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Catholic Church "Miracles"

Started by Paolo, December 07, 2020, 12:58:43 PM

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Mike Cl

Quote from: Paolo on December 17, 2020, 11:39:25 PM
Do you have anything better at your disposal to make reply of other than a fucking meme?
You are quite the delight to have a conversation with.  Your best stuff seems to be profanity.  Yeah--you are a real heavy weight. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Paolo

Quote from: Mike Cl on December 18, 2020, 12:10:07 AM
You are quite the delight to have a conversation with.  Your best stuff seems to be profanity.  Yeah--you are a real heavy weight.

Quit being a fucking faggot (ooops! Did I JUST ''profaned'' again?!) and stop looking at the way I write things, and instead pay attention to the damn arguments. Pussy.
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

GSOgymrat

#47
Quote from: Paolo on December 17, 2020, 11:39:25 PM
Do you have anything better at your disposal to make reply of other than a fucking meme?

Okay.

The claim is when the crypt containing the corpse of a Portuguese Catholic priest who died in 1231 was opened in 1263, priests found his body had been reduced to dust and bones, but his tongue was intact and life-like. Which is more plausible:

- This is a story that has been exaggerated over several hundred years by people who are motivated to justify their faith.
- This is a complete, premeditated lie committed by the Catholic church.
- This is a hoax committed by an individual who, for whatever reason, decided to plant a preserved tongue inside the crypt without the church's knowledge.
- The people who prepared his corpse were by some means able to preserve his tongue.
- By some process consistent with the physical laws of the universe the tongue did not decompose.
- A supernatural being decided to magically preserve the tongue of this priest for reasons unknown.
- The Christian god decided to preserve the tongue to communicate to his flock that he exists.

I don't believe a story passed down for hundreds of years by superstitious people who are highly motivated to believe this magically preserved tongue is evidence of their particular god. There is nothing I find compelling about this story.

Hydra009

#48
Quote from: Paolo on December 17, 2020, 11:37:41 PM''As well''? What part of my affirmations and/or posts didn't I justify, you little scumbag?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Co-z2qxY4

Paolo

#49
That cartoon adequately fits your mental age, I guess. Jeez...
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Paolo

Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 18, 2020, 12:51:49 AM
Okay.

The claim is when the crypt containing the corpse of a Portuguese Catholic priest who died in 1231 was opened in 1263, priests found his body had been reduced to dust and bones, but his tongue was intact and life-like. Which is more plausible:

- This is a story that has been exaggerated over several hundred years by people who are motivated to justify their faith.
- This is a complete, premeditated lie committed by the Catholic church.
- This is a hoax committed by an individual who, for whatever reason, decided to plant a preserved tongue inside the crypt without the church's knowledge.
- The people who prepared his corpse were by some means able to preserve his tongue.
- By some process consistent with the physical laws of the universe the tongue did not decompose.
- A supernatural being decided to magically preserve the tongue of this priest for reasons unknown.
- The Christian god decided to preserve the tongue to communicate to his flock that he exists.

I don't believe a story passed down for hundreds of years by superstitious people who are highly motivated to believe this magically preserved tongue is evidence of their particular god. There is nothing I find compelling about this story.

Woah! Finally a post that contains actual substance and not just meaningless ad hominem. This deserves a more detailed response than I am able to give right now, but rest assured, I will give this proper attention. Thanks.
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

SGOS

Christianity must have miracles.  Otherwise, more than half of the foundation of its bullshit is exposed as a sham.  The Catholic Church has a team of priests who are called upon to identify miracles.  These are holy men, and any scientific interests they may have are secondary to their mission. To show that miracles are happening means God is not dead, and the Church can still save your soul.  Holy men must identify miracles.  If they don't, they are out of job. 

But it's hard to identify miracles, at least as hard as it is to find little green Martians.  So how do these guys identify miracles?  Well, they travel to the sites.  They collaborate.  They interview locals, and when all the facts and data are carefully assembled and the explanation for the event cannot be understood, it has to be a miracle.  Why does it have to be a miracle, you may ask?  Well if you don't know why an event happened, what other explanation can there be?  It's a basic simple deduction, and that means it has to be a miracle.  But if there are other explanations, even if they are already known, they must be ignored.  Holy men are best equipped to identify what must be ignored.  They are highly trained professionals and others should not attempt to do this on their own.

Paolo

Quote from: Simon Moon on December 14, 2020, 02:47:15 PM
Again, you fail to understand basic logic.

What you are describing is a textbook example of confirmation bias.

Start with your conclusion (there are miracles associated with the Catholic saints), then look for examples that seem to demonstrate your conclusion. Ignore others examples that seem to refute your conclusion.

This is the exact opposite of a skeptical procedure.

You could have said all this without the cute little insult at the beginning, ''you fail to understand basic logic'', as if you were somehow a direct disciple of Aristotle or something. Hard to take the rest of the comment seriously after this.
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Cassia

#53
We are talking about an organization that dug up the rotting corpse of an ex-pope and put it on trial. A deacon standing behind him was "providing" his testimony.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod
Not a single case of stigmata ever acknowledged by the medical community. I would think a true stigmatist would run, not walk to be evaluated by science, so a skeptical party may proclaim this miracle. Instead one time a skeptic managed superficial observation they find one-sided, superficial wounds that cease flowing immediately.

https://skepticalinquirer.org/2004/03/the-stigmata-of-lilian-bernas/
Not enough carbolic acid perhaps.
Invoking the blessings of Jesus, Pio writes baldly: "I am in need of 200g or 300g of carbolic acid for sterilising. I pray you to send it to me on Sunday."
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/padre-pio-faked-his-stigmata-acid-397811.html

Baruch

#54
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 18, 2020, 12:51:49 AM
Okay.

The claim is when the crypt containing the corpse of a Portuguese Catholic priest who died in 1231 was opened in 1263, priests found his body had been reduced to dust and bones, but his tongue was intact and life-like. Which is more plausible:

- This is a story that has been exaggerated over several hundred years by people who are motivated to justify their faith.
- This is a complete, premeditated lie committed by the Catholic church.
- This is a hoax committed by an individual who, for whatever reason, decided to plant a preserved tongue inside the crypt without the church's knowledge.
- The people who prepared his corpse were by some means able to preserve his tongue.
- By some process consistent with the physical laws of the universe the tongue did not decompose.
- A supernatural being decided to magically preserve the tongue of this priest for reasons unknown.
- The Christian god decided to preserve the tongue to communicate to his flock that he exists.

I don't believe a story passed down for hundreds of years by superstitious people who are highly motivated to believe this magically preserved tongue is evidence of their particular god. There is nothing I find compelling about this story.

That is a cultural meme you and I don't share.  Despise anyone who isn't the same culture as you, same education level as you etc ... more polite than condemning people for having a different skin color, but same motivation.

It was a regular belief, even into the 20th century, that well preserved body parts (or the whole body) upon exhumation, was a "sign" of immortality of the soul.  Apostle Paul completely denied this (you get a spiritual body), but the meme goes back to the ancient Egyptians (hence mummification).  Hence zombies and other un-dead stories from the Church.  The current practice of burial in a casket and formaldehyde is a direct carrying on of Egyptian burial practices (for the Pharaoh and later the rest of the Elite) from 5000 years ago, still going on today.

PS, I think some stigmata are real, but are psychosomatic of course.  Only a seriously religious Catholic could get them.  Why?  I see it as egomania.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

#55
Quote from: Paolo on December 18, 2020, 08:03:51 AM
You could have said all this without the cute little insult at the beginning, ''you fail to understand basic logic'', as if you were somehow a direct disciple of Aristotle or something. Hard to take the rest of the comment seriously after this.

Basic logic of ... I am a genius and you are a moron ;-)  You are Ok with me, Paolo.

"WE ARE SLOW TO MASTER THE GREAT TRUTH THAT EVEN NOW CHRIST IS, AS IT WERE, WALKING AMONG US, AND BY HIS HAND, OR EYE, OR VOICE, BIDDING US TO FOLLOW HIM. WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT HIS CALL IS A THING THAT TAKES PLACE NOW. WE THINK IT TOOK PLACE IN THE APOSTLES' DAYS, BUT WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN IT; WE DO NOT LOOK FOR IT IN OUR OWN CASE."  - JOHN HENRY NEWMAN

When a Pope meets an anti-Pope stay away, there is a big explosion ;-p

People, even Christians, prefer the Seven Deadly Sins to the Seven Cardinal Virtues.  We want free money and free drugs.  We worship a different dead Jew (Karl Marx) and worship our own self uncritically (but are critical of all the rest).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

GSOgymrat

#56
Quote from: Baruch on December 18, 2020, 09:41:14 AM
That is a cultural meme you and I don't share.  Despise anyone who isn't the same culture as you, same education level as you etc ... more polite than condemning people for having a different skin color, but same motivation.

I acknowledged my bias in a previous post: I don't believe in the supernatural. I don't grant exceptions based on culture or educational level, one reason being that doing so is patronizing. I don't "despise anyone who isn't the same culture", I'm disagreeing with the idea that a preserved tongue is evidence of the supernatural or of the Christian god.

Let me add that I didn't start this discussion. I didn't post "Look how stupid Catholics are." The question is regarding whether the tongue of Saint Anthony is convincing to atheists and I explained why I don't find it convincing.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Paolo on December 18, 2020, 12:22:26 AM
Quit being a fucking faggot (ooops! Did I JUST ''profaned'' again?!) and stop looking at the way I write things, and instead pay attention to the damn arguments. Pussy.
For you bluster seems to be your 'argument'.  Look up the meaning of 'discussion' and try to have one sometime.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

#58
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 18, 2020, 10:14:20 AM
I acknowledged my bias in a previous post: I don't believe in the supernatural. I don't grant exceptions based on culture or educational level, one reason being that doing so is patronizing. I don't "despise anyone who isn't the same culture", I'm disagreeing with the idea that a preserved tongue is evidence of the supernatural or of the Christian god.

Of course, it is clear evidence ("sign"/physical metaphor) of the Egyptian religion, the original one (and ignore those Sumerians etc).  I will believe people aren't egomaniacs (superiority complex masking inferiority complex) when the last critic chokes on the last criticism.  Of course ancient Egyptians, even in the New Kingdom, didn't all get proper burial.  You had to be rich to afford a copy of the Book of the Dead in your coffin.  There has been no progress in 5000 years, once government and the city were invented, they can't be unseen.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cassia

#59
Christianity did implement improvements, no doubt. Borrowing the pre-historic logic for human sacrifice as atonement and appeasement, at least they imposed a final scapegoat. Of course needless self-sacrifice as imitation of the scapegoat persists as does that yearnful expectation for the end times. It is a moral flaw to place your transgressions onto anyone else. We don't allow it in our judicial systems. How could anyone find the central tenant of this religion moral?. In any event the scripture promised a miraculous return of the savior during the lifetimes of the disciples. Didn't happen. Next.