2021, 01:28:54 PM
Big Karen energy from him.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Jagella on October 23, 2021, 10:45:53 PM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on October 10, 2021, 11:21:21 AM
Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Come back when you grow up.

Hi Mr. Maturity. Did you thank the kids on the playground for telling you what mean name to call me? In any case, I see there's no activity in this subsection. It's really boring for atheists to sit around telling each other there's no God.

Yawn!
(https://merriam-webster.com/assets/ld/word_of_the_day/images/2468/large.jpg)
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Shiranu on October 23, 2021, 11:12:22 PM
Welcome back.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on October 23, 2021, 11:34:59 PM
Quote from: Jagella on October 23, 2021, 10:45:53 PMHi Mr. Maturity. Did you thank the kids on the playground for telling you what mean name to call me? In any case, I see there's no activity in this subsection. It's really boring for atheists to sit around telling each other there's no God.
Do me a favor, check out the 10 most recently active threads and tell me how many of them are about debating God's existence.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: PickelledEggs on October 24, 2021, 01:30:59 AM
Quote from: Jagella on October 23, 2021, 10:45:53 PM
Hi Mr. Maturity. Did you thank the kids on the playground for telling you what mean name to call me? In any case, I see there's no activity in this subsection. It's really boring for atheists to sit around telling each other there's no God.

Yawn!
(https://merriam-webster.com/assets/ld/word_of_the_day/images/2468/large.jpg)
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Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 28, 2021, 04:02:03 PM
Quote from: Jagella on October 07, 2021, 08:29:19 PM
I've been banned many times from Christian-sponsored forums due to my scathing critiques of Christianity in those forums. The Christians there complained bitterly about what I was saying although all of it was true and I think well-reasoned.

Is it wrong to criticize Christians regarding their beliefs? Generally I think not except in cases where the criticism constitutes harassment.

I think it would be wrong not to, if speaking to moral issues.

It is a moral person's duty to correct poor thinking.

We would likely still be living in tree and caves if we did not correct each other and force society to fly right.

I follow this biblical thinking

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Atheists, having the moral high ground, should be shining upon the religious in the low ground.

It is the duty of atheist to be more militant and fight the homophobia and misogyny that religions target your family and friends with.

Your atheist churches are a good start, but duty demand more.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on November 28, 2021, 04:59:44 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 28, 2021, 04:02:03 PMAtheists, having the moral high ground, should be shining upon the religious in the low ground.
Ehhh...how about we all meet together in the middle ground?

QuoteYour atheist churches are a good start, but duty demand more.
I don't know what you're referring to, and atheist churches are already a pretty controversial thing.  At best, they're a place of fellowship and community for people who really want that without the religious aspect of churches.  But they can also rub people the wrong way for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Draconic Aiur on November 28, 2021, 05:24:44 PM
Apparently the fact that you exist as an atheist is wrong to Christians and you should never tell anyone your an atheist because your very existence is a threat to Christianity views.

When your family says that to your face.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 28, 2021, 05:47:45 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on November 28, 2021, 04:59:44 PM
Ehhh...how about we all meet together in the middle ground?
I don't know what you're referring to, and atheist churches are already a pretty controversial thing.  At best, they're a place of fellowship and community for people who really want that without the religious aspect of churches.  But they can also rub people the wrong way for obvious reasons.

I know of no middle ground for supernatural belief and non-supernatural belief, except for Gnostic Christianity.

I only say that last because I know it leads to a better morality than both sides.

I also know of no middle ground for homophobia and misogyny, religious staples.

I hope you can prove me wrong on both of those my friend. I love to learn of my mistakes, if mistakes.

Few are willing to be esoteric ecumenists and naturalists. Few recognize reality, yet all are cock sure that their reality is the right one.

In terms of ideas, -----
https://www.google.ca/search?q=everybody+wants+to+rule+the+world&sxsrf=AOaemvI6ve6BzHAbQpZOaOZr1Lu6pme9Ug%3A1638138956906&source=hp&ei=TASkYZPvNIfbrgSi1aToBw&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYaQSXN5FUZF5AP8m6SKMTeD9_DC9P_BD&gs_ssp=eJzj4tFP1zcsNM3KzirLsDBg9FJMLUstqkzKT6lUKE_MKylWKMlXKCrNSVUoyUhVKM8vykkBAJ7-EU4&oq=everybody&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADIECC4QJzILCC4QgAQQsQMQgwEyBQguEIAEMgsILhCABBCxAxCDATIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMggILhCABBCxAzIICC4QgAQQsQMyCwguEIAEELEDEIMBMggILhCABBCxAzoECCMQJzoICAAQgAQQsQM6CAguELEDEIMBOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoLCC4QgAQQxwEQ0QM6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBENEDOggIABCxAxCDAToOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQrwFQAFjIGWDUOWgAcAB4AIABtwGIAewHkgEDNS40mAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

I see no controversy around Atheist Churches.

Can you elaborate on your last?

Regards
DL




Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 28, 2021, 05:52:50 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on November 28, 2021, 05:24:44 PM
Apparently the fact that you exist as an atheist is wrong to Christians and you should never tell anyone your an atheist because your very existence is a threat to Christianity views.

When your family says that to your face.

I understand the situation but fail to see the problem.

Acknowledge that they are correct, and proceed to show them why you have taken the higher moral ground.

You owe your family the truth, that any religion that tells a family to hate one of their own for being gay, or just a second class female, has to be a satanic religion.

Step up and shine above your dim family.

It is your duty.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: the_antithesis on November 28, 2021, 05:57:36 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 28, 2021, 04:02:03 PM
It is a moral person's duty to correct poor thinking.
Fuck that.

QuoteAtheists, having the moral high ground, should be shining upon the religious in the low ground.
Fuck that, too.

QuoteIt is the duty of atheist to ...

Fuck that twice on Sundays.

Being an atheist don't mean anything except not believing this god bullshit. All of that other shit comes from other aspects, just like it does in christians. They just like to pretend otherwise.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 28, 2021, 06:02:03 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on October 08, 2021, 01:46:39 AM
Forums are like public halls; if you burst into Bible Study Night at the Y and started shouting "scathing critiques" at them, what do you realistically think the outcome would be?

My opinion; it's annoying as hell when people do it here, so I don't care for us doing it to them there. Live and let live.

For evil to grow, etc. trumps your live and let live.

Only immoral people will not fight against religious evils like homophobia and misogyny that effects their own family lines.

Regards
DL


Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 28, 2021, 06:39:59 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 28, 2021, 04:02:03 PM
I think it would be wrong not to, if speaking to moral issues.

It is a moral person's duty to correct poor thinking.


Your atheist churches are a good start, but duty demand more.



What 'atheist churches'????  And what are 'morals'??
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on November 28, 2021, 08:47:42 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 28, 2021, 05:47:45 PM
I know of no middle ground for supernatural belief and non-supernatural belief
I was referring to the metaphorical moral high ground.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 28, 2021, 09:24:50 PM
Okay, Greatest.  This is my stance.  There are no atheist churches and never have existed.  And there are no universal morals, never was and never will be.  And the only thing atheists have in common is none believe/think god exists; at least they share the idea that there is not evidence, then or now, that demonstrates that any god or gods are real.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on November 28, 2021, 09:56:45 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 28, 2021, 09:24:50 PM
Okay, Greatest.  This is my stance.  There are no atheist churches and never have existed.
I mean, they do exist (https://seattleatheist.church/).  So he's referring to a real thing.  It's not a particularly common thing, but it is a thing.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 28, 2021, 11:32:59 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on November 28, 2021, 09:56:45 PM
I mean, they do exist (https://seattleatheist.church/).  So he's referring to a real thing.  It's not a particularly common thing, but it is a thing.
I guess.  But it is a bad idea.  Why?  Because so many people want to tell us that atheism is simply another 'ism' and just a different set of beliefs.  The title 'church' gives that impression. 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on November 28, 2021, 11:44:47 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 28, 2021, 11:32:59 PMI guess.  But it is a bad idea.  Why?  Because so many people want to tell us that atheism is simply another 'ism' and just a different set of beliefs.  The title 'church' gives that impression.
Precisely my objection as well.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on November 29, 2021, 06:42:06 PM
I can tell someone why their godbuddy ain't real without mentioning atheism. Lots of religions say other people's gods aren't real.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 28, 2021, 06:39:59 PM
What 'atheist churches'????  And what are 'morals'??

Google and a dictionary will help you define those.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:07:22 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on November 28, 2021, 08:47:42 PM
I was referring to the metaphorical moral high ground.

Do you believe in supernatural or metaphysical concepts?

The laws in heaven can never be the same as here.

You know why.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:18:41 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 28, 2021, 09:24:50 PM
Okay, Greatest.  This is my stance.  There are no atheist churches and never have existed.  And there are no universal morals, never was and never will be.  And the only thing atheists have in common is none believe/think god exists; at least they share the idea that there is not evidence, then or now, that demonstrates that any god or gods are real.

Remain ignorant, or not.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=atheist+church&sxsrf=AOaemvIqmF_gNs9Y_lgcfmUr5BMQ3CMsWA%3A1638234513570&source=hp&ei=kXmlYc2SIO6ejLsP5qmMyA0&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYaWHofopPZHTPIqwVIOEkSJ8qDxc5_E0&ved=0ahUKEwiNn_OR8770AhVuD2MBHeYUA9kQ4dUDCAk&uact=5&oq=atheist+church&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIICAAQgAQQyQMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEOgoILhDHARDRAxAnOgQIABBDOgQILhBDOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBENEDOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARCjAjoOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQowI6BwgAELEDEEM6CAgAEIAEELEDOgwIABCxAxBDEEYQ-QE6CwguEIAEELEDEIMBOgsILhCABBDHARCvAVAAWL0bYLUqaABwAHgAgAG8AogB6g-SAQc1LjYuMi4xmAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

The intelligent non-believers, or those seeking better morals, will know the importance of atheist churches.

If your atheist friends can't tell you, ask a Gnostic Christian or other intelligent person.

I like survival of the fittest as our human one, if we can call our programming a moral code, which we can and thus can say that in normal humans, there is a universal moral code.

It is based on selfishness.

Let me posit that now as a universal moral code.

If you disagree, find a species that is alive after trying the survival of the least fit.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:24:47 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 29, 2021, 06:42:06 PM
I can tell someone why their godbuddy ain't real without mentioning atheism. Lots of religions say other people's gods aren't real.

Mention it or not, you are likely branded an atheist or heathen etc.

I try to ignore the useless god debates and try to get morals discussed.

At least in those, if a religious actually steps up, can have an end game.

It happens a lot easier in real life than on the net of lies that bring out our bullish sides.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on November 29, 2021, 09:21:55 PM
Is Believing In God Evolutionarily Advantageous?
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129528196

I think believing in bullshit is natural to our species. We have to evolve our way out of it. That could take thousands of years and cost millions of lives, but it will eventually happen.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on November 29, 2021, 10:28:34 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:07:22 PMDo you believe in supernatural or metaphysical concepts?
Nope.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on November 29, 2021, 10:45:50 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:24:47 PMMention it or not, you are likely branded an atheist or heathen etc.

I try to ignore the useless god debates and try to get morals discussed.
Ok.  Let's discuss morality.

My morality is essentially secular humanism with dash of Epicurean hedonism.

Essentially, I want to maximize human wellbeing and I try to act in a way so as to not inflict harm and also to engender human flourishing.  So I'm going to be against say, bombing a country 20 years fruitlessly, torturing people, gay conversion therapy, etc and I'm going to be in favor of science education and research, protecting natural habitats (among the many reasons to do so, so humans can enjoy them), wiping out malaria, etc.

Theists generally come at this from a totally different angle, but the good ones generally also espouse some sort of humanistic ethical framework.  So we're not totally opposed.  In fact, I'd bet that most if not all of these positions would be popular among the faithful as well as atheists, albeit for different reasons.

So riddle me this, where and why does this supposed moral high ground (implying a moral low ground) come into play?
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on November 30, 2021, 06:28:10 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:24:47 PM
Mention it or not, you are likely branded an atheist or heathen etc.

Ed Zachery! The heathens of the Southern US and the heathens of southern California, no difference to the fanatic believer.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 10:05:56 AM
Quote from: Cassia on November 29, 2021, 09:21:55 PM
Is Believing In God Evolutionarily Advantageous?
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129528196

I think believing in bullshit is natural to our species. We have to evolve our way out of it. That could take thousands of years and cost millions of lives, but it will eventually happen.

I agree that when a person becomes an adult, he will put away the things of children, like the supernatural.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 10:11:17 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on November 29, 2021, 10:45:50 PM
Ok.  Let's discuss morality.

My morality is essentially secular humanism with dash of Epicurean hedonism.

Essentially, I want to maximize human wellbeing and I try to act in a way so as to not inflict harm and also to engender human flourishing.  So I'm going to be against say, bombing a country 20 years fruitlessly, torturing people, gay conversion therapy, etc and I'm going to be in favor of science education and research, protecting natural habitats (among the many reasons to do so, so humans can enjoy them), wiping out malaria, etc.

Theists generally come at this from a totally different angle, but the good ones generally also espouse some sort of humanistic ethical framework.  So we're not totally opposed.  In fact, I'd bet that most if not all of these positions would be popular among the faithful as well as atheists, albeit for different reasons.

So riddle me this, where and why does this supposed moral high ground (implying a moral low ground) come into play?

Many places, like your own post, that shows the better atheist morality as compared to homophobes an misogynous religious people.

That would include atheist churches and their better morals.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 10:12:09 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 30, 2021, 06:28:10 AM
Ed Zachery! The heathens of the Southern US and the heathens of southern California, no difference to the fanatic believer.

Not familiar, sorry.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 30, 2021, 10:47:57 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 29, 2021, 08:18:41 PM
Remain ignorant, or not.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=atheist+church&sxsrf=AOaemvIqmF_gNs9Y_lgcfmUr5BMQ3CMsWA%3A1638234513570&source=hp&ei=kXmlYc2SIO6ejLsP5qmMyA0&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYaWHofopPZHTPIqwVIOEkSJ8qDxc5_E0&ved=0ahUKEwiNn_OR8770AhVuD2MBHeYUA9kQ4dUDCAk&uact=5&oq=atheist+church&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIICAAQgAQQyQMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEOgoILhDHARDRAxAnOgQIABBDOgQILhBDOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBENEDOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARCjAjoOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQowI6BwgAELEDEEM6CAgAEIAEELEDOgwIABCxAxBDEEYQ-QE6CwguEIAEELEDEIMBOgsILhCABBDHARCvAVAAWL0bYLUqaABwAHgAgAG8AogB6g-SAQc1LjYuMi4xmAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

The intelligent non-believers, or those seeking better morals, will know the importance of atheist churches.

If your atheist friends can't tell you, ask a Gnostic Christian or other intelligent person.

I like survival of the fittest as our human one, if we can call our programming a moral code, which we can and thus can say that in normal humans, there is a universal moral code.

It is based on selfishness.

Let me posit that now as a universal moral code.

If you disagree, find a species that is alive after trying the survival of the least fit.

Regards
DL
I don't have a 'moral' code , but a personal code of conduct.  My personal motto is something like this; treat others as you want to be treated and first, do no harm.  Try to make oneself better and make the world a better place.  (Of course, 'better' can be in the eyes of the beholder.)  Morals and ethics are good to talk about, but they derive from the society as a whole.  Morals and ethics change according to the culture one is referring to.  I have yet to find a universal 'moral' that is found in every civilization/culture. 

Survival of the fittest does not equate to survival of the strongest.  It means those that use the means at hand to survive and thrive will do best.  It has to do with being adaptable. 

Selfishness is an interesting topic.  If looked at in a certain way, everything we do is selfish.  Even when someone is being selfless, one could say they are acting that way because it makes them feel good, which can be said to be selfish.  I think we all try to do those things that are beneficial to us and I strive to do things that benefit others, as well.  This is a topic that can nuanced to death; but I do think selfishness is a driving force in all of use to one extent or another.  It falls in line with the idea that in order to love others, one must love oneself first. 

BTW, I do not consider Gnostic Christians as being either particularly intelligent nor moral or ethical. 

As far as being ignorant about the existence of atheist churches, I was.  But not now.  I am ignorant about all kinds of things.  Only one way to fix that and that is to learn.  This board is good for that--learning.  But I still don't like the idea much. 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 11:48:19 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 30, 2021, 10:47:57 AM
I don't have a 'moral' code , but a personal code of conduct.  My personal motto is something like this; treat others as you want to be treated and first, do no harm.  Try to make oneself better and make the world a better place.  (Of course, 'better' can be in the eyes of the beholder.)  Morals and ethics are good to talk about, but they derive from the society as a whole.  Morals and ethics change according to the culture one is referring to.  I have yet to find a universal 'moral' that is found in every civilization/culture. 

Survival of the fittest does not equate to survival of the strongest.  It means those that use the means at hand to survive and thrive will do best.  It has to do with being adaptable. 

Selfishness is an interesting topic.  If looked at in a certain way, everything we do is selfish.  Even when someone is being selfless, one could say they are acting that way because it makes them feel good, which can be said to be selfish.  I think we all try to do those things that are beneficial to us and I strive to do things that benefit others, as well.  This is a topic that can nuanced to death; but I do think selfishness is a driving force in all of use to one extent or another.  It falls in line with the idea that in order to love others, one must love oneself first. 

BTW, I do not consider Gnostic Christians as being either particularly intelligent nor moral or ethical. 

As far as being ignorant about the existence of atheist churches, I was.  But not now.  I am ignorant about all kinds of things.  Only one way to fix that and that is to learn.  This board is good for that--learning.  But I still don't like the idea much. 

A moral code, is the same as a personal code of conduct. IMO.

As to the morality of Gnostic Christians as compared to Christians, do you find Christian homophobes and misogynous to be more moral than those Gnostic Christians who do not discriminate against women and gays without a just cause?

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Docillinois on November 30, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
Quote from: Cassia on November 29, 2021, 09:21:55 PM
Is Believing In God Evolutionarily Advantageous?
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129528196

I think believing in bullshit is natural to our species. We have to evolve our way out of it. That could take thousands of years and cost millions of lives, but it will eventually happen.

In my experience and observation, bullshit is inherent to the human species, to say nothing of superstition and stupidity.

Challenges to these things are inherent also, though, and inevitable. 

What would be the source of genuine progress and clarity in any serious area of life or society without the product of conflict between these two?     

Only in open conflict with the wrong may the right be properly justified, to borrow from Milton.

 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 03:51:15 PM
Quote from: Docillinois on November 30, 2021, 03:36:56 PM
In my experience and observation, bullshit is inherent to the human species, to say nothing of superstition and stupidity.

Challenges to these things are inherent also, though, and inevitable. 

What would be the source of genuine progress and clarity in any serious area of life or society without the product of conflict between these two?     

Only in open conflict with the wrong may the right be properly justified, to borrow from Milton.

 

How do we light a fire under slow go atheists, --- and the intelligentsia,--- and end the tyranny and farce of the vile god religions?

Hiding un-belief is over in most free countries.

It is time for atheists to show their better moral worth and go into mental inquisition mode against those who are slowing social progress. The religious and political right wing.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: the_antithesis on November 30, 2021, 04:43:49 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 03:51:15 PM

It is time for atheists to show their better moral worth ...

Stop harping on this bullshit.

There are plenty of atheist child molesters.

Belief in deities and morality are two separate, unrelated topics.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 05:16:43 PM
Quote from: the_antithesis on November 30, 2021, 04:43:49 PM
Stop harping on this bullshit.

There are plenty of atheist child molesters.

Belief in deities and morality are two separate, unrelated topics.

The homophobia and misogyny that threatens all families, including yours, is generated by our mainstream garbage religions.

Ignore that all you like.

I will not.

For evil to grow and all that.

Yes, there are many a hole atheists, but statistically a lot fewer that a hole religionists.

Check the stats any time, and encourage the brighter to shine on the morally dim.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: GSOgymrat on November 30, 2021, 05:34:13 PM
Whether an action is moral is based on intention, action and consequences. If belief in God, or lack of belief, motivates a person to want to help others, take actions that help others, and results in people being helped then it's good. If someone's belief in God results in negative consequences, it's bad. What people profess to believe or not believe does not make one morally superior.

FYI, today is Giving Tuesday and many charitable organizations are receiving matching donations from businesses for individual contributions. Pick your favorite charity and take an action that results in positive consequences.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: the_antithesis on November 30, 2021, 10:36:50 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 05:16:43 PM
The homophobia and misogyny that threatens all families, including yours, is generated by our mainstream garbage religions.

Ignore that all you like.

I will not.

Yes you are.

You're shitposting on an internet forum instead of doing that good you keep banging on about.

And quit with the buzzwords.

Unless you plan to buzz off. That would be fine.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on November 30, 2021, 10:51:22 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 10:11:17 AM
Many places, like your own post, that shows the better atheist morality as compared to homophobes an misogynous religious people.

That would include atheist churches and their better morals.

Regards
DL
(https://edge.alluremedia.com.au/m/g/2016/12/arrival.jpg)
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on December 01, 2021, 07:52:06 AM
Reality cannot overcome superstition in the mind of those who are already convinced, because reality offers no reward while superstition is awash with them.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 01, 2021, 08:24:20 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 11:48:19 AM
A moral code, is the same as a personal code of conduct. IMO.

As to the morality of Gnostic Christians as compared to Christians, do you find Christian homophobes and misogynous to be more moral than those Gnostic Christians who do not discriminate against women and gays without a just cause?

Regards
DL
Gnostic christians are neither more nor less moral than any other christian.  But then, I don't consider any christian moral.  If some christians do act 'moral' (actually hate suing that word for it is almost meaningless--totally in the eye of the beholder) it is because they overcame their religion, not because of their of their religion. 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:11:49 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 30, 2021, 05:34:13 PM
Whether an action is moral is based on intention, action and consequences. If belief in God, or lack of belief, motivates a person to want to help others, take actions that help others, and results in people being helped then it's good. If someone's belief in God results in negative consequences, it's bad. What people profess to believe or not believe does not make one morally superior.


Overall, good thinking.

On that last sentence though, I disagree.

Christians believe and practice homophobia and misogyny while adoring a genocidal god.

Gnostic Christians do not discriminate against gays and women without a just cause, and we have basically condemned Yahweh to hell. Not that that exists.

Which view is morally superior?

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:16:13 AM
Quote from: the_antithesis on November 30, 2021, 10:36:50 PM
Yes you are.


Emotion induced communication breakdown.

I am what?

I did not ask anything to prompt your reply, stupid.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:22:04 AM
Quote from: aitm on December 01, 2021, 07:52:06 AM
Reality cannot overcome superstition in the mind of those who are already convinced, because reality offers no reward while superstition is awash with them.

Most live by facts and not fantasy, although there is no argument that religions are used for the entertainment value you posit.

Remember that 90+ % of those in the fantasy religions, when push comes to shove, lose the fantasy quite quickly.

Most are in it for tradition and community. Most are not the right wing loonies.

Have you argued with a J W?

Making a fantasy lover back peddle is as easy as teaching children common sense.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:27:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 01, 2021, 08:24:20 AM
Gnostic christians are neither more nor less moral than any other christian.  But then, I don't consider any christian moral.  If some christians do act 'moral' (actually hate suing that word for it is almost meaningless--totally in the eye of the beholder) it is because they overcame their religion, not because of their of their religion. 

Untrue, because we would all act differently if not a part of a tribe or group.

You cannot divorce religion from culture and tradition, --- as most follow a tradition for the fellowship, --- regardless of the label used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: the_antithesis on December 01, 2021, 11:30:19 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:16:13 AM
Emotion induced communication breakdown.


You were never communicating. You were preaching. I do not who you are or what you believe, that makes you dead to me.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:31:06 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 01, 2021, 08:24:20 AM
Gnostic christians are neither more nor less moral than any other christian.

Fail on moral thinking by a long shot.

Care to argue for homophobia and misogyny?

Perhaps discrimination without a just cause is a good thing.

Make your case.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:32:32 AM
Quote from: the_antithesis on December 01, 2021, 11:30:19 AM
You were never communicating. You were preaching. I do not who you are or what you believe, that makes you dead to me.

I showed how you were not communicating, and you did it again here by ignoring your first stupidity.

Go away, moral midget.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: PickelledEggs on December 01, 2021, 10:10:17 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:32:32 AM
Go away, moral midget.

Regards
DL
Wow. You really came out of the woodwork and came out swinging, didn't you.
Care to explain your flaming attitude?
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 01, 2021, 10:48:13 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 10:05:56 AM
I agree that when a person becomes an adult, he will put away the things of children, like the supernatural.

Regards
DL


I did that the first (and last) time I went to Sunday School. Asked awkward questions about where Noah's boys got their wives.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 02, 2021, 09:16:38 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 01, 2021, 11:31:06 AM
Fail on moral thinking by a long shot.

Care to argue for homophobia and misogyny

You have yet to share with me what you believe 'morals' to be.  So how can I fail on something when I am not aware of what you think I failed at? 

When have I ever mentioned  that I thought homophobia and misogyny was good? 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 02, 2021, 10:38:08 AM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on December 01, 2021, 10:10:17 PM
Wow. You really came out of the woodwork and came out swinging, didn't you.
Care to explain your flaming attitude?

I do not suffer fools well.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 02, 2021, 10:39:14 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 01, 2021, 10:48:13 PM
I did that the first (and last) time I went to Sunday School. Asked awkward questions about where Noah's boys got their wives.

Incest is best, I hear.

Yuk.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 02, 2021, 10:41:06 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 02, 2021, 09:16:38 AM
You have yet to share with me what you believe 'morals' to be.  So how can I fail on something when I am not aware of what you think I failed at? 

When have I ever mentioned  that I thought homophobia and misogyny was good? 

The dictionary definition of morals suits me fine.

I do not want to invent a new definition.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 02, 2021, 02:01:35 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 02, 2021, 10:41:06 AM
The dictionary definition of morals suits me fine.

I do not want to invent a new definition.

Regards
DL
--(morals)
a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do.

--Full Definition of moral (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL
moral judgments
b: expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior
a moral poem
c: conforming to a standard of right behavior
took a moral position on the issue though it cost him the nomination
d: sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment
a moral obligation
e: capable of right and wrong action
a moral agent

--Morality (from Latin: moralitas, lit. 'manner, character, proper behavior') is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper (right) and those that are improper (wrong), and it’s a construct of justice.[1] Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion or culture, or it can derive from a standard that a person believes should be universal.[2] Morality may also be specifically synonymous with "goodness" or "rightness".

Moral philosophy includes meta-ethics, which studies abstract issues such as moral ontology and moral epistemology, and normative ethics, which studies more concrete systems of moral decision-making such as deontological ethics and consequentialism. An example of normative ethical philosophy is the Golden Rule, which states: "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself."[3][4]

Immorality is the active opposition to morality (i.e. opposition to that which is good or right), while amorality is variously defined as an unawareness of, indifference toward, or disbelief in any particular set of moral standards or principles.

The above is a small sample of dictionary definitions of 'morals'.  These definitions do not tell us what 'morals' are beyond being 'good'.  That does not tell us what things are good and which are not.

Question--from where do morals come?  Does god give us the meaning?  Does society?  Churches?  The courts?  You have not addressed if or what universal morals are.  You do seem to like discussing things in the most vague ways.  Could you enlighten us??
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 02, 2021, 02:20:11 PM
Mike

Your ---
"Gnostic christians are neither more nor less moral than any other christian."

First, thanks for the definition.

Second, I do not think we have an argument on morals being subjective.

You judged my morals as equal to the mainstream Christianity, --- that is homophobic and misogynous, --- and discriminates negatively, without a just cause, --- against better than half the world.

Gnostic Christian are universalists and give all souls the same value.

Our religion does not have parents hate their gay or female children.

If you wish to compare me to those ass holes, and find my morals as low as theirs, then yours must be way lower than mine.

If you are no better than a Christian, you are not fit to judge.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on December 02, 2021, 03:23:15 PM
Most xtians believe their book and a human scapegoat needed to be tortured and sacrificed for our 'sins' so a 'loving' dictator (who made us 'broken') can save us all from an eternal burning pit. This is immoral on so many levels
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 02, 2021, 05:14:11 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 02, 2021, 02:20:11 PM
Mike

Your ---
"Gnostic christians are neither more nor less moral than any other christian."

First, thanks for the definition.

Second, I do not think we have an argument on morals being subjective.

You judged my morals as equal to the mainstream Christianity, --- that is homophobic and misogynous, --- and discriminates negatively, without a just cause, --- against better than half the world.

Gnostic Christian are universalists and give all souls the same value.

Our religion does not have parents hate their gay or female children.

If you wish to compare me to those ass holes, and find my morals as low as theirs, then yours must be way lower than mine.

If you are no better than a Christian, you are not fit to judge.

Regards
DL
MMMMMM................Why do you keep dodging the question?????  It is a simply one, really.  What are morals and where do they come from; who or what establishes them???
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 03, 2021, 10:14:00 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 02, 2021, 05:14:11 PM
MMMMMM................Why do you keep dodging the question?????  It is a simply one, really.  What are morals and where do they come from; who or what establishes them???

I did not dodge anything and have already accepted your definition.

Where morals come from, is your DNA.

It controls your thinking chemically.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 03, 2021, 11:14:58 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 03, 2021, 10:14:00 AM
I did not dodge anything and have already accepted your definition.

Where morals come from, is your DNA.
lol, Mike.  He's gotcha there.  If you break it down and go super dterministic, it really does boil down to chemistry.  Though this isn't a particularly satisfying answer for many because it seemingly denies agency and moral reasoning altogether.

Though I do wonder what attracts people to ideologies with subpar moral ideas baked in and how to lessen its appeal.  Maybe that's a forever problem.  Maybe it's a stage of human development.  Who knows.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 03, 2021, 12:36:46 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 03, 2021, 10:14:00 AM
I did not dodge anything and have already accepted your definition.

Where morals come from, is your DNA.

It controls your thinking chemically.

Regards
DL
Interesting.  So, my morals are determined by my DNA and via chemical messages controls my thinking.  So who/what creates that DNA?

BTW, those definitions are not mine, but copy and pasted from dictionaries.  Actually, I don't think morals exist.  Rules of conduct do, but are derived from each society/culture.  And many rules of conduct co-exist with societies/cultures.  And each person has their own rules of conduct, as well.   
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 03, 2021, 12:50:01 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 03, 2021, 11:14:58 AM
lol, Mike.  He's gotcha there.  If you break it down and go super dterministic, it really does boil down to chemistry.  Though this isn't a particularly satisfying answer for many because it seemingly denies agency and moral reasoning altogether.

Though I do wonder what attracts people to ideologies with subpar moral ideas baked in and how to lessen its appeal.  Maybe that's a forever problem.  Maybe it's a stage of human development.  Who knows.
Actually I think each person's chemical makeup determines much of what a person thinks, feels, and does.  And that fact is only now becoming fully appreciated by the scientific community.  For an example, pedophiliacs simply can't control their impulses--there is no cure for it at this point in time.  And 'insanity' is caused by a bad batch of chemicals within that person. 

For me, so called morals are determined by society as a whole and each individual.  That does frustrate theists everywhere and everywhen.   
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on December 03, 2021, 02:30:47 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 03, 2021, 10:14:00 AM


Where morals come from, is your DNA.

It controls your thinking chemically.

Regards
DL



Hoo-boy…..ðŸ™,,
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 03, 2021, 02:51:48 PM
Quote from: aitm on December 03, 2021, 02:30:47 PMHoo-boy…..ðŸ™,,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HU6FkEMx7k
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Docillinois on December 03, 2021, 04:06:43 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 03, 2021, 10:14:00 AM
I did not dodge anything and have already accepted your definition.

Where morals come from, is your DNA.

It controls your thinking chemically.

Regards
DL

Possibly.  There is research ongoing in behavioral genetics which explores the heritability of morality, though its more in the early stages. 

Did I inherit my moral compass? Examining socialization and evocative mechanisms for virtuous character development.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6443408/


There is also currently exploration of whether reactive heritability can be applied to the development of a moral sense:

On the Universality of Human Nature and the Uniqueness of the Individual: The Role of Genetics and Adaptation
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-6494.1990.tb00907.x
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 03, 2021, 05:45:58 PM
I mean, we know that animals like mice have a basic moral sense and you follow that up the food chain to more advanced brains like elephants and dolphins (and perhaps the occasional human) and you get a highly developed moral sense.  What else could possibly account for that but biology?  The facts on the ground definitely make the claim that there was some sort of divine imbuement look silly and high unlikely.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on December 03, 2021, 06:20:29 PM
If morality is in the DNA or even if it is considered a divine gift, one should spend a hour in a kindergarten with 20 kids and 4 toys…..
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Dark Lightning on December 03, 2021, 10:32:01 PM
Yeah, they just ducked behind a biological dodge when their argument failed. I'm seeing this person being an obnoxious chump on several atheist forums, currently. At least they haven't done copy-pasta over them, because those of us who see that know. And they get banned pretty quickly, in that case. Just bring an argument and defend it in a genuine way? I guess that's too tough for some people.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 04, 2021, 10:33:10 AM
Quote from: aitm on December 03, 2021, 06:20:29 PM
If morality is in the DNA or even if it is considered a divine gift, one should spend a hour in a kindergarten with 20 kids and 4 toys…..

Yes.

You can tell which child is thinking in a hyper way, due to DNA and sugar.

Chemicals control us to some extent unfortunately.

Ask any woman in PMS.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 04, 2021, 10:34:28 AM
Quote from: Dark Lightning on December 03, 2021, 10:32:01 PM
Yeah, they just ducked behind a biological dodge when their argument failed. I'm seeing this person being an obnoxious chump on several atheist forums, currently. At least they haven't done copy-pasta over them, because those of us who see that know. And they get banned pretty quickly, in that case. Just bring an argument and defend it in a genuine way? I guess that's too tough for some people.

Yes, my interlocutors are useless at debates, usually.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Dark Lightning on December 04, 2021, 10:39:57 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 04, 2021, 10:34:28 AM
Yes, my interlocutors are useless at debates, usually.

Regards
DL

:rolleyes: My, aren't we the one.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 04, 2021, 10:44:19 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 04, 2021, 10:33:10 AMYou can tell which child is thinking in a hyper way, due to DNA and sugar.
Sugar causing hyperactivity is a common myth and frequently debunked (https://www.webmd.com/parenting/features/busting-sugar-hyperactivity-myth#1).
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on December 04, 2021, 01:04:50 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 04, 2021, 10:33:10 AM
Yes.

You can tell which child is thinking in a hyper way, due to DNA and sugar.

Chemicals control us to some extent unfortunately.

Ask any woman in PMS.

Regards
DL

Obviously you’ve never spent time with a bunch of children and not many toys or you don’t understand what the conversation meant in relationship to the word morality. Since you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about perhaps you should leave this for the grownups.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 04, 2021, 01:45:53 PM
I have a sign on my front door, "NO PROSLETYZING". I'm not polite to people who don't respect that. I pulled a five foot sword on a guy who insisted on giving me a Watchtower rag. He fled like a bunny. My no trespassing sign is a "human" target with the center blown out of it. (Boss Lady picked up on the 9 with much glee and a slightly mad look in the eye that I know very well.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 07, 2021, 05:45:45 PM
DNA directly effects our thinking, chemically.

Chemically, try a no coffee day.

Testosterone levels and estrogen levels have been blamed for murder.

If too much for fools to understand, try a few drinks and smoke a joint the come back and argue.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 07, 2021, 05:49:05 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 04, 2021, 01:45:53 PM
I have a sign on my front door, "NO PROSLETYZING". I'm not polite to people who don't respect that. I pulled a five foot sword on a guy who insisted on giving me a Watchtower rag. He fled like a bunny. My no trespassing sign is a "human" target with the center blown out of it. (Boss Lady picked up on the 9 with much glee and a slightly mad look in the eye that I know very well.

My sword is usually words, and I have one convert to brag about.

You showed him though.

Your brightness of sword and less bright whit.

Face to face, they are easy to converse with if their watch dog can be shut up as well.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 07, 2021, 05:51:43 PM
On sugar.

I have 4 boys and 5 grand children.

I know when they have eaten sweets.

I appreciate your ??? data showing otherwise, but I have to go with what I know as a fact.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 07, 2021, 09:15:10 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 07, 2021, 05:51:43 PMI appreciate your ??? data showing otherwise, but I have to go with what I know as a fact.
lol, don't let data get in the way of what you know(heh) to be true.  :P
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 07, 2021, 11:06:02 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 07, 2021, 05:51:43 PM
On sugar.


I appreciate your ??? data showing otherwise, but I have to go with what I know as a fact.

Regards
DL
What you know as a fact. :)))  Just as you know god is a fact or jesus is a fact.  Christians don't know a fact from a belief.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on December 07, 2021, 11:17:09 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 07, 2021, 11:06:02 PM
What you know as a fact. :)))  Just as you know god is a fact or jesus is a fact.  Christians don't know a fact from a belief.
Or faith from hope.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 08, 2021, 02:15:03 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 07, 2021, 11:06:02 PM
What you know as a fact. :)))  Just as you know god is a fact or jesus is a fact.  Christians don't know a fact from a belief.

There was none. That was the point, stupid.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 08, 2021, 02:19:09 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 07, 2021, 11:06:02 PM
What you know as a fact. :)))  Just as you know god is a fact or jesus is a fact.  Christians don't know a fact from a belief.

You put lies in my mouth then chastise me for your lies.

Nice and honest that, ass hole.

Only the really stupid will not know that there are no supernatural beliefs in Gnostic Christiuanity.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 08, 2021, 02:22:19 PM
Quote from: Cassia on December 07, 2021, 11:17:09 PM
Or faith from hope.

Another who judges without facts.

What the fuck has happened here since i last visited.

Everyone seems to have taken stupidity pills.

Faith, BTW, is for fools.

That is why Gnostic Christians go with logic, reason and what can be known.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on December 08, 2021, 05:09:43 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 08, 2021, 02:22:19 PM
Another who judges without facts.

What the fuck has happened here since i last visited.

Everyone seems to have taken stupidity pills.

Faith, BTW, is for fools.

That is why Gnostic Christians go with logic, reason and what can be known.

Regards
DL
Every xtian moron comes on here claiming to be different. To have the truth. What a joke. Next.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 08, 2021, 05:29:06 PM
Quote from: Cassia on December 08, 2021, 05:09:43 PM
Every xtian moron comes on here claiming to be different. To have the truth. What a joke. Next.

Where the fuck have I said I have the truth?

Where are you stupid people getting your false facts about me?

Get some fucking quotes, or are you all too retarded?

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 08, 2021, 05:33:31 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 08, 2021, 02:19:09 PM

Only the really stupid will not know that there are no supernatural beliefs in Gnostic Christiuanity.

Regards
DL
Thank you for kindly informing me of how you define what your gnostic christianity is.  Since you cannot be bothered by informing me, I'll inform you.

A couple of definitions of your religion from the net:

1--Rather than believe in the good of creation, Gnostics regarded matter and, in fact, the whole universe, to be a defilement of the deity -- the god of light/spirit. They taught that the ultimate end would be to overcome matter and be reunited with the parent spirit and realm of light/energy. This would not be achieved by submission to God's laws or through grace (God's forgiveness of man's sins) by acceptance of the living Christ -- the Son of God and Redeemer. Redemption or salvation would occur by awakening the sleeping gnosis (knowledge/wisdom) or "God within" -- through deep thoughts, reflection, and meditation thereby freeing the good spirit imprisoned within the evil physical body.

2--Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωσÏ,,ικόÏ,, romanized: gnōstikós, Koine Greek: [É£nostiˈkos], 'having knowledge') is a collection of religious ideas and systems which originated in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects.[1] These various groups emphasised personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) above the orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of traditional religious institutions. Viewing material existence as flawed or evil, Gnostic cosmogony generally presents a distinction between a supreme, hidden God and a malevolent lesser divinity (sometimes associated with the Yahweh of the Old Testament)[2] who is responsible for creating the material universe.[3] Gnostics considered the principal element of salvation to be direct knowledge of the supreme divinity in the form of mystical or esoteric insight. Many Gnostic texts deal not in concepts of sin and repentance, but with illusion and enlightenment.[3]

3--There is actually no such thing as Christian Gnosticism, because true Christianity and Gnosticism are mutually exclusive systems of belief. The principles of Gnosticism contradict what it means to be a Christian. Therefore, while some forms of Gnosticism may claim to be Christian, they are in fact decidedly non-Christian.

Gnosticism was perhaps the most dangerous heresy that threatened the early church during the first three centuries. Influenced by such philosophers as Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises. First, it espouses a dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition, Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only.

Second, Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plane of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God.

4--Gnostic Christianity is a Way of Life based on the original teachings of Jesus Christ. A gnostic is a person who believes that salvation is gained through the acquisition of divine knowledge or gnosis. Gnostic Christians believe that the knowledge necessary for salvation has been revealed through Jesus Christ. Gnostics recognize that this world is subject to powers of darkness that distort our concept of reality. As Jesus explained, "The shadows of this world are perceived by mortals, and they think they know the Truth, but the Reality which casts the shadows is hidden from them, and they do not perceive the Light." (Sayings 2:2)

When gnostics speak of salvation, they mean being freed from these illusions of darkness so that they can perceive Reality. As Jesus said, "I tell you the truth when I say that only when you perceive shadows as shadows, and search the Light, will you perceive the Reality which is God." (IBID.) He also said, "If you continue to acquire gnosis through me and live by the principles I teach, you will be my true disciples. Then you will learn of Truth, and Truth will set you free." (Testimony of St. John 8:31-32)

------And I could go on posting these definitions for hours.  And just like with any other religion, hardly any two people define what they believe the same way.  This stupid person will tell you that your beliefs are just that--beliefs, bereft of any facts.  For example, god does not exist nor does Jesus.  And 'Christ' is simply a title, not a last name.  There is no heaven, hell or 'the devil' or evil (or good) demons.  As far as I'm concerned, gnostic christian is just another name for 'idiot'.     
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on December 08, 2021, 05:41:55 PM
Fuck all the gods and people who wanna shove all that bullshit nonesense in our faces. Not worth one minute of thought to anyone with a real brain. Each 'sect' with their "crafted angle" all lead back to the same centroid....a stinky pile of poop.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on December 09, 2021, 12:03:20 AM
Have y'all had a similar experience? When some marginalized xtains figure out I am an atheist they would rather bang their latest revelations against me than anyone of their ilk/flock. Especially the ones who have done all sorts of "research" in their studies of fiction and nothingness on some spiritual quest.

They just don't have the courage to give up on their need for authority and purpose.  That's what I tell them. "Grow the fuck up" this 115lber told my 6'2", 250lb coworker as he ordered me a martini. I say it jokingly of course, but goddam...there is nothing less attractive than a grown man who needs a conjured-up daddy and son to tell him how to live. Anyways, these fake-intellectual apologists always find me somehow ("btw; what church do you go to?") and like tryout their latest mental gymnastics.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 09, 2021, 12:56:24 AM
Quote from: Cassia on December 09, 2021, 12:03:20 AMI say it jokingly of course, but goddam...there is nothing less attractive than a grown man who needs a conjured-up daddy and son to tell him how to live.
As a guy, I'm not super keen on the idea of taking a girl on a date and then hearing some drivel about the end times, either.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: SGOS on December 09, 2021, 06:24:48 AM
Quote from: Cassia on December 09, 2021, 12:03:20 AM
Have y'all had a similar experience? When some marginalized xtains figure out I am an atheist they would rather bang their latest revelations against me than anyone of their ilk/flock. Especially the ones who have done all sorts of "research" in their studies of fiction and nothingness on some spiritual quest.
Claiming a specific Christian affiliation is becoming more and more difficult for people, probably due to some of the church stands that run so contrary to evolving public opinion.  People are forced to take a harder look at doctrine, but are not capable of letting go of faith and fantasy so they drift off into more attractive fantasies of their own.  It's an evolution of Christianity, but unfortunately not an evolution of critical thinking.  I think we will see more of this in the future.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on December 09, 2021, 11:55:47 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 07, 2021, 05:45:45 PM
DNA directly effects our thinking,

Speculation on your part in no way means DNA can effect a child's morality. Are you sure you have had children?  It doesn't take a rational  person long to witness a child's behavior when another takes their toy. Letting DNA correct them is a rather....dumb response.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 09, 2021, 12:59:51 PM
Quote from: Cassia on December 09, 2021, 12:03:20 AM
Have y'all had a similar experience? When some marginalized xtains figure out I am an atheist they would rather bang their latest revelations against me than anyone of their ilk/flock.

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/df/f5/1f/dff51f57ff303c12a73f1fceac507d5a.jpg)

Nobody brings up religion with me, probably because I'm "quiet", "reserved" and "standoffish." I have no interest in hearing about people's religions, much less wasting my breath trying to tell them they're wrong.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 10, 2021, 05:43:40 AM
Same with any fanatics.

He: Want to see my butterfly collection?

Me: How do you keep them alive?

He: Huh?
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 10, 2021, 02:06:22 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 08, 2021, 05:33:31 PM
Thank you for kindly informing me of how you define what your gnostic christianity is.  Since you cannot be bothered by informing me, I'll inform you.

A couple of definitions of your religion from the net:

1--Rather than believe in the good of creation, Gnostics regarded matter and, in fact, the whole universe, to be a defilement of the deity -- the god of light/spirit. They taught that the ultimate end would be to overcome matter and be reunited with the parent spirit and realm of light/energy. This would not be achieved by submission to God's laws or through grace (God's forgiveness of man's sins) by acceptance of the living Christ -- the Son of God and Redeemer. Redemption or salvation would occur by awakening the sleeping gnosis (knowledge/wisdom) or "God within" -- through deep thoughts, reflection, and meditation thereby freeing the good spirit imprisoned within the evil physical body.

2--Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωσÏ,,ικόÏ,, romanized: gnōstikós, Koine Greek: [É£nostiˈkos], 'having knowledge') is a collection of religious ideas and systems which originated in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects.[1] These various groups emphasised personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) above the orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of traditional religious institutions. Viewing material existence as flawed or evil, Gnostic cosmogony generally presents a distinction between a supreme, hidden God and a malevolent lesser divinity (sometimes associated with the Yahweh of the Old Testament)[2] who is responsible for creating the material universe.[3] Gnostics considered the principal element of salvation to be direct knowledge of the supreme divinity in the form of mystical or esoteric insight. Many Gnostic texts deal not in concepts of sin and repentance, but with illusion and enlightenment.[3]

3--There is actually no such thing as Christian Gnosticism, because true Christianity and Gnosticism are mutually exclusive systems of belief. The principles of Gnosticism contradict what it means to be a Christian. Therefore, while some forms of Gnosticism may claim to be Christian, they are in fact decidedly non-Christian.

Gnosticism was perhaps the most dangerous heresy that threatened the early church during the first three centuries. Influenced by such philosophers as Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises. First, it espouses a dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition, Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only.

Second, Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plane of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God.

4--Gnostic Christianity is a Way of Life based on the original teachings of Jesus Christ. A gnostic is a person who believes that salvation is gained through the acquisition of divine knowledge or gnosis. Gnostic Christians believe that the knowledge necessary for salvation has been revealed through Jesus Christ. Gnostics recognize that this world is subject to powers of darkness that distort our concept of reality. As Jesus explained, "The shadows of this world are perceived by mortals, and they think they know the Truth, but the Reality which casts the shadows is hidden from them, and they do not perceive the Light." (Sayings 2:2)

When gnostics speak of salvation, they mean being freed from these illusions of darkness so that they can perceive Reality. As Jesus said, "I tell you the truth when I say that only when you perceive shadows as shadows, and search the Light, will you perceive the Reality which is God." (IBID.) He also said, "If you continue to acquire gnosis through me and live by the principles I teach, you will be my true disciples. Then you will learn of Truth, and Truth will set you free." (Testimony of St. John 8:31-32)

------And I could go on posting these definitions for hours.  And just like with any other religion, hardly any two people define what they believe the same way.  This stupid person will tell you that your beliefs are just that--beliefs, bereft of any facts.  For example, god does not exist nor does Jesus.  And 'Christ' is simply a title, not a last name.  There is no heaven, hell or 'the devil' or evil (or good) demons.  As far as I'm concerned, gnostic christian is just another name for 'idiot'.     

Let's see if you can use logic instead of believing the B S the inquisitors said to justify their many murders.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it;  cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said,  "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 11, 2021, 01:26:18 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 10, 2021, 02:06:22 PM
Let's see if you can use logic instead of believing the B S the inquisitors said to justify their many murders.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.


The definitions I supplied above was not taken from a catholic definition but general sources.  You use the term 'Gnostic Christians' as though they were a monolithic group or organization.  Now, and throughout history, there have been many groups who called themselves 'gnostic' and they do not agree on all of the tenets of being gnostic.  Typical of all religious organizations. 

You have yet to inform us of what it is your group believe. 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 11, 2021, 01:33:49 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 10, 2021, 02:06:22 PM

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it;  cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said,  "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

The 'reality' of all religious is simply make-believe.  There is no god and all religious texts (including the bible and all of it variants) are manmade.  The real reality of the above is that it is make-believe.  purely manmade.  It is your opinion and not based on any facts you, or anyone else, can provide. You say--- Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.  Please do, but understand that that is only your opinion since you cannot give us any facts or proof to back it up.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 11, 2021, 01:44:09 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 10, 2021, 02:06:22 PM


Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL
I see neither.  When I look around I simply see is what is.  It is neither good nor bad, it just is.  It was not created by anything or anybody, but just is.  Could it be better?  Sure.  Could it be worse? Sure.  But we have simply what is. 

The Candide quote is simply a matter of his opinion and nothing else.  I disagree with that opinion.

And this is not the best possible world to live in.  Or the worst either.  It is what it is.  As humans we are impacting this world, but mostly for the bad.  But we have the ability to make positive changes, though--and we'd better hurry. 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 11, 2021, 05:07:23 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 11, 2021, 01:44:09 PM
I see neither.  When I look around I simply see is what is.  It is neither good nor bad, it just is.  It was not created by anything or anybody, but just is.  Could it be better?  Sure.  Could it be worse? Sure.  But we have simply what is. 

The Candide quote is simply a matter of his opinion and nothing else.  I disagree with that opinion.

And this is not the best possible world to live in.  Or the worst either.  It is what it is.  As humans we are impacting this world, but mostly for the bad.  But we have the ability to make positive changes, though--and we'd better hurry. 

Mostly for the bad??

There is a professor Pinker who will disagree with you.

There is a hell of a lot more good than evil around.

Make your case with stats, or google and listen to  Prof. Pinker who has and will refute your foolish view.

In fact, experts are saying that we are too good to each other.

That may be why we destroy our environment instead of each other.

As to --- "And this is not the best possible world to live in."

Given our history, how could it possibly be better?

Sure, your dick and mine could be bigger, for an example of better, but it is only a wish, --- given our history.

Simple logic.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 11, 2021, 09:13:28 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 11, 2021, 05:07:23 PMMostly for the bad??

There is a professor Pinker who will disagree with you.
Better than in the past =/= things are peachy now (they're just better in comparison to the days of slavery and literal decimation)

As for worlds, I'll get back to you guys on that when we find another inhabited world.  Any statement on that is purely speculation at this point.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on December 12, 2021, 08:28:41 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 11, 2021, 05:07:23 PM

There is a hell of a lot more good than evil around..

Simple logic.

Spoken like a typical white male born in the US of median income and who life has been of relative ease.

Simple logic= ignorance of the world beyond his nose.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 12, 2021, 11:00:55 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 11, 2021, 05:07:23 PM
Mostly for the bad??

There is a professor Pinker who will disagree with you.




Make your case with stats, or google and listen to  Prof. Pinker who has and will refute your foolish view.

In fact, experts are saying that we are too good to each other.

That may be why we destroy our environment instead of each other.

As to --- "And this is not the best possible world to live in."

Given our history, how could it possibly be better?

Sure, your dick and mine could be bigger, for an example of better, but it is only a wish, --- given our history.

Simple logic.

Regards
DL
We (humans) are killing the environment--the environment that has supported us for thousands of years.  Without a healthy environment humans cannot be healthy.  Yeah--simple logic.  Is that evil?  Not really--more like stupidity. 

You say, "There is a hell of a lot more good than evil around."  We finally agree. 

How could our history be better?  Since you believe (with no evidence to back it up) the universe was created by a creator, I have a suggestion or two of this mythical entity.  Your made up god in your manmade bible tells us 'thou shalt not kill'.  Yet nature makes it that we humans has to kill to live; we have no choice.  Plants can gather energy from the sun, but we cannot.  We have to kill (eat) plants and animals to survive.  And if we don't we die--we kill ourselves.  We have no choice, your creator saw to that.  So, I'd change it so that humans and all other animals could gather all the energy needed to live from the sun.  Or minerals and heat, like the system that works without sunlight at the bottom of the world's seas. 

And you still have not told us what it is you believe and why.  Why is that?  Because you really don't believe that any god exists--you just don't have the courage to say that.  Like all religious, they are motivated by fear and will buy into any hypothesis that deadens that fear.  The religious=cowards.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 12, 2021, 11:14:21 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 12, 2021, 11:00:55 AM
We (humans) are killing the environment--the environment that has supported us for thousands of years.  Without a healthy environment humans cannot be healthy.  Yeah--simple logic.  Is that evil?  Not really--more like stupidity. 

You say, "There is a hell of a lot more good than evil around."  We finally agree. 

How could our history be better?  Since you believe (with no evidence to back it up) the universe was created by a creator, I have a suggestion or two of this mythical entity.  Your made up god in your manmade bible tells us 'thou shalt not kill'.  Yet nature makes it that we humans has to kill to live; we have no choice.  Plants can gather energy from the sun, but we cannot.  We have to kill (eat) plants and animals to survive.  And if we don't we die--we kill ourselves.  We have no choice, your creator saw to that.  So, I'd change it so that humans and all other animals could gather all the energy needed to live from the sun.  Or minerals and heat, like the system that works without sunlight at the bottom of the world's seas. 

And you still have not told us what it is you believe and why.  Why is that?  Because you really don't believe that any god exists--you just don't have the courage to say that.  Like all religious, they are motivated by fear and will buy into any hypothesis that deadens that fear.  The religious=cowards.

" Since you believe (with no evidence to back it up) the universe was created by a creator,"

" Because you really don't believe that any god exists"

You ask me what I  believe, while thinking I both do and do not believe in a creator.

How the fuck am I to respond to such contradictory idiocy?

I believe that there is no such thing as the supernatural.

No creator god.

What else would you like to know?

What other aspects of Gnostic Christianity would you like?

How about how we have condemned the genocidal Yahweh/Jesus to hell?

Not hell exists, but that is where that prick deserves to be.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 12, 2021, 12:21:32 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 12, 2021, 11:14:21 AM

How the fuck am I to respond to such contradictory idiocy?

I believe that there is no such thing as the supernatural.

No creator god.

What else would you like to know?


Regards
DL
Respond with honesty.

If there is no supernatural (I agree that there isn't) where does the 'Christian' part of your title come from?  I equate gnosis with intuition, so I get that.  You quote the bible often, so where did that come from?  Who or what supplied the writing?  And which bible do you quote from and why?
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 12, 2021, 02:56:17 PM
Anything I say to TRUE BELEIVERS© is for the benefit of the peanut gallery. The TRUE BELEIVERS© don't change their minds any more often than they change their socks and underwear.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 12, 2021, 03:12:06 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 12, 2021, 12:21:32 PM
Respond with honesty.

If there is no supernatural (I agree that there isn't) where does the 'Christian' part of your title come from?  I equate gnosis with intuition, so I get that.  You quote the bible often, so where did that come from?  Who or what supplied the writing?  And which bible do you quote from and why?

I chose Gnostic Christianity because of it's superior ideology and morality.

It is about the only religion or thinking system I know that is universalist and intelligent in showing it's naturalistic universalist religious worth.

Atheism is my third with agnostics as my second choice.

Atheism is getting closer now that there are atheist churches. I waited years for them to show their moral tribal intelligence.

I read the bible as showing a naturalistic religion, after talking out the mythical drama parts.

That is the only way I could get rid of the problem of evil that the supernatural believers have to deal with, and cannot.

Not while their dogma goes against the bible.

The following Gnostic Christian wisdom of reality is a part of it.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religion’s originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it;  cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said,  "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL


Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 12, 2021, 03:17:53 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 12, 2021, 12:21:32 PM
  You quote the bible often, so where did that come from?  Who or what supplied the writing?  And which bible do you quote from and why?

The Jews who wrote the bible, wrote it as a discussion paper.

The same applies to the Gnostic Christians with their myths.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL




Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 12, 2021, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 12, 2021, 02:56:17 PM
Anything I say to TRUE BELEIVERS© is for the benefit of the peanut gallery. The TRUE BELEIVERS© don't change their minds any more often than they change their socks and underwear.

Let me know when you find a true believer here.

I will go chat with him and try to convert him.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 12, 2021, 03:58:43 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 12, 2021, 03:19:24 PM
Let me know when you find a true believer here.

I will go chat with him and try to convert him.

Regards
DL
Did I say "here" anywhere?
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 13, 2021, 11:55:45 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 12, 2021, 03:17:53 PM
The Jews who wrote the bible, wrote it as a discussion paper.

The same applies to the Gnostic Christians with their myths.

The OT was more or less, written that way--discussion paper(s).  The NT was put together differently.  It was, and is, a propaganda piece, compiled and edited over the course of centuries.  Which is the reason for there being dozens or different bibles and the different arrangement of it's books.  Paul, often referred to as Gnostic, being it's first author. 

Myths are interesting.  For a bit I read quite a few of Joseph Campbell's books dealing with that subject.  As it turns out, myth is important in most all societies and have stories and lessons to tell in ways that most can relate to. 

For decades I searched for the spiritual side of life and how to best access it.  I was a member of Unity for almost a decade; served on the church board for over half that time.  I studied church leaders and liked (and still like) many of Charles Fillmore's teachings.  He called the center of each person (intitution)  and called Christ Consciousness and it dwelled deep within each person.  I now call it self awareness.  He also taught using affirmations and I try to use them still--it is basically thinking positive and mind training.  I also came away from my stay with Unity understanding (after much study) that Jesus was a myth and never an actual human or being.  And that god does not exist.  I now call myself (if anybody really wants to know) atheist, because that is what makes the most sense to me when looking at all the data and evidence (or lack of it). 

I find it interesting that you and I probably interface with or society and friends in much the same way.  If one were to view us from afar, I don't think they could tell what our inner ideas/ideals would be.  We do differ in our beliefs; I don't have what one would label 'beliefs' but rely on facts.  For example, I don't say 'I believe the sun will come up tomorrow.'  I would put it as thinking the sun will come up tomorrow based on the fact it has for billions of years and that the phrase 'come up' simply refers to rotation of the Earth in reference to the sun.  I also use 'I don't know' quite a bit and am okay with not knowing.   
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 14, 2021, 05:39:58 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 13, 2021, 11:55:45 AM
I don't have what one would label 'beliefs' but rely on facts.

Excellent.

Close enough to Gnostic Christian, go by what can be known and shown, for me.

Reality hold the worthy answers.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 14, 2021, 05:44:18 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 12, 2021, 03:58:43 PM
Did I say "here" anywhere?

Same reply for anywhere on Earth.

A miracle working Christian does not exist if you read scriptures literally.

Jesus is and must be a miracle worker, and he said that anyone with even a tiny amount of faith or belief could do what he, Jesus, did.
 
Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Shiranu on December 14, 2021, 07:00:39 PM
QuoteJesus is and must be a miracle worker, and he said that anyone with even a tiny amount of faith or belief could do what he, Jesus, did.

Then either he is a liar or not a single Christian has even a tiny amount of faith, both of which are not good signs for Christianity.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 14, 2021, 09:02:24 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 14, 2021, 05:44:18 PM


Jesus is and must be a miracle worker, and he said that anyone with even a tiny amount of faith or belief could do what he, Jesus, did.
 
Regards
DL
Jesus can't be a miracle worker.  He is a fiction; just like Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Johnny Appleseed--or any other fictional character.  There is no evidence that shows that Jesus was anything more than a fiction. 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on December 14, 2021, 09:59:32 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 14, 2021, 09:02:24 PM
Jesus can't be a miracle worker.  He is a fiction; just like Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Johnny Appleseed--or any other fictional character.  There is no evidence that shows that Jesus was anything more than a fiction.
Neanderthal Jesus was tied up to a tree and a big Saber cat slashed him for hours to pay for the original Neanderthal sins. Except his mother was no virgin..screw that!
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on December 15, 2021, 06:32:15 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 14, 2021, 05:44:18 PM
Same reply for anywhere on Earth.

A miracle working Christian does not exist if you read scriptures literally.

Jesus is and must be a miracle worker, and he said that anyone with even a tiny amount of faith or belief could do what he, Jesus, did.
 
Regards
DL
I'll take your misdirection as an admission that I didn't say that.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 15, 2021, 09:35:58 AM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 15, 2021, 06:32:15 AM
I'll take your misdirection as an admission that I didn't say that.

Eh, ok.

I did not quote you.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 15, 2021, 12:11:16 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 14, 2021, 09:02:24 PM
Jesus can't be a miracle worker.  He is a fiction; just like Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Johnny Appleseed--or any other fictional character.  There is no evidence that shows that Jesus was anything more than a fiction.
I rarely quote myself.  But Greatest, you liked this.  Why?  I'm confused.  You label yourself as a gnostic christian.  The label of Christian signals to me that you (or anybody else who calls themselves that) believe that Jesus was an actual person and an actual god who gave instructions as reported by the bible.  Yet you indicate that you believe Jesus was a myth or a fiction.  Could you explain??
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 15, 2021, 01:14:13 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 15, 2021, 12:11:16 PM
I rarely quote myself.  But Greatest, you liked this.  Why?  I'm confused.  You label yourself as a gnostic christian.  The label of Christian signals to me that you (or anybody else who calls themselves that) believe that Jesus was an actual person and an actual god who gave instructions as reported by the bible.  Yet you indicate that you believe Jesus was a myth or a fiction.  Could you explain??

I see more than one Jesus in the bible.

One is a miracle working Christian fiction, thanks to Constantine, and the other, a Gnostic Jesus, who is more of an Eastern mystic.


He speaks like this ----


Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
   
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

----------

I try to emulate the ancient intelligentsia.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on December 15, 2021, 01:55:29 PM
QuoteHere is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.
Don't need salvation. No one does.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 15, 2021, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 15, 2021, 01:14:13 PM
I see more than one Jesus in the bible.

One is a miracle working Christian fiction, thanks to Constantine, and the other, a Gnostic Jesus, who is more of an Eastern mystic.


He speaks like this ----


Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
   
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

----------

I try to emulate the ancient intelligentsia.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

I accept the above as your beliefs.  But that is not how I think.  What leads you to believe the bible reflects two Jesus?  What leads you to believe the bible is accurate in anything?  If I remember correctly you do not believe in a creator god.  Do you believe the bible is divinely inspired?  Do you believe in any god? 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 15, 2021, 02:53:09 PM
Quote from: Cassia on December 15, 2021, 01:55:29 PM
Don't need salvation. No one does.

THAT IS THE MESSAGE.

Have you not been paying attention?

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on December 15, 2021, 03:04:57 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 15, 2021, 02:53:09 PM
THAT IS THE MESSAGE.

Have you not been paying attention?

Regards
DL
Such an agnostic mess, LOL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 15, 2021, 03:12:29 PM
Quote from: Cassia on December 15, 2021, 03:04:57 PM
Such an agnostic mess, LOL

To some.

A Gnostic might be seen as an agnostic who has graduated.

That puts him a cut above atheists who do not support atheist churches and actively apposes the vile right wing religions.

Does your ideology have an engage and fight evil side?

Do you go show your disdain and hate?

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on December 19, 2021, 12:14:56 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 15, 2021, 03:12:29 PM
To some.

A Gnostic might be seen as an agnostic who has graduated.
“Might be” only from the gnostic, whereas an atheist might see a gnostic as simply another fool

QuoteThat puts him a cut above atheists who do not support atheist churches and actively apposes the vile right wing religions.
Proof that a well read person does not mean they are intelligent.

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 19, 2021, 12:29:01 PM
Quote from: aitm on December 19, 2021, 12:14:56 PM
“Might be” only from the gnostic, whereas an atheist might see a gnostic as simply another fool
Proof that a well read person does not mean they are intelligent.


True. Intelligence is just the ability to remember. It takes a smart person to connect the dots and understand what is read.

The fool is the one who does not recognize that his enemies enemy is his friend.

Stop being a fool, stupid.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on December 19, 2021, 01:26:35 PM


QuoteStop being a fool, stupid.

Regards
DL

Say that to a mirror. It's far more appropriate
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on December 19, 2021, 04:40:45 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 19, 2021, 12:29:01 PMIntelligence is just the ability to remember.
I'm not certain, but I think you may have intelligence confused with memory.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: SGOS on December 19, 2021, 05:47:57 PM
Memory is just one component of intelligence, and not the sum total of all the components.  I used to give intelligence tests, and there were a couple of memory testing exercises, but they only made up maybe less than 5% of the test. Although it's been years since I've given one of those.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: SGOS on December 19, 2021, 05:52:31 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 19, 2021, 12:29:01 PM
It takes a smart person to connect the dots and understand what is read.
This is a more relevant aspect of intelligence than simple memory.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 20, 2021, 10:21:52 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 19, 2021, 04:40:45 PM
I'm not certain, but I think you may have intelligence confused with memory.

Ok. Make it memory that is worthless without smarts to connect everything.

A computer has way more memory than I do but look at how stupid computers are.

Regards
DL

i
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on December 20, 2021, 10:23:14 AM
Quote from: SGOS on December 19, 2021, 05:52:31 PM
This is a more relevant aspect of intelligence than simple memory.

I agree.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: SoldierofFortune on January 07, 2022, 05:53:00 PM
yes, it is wrong to tell Christians whats wrong.

There were Turkish public intellectual. He was assasinated to death, unsuccesfully.

He said something like this: Oh my country, You have been sleeping so beautifully that out of mercy I couldnt dare waking you up.(free translation of mine)
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 08, 2022, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on January 07, 2022, 05:53:00 PM
yes, it is wrong to tell Christians whats wrong.

There were Turkish public intellectual. He was assasinated to death, unsuccesfully.

He said something like this: Oh my country, You have been sleeping so beautifully that out of mercy I couldnt dare waking you up.(free translation of mine)

Insert gays and women harmed by homophobic and misogynous religions to this quote. You should get an idea of what you should be doing with the homophobic and misogynous mainstream religions if you live by the golden rule.

Let me know if you do.

Martin Niemöller
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak outâ€"because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak outâ€" because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak outâ€"because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for meâ€"and there was no one left to speak for me.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on January 08, 2022, 11:20:25 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 08, 2022, 10:48:53 AM
Insert gays and women harmed by homophobic and misogynous religions to this quote. You should get an idea of what you should be doing with the homophobic and misogynous mainstream religions if you live by the golden rule.

Regards
DL


I am of a differing opinion in that neither racism or homophobia was originally due to religion. As humanity evolved in tribal cultures one domiate male would usually assume control probably by intimidation or force. He took the food he wanted and the females he wanted. Other tribes were to be wary of, and usually correctly so, people of other colors were easily distinguishable and as such would be considered adversarial. So in that, racism wasn’t born as racist but merely seen as preservation or protection of the tribe. That could easily evolve into racism by the tribal leader declaring edicts against those tribes and using whatever motivational ideas he could to insure they were avoided. Thus racism was born of fear and insecurity and blossomed into unwarranted hate simply because it was taught as such

As tribal culture continued to evolve leaders died and the next man took over. Somewhere along the line the idea of inheritance came to a larger role of a tribe. Now a powerful or even great leader was seen as not just a leader but as the generator of the next line. He and the assumed mother had a large role in the tribe and as such enjoyed greater amenities, their off-spring, specifically the male would be treated better then the other children, and receive the attention and protection to a greater degree being the child of the leader.

As a leader got older, his son was inline to inherit the role, his parents, the former leaders were still afforded certain amenities and privileges as long as they lived, more specifically the father. Because of this the son’s achievements were of great importance to the father, having a gay child did not necessarily mean an inferior warrior, but a sons preference for men or boys over women would surely cause some consternation to his father, and perhaps more than a little embarrassment. And if they lived long enough in general to even have grandchildren the original leader would be content and proud that his succession would be long lived. It is not inconceivable that a father disappointed by his sons choices could simply kill him and proclaim the next son to be the next leader. As everyone may have been well aware of the sons proclivity it is a reasonable assumption to I magine that other males who may have been gay recognized the danger in exhibiting that behavior. So I am not sure I buy completely into the idea that religion started homophobia, but it certainly took the baton and sprinted to the finish line.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: trdsf on January 08, 2022, 11:54:54 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on December 19, 2021, 12:29:01 PM
True. Intelligence is just the ability to remember. It takes a smart person to connect the dots and understand what is read.

The fool is the one who does not recognize that his enemies enemy is his friend.

Stop being a fool, stupid.

Regards
DL
Wrong.  The enemy of my enemy is an ally, not necessarily permanently, and not necessarily a friend.

Dick Cheney standing in the well of the House speaking out against Trumpism doesn't make him my friend and doesn't absolve him of his warmongering, war profiteering, and support of torture.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 08, 2022, 12:02:56 PM
Quote from: trdsf on January 08, 2022, 11:54:54 AM
The enemy of my enemy is an ally, not necessarily permanently, and not necessarily a friend.
The enemy of my enemy is a resource.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 08, 2022, 05:05:02 PM
Quote from: aitm on January 08, 2022, 11:20:25 AM
I am of a differing opinion in that neither racism or homophobia was originally due to religion.

Your opinion is wrong, given that humans have always been tribal and spiritual. King, and Shaman have been with us forever.

We came out of the trees and caves, and like all male run animal groups of that intelligence, the top dog would not waste a hunter, who also reduced the numbers of challengers to his right to all women.
 
No other animal of our past intelligence cared about those whose DNA had reduced the pressure on the top males.

To be homophobic would be to not have as many friends, and in those days, friends were everything.

Things were too tough to be any other way.

Only later did homophobes show their propensity and mental defect of putting sex and gender above love.

I agree with your last.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on January 08, 2022, 07:11:29 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 08, 2022, 05:05:02 PMYour opinion is wrong, given that humans have always been tribal and spiritual.
Tribal, yes, since that's how chimps operate and early humans were likely quite similar.  Spiritual?  I'm going to need a citation for that.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on January 08, 2022, 10:05:40 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 08, 2022, 05:05:02 PM
Your opinion is wrong, given that humans have always been tribal and spiritual. King, and Shaman have been with us forever.

We came out of the trees and caves, and like all male run animal groups of that intelligence, the top dog would not waste a hunter, who also reduced the numbers of challengers to his right to all women.
 
No other animal of our past intelligence cared about those whose DNA had reduced the pressure on the top males.

To be homophobic would be to not have as many friends, and in those days, friends were everything.

Things were too tough to be any other way.

Only later did homophobes show their propensity and mental defect of putting sex and gender above love.

I agree with your last.

Regards
DL

I would simply suggest that your opinion is wrong. The idea that a “superior” male would not kill his second because it would lessen their hunting abilities at the sacrifice of his mating with whomever he wanted is not realistic. We have had wars…many wars over a woman…not so many over a hamburger. Give a man a fuck..he’ll skip dinner for two days..give a man a filet instead of a fuck..,he’ll still take the fuck,
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 09, 2022, 04:17:37 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 08, 2022, 07:11:29 PM
Tribal, yes, since that's how chimps operate and early humans were likely quite similar.  Spiritual?  I'm going to need a citation for that.

The oldest serpent shrine I know of us 75,000 years old.

Cave paintings are even older.

Most scholars see spirituality and or religion in burial practices.

If that is not enough then think of how most think in a material dualism way, body/soul, and wonder why the world has always had religions.

Something like 96% of us think dualistically and posit our immaterial soul as a mystery, just as God was intended and is a mystery.

The mainstream religions have forgotten that and are just cheep idol worshipers of a mostly evil god.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 09, 2022, 04:23:38 PM
Quote from: aitm on January 08, 2022, 10:05:40 PM
I would simply suggest that your opinion is wrong. The idea that a “superior” male would not kill his second because it would lessen their hunting abilities at the sacrifice of his mating with whomever he wanted is not realistic. We have had wars…many wars over a woman…not so many over a hamburger. Give a man a fuck..he’ll skip dinner for two days..give a man a filet instead of a fuck..,he’ll still take the fuck,

Those are someone else's ideas.

Perhaps you had better start using the quote function. You put idiocies into my mouth.

Regards
DL


Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on January 09, 2022, 05:20:32 PM
I'm not sure humans are inherently spiritual.  I can imagine almost all very, very early groups had a leader.  And that leader was the strongest male.  That male would get the best of what that group had to offer--with brute strength.  I can also imagine a lessor strength male who was also very intelligent.  I can see that one developing a 'spiritual' side because he knew he would never out muscle the leader.  What better way than interpreting the 'mysteries' the world offered them than being able to know what that god or gods, wanted.  So, he created another locus of power--god.  God can be very powerful, especially if you are it's mouthpiece.  And that spiritual guide would not want the group to know what he did--especially that he created 'god'.   
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 09:53:58 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 09, 2022, 05:20:32 PM
I'm not sure humans are inherently spiritual.   

Has the vast majority of us to date not been religious?

Even today, stats favor the spiritual and religious.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on January 10, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 09:53:58 AM
Has the vast majority of us to date not been religious?

Even today, stats favor the spiritual and religious.

Regards
DL
Because most people believe something does not constitute proof that that belief is accurate or truthful.  Proof of a god(s) would constitute-----well, proof.  There is none.  Not a scrap.  Yes, most humans believe in a higher power of some sort.  And most likely, always have.  Yet with the thousands upon thousands of years of belief, there is still not one single scrap of proof that a god(s) exists.  That, to me, is a sort of proof against the actual existence of any such thing--god(s).  Can you cite any proof whatsoever that a higher power exists?????
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on January 10, 2022, 10:52:21 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am link=topic=14410.msg1305840#msg1305840 date=

Perhaps you had better start using the quote function. You put idiocies into my mouth.

Regards
DL




I don’t need quote functions to put idiocies in your mouth when that’s where they came from.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 11:00:38 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 10, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
Because most people believe something does not constitute proof that that belief is accurate or truthful.  Proof of a god(s) would constitute-----well, proof.  There is none.  Not a scrap.  Yes, most humans believe in a higher power of some sort.  And most likely, always have.  Yet with the thousands upon thousands of years of belief, there is still not one single scrap of proof that a god(s) exists.  That, to me, is a sort of proof against the actual existence of any such thing--god(s).  Can you cite any proof whatsoever that a higher power exists?????

Hell no.

The idea of a God should valued for thought, but to find a god is to become an idol worshiper.

If you find a god, kill it.

Gnostic Christians are perpetual seekers who have sent Yahweh to hell for his crimes against humanity. Not that he ever existed.

If there was a higher power, it would be the duty of all of us to destroy it if we could not bend it to our will.

Survival of the fittest.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on January 10, 2022, 11:04:21 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 09:53:58 AM
Has the vast majority of us to date not been religious?

Regards
DL


Being forced to believe in a religion, does not mean we are born spiritual or religious. Practically every religion today was spread by the sword…perhaps that’s what god intended eh?

We can actually watch the evolution of “spiritual” thought by watching children as they become more cognizant of life and the world. They create “friends” with inanimate objects, much like our ancestors did as they became more aware…children start projecting human qualities onto rocks and toys and animals as well, if left alone perhaps the concept of god would never come to them, but of course that rarely happens, most children are indoctrinated.

Are early ancestors left clear signs of their evolution into superstition, animism, totemism, shamans, priests, religions. Anthropology and archeology has quite the evidence of their ascent….and superstitious beliefs can be easily rolled into religions by the ignorant to the ignorant.

Humanity has had thousands if not tens of thousand of gods and they have all had the same ability to have the same success at preventing disease, sickness or death. None.

Either they all exist or none do.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 11:42:27 AM
I do not think a person can be forced into a belief.

He or she might adopt it for a number of reasons, but that is not belief.

That is why religions push faith, not belief.

Yes, religions were spread by the sword.

It began as a two edged sword of debate and discussion and seeking the best rules and laws to live by, then Christianity turned to inquisitions and force instead of moral arguments to persuade.

Most atheists say they are spiritual. No religion is required to be so.

In fact, a religion is likely a hinderance to spiritual thinking.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on January 10, 2022, 11:50:43 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 11:42:27 AM
I do not think a person can be forced into a belief.

He or she might adopt it for a number of reasons, but that is not belief.

That is why religions push faith, not belief.

Yes, religions were spread by the sword.

It began as a two edged sword of debate and discussion and seeking the best rules and laws to live by, then Christianity turned to inquisitions and force instead of moral arguments to persuade.

Most atheists say they are spiritual. No religion is required to be so.

In fact, a religion is likely a hinderance to spiritual thinking.

Regards
DL
To semantics, again.................what does 'spiritual thinking' entail? 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 01:04:01 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 10, 2022, 11:50:43 AM
To semantics, again.................what does 'spiritual thinking' entail? 

IDK.

Most atheists and other non-believers say they are spiritual and not religious.

Let me speculate that harm reduction seems to be an atheist forte, if Laïcité and atheist churches continues to be what non-believers advocate.

If so, I hope atheists and other people with a decent ideology will continue these trends.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on January 10, 2022, 01:28:54 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 01:04:01 PM
IDK.

Most atheists and other non-believers say they are spiritual and not religious.

Let me speculate that harm reduction seems to be an atheist forte, if Laïcité and atheist churches continues to be what non-believers advocate.

If so, I hope atheists and other people with a decent ideology will continue these trends.

Regards
DL
IDK either.  I tend to think that each person defines it as they see it.  So, to say that humans have been spiritual from the beginning is to say nothing, really.  I used to say that I was spiritual and not religious.  I do not like organized religions for I think they are destructive on many levels.  I no longer claim to be spiritual because it is a rather meaningless thing to claim. 
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on January 10, 2022, 03:22:53 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 11:42:27 AM
I do not think a person can be forced into a belief.


Children......children have been indoctrinated into religion for 2000 years. Mom and Dad believe it, must be true. Ever hear of Santa Claus? As there has never been a "hard push" to "clean" their minds they still believe. Thats how it works.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 05:38:56 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 10, 2022, 01:28:54 PM
IDK either.  I tend to think that each person defines it as they see it.  So, to say that humans have been spiritual from the beginning is to say nothing, really.  I used to say that I was spiritual and not religious.  I do not like organized religions for I think they are destructive on many levels.  I no longer claim to be spiritual because it is a rather meaningless thing to claim. 

It mostly means that you are one of the 96% of us who thinks in a material dualism way. Body/Soul.

I am with you on organized religions to a point. Too top heavy and rich.

I do not mind local churches as they are still doing good social work.

They will go as modernization and secular social services take the slack.

Most stay affiliated just for a place to be traditionally buried.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 05:44:37 PM
Quote from: aitm on January 10, 2022, 03:22:53 PM
Children......children have been indoctrinated into religion for 2000 years. Mom and Dad believe it, must be true. Ever hear of Santa Claus? As there has never been a "hard push" to "clean" their minds they still believe. Thats how it works.

I share your dislike of indoctrination.

You focused on children, but that indoctrination is just as potent to the insecure religious mind that care nothing of morals and ethics.

Why do you think their God is a genocidal prick?

I see that selection in our religious nations more troubling than the ongoing indoctrination of children.

Not to mention their preaching homophobia and misogyny against the law of the land that preaches for equality.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on January 10, 2022, 06:21:14 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 09, 2022, 04:17:37 PMThe oldest serpent shrine I know of us 75,000 years old.
Right.  And humans emerged in Africa at around 300,000 years ago, so that's closer to present day than the advent of homo sapiens.  So...kind of a swing and a miss with the "always" part.

QuoteCave paintings are even older.
Yes, they had cave paintings.  And....?

QuoteMost scholars see spirituality and or religion in burial practices.
We think some may have been buried ritualistically.  That's a far cry from all were definitely buried ritualistically in accordance with a religion.

QuoteSomething like 96% of us think dualistically and posit our immaterial soul as a mystery, just as God was intended and is a mystery.
And something like 96% of us were raised to be religious, raised within a religious household, religious society, religious advertising, etc.  Suffice it to say that early humans had very little, if any of that.

QuoteThe mainstream religions have forgotten that and are just cheep idol worshipers of a mostly evil god.
Yeah well, people's gods resemble them.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: trdsf on January 10, 2022, 06:45:26 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 10, 2022, 01:04:01 PM
Most atheists and other non-believers say they are spiritual and not religious.
You're going to need some sort of source for that, rather than the bald assertion.  Speaking for myself, no atheist that I've ever met has claimed to be spiritual.  They are in the main pretty thoroughgoing realists.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 11, 2022, 01:38:59 PM
"And something like 96% of us were raised to be religious"

Perhaps we do not define religious the same way.

This is not correct by a long shot.

Where is that stat from?

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Cassia on January 11, 2022, 01:45:07 PM
Quote from: trdsf on January 10, 2022, 06:45:26 PM
You're going to need some sort of source for that, rather than the bald assertion.  Speaking for myself, no atheist that I've ever met has claimed to be spiritual.  They are in the main pretty thoroughgoing realists.
Yes, and supernaturalists don't own the word. Spirit can correctly be used to describe a sense of awe, excitement or wonder within the natural world. Or it can smell. Like teen spirit.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 11, 2022, 02:04:17 PM
Quote from: trdsf on January 10, 2022, 06:45:26 PM
You're going to need some sort of source for that, rather than the bald assertion.  Speaking for myself, no atheist that I've ever met has claimed to be spiritual.  They are in the main pretty thoroughgoing realists.

They are, more than you are, unless your in the 4%.

Here is what I have.

At about 16.00, the show of hands indicates a highly left leaning group.

Further in, the spiritual thinking is shown.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_the_moral_roots_of_liberals_and_conservatives?language=en

All spiritual thinking is, is moral thinking and atheists are better at it than the religious.

There is nothing supernatural about spiritual thinking.

Think of spirit of the law as compared to the letter of the law.

Atheists are less insecure without a fear of God and make better choices.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on January 11, 2022, 06:20:42 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 11, 2022, 02:04:17 PM
They are, more than you are, unless your in the 4%.

Here is what I have.

At about 16.00, the show of hands indicates a highly left leaning group.

Further in, the spiritual thinking is shown.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_the_moral_roots_of_liberals_and_conservatives?language=en

All spiritual thinking is, is moral thinking and atheists are better at it than the religious.

There is nothing supernatural about spiritual thinking.

Think of spirit of the law as compared to the letter of the law.

Atheists are less insecure without a fear of God and make better choices.

Regards
DL
You like to use the word 'moral' a lot.  What does that mean to you?
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: trdsf on January 12, 2022, 12:27:37 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 11, 2022, 02:04:17 PM
They are, more than you are, unless your in the 4%.

Here is what I have.

At about 16.00, the show of hands indicates a highly left leaning group.

Further in, the spiritual thinking is shown.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_the_moral_roots_of_liberals_and_conservatives?language=en

All spiritual thinking is, is moral thinking and atheists are better at it than the religious.

There is nothing supernatural about spiritual thinking.

Think of spirit of the law as compared to the letter of the law.

Atheists are less insecure without a fear of God and make better choices.

Regards
DL
That's word salad, I asked for data.  If you're going to say that atheists identify as spiritual, where's the research study, or even just a set of polls from Pew or Gallup, rather than a show of hands in an audience self-selected to be present that talk?

You can't redefine morality as 'spiritual thinking' and then use that as the basis to back your assertion.  Morality has a basis in concrete reality, even if it's as simple as "don't be shitty to people because you don't want them being shitty back at you".  And 'spirituality' is a word with a primary meaning, which you are deliberately ignoring in order to make a baseless and rather ridiculous claim.

The camel's nose in the tent flap here is that once you apply 'spirituality' to atheism, then the tu quoque fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) of "so atheism is just another religion too" almost immediately follows.

And for the record, I was raised Roman Catholic and then converted to Wicca before I finally dispensed with woo.  I know spiritual thinking pretty intimately, and I go out of my way to not practice it.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 12, 2022, 03:56:52 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 11, 2022, 06:20:42 PM
You like to use the word 'moral' a lot.  What does that mean to you?

The Bible, as a consolidation of many creeds, and wisdom sayings, tries to do what all books of wisdom try to have us do. Evolve to a better form.

The present idol worshiping mainstream religions prevent that.

We will return to better days and thinking soon.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL




Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 12, 2022, 03:58:54 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 11, 2022, 06:20:42 PM
You like to use the word 'moral' a lot.  What does that mean to you?

Likely the same definitions you use.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 12, 2022, 04:06:37 PM
Quote from: trdsf on January 12, 2022, 12:27:37 PM
That's word salad, I asked for data.  If you're going to say that atheists identify as spiritual, where's the research study, or even just a set of polls from Pew or Gallup, rather than a show of hands in an audience self-selected to be present that talk?

You can't redefine morality as 'spiritual thinking' and then use that as the basis to back your assertion.  Morality has a basis in concrete reality, even if it's as simple as "don't be shitty to people because you don't want them being shitty back at you".  And 'spirituality' is a word with a primary meaning, which you are deliberately ignoring in order to make a baseless and rather ridiculous claim.

The camel's nose in the tent flap here is that once you apply 'spirituality' to atheism, then the tu quoque fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) of "so atheism is just another religion too" almost immediately follows.

And for the record, I was raised Roman Catholic and then converted to Wicca before I finally dispensed with woo.  I know spiritual thinking pretty intimately, and I go out of my way to not practice it.

Word salad ditto.

I gave you the data and stats on 94% of us thinking in a dualistic body soul/spirit way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IqYHiejTVM

If you wish, research whatever other stat you want.

You do not seem to know much about atheism.

Word salad.

t’s chat about the atheist religion.

Believers in the mainstream god religions often denigrate and discriminate against atheists, non-believers and rival religions on moral grounds. Godless mean without a moral sense to them.

I seek a solution to this problem, as the godless, statistically speaking, seem more moral, law abiding and peaceful than traditional mainstream religious believers who, ironically, claim a superior moral position, while having an inferior one. Statistics are quite clear on this.

As a Gnostic Christian, I get it from both sides. From believers who see me as an atheist and from atheists who see me as a believer. Both sides are wrong, given that Gnostic Christians are esoteric ecumenist and free-thinking naturalist, --- who hold no supernatural beliefs, --- regardless of the lies put into history by the inquisitors who decimated us, --- but never annihilated us. We are a religion of perpetual seekers of knowledge and wisdom, who raise the bar of excellence whenever we think we have the best ideological position.

This prevents the idol worshiping of the immoral gods, that the mainstream religions are prone to follow. This makes Gnostic Christianity a superior ideology. Perhaps this open-mindedness explains the hate towards us from god believers, as well as towards atheists and other non-believers that believers target.

Solutions to this endless denigration and discrimination are hard to come by, given that governments are not promoting any kind of dialog between the various religions and non-believers and allow religions to continue promoting vile homophobic and misogynous teachings.

To my way of thinking, be you following a theology and named god, a philosophy of a named philosopher, a religion that puts man above god and focuses on knowledge and wisdom like mine, a political tribe like Democrats and Republican, statism or any other thinking system, --- all groups named are following an ideology, --- and can thus be seem and described as a religion.

It is thus proper English to call atheism a religion. In fact, given the stats, atheism is a more moral religion than most. I am thinking that if all atheist proudly took on the religion label, --- as their atheist churches are doing, --- more god believing religionist would likely opt for atheism as their religion so as to improve their moral sense.

Take your deserved bow my atheist friends. You are now second only to my own Gnostic Christianity. We Gnostic Christian did what I advise here before the inquisitors got to us and that may be why we were known as the only good Christians.

Regards
DL

Since following an ideology is a prerequisite of religion, atheism can be considered a religion, since atheists draws on philosophical ideologies to guide ideas, behaviors, and actions, like that of any religion. That is why atheist churches are called atheist churches.

Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians
A new study shows how poorly we understand the beliefs of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular.

Americans are deeply religious peopleâ€"and atheists are no exception. Western Europeans are deeply secular peopleâ€"and Christians are no exception.

These twin statements are generalizations, but they capture the essence of a fascinating finding in a new study about Christian identity in Western Europe. By surveying almost 25,000 people in 15 countries in the region, and comparing the results with data previously gathered in the U.S., the Pew Research Center discovered three things.

First, researchers confirmed the widely known fact that, overall, Americans are much more religious than Western Europeans. They gauged religious commitment using standard questions, including “Do you believe in God with absolute certainty?” and “Do you pray daily?”

Second, the researchers found that American “nones”â€"those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particularâ€"are more religious than European nones. The notion that religiously unaffiliated people can be religious at all may seem contradictory, but if you disaffiliate from organized religion it does not necessarily mean you’ve sworn off belief in God, say, or prayer.

The third finding reported in the study is by far the most striking. As it turns out, “American ‘nones’ are as religious asâ€"or even more religious thanâ€"Christians in several European countries, including France, Germany, and the U.K.”

“That was a surprise,” Neha Sahgal, the lead researcher on the study, told me. “That’s the comparison that’s fascinating to me.” She highlighted the fact that whereas only 23 percent of European Christians say they believe in God with absolute certainty, 27 percent of American nones say this.

America is a country so suffused with faith that religious attributes abound even among the secular. Consider the rise of “atheist churches,” which cater to Americans who have lost faith in supernatural deities but still crave community, enjoy singing with others, and want to think deeply about morality. It’s religion, minus all the God stuff. This is a phenomenon spreading across the country, from the Seattle Atheist Church to the North Texas Church of Freethought. The Oasis Network, which brings together non-believers to sing and learn every Sunday morning, has affiliates in nine U.S. cities.

Last month, almost 1,000 people streamed into a [Atheist] church in San Francisco for an unprecedented event billed as “Beyoncé Mass.” Most were people of color and members of the LGBTQ community. Many were secular. They used Queen Bey’s songs, which are replete with religious symbolism, as the basis for a communal celebrationâ€"one that had all the trappings of a religious service. That seemed completely fitting to some, including one reverend who said, “Beyoncé is a better theologian than many of the pastors and priests in our church today.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...theists-religious-european-christians/560936/

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: SoldierofFortune on January 12, 2022, 05:01:32 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 12, 2022, 04:06:37 PM
Word salad ditto.

I gave you the data and stats on 94% of us thinking in a dualistic body soul/spirit way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IqYHiejTVM

If you wish, research whatever other stat you want.

You do not seem to know much about atheism.

Word salad.

t’s chat about the atheist religion.

Believers in the mainstream god religions often denigrate and discriminate against atheists, non-believers and rival religions on moral grounds. Godless mean without a moral sense to them.

I seek a solution to this problem, as the godless, statistically speaking, seem more moral, law abiding and peaceful than traditional mainstream religious believers who, ironically, claim a superior moral position, while having an inferior one. Statistics are quite clear on this.

As a Gnostic Christian, I get it from both sides. From believers who see me as an atheist and from atheists who see me as a believer. Both sides are wrong, given that Gnostic Christians are esoteric ecumenist and free-thinking naturalist, --- who hold no supernatural beliefs, --- regardless of the lies put into history by the inquisitors who decimated us, --- but never annihilated us. We are a religion of perpetual seekers of knowledge and wisdom, who raise the bar of excellence whenever we think we have the best ideological position.

This prevents the idol worshiping of the immoral gods, that the mainstream religions are prone to follow. This makes Gnostic Christianity a superior ideology. Perhaps this open-mindedness explains the hate towards us from god believers, as well as towards atheists and other non-believers that believers target.

Solutions to this endless denigration and discrimination are hard to come by, given that governments are not promoting any kind of dialog between the various religions and non-believers and allow religions to continue promoting vile homophobic and misogynous teachings.

To my way of thinking, be you following a theology and named god, a philosophy of a named philosopher, a religion that puts man above god and focuses on knowledge and wisdom like mine, a political tribe like Democrats and Republican, statism or any other thinking system, --- all groups named are following an ideology, --- and can thus be seem and described as a religion.

It is thus proper English to call atheism a religion. In fact, given the stats, atheism is a more moral religion than most. I am thinking that if all atheist proudly took on the religion label, --- as their atheist churches are doing, --- more god believing religionist would likely opt for atheism as their religion so as to improve their moral sense.

Take your deserved bow my atheist friends. You are now second only to my own Gnostic Christianity. We Gnostic Christian did what I advise here before the inquisitors got to us and that may be why we were known as the only good Christians.

Regards
DL

Since following an ideology is a prerequisite of religion, atheism can be considered a religion, since atheists draws on philosophical ideologies to guide ideas, behaviors, and actions, like that of any religion. That is why atheist churches are called atheist churches.

Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians
A new study shows how poorly we understand the beliefs of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular.

Americans are deeply religious peopleâ€"and atheists are no exception. Western Europeans are deeply secular peopleâ€"and Christians are no exception.

These twin statements are generalizations, but they capture the essence of a fascinating finding in a new study about Christian identity in Western Europe. By surveying almost 25,000 people in 15 countries in the region, and comparing the results with data previously gathered in the U.S., the Pew Research Center discovered three things.

First, researchers confirmed the widely known fact that, overall, Americans are much more religious than Western Europeans. They gauged religious commitment using standard questions, including “Do you believe in God with absolute certainty?” and “Do you pray daily?”

Second, the researchers found that American “nones”â€"those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particularâ€"are more religious than European nones. The notion that religiously unaffiliated people can be religious at all may seem contradictory, but if you disaffiliate from organized religion it does not necessarily mean you’ve sworn off belief in God, say, or prayer.

The third finding reported in the study is by far the most striking. As it turns out, “American ‘nones’ are as religious asâ€"or even more religious thanâ€"Christians in several European countries, including France, Germany, and the U.K.”

“That was a surprise,” Neha Sahgal, the lead researcher on the study, told me. “That’s the comparison that’s fascinating to me.” She highlighted the fact that whereas only 23 percent of European Christians say they believe in God with absolute certainty, 27 percent of American nones say this.

America is a country so suffused with faith that religious attributes abound even among the secular. Consider the rise of “atheist churches,” which cater to Americans who have lost faith in supernatural deities but still crave community, enjoy singing with others, and want to think deeply about morality. It’s religion, minus all the God stuff. This is a phenomenon spreading across the country, from the Seattle Atheist Church to the North Texas Church of Freethought. The Oasis Network, which brings together non-believers to sing and learn every Sunday morning, has affiliates in nine U.S. cities.

Last month, almost 1,000 people streamed into a [Atheist] church in San Francisco for an unprecedented event billed as “Beyoncé Mass.” Most were people of color and members of the LGBTQ community. Many were secular. They used Queen Bey’s songs, which are replete with religious symbolism, as the basis for a communal celebrationâ€"one that had all the trappings of a religious service. That seemed completely fitting to some, including one reverend who said, “Beyoncé is a better theologian than many of the pastors and priests in our church today.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...theists-religious-european-christians/560936/

Regards
DL

As to body soul dualism;

I havent really thought about it, and made extensive reading related to the problem. But it seems to me the feeling almost universally exists stems from the perception of self, and the continuity of self: I grew into adulthood, and I am getting older. But the childhood memory tells me that child is me now, looking at the mirror, and old photos of mine, it is obvious that the seemingly different appereance is false.

And me is me as long as I have the past memory and continuum so far. if my arm was cut, it would be still me. Even if All the way below my neck was mechanical cyborg, me is still me.

But If I lost the memory of self, it is not me. I know this from under the alcohol influence experience. It is not me, my character changes.



Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Mike Cl on January 12, 2022, 05:22:15 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 12, 2022, 03:56:52 PM
The Bible, as a consolidation of many creeds, and wisdom sayings, tries to do what all books of wisdom try to have us do. Evolve to a better form.

The present idol worshiping mainstream religions prevent that.

We will return to better days and thinking soon.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL
I asked you what morality is--and you reprint an old post of yours.  It was nonsensical then as it is now.  So, you really don't know what morals are do you.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: trdsf on January 13, 2022, 06:45:46 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 12, 2022, 04:06:37 PM
Word salad ditto.
Ah, right into the predicted tu quoque.  You seem to really be fond of the sound of your own typing, to have thrown up so many words to say nothing at all.

Quote from: Greatest I am on January 12, 2022, 04:06:37 PM
I gave you the data and stats on 94% of us thinking in a dualistic body soul/spirit way.
You did no such thing.  I asked for studies, you pointed to videos and a nonexistent page at The Atlantic.  You may be shocked to learn this, but there's a difference between 'data' and 'oh, this sounds good' -- and in any case, The Atlantic is not a scientific journal.

Quote from: Greatest I am on January 12, 2022, 04:06:37 PM
You do not seem to know much about atheism.
You don't seem to know much, period.

Quote from: Greatest I am on January 12, 2022, 04:06:37 PM
t’s chat about the atheist religion.
And there is is.

There is no such thing as 'the atheist religion'.  Claiming it is makes no more sense than claiming that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Quote from: Greatest I am on January 12, 2022, 04:06:37 PM
To my way of thinking, be you following a theology and named god, a philosophy of a named philosopher, a religion that puts man above god and focuses on knowledge and wisdom like mine, a political tribe like Democrats and Republican, statism or any other thinking system, --- all groups named are following an ideology, --- and can thus be seem and described as a religion.
(emphasis added)

Your way of thinking is demonstrably wrong.  Following a philosophy may be a perfectly rational matter.  Your definition would include the scientific method as a religion.  And while there are religion-like traits among various secular groups (usually involving a cult of personality around a leader -- compare North Korea, Trumpists, and Stalinism), they are still not religions.

Regarding the highlighted section -- that's right up there with the smug arrogance of the extremist evangelicals, and right now I don't see much difference between them and you.  The absolute self-assurance of blind belief has the same stench, regardless of the belief.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: aitm on January 13, 2022, 09:11:39 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 12, 2022, 03:56:52 PM
The Bible, as a consolidation of many creeds, and wisdom sayings, tries to do what all books of wisdom try to have us do. Evolve to a better form.


Yea….I don’t think so. The last thing the ancient books of “ wisdom” (snorts) wanted to do….at least those of a religious nature was for man to evolve. They wanted them to remain in place, dutiful to the word and maintain the word and the way….and to pay them and give them the power to fuck you over.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 13, 2022, 10:10:44 AM
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on January 12, 2022, 05:01:32 PM
As to body soul dualism;

I havent really thought about it, and made extensive reading related to the problem.


Why do you see our substance dualism  as a problem?

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 13, 2022, 10:15:47 AM
Quote from: trdsf on January 13, 2022, 06:45:46 AM
Ah, right into the predicted tu quoque.  You seem to really be fond of the sound of your own typing, to have thrown up so many words to say nothing at all.
You did no such thing.  I asked for studies, you pointed to videos and a nonexistent page at The Atlantic.  You may be shocked to learn this, but there's a difference between 'data' and 'oh, this sounds good' -- and in any case, The Atlantic is not a scientific journal.
You don't seem to know much, period.
And there is is.

There is no such thing as 'the atheist religion'.  Claiming it is makes no more sense than claiming that not collecting stamps is a hobby.
(emphasis added)

Your way of thinking is demonstrably wrong.  Following a philosophy may be a perfectly rational matter.  Your definition would include the scientific method as a religion.  And while there are religion-like traits among various secular groups (usually involving a cult of personality around a leader -- compare North Korea, Trumpists, and Stalinism), they are still not religions.

Regarding the highlighted section -- that's right up there with the smug arrogance of the extremist evangelicals, and right now I don't see much difference between them and you.  The absolute self-assurance of blind belief has the same stench, regardless of the belief.

???

What is an atheist church, stupid?

What blind belief are you putting into me with all your personal garbage?

Be clear, or just fuck off, if all you want to do is go personal.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 13, 2022, 10:21:06 AM
Quote from: aitm on January 13, 2022, 09:11:39 AM
Yea….I don’t think so. The last thing the ancient books of “ wisdom” (snorts) wanted to do….at least those of a religious nature was for man to evolve. They wanted them to remain in place, dutiful to the word and maintain the word and the way….and to pay them and give them the power to fuck you over.

Religious and political principles are interchangeable.

All con artist principles look alike.

Politicians have maintained the Noble Lie for religions forever, so I see one as no better than the other con men terms of honesty.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on January 13, 2022, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 13, 2022, 10:10:44 AMWhy do you see our substance dualism  as a problem?
Do you ever wonder why people say two different types of things definitely exist but can ever only ever demonstrate the existence of one of them?
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 13, 2022, 10:38:41 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 13, 2022, 10:26:06 AM
Do you ever wonder why people say two different types of things definitely exist but can ever only ever demonstrate the existence of one of them?

No, given that most of us just accept our dual nature.

Telepathy, in my case, gave me the evidence and proof I needed to prove that concept to be real, in a certain way.

No. I do not visualize an immaterial copy of me.

Just what I project telepathically in terms of thoughts.

If you do not have a belief in telepathy, I understand.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 13, 2022, 10:55:36 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 13, 2022, 10:38:41 AM

No. I do not visualize an immaterial copy of me.

LOL.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Hydra009 on January 13, 2022, 11:33:58 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 13, 2022, 10:38:41 AMNo, given that most of us just accept our dual nature.
Right.  Just like how most of us just accept Santa or ghosts.

QuoteTelepathy, in my case, gave me the evidence and proof I needed to prove that concept to be real, in a certain way.
Well, the -pathy part is correct...
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: trdsf on January 13, 2022, 01:38:14 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 13, 2022, 10:15:47 AM
???

What is an atheist church, stupid?

What blind belief are you putting into me with all your personal garbage?

Be clear, or just fuck off, if all you want to do is go personal.

Regards
DL
Ah, name-calling.  You really do have nothing other than your own overweening sense of self-importance.  I gave my examples and reasoning, perfectly clearly.  You just don't like that you're so easily figured out, and so easily demonstrated to be in the wrong.

And nice hypocrisy there, calling me 'stupid' (not to mention other ad hominems you've committed against multiple people on this board) and then you have the gall to accuse me of getting personal.  Care to try again?  I mean, all I've done is demonstrate your ignorance, arrogance and hypocrisy with your own words, I added nothing you didn't actually say yourself.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: SoldierofFortune on January 14, 2022, 10:21:43 AM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 13, 2022, 10:10:44 AM
Why do you see our substance dualism  as a problem?

Regards
DL

It is a philosophical problem, you imbecile, not mine; and how is it yours the realm of philosophy?
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 14, 2022, 10:24:41 AM
Philosophy is the religion of atheists.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on January 14, 2022, 11:25:26 AM
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on January 14, 2022, 10:21:43 AM
It is a philosophical problem, you imbecile, not mine; and how is it yours the realm of philosophy?

Thanks for this.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: t.e.smith on April 20, 2022, 09:21:09 PM
I see nothing wrong with it as long as it is done politely. In fact we do have an obligation to spread the truth and help people leave religion.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 21, 2022, 02:32:22 AM
You can't inject people with some enlightenment, esp. when it is the most simple, basic one. People either feel the responsibility to understand the fundamentals of existence as much as they can as a being   part of it, or not. Under normal circumstances, that is an instinct. I exclude people under oppression/ in extreme situations.

The problem with it -and a mass scale one- in a nutshell that they think they're required to be convinced personally with their fairy tale self importance-worth -in a clueless way- and it is somebody else's job; so naturally, that nonbelievers live for this notion and this arrives to the point of having nonbelief constitutes an agenda. This is the dynamic of a religion.




Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Greatest I am on April 25, 2022, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: t.e.smith on April 20, 2022, 09:21:09 PMI see nothing wrong with it as long as it is done politely. In fact we do have an obligation to spread the truth and help people leave religion.


I do not think the religious care about the truth.

They definitely do not like the moral truth that says that their genocidal god is evil.

How do you even begin to convert a person who things a genocidal character is somehow a good character?

I try to and get shit on all the time.

Have you ever converted someone?

After many attempts, I only have a few successes.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: SGOS on April 27, 2022, 07:44:29 AM
I never converted anyone.  Granted, I don't try that hard, and when I attack religious nuttery, it's only about the irrational thinking.  After that, I don't really care.  All I want is for them to stay out of my hair.  So far government protects my right to freedom from religion.  Not perfectly, and there is a looming threat, but for now, I feel safe to believe only what reality tells me, and nothing else, unless a new superhero movie from Marvel comes to the theater. Then I engage my fantasies for an hour or two.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on April 27, 2022, 09:48:08 AM
I found that just by listening to people, such as my hillbilly cousins, I can discover whether they can be enlightened. I used to give out copies of Evolution for Total Idiots. Some of them had relatives find these books. I was ready for that and told the recipients to say "Who else but total idiots believe this shit?" The questioners never bothered opening the book, I think they were afraid of contamination or in danger of not getting their Heaven Ticket punched.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 03, 2022, 04:15:05 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on October 08, 2021, 01:46:39 AMForums are like public halls; if you burst into Bible Study Night at the Y and started shouting "scathing critiques" at them, what do you realistically think the outcome would be?

My opinion; it's annoying as hell when people do it here, so I don't care for us doing it to them there. Live and let live.

Yeah, I only argue (debate) with believers when they get in my face with whatever their brand of craziness is, and then I give them everything I've got. I never invade their space, but we all know how many come here!
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 03, 2022, 04:23:20 PM
Actually Shiranu, I like it when they come here to spew their pap, since it's fun to dismantle it.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 03, 2022, 05:10:15 PM
Quote from: Cassia on October 09, 2021, 11:10:29 PMunholy unbeliever

Is there any other kind?

;)
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 03, 2022, 05:32:02 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on November 30, 2021, 10:05:56 AMI agree that when a person becomes an adult, he will put away the things of children, like the supernatural.

Regards
DL



Well, that's what "the Apostle" Paul said, but I've seen no evidence of it.
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 03, 2022, 06:44:10 PM
Quote from: Cassia on December 08, 2021, 05:41:55 PMFuck all the gods and people who wanna shove all that bullshit nonesense in our faces. Not worth one minute of thought to anyone with a real brain. Each 'sect' with their "crafted angle" all lead back to the same centroid....a stinky pile of poop.
Quote from: Cassia on December 08, 2021, 05:41:55 PMa stinky pile of poop.

Is there any other kind?

;)
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 03, 2022, 06:55:31 PM
Quote from: Cassia on December 09, 2021, 12:03:20 AM("btw; what church do you go to?")

When people nowadays ask about my religion, I tell them I'm a Nullifidian, just to confuse them.  ;)
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 03, 2022, 07:45:20 PM
Quote from: SGOS on December 19, 2021, 05:47:57 PMand there were a couple of memory testing exercises, but they only made up maybe less than 5% of the test.

"...and if you say the words in the right order you get extra points."

;)
Title: Re: Is it wrong to tell Christians what's wrong with their religion?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 03, 2022, 08:56:21 PM
Quote from: Greatest I am on January 13, 2022, 10:38:41 AMIf you do not have a belief in telepathy, I understand.



Indeed, I do not. Thanks for your understanding.