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Catholic Church "Miracles"

Started by Paolo, December 07, 2020, 12:58:43 PM

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Paolo

Quote from: Cassia on December 18, 2020, 01:00:20 PM
In any event the scripture promised a miraculous return of the savior during the lifetimes of the disciples. Didn't happen. Next.

Only partly true, according to some apologists. The doctrine of partial preterism seems to be quite popular among some theological circles in the interwebz.
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Cassia

Quote from: Paolo on December 18, 2020, 01:29:55 PM
Only partly true, according to some apologists. The doctrine of partial preterism seems to be quite popular among some theological circles in the interwebz.
Being a xtian apologist is a very tough job. Not much to work with. My personal favorite is Aristides of Athens, 125 AD. Trashes the Greeks, "Barbarians", and Jews. Goes on to call the Egyptians the stupidest of all. Seems to me he is saying his god is bigger than all the others. Reminds me of that song "Big Time" by Peter Gabriel.

Baruch

#62
Quote from: Cassia on December 18, 2020, 01:00:20 PM
Christianity did implement improvements, no doubt. Borrowing the pre-historic logic for human sacrifice as atonement and appeasement, at least they imposed a final scapegoat. Of course needless self-sacrifice as imitation of the scapegoat persists as does that yearnful expectation for the end times. It is a moral flaw to place your transgressions onto anyone else. We don't allow it in our judicial systems. How could anyone find the central tenant of this religion moral?. In any event the scripture promised a miraculous return of the savior during the lifetimes of the disciples. Didn't happen. Next.

Post-Christians are the flip side of Pre-Christian aka Pagans ;-)  The idea that progress has happened, is Heaven's Gate and Realian fantasies.  Even less respectable than Scientology.  Back then the gods were on Mt Olympus, now they live on another planet.

Ancient Christian apologists, pre-Emperor Theodosius (381 CE), they were thinking like ancient people, dealing with contemporary issues (some of which are perennial for all human beings).  They aren't useful as cultural appropriation tools for 21st century atheists ;-)  The alternative was purely theoretical ... Plato's Republic aka communism.  There is a lot of Plato's Republic in the Christian scam, see Myth of Er (Gospels) and Guardians (aka priesthood).  Christianity wasn't created by illiterate Galilean Jews.  Greek educated Hellenistic Jews, like Paul, were responsible.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Guardians are now the space cadets of our glorious new Space Force.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

aitm

Quote from: Paolo on December 18, 2020, 04:49:46 AM
This deserves a more detailed response than I am able to give right now..
Yeah, well let us know what your pastors tell you to say will ya? We all wait with “baited-breath”.....ðŸ™,,
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on December 19, 2020, 04:50:50 PM
Guardians are now the space cadets of our glorious new Space Force.

You prefer the Viet Cong no doubt ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Paolo

Quote from: aitm on December 19, 2020, 06:04:51 PM
Yeah, well let us know what your pastors tell you to say will ya? We all wait with “baited-breath”.....ðŸ™,,

What? I thought I was supposed to be Catholic. Why would I consult a pastor?

''Skeppies'' sure like to change their minds a lot!
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

aitm

Quote from: Paolo on December 22, 2020, 02:59:49 AM
What? I thought I was supposed to be Catholic. Why would I consult a pastor?

''Skeppies'' sure like to change their minds a lot!
Good point, talk to a priest or even better, a bishop cause, they wear impressive hats. Surely a sign of knowledge,
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Baruch

Quote from: aitm on December 22, 2020, 08:23:56 AM
Good point, talk to a priest or even better, a bishop cause, they wear impressive hats. Surely a sign of knowledge,

Those are court hats/clothes, from the 4th century Roman Empire.  The Emperor would have you killed, in a Christian way, for doubting his organization ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Paolo

Quote from: aitm on December 22, 2020, 08:23:56 AM
Good point, talk to a priest or even better, a bishop cause, they wear impressive hats. Surely a sign of knowledge,

Sure, but they wearing ridiculous hats is surely not an argument against their position!
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Cassia

Paolo, I am curious...if are you having doubts about your faith and/or the Catholic institution?


Baruch

Quote from: Paolo on December 22, 2020, 01:45:53 PM
Sure, but they wearing ridiculous hats is surely not an argument against their position!

Of course it is, only fake-French people with fake French accents, holding a cigarette in a funny way and declaiming Existentialist poetry are cool, dude ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Paolo

Quote from: Cassia on December 22, 2020, 02:32:34 PM
Paolo, I am curious...if are you having doubts about your faith and/or the Catholic institution?

What sort of demented reading you employed to *conclude* that I even have any *faith* to begin with?
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

drunkenshoe

#73
Paolo, I'm not interested in your faith or the lack of it. However, I'm curious why are you suspicious about this particular one.

There is this preserved piece of meat which was identified (?) as the tongue (?) of a man (?). This man is a fransiscan friar who was buried in 13th century. Wiki says, he was declared a saint a year after his death and given evangelical doctorate in 1946.

The first things to ask...how can anyone know this remains belong to that man or even a human being for that matter? Is it possible to make these tests with the material at hand? Did they do it? How do they even really know who is the man in the grave to begin with? How did he die? It could be any kind of thing that affected a piece of his body. Bacteria, virus... maybe a comibination of various things or something happened after his death where the corpse was preserved? ...blah blah are the first things you should be thinking.

But let's think think that the remains belong to the fransiscan friar who was buried in 13th century. And the tongue is a tongue and it is really his tongue.

Let's make up stories.

The thing is, highly likely he was not to be buried just after his death. Because assuming the records are correct, he was a well known figure among the clergy and he comes from a rich family. Yeah, I bet it was easy and something extra celebrated to become a fransiscan friar when you come from a rich family. Anyway, the point is people would want to see his corpse and pray to it, touch to it...etc. So you could say that he wasn't buried just like that, probably he was buried when he really had to be buried. But then we also know his grave was opened many times while only one opening got famous after decades and that was when they 'noticed' the preserved tongue.

As you know, when living organisms die, they tend to decompose fast; stink, not to mention look awful...etc. which people have figured out veery looong time ago. Another thing people have figured verry looong time ago -thousands years before Christianity- is how to delay/stop that process as much possible with what they have. In some cultures, they have become so good at that, 3000 years later corpses have changed history. I'm refering to the cocain mummies.

If we accept the material and information at hand as correct/true we could be facing a piece of meat that is smoked and cooked with a great amount of incense burn in confined space, in this particular case just got cooked the right amount in his mouth, considering he wasn't a martyr, so he wasn't drowned, burned or hanged, because then highly likley his tongue would protrude and the result would be different. But then why don't all those saints have some cooked and preserved miracle parts? Because they can't make everyone a mircale saint, then it would lose value; its power. They already have too many saints going around. There is a need of different stations.

Moving further. After being placed in the grave which probbaly not an ordinary one as this man is important, a saint, in an air tight sarcophagus or something like that the tongue continued to be preserved much better than the usual with no oxygen.

Then during all those openings and closings -like checking a 30-40 year old oven- someone noticed the tongue that and told the others. Hoooray! All this people's jobs are to look for stuff like this. Because the someone who noticed that is a highly likely a someone who had seen a lot of corpses before and know there was something different with this one from experience.

In the 13th century, a miracle is not just the first thing to come to these people's mind, esp. in that circle, it is something they live for. And by that I don't mean they so innocently believe in it so much that's what they see considering the lack of knowledge and science, but they KNOW how powerful a miracle is as a political power and maintaining order.

So, among all those incense burn smoked saint meat, when a piece looks a bit different than the others, it is a great opportunity. Esp. when an already accepted character with a known background, a rich family is involved. The theological rationalisation is ready. They are the holy men and witnessing/interpreting god's sign for the stupid folk. Can you imagine the benefits and profits of that smoked meat? People still visit it to pray in the 21st century and probably pay for it. Actually now, apparently the tongue visists people around the world for them to visit it. (Take that, dialectic materialism! Baruch, that's your cue.)

Let's move on a bit more.

In general human culture, a species that constantly destroys, do unspeakable things for power and resources since it was able to stand, would it be a strecth to think that some people who know how to preserve a piece of meat for a long time, took a piece of meat, processed it, slipped it in the right place at the right time to reap the benefits and profits?

Does it matter? Do people and/or the church need any of these, or any scientific research for people to believe in miracles or reject them?

We can make up tons of stories about it, but it is really not important which one could be the correct explanation, close or not, or how successfully you debunk something like this. Because that's not the point for people who believe in this bullshit. This bullshit exists because debunking doesn't work. 

And as far as this forum is concerned, if you come here and approach to a piece of meat that is supposedly belonged to a man who died 800 years ago with sort of questioning in terms of what could have happened there and then, people would snap at you and make fun of it because it's complete bullshit. Questioning 'the case of the tongue of St Anthony' is not scepticism.

And beyond that, in my personal opinion, no atheist, no secular person or a scientist is responsible for debunking a bullshit like this.

It's like asking if vampires do exist and demand an explanation on how do they know that they don't? I have had this conversation with educated, secular people.

A- Do you think vampires and wendigos exist?
B- No, they don't. They're fantasy creatures created by humans to tell stories.
A- I'm not saying I believe in them. I'm just saying that we really don't know, do we? So how can you be so sure? Has anyone successfuly debunk the existence of these creatures?
B- Yes, we do really know that they don't exist. Because drinking human blood can't sustain human body, let alone give it some super powers and it will probbaly make you sick. Also there are no super powers. There is a reason why even the healthiest people are allowed to donate blood once in every 3 months, one unit at most. If you lose around 20% of your blood you'd die. If you try to live on raw human flesh, you'd get very sick and end in a hospital. 
A- You are being closed minded and dogmatic, we really don't know do we?
B-...

Do you have an idea how many people have come here to this forum with similar 'cases' in the last 15 years? Every kind of people. People who demand dinasour fossils to be proved real, because obviously we don't know for sure if Jews haven't buried them to con the whole world. People who demand the human evolution tree to be changed according the old testament prophets because obviously, idiot, heretic scientists can't get that these men are the original hominids and lived that long to support the evolutinary development of humans. People who demand quantum mechanics itself is the greatest proof that the world and most importantly, the universe is flat and holy scripture included that information thousands of years ago. People who are sure they have found the gltich in the matrix...etc.

And they ALL have blamed the members reacting to them sooner or later, at some point, with being closed minded, dogmatic assholes. Because almost none of them were actually here to question something, or get some answers, opinions...etc. They were all about what they think it is; because this one is different, something different than others. 

In short, when you offer an opinion on miracles in relation with science in a compatible, complimentary way, you sound like one of those people. 
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Cassia

Yeah, it was very common years ago on other atheist forums when fakes who pose as non believers and then submit posts completely inconsistent with that position. They give word play nonsense replies instead of simply stating their beliefs or lack of. What kind of atheist with half a noggin would bother with such obvious bullshit? Because to even consider this as a miracle means it ALL has to be true. So why not tell us what you do believe or not believe or else you are just full of bullshit.