Florida Gay Nightclub Mass Shooting

[Shiranu]

[Shiranu]

Another emotional argument. You avoid addressing my point and try to paint my position as something other than what it is because you have no response to my actual argument.

>49 people were killed because of senseless access... just fucking absolutely senseless access to weapons of mass destruction....
>"Guys, guys, guys... we cant let those silly emotions get in the way! There is no room for that!"

No, fuck that. It's not just 49 people... it's 49 people, with lives... fucking dreams, hopes, sorrows, regrets, plans for their lives, their future, shit just even what they would be doing tomorrow... who are dead. It's not some just random fucking number on the internet, some fucking click of the "4" and the "9". It is actual human lives that are being deemed less fucking important than being able to buy a piece of plastic and synthetics designed to kill humans. Fuck anyone who thinks emotions shouldn't play apart in that. Fuck them. That is the worst fucking argument in the history of man, that we shouldn't show emotion when 49 people are murdered in cold blood because you can be a fucking terrorist watch list motherfucker and buy a god damned assault rifle like it's candy. Nah. Fuck that, and fuck motherfuckers who think that emotions are something to be ashamed of and don't have place in decision making.

[trdsf]

You want no more guns, or at least no more semi-autos and no more handguns? Great so do I. We're in absolute agreement. So now how do we get there?

It's pretty straightforward what needs to be done:

• - Close the gun show loopholes
• - Reinstate the assault rifle ban
• - Require registration, insurance and licensing like we do to drive a car -- and for that matter, it's appalling that my barber has to prove to the state that they're safe to be allowed to wield a pair of scissors, and the guy across the hall from my apartment hasn't got to prove a damned thing to wield a .45
• - Lifetime ban for perpetrators of domestic violence, certain mental illnesses, certain misdemeanors, all felonies

What's lacked is the political will.  That means at a minimum going out and electing those who want to enact these sorts of basic and common-sense rules and regulations.

[Johan]

What the US needs to do is make the mass manufacture, sale, and owning of small, concealable weapons illegal - handguns. That would be a start.

Well I agree that would indeed be a start. Getting universal health care that's free for everyone and eliminating the homeless issue would probably be easier and faster than getting a complete ban on the manufacture of handguns but yeah, its a start. But banning the manufacture would make it way more difficult for a black market to exist, assuming of course that we also confiscate and destroy every handgun we can find.

Only the police and other government agents would be permitted to have and carry such weapons.

Where will police get them once we make them illegal to manufacture? So yeah we'd probably have to do away with that part and keep it legal for companies to make them don't you think? Which kind of puts that whole black market thing back in play or at least a lot closer to being in play. Not saying that's a deal breaker but I wouldn't exactly make me warm and fuzzy.

Penalties for having such weapons would have to be harsh: automatic decades in prison.

Yeah that would kind have to be a basic requirement in order for this to work. So we're going to need more prisons. Lots more. And all those prison guards are going to needs guns. Lots of guns. But yeah, the fear of automatic decades in prison would likely keep most people on the right side of the law.

But what about those who are on the wrong side of the law to begin with? When you have someone who is already in the mindset of being a criminal and you face that person with decades in prison just for having a gun in their possession, would that make them less likely to use said gun or more? I'm thinking a criminal with nothing left to lose is probably not going to worry too much about using the black market gun he just bought. Why worry? My life is over no matter what so fuck it. And again I'm not saying its a deal breaker but I do believe that all potential impacts of any legislation need to be considered. A law that makes criminals more likely to become violent is maybe not the best way to proceed if other alternatives exist.

You can have a riffle. You can carry it w/you, if you like. However, you must have a license for it - and you can't get a license for it unless you are of military age (18), have a clean criminal record, owe no fines to the state, owe no child support, and are a CITIZEN of the United States of America.

Bolt action long guns and split action shot guns only should be good enough for all legit needs of the law abiding.

But I'm still left with one question. How do we get there. Because what you've laid out looks great. On paper. But in practical terms you might as well have said we just need to dig a hole to China because you've got about as much chance of that happening as you do any of the laws you've proposed here with the current political system we have. So how do we actually get there? Because wishing ain't working and so far, that's all we've got.

[drunkenshoe]

Shiranu, human nature is evolved to produce coping mechanisms of all kinds. That's how it survived. It works the very same for societies against big issues they face.

The gun issue(s) in the US have many aspects from historical to political, individual to cultural, economical to media, geography, religion the size of the country...etc. AND yes also an emotional side to each of these aspects. And people and societies cope with these in many different ways, but usually by compartmentalising, rationalising and prioritising.

What's people's priority? Themselves. Their families. Most people have kids and husbands or wives, they work 9 to 5 and try to raise their children and survive. Yes we can ciriticise most of their perspective and perception of the issue severely, but that doesn't change the fact that treating them a country full of psychopath gun lovers is exactly the same coping mechanism with the mass of people treating every perpetrator -be it a tarrorist or a mass murderer- as a pyschopath to distance themselves from the issue and not to face the countless dynamics behind this.

Yes, I agree with you that when innocent people get murdered for nothing, people should get very angry, very upset...and just get to move and loook ways to stop it immediately. Well, unfortunately this not how things work. you  know why, because this is the price of living in the modernised world. We are not living in a village, so we could gather around the able men solve the problem, assembly an emergency council and slide into an ideal socialistic system.

Yes, I am caricaturising it. Yes, there are many things to do, even little things that would have prevented a lot of bloodshed and horrific events in your country. I agree with you.


But I also want you to see something related to WHY you tend to see these events the way you do, besides what they really are. What is your priority in life? OK let's forget about you. Take me.

Who am I? What have I been doing all my life? I am a 40 year old woman who is completely the opposite of the culture she is living in and more, no kids, never married, never worked in a traditional job...someone who has/had the TIME and the LUXURY in her hand to rant about rationally and emotionally all human issues everywhere around the world. It's very easy for me to get out of my shoes and rant about gun issue there or some other fucked up issue here...Am I working hard? Yes. Am I broke and severely underpaid? Yes. None of these change the fact that I have the luxury of just being responsible for myself in the end. This is a very little minority in the world. This is priceless. According to the world standards, esp. the one I live in I am fucking 'spoilt' like hell.

What am I? I am the fucking LEISURE CLASS. Just like you are. The difference is I am aware of it because of age, you are just wallowing in 'oh I'm living in hell, people are evil, I am evil, fuck the world, fuck humanity!' and extend to this to anything you can get your hands on, inflate it. No,  I am not saying 'you are emotional'. Being emotional and vulnerable is a good thing. I am highly emotional and vulnerable. That's why I am like this.

You wanna do something about this issue? Do it. You don't want to do something about this issue? Don't do it. You want to get drunk/high an 'ponder' why things are the way they are? DO it. Do whatever you want. Just know that you are NOT going through something special neither about yourself, nor about the issue AND get that time is running out. Because at some point, you stop being a sensitive intellectual, but turn into a whinning spoilt little kid that can't grow up.

You know what? I don't agree with Johan almost on anything, I think he is a high level American idiot and I prefer his female part. But all these years we have been squabbling around these threads, he is probably the only poster who actually responded to your personal threads or the way you personalise certain issues with real terms in respect of your culture which is pretty much same with what I have been trying to say in completely different 'language'. But you do not listen.

Do you have to? Of course you don't. But please get that personalising these issues has become YOUR coping mechanism against life and things you do not want to deal with. It's stupid. Waste of time. Destructive. Painful. Not to mention meaningless and unproductive. I know what it is first hand.

Get annoyed. Get pissed off at me, you know where I am. Defend yourself. Do not turn into yourself and continue to wallow from the point given above.

[Baruch]

Why does it always have to be one extreme or the other? Either a free for all or a complete ban? Why not sensible registration after a background check? Only people who have something to hide would be against such a thing. While it would not be a panacea, it would certainly help.

We had a ban on assault weapons, but the crazies got that overturned.  Now the genie is out of the bottle.  House to house assault by SWAT teams is the only way to get rid of them.  Criminals don't obey stupid laws, and most non-criminals don't obey either ... they are pre-criminals, until you push them hard.

GB is a police state like Israel.  The USA is close behind.  Is Canada like that?  But what if we don't want to live in a police state?  What if what happened in WW II and before dominates all my thoughts?  Sleep easy, there was only one Hitler, and it can never happen again.

Most laws are ineffective, they just make SJWs feel superior.  Having more ineffective laws regarding guns is not a help, it is a distraction.  If you actually want to get rid of guns in the US, even of some guns, you have to have a full on dictatorship, with a dictator who doesn't tolerate guns or particular guns.  The problem is "free people", and some people who don't appreciate the bad things "free people" do.  So either get rid of "free people" or tell the SJWs to go away.  There is no permanent solution to human violence, except extermination of the species.

[Mike Cl]

We all know what needs to be done.  But it just isn't going to happen.  Why?  Because money is free speech.  Since the corps that make money from the sale of guns and ammo have a hell of a lot more free speech than all of us combined, then it just isn't going to happen.  These corps are free speaking to all of the rep and senators, and at all levels, so the people who draft the legislation to change any of this hear them loud and clear.  It is always the same.  Killings happen.  The powers that be tell us that we have to respect the mourners by not talking about it; we need to be proactive and pray for the victims and the families.  Then the legislatures around the country have their moments of silence.  The NRA (the front for the corp. that make a profit from all of this ) then rails that this is the time the govt. wants to take your arms--be on guard.  And the sales for guns and ammo goes up.  Then we do it all again.  We are simply a sick, fucking, stupid society in this area especially.   

[chill98]

Outside of the club, the killer was confronted by an armed, trained, gun wielding off duty policeman who, in an act of self-preservation, retreated.

I am unsure of florida laws so I will use my own local laws as an example.  It is likely the club had a sign posted "no guns allowed" which the patrons of the establishment seem to have obeyed.

The killer was employed at a security firm, and according to wiki,  supposedly passed whatever psychological testing given as a condition of employment.

Flags were issued and research by the top law enforcement of the USA concluded no basis.

A local news broadcast claims, since the assault weapons ban was lifted, somewhere between 5 and 10 million of these guns have been sold -- personally, I was surprised they could not give a more accurate number on the actual weapons sold but they continued--  14 mass shooting events since that time have involved assault weapons.

Point being the presence of a trained officer of the law did not stop this event.
Point being psychological testing did not stop this individual.
Point being at least 1 million assault weapons are out there and are seldom used in mass murder;  it would seem cars are used more often as an assault weapon.
Point being there is no 100% failsafe solution to who is/isnt a potential mass murderer.

Outrage at the actions taken by this particular kook is legitimate.  Part of me wishes he had survived to face the long process of inflicting the DP - without knowing for sure, I don't imagine florida death row is a pleasant experience, part of me is glad he is dead - families do not have to tolerate his living.

But to address the theme of "make it a law/Ban it"...

We've probably all worked for a boss/had a teacher who took that approach.  Somebody broke the rules so NONE OF YOU are going to get to leave early/go on the outing/etc.  That kind of retribution wasn't fair/just then and it isn't now.

5-10 million assault weapons owners are not responsible for the actions of this particular kook.  And as a side note, I do not own an assault weapon.  A ban on them would not affect my life one bit.  But I am not supportive of the calls to ban them now (or then).

[FaithIsFilth]

GB is a police state like Israel.  The USA is close behind.  Is Canada like that?

This isn't Canada anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5GZCl7JYUk

[reasonist]

Ahh Toronto... the guy is provoking the cops and the cops are just talking for 4 minutes. But Toronto, or York a suburb, is the Canadian Chicago.

"Reuters

Australia on Thursday marked the 20th anniversary of a mass shooting which led to strict gun controls that have in turn led to a huge decline in gun murders, undermining claims in the United States that such curbs are not the answer.

The chances of being murdered by a gun in Australia plunged to 0.15 per 100,000 people in 2014 from 0.54 per 100,000 people in 1996, a decline of 72 percent, a Reuters analysis of Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showed.

In 1996, Australia had 311 murders, of which 98 were with guns. In 2014, with the population up from about 18 million to 23 million, Australia had 238 murders, of which 35 were with guns.

It was the April 28, 1996, shooting deaths by a lone gunman of 35 people in and around a cafe at a historic former prison colony in Tasmania that prompted the government to buy back or confiscate a million firearms and make it harder to buy new ones.

The country has had no mass shootings since."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-guns-idUSKCN0XP0HG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

[SGOS]

I want to be ready when the government sends tanks to get my guns.  Currently, I mastering my dive for cover, because everyone needs to do that when under tank fire.  If you want to get from point A to point B across a vulnerable opening, you need to break out on the count of three, and then when you are two to three yards from point B, you go into a dive that ends in a smooth roll.  They can't shoot you while you are doing a somersault in mid air that lands you safely behind a bail of straw.  Me and Bubba and the guys practice all the time.  Bubba is good at it and looks really cool.

[PopeyesPappy]

I am unsure of florida laws so I will use my own local laws as an example.  It is likely the club had a sign posted "no guns allowed" which the patrons of the establishment seem to have obeyed.

Unless they've changed it recently it is illegal for customers to carry guns in bars in Florida even if they have a carry permit.

[Munch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVrfGga7BUc

good'ol dusty.

[Baruch]

Unless they've changed it recently it is illegal for customers to carry guns in bars in Florida even if they have a carry permit.

Alcohol and guns usually don't mix well.

[Baruch]

This isn't Canada anymore.

Was that all about harassing a vagrant?  Was Canada filled with hoboes before?