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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/florida-nightclub-shooting-hostages-taken-by-attacker-a7077671.html

Has anyone heard of this?

QuoteA gunman has reportedly taken several hostages after opening fire at a gay nightclub in Florida. Local police said there were "multiple injuries" at Pulse in Orlando and warned people to stay away from the area. A Facebook post by the club posted at 2am local time (7am UK time) said: "Everyone get out of Pulse and keep running".

Local TV reporter Stewart Moore said "more than 20 people have been shot" with an assault rifle and the man remains barricaded inside the club with hostages.

He said there are fears the shooter may be wearing a bomb and the Orlando Fire Department's bomb squad and hazardous material team are at the scene.

Mr Moore said people are still trapped inside the club with gunshot wounds.

A police dispatcher told Agence France Presse: "There are injuries. I am not sure if there are any deceased at this time".

Witnesses reported seeing the shooter open fire around 2am.

Anthony Torres said on Facebook he "made it out just barely as we started to hear fire being shot" and "people are screaming that people are dead".

He said people were being "loaded up onto stretchers" outside the club.

One witness, Rosie Feba, told the Orlando Sentinel her girlfriend had said someone was shooting but she had assumed it was part of the music at first.

She said: "She told me someone was shooting. Everyone was getting on the floor.

"I told her I didn't think it was real, I thought it was just part of the music, until I saw fire coming out of his gun."

Ms Feba and her girlfriend ran out of the club, helping a man who had been shot on the way out.

The couple were shaken but unhurt.

Another witness, Ricardo J Negron Almodovar, said: "I was there. Shooter opened fire at around 2:00am.

"People on the dance floor and bar got down on the floor and some of us who were near the bar and back exit managed to go out through the outdoor area and just ran.

"I am safely home and hoping everyone gets home safely as well".

He said the gunman had begun shooting at the ceiling initially because the glass from the lights overhead was falling onto the dancefloor.

One Twitter user tweeted to say he and three others were hiding in a dressing room before later confirming he was "finally out, safe".

PLESSE TELL THE COPS WERE WT PULSE ORLANDO HIDING IN THE DRESSING ROOM THERE WAS A SHOOTING
â€" E (@GoEmili0) 12 June 2016
FOUR OF US STILL HIDING. LIGHTS ARE OFF IN CLUB. COPS ARE HERE BUT HAVNT GOT US YET
â€" E (@GoEmili0) 12 June 2016
Finally out, safe. Thank you everyone for helping
â€" E (@GoEmili0) 12 June 2016
Amateur footage at the scene has recorded the sound of shots being fired outside the club.

Dozens of emergency vehicles are currently surrounding the club.

The motive for the attack is unknown.

A comment under the article: "extremist left culture will soon be the global norm" LOL

Suspect in mass shooting at Florida gay nightclub is dead, police say (http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/)

Florida is a nasty place ... the weather is too hot, along with tempers.  Last night a crazed fan shot and killed Ms Grimmie ... a recent contestant on The Voice ... while she was performing in Florida.  Fortunately the shooter turned his gun on himself, and suicided.  There are many things wrong with celebrity culture, Ms Grimmie was a personal favorite of mine, from her time on The Voice, and certainly John Lennon didn't deserve what he got either.

I've got a theory about what heat does to the human mind and why the most irrational and extremist actions committed by people come on mass based on living regions that get nothing but heat all the time.
Florida is one of the hottest regions in america, and the local plant life and swamp gasses I think adds to that frustration of people living their.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/08/can_a_heat_wave_make_you_insane.html


Rumors are now going that the shooter was islamic, but we're have to see. If so though, then the combination of extreme heat and that fucked up religious islamic belief would just add to it all.

Quote from: Munch on June 12, 2016, 07:57:31 AM
I've got a theory about what heat does to the human mind and why the most irrational and extremist actions committed by people come on mass based on living regions that get nothing but heat all the time.
Florida is one of the hottest regions in america, and the local plant life and swamp gasses I think adds to that frustration of people living their.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/08/can_a_heat_wave_make_you_insane.html

In the 60s, Black community riots never happened in Winter.

Quote from: Munch on June 12, 2016, 07:57:31 AM
I've got a theory about what heat does to the human mind and why the most irrational and extremist actions committed by people come on mass based on living regions that get nothing but heat all the time. 

That explains the Middle East. And S.E.A.

It says up to 20 Dead and 42 injured.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637414/Everyone-running-Gunman-bursts-gay-nightclub-Florida-shoots-20-people-taking-hostages.html#comments

Quote'We consider this an act of terrorism': Suspected Islamic extremist shoots dead at least 20 dead at Florida gay club after bursting in 'wearing a suicide vest' and taking hostages - injuring a further 42

-Heavily armed gunman opened fire inside Pulse gay club in Orlando
-Gunman shot more than 40 people in the attack - killing around 20
-He took people hostage before being shot dead by police officers
-FBI believe he may have leanings towards radical Islamic extremism
-Killings took place less than four miles from where The Voice singer Christina Grimmie, 22, was shot dead at The Plaza Live on Friday

A suspected Islamic extremist wielding an assault rifle and a handgun has killed about 20 people after taking party-goers hostage inside a gay nightclub in Orlando.
The gunman was carrying a suspicious device, possibly a suicide vest, when he opened fire inside Pulse in the early hours of this morning.
Orlando Police Chief John Mina said authorities have not determined the exact number of people killed, but that 'approximately 20' have died. Another 42 people were taken to hospital.
An FBI spokesman said the mass shooting is being investigated as an act of terrorism. He explained authorities are looking into whether this was an act of domestic or international terror, and if the shooter was a lone wolf.
Police said the gunman was believed to be in his 20s was not a local man, and the FBI believe he may have 'leanings to radical Islamic terrorism'.
The killings took place less than four miles from where The Voice singer and YouTube star Christina Grimmie, 22, was shot dead at The Plaza Live in Orlando on Friday.

Party-goers were urged to 'get out and keep running' as bullets started flying at around 2am local time.
Eyewitnesses described the gunman having a bomb strapped to himself when he started shooting today.
At around 6.00 local time (11am GMT) police said on Twitter: 'Pulse Shooting: The shooter inside the club is dead.' Officers described it as a 'mass shooting'. 
One man who said he was inside the club posted that the shooting broke out around 2 a.m. and that he heard about 40 shots being fired.
Police earlier carried out an controlled explosion at 5.15 local time (10.15am GMT today). but it is not yet clear whether that was linked with the gunman's death. 
It was thought that at least one hostage had been locked in a bathroom with gunshot wounds.
Around 100 officers were involved in the hostage situation before the gunman was killed.
During the gunfire, an officer was shot, but he was saved by his helmet.
Local TV reporter Stewart Moore said that more than 20 people had been shot with an assault rifle.
Jon Alamo said he was at the back of one of the club's rooms when a man holding a weapon came into the front of the room.


He continued to hear shooting even after he emerged, where police were telling people to back away from the club. He saw injured people being tended to across the street.
Mina Justice was outside the club trying to contact her 30-year-old son Eddie, who texted her when the shooting happened and asked her to call police.
He told her he ran into a bathroom with other club patrons to hide. He then texted her: 'He's coming.'
'The next text said: `He has us, and he's in here with us,'' she said. 'That was the last conversation.'
Ricardo Almodovar was in the nightclub. He said: 'Shooter opened fire at around 2.00am. People on the dance floor and bar got down on the floor and some of us who were near the bar and back exit managed to go out through the outdoor area and just ran.
'I am safely home and hoping everyone gets home safely as well.' Juan Rivera said on Twitter: 'Never seen so many dead bodies on the floor, God is good that my friends and I didn't get shot'.
Anthony Torres heard people screaming that others in the nightclub were dead.
Rosie Feba was in the club with her girlfriend and described the moment the shooting happened to the Orlando Sentinal.
She said: 'Everyone was getting on the floor.I told her [girlfriend] I didn't think it was real, I thought it was just part of the music, until I saw fire coming out of his gun.'
A police dispatcher described the incident as an 'active shooting'. Officers are advising locals to stay away from the area.
He said: 'There are injuries. I am not sure if there are any deceased at this time.'
'Officers are going in to search the building and to get people out,' the dispatcher said.

The police department posted on their official Twitter account: 'Multiple injuries. Stay away from the area.'
Pulse nightclub said on its Facebook account: 'Everyone get out of Pulse and keep running.'
Dozens of officers and medics are at the scene including Orlando Fire Department's bomb squad and hazardous material team.
Police have not given any further updates on the hostage situation or the gunman.
The shootings have taken place less than four miles away from where The Voice singer and YouTube star Christina Grimmie, 22, was shot dead by a gunman at The Plaza Live in Orlando on Friday 22.45 local time (02.45am GMT Saturday).
The man, identified as 27-year-old Kevin James Loibl, of St Petersburg, Florida was armed with two handguns, ammunition and a hunting knife.
He later killed himself and his motive was unknown.     


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637414/Everyone-running-Gunman-bursts-gay-nightclub-Florida-shoots-20-people-taking-hostages.html#ixzz4BMmUhJqG
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

NOW can we ban guns?

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 12, 2016, 08:11:15 AM
That explains the Middle East. And S.E.A.

And the S. E. C..

Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 08:43:52 AM
NOW can we ban guns?

(https://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/59449341.jpg)

Quote from: stromboli on June 12, 2016, 08:47:29 AM
(https://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/59449341.jpg)

That would be my preferred method of disarming my cousins.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 12, 2016, 08:55:21 AM
That would be my preferred method of disarming my cousins.

I was pretty sure this would evoke an emotional response from somebody, not wishful thinking. I have 2 elderly sisters I'm thinking of delivering several bottles of Nitrogen to, painted to look like Oxygen tanks. Better make sure there's no fingerprints.....

Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 08:43:52 AM
NOW can we ban guns?

Sure, but don't expect it to actually prevent stuff like this from happening.

By the way, any word on the shooter's motives? I know its a gay night club so the presumption is this is a hate crime against gay people but I like to get all the details.

Based on past examples, it is wide open as to who the perpetrator is. But if it comes back something weird like an outraged sjw who is incensed with the mass violation of conservative fashion, Don't get all up in my face about it.  :biggrin:

Respect my pronouns or I'll blow you away.

Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 08:43:52 AM
NOW can we ban guns?

But what about protecting myself from the big bad gubnit!?


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

It is the global warming. Makes people unhinged.

Quote from: pr126 on June 12, 2016, 11:08:08 AM
It is the global warming. Makes people unhinged.

Lol. Good to see you old man.

Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 08:43:52 AM
NOW can we ban guns?

That'd be the best way to provide even larger guaranteed populations of victims for mass shooters to do their thing (that's how they do it in most of Europe and why they don't have stuff like this over there).   Or, we could just make murder illegal?  That'd solve it for sure.   

 

Quote from: stromboli on June 12, 2016, 11:14:30 AM
Lol. Good to see you old man.

Yeah. No kidding. From the big man himself:

https://pjmedia.com/blog/obama-climate-change-causes-jihad/

Anybody think of the Pink Flamingo when they read the subject line.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 12, 2016, 12:13:28 PM
Anybody think of the Pink Flamingo when they read the subject line.

The Blue Oyster Club.  (police Academy)

Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 08:43:52 AM
NOW can we ban guns?

Now, now now!!!  Everybody knows the world was created 6,000 years ago and that guns do not kill people, people do.  Go stand in the corner for awhile!!!

How ironic is that most secular people screaming their heads off about how the consequences of climate change is fatal in many levels and has already been on, getting pissed off to any politician or Christian association acting like as if doesn't exist. BUT when it is said that it already fucked up the balance, everyone is ready to treat it like conspiracy theory. Hmmm. Why does this behaviour sounds familiar to me... :think:

Does anyone have  the slightest idea of the dimensions of the drought in ME, esp. Syria tied to climate change? And the civil wars and domestic violence it started years ago?

It must be very difficult for some people to imagine a huge land WITHOUT a drop of water and people starving to death. Millions of people moving here and there...Never been on the news?

But if it was a hollywood movie about mankind's struggle of water wars, some dysutopic future flick with half naked sexy chicks 'n boys holding guns, it would make sense, right. There would be comments like "I like this movie, it's realistic, it will be the the beginning of our end..."


But when it really happens...NOO Can't be. Refugees and terrorists are an army after collapsing our civilisation, they are so jelaous of us...oh NOOOO...cry"  :chatter:


Hey pr126, how is Europe? Did it collapse yet? Do you think I would hear the from here if it did?

Quote from: Mike Cl on June 12, 2016, 01:00:25 PM
Now, now now!!!  Everybody knows the world was created 6,000 years ago and that guns do not kill people, people do.  Go stand in the corner for awhile!!!

What about ton of atheists-secular morons who think more guns protect them and they are just necessary tools like cars? 

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 12, 2016, 01:16:27 PM
What about ton of atheists-secular morons who think more guns protect them and they are just necessary tools like cars?

Yeah, the illogical love of guns does seem to cut across all religious or political lines, doesn't it.  And in the post above I was using (or trying to) my great American sarcasm, Shoe.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 12, 2016, 10:29:08 AM
But what about protecting myself from the big bad gubnit!?


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Good point. When are people going to smarten up and start understanding that politicians have nothing but the people's best interests at heart? Donald Trump is winning in the polls, but there's nothing scary about that at all. No guns and a leader like the Donald? What could go wrong? It's not like we've had several posters on here comparing him to Hitler or anything... Oh wait. Surely he wouldn't take advantage of people not being able to defend themselves by stripping away their liberties,would he? Nope. Donald is a fine gentleman who cares about his fellow man. Nothing to worry about. Forget about the millions of soldiers who supposedly died for the cause of freedom, who are rolling over in their graves right now. Who cares about them and their silly little sacrifice?

Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 08:43:52 AM
NOW can we ban guns?

Sure, have at it.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 12, 2016, 01:30:02 PM
Good point. When are people going to smarten up and start understanding that politicians have nothing but the people's best interests at heart? Donald Trump is winning in the polls, but there's nothing scary about that at all. No guns and a leader like the Donald? What could go wrong? It's not like we've had several posters on here comparing him to Hitler or anything... Oh wait. Surely he wouldn't take advantage of people not being able to defend themselves by stripping away their liberties,would he? Nope. Donald is a fine gentleman who cares about his fellow man. Nothing to worry about. Forget about the millions of soldiers who supposedly died for the cause of freedom, who are rolling over in their graves right now. Who cares about them and their silly little sacrifice?

Riddle me this: what's your handgun going to do against a tank?


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 12, 2016, 01:30:02 PM
Good point. When are people going to smarten up and start understanding that politicians have nothing but the people's best interests at heart? Donald Trump is winning in the polls, but there's nothing scary about that at all. No guns and a leader like the Donald? What could go wrong? It's not like we've had several posters on here comparing him to Hitler or anything... Oh wait. Surely he wouldn't take advantage of people not being able to defend themselves by stripping away their liberties,would he? Nope. Donald is a fine gentleman who cares about his fellow man. Nothing to worry about. Forget about the millions of soldiers who supposedly died for the cause of freedom, who are rolling over in their graves right now. Who cares about them and their silly little sacrifice?

Rednecks with guns aren't going to do jack against an organized army. The fiasco in Oregon proved that yet again.

And before you wig out, I don't favor banning all guns, I own a few myself and I've been an owner and shooter since 1965. But handguns are for killing people. We are heavily over-capacity on that.

I went on a thinning-out recently, we shot a few hundred coyotes over a week's time. Saved a lot of small animals from over-predation, including cats and small dogs.

But a question for the "I eat what I kill!" folks... How come so many hunters shoot other hunters?

At the first huge social explosions or riots that has the potential of people shooting at each other and kill, Uncle Sam will shove those 'oh-my-so-beloved-contitutional-right!' toys so fast so deep to anyone's ass holding them, the collective memory will remain within the nostalgic memes made of American movie characters.

Oh don't worry, they won't ban guns. They won't need to. :lol:

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 12, 2016, 01:32:53 PM
Riddle me this: what's your handgun going to do against a tank?


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

What did the Taliban do against the US? It's about having a fighting chance.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 12, 2016, 01:51:59 PM
What is the Taliban going to do against tanks? Win.

Ah, yes, roadside bombs. Which store are you planning to buy some of those from?

Bud, you're an armchair rebel at best. The Taliban's fighters had training, and their leaders had entrenched supply lines thanks to various benefactors. You are not the Taliban.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Fighting chance? With hand guns against a drone for example?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 12, 2016, 01:59:50 PM
Fighting chance? With hand guns against a drone for example?

It's probably not a good idea to go into war with a handgun.

In a perfect world, I would be ok with banning handguns as long as people get to keep their assault rifles, but because of the potential slippery slope, I don't support the banning of any guns at all.

Florida should, statistically, have a gun for every one in four people... Where the fuck was the good guy with a gun to stop Grimmie from being killed? Were those killed in the club all "bad guys" and not "good guys"?

Fuck Florida, and anyone who is seriously going to continue defending this bullshit by saying guns aren't the issue... you are fucking mental.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 12, 2016, 02:17:09 PM
It's probably not a good idea to go into war with a handgun.

In a perfect world, I would be ok with banning handguns as long as people get to keep their assault rifles, but because of the potential slippery slope, I don't support the banning of any guns at all.

The fear of the slippery slop is killing kids. I guess it must be worth it?

There's a blood drive for the victims going on now. Ironically, I can't donate blood to the probably gay victims because I am gay.

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on June 12, 2016, 02:36:00 PM
There's a blood drive for the victims going on now. Ironically, I can't donate blood to the probably gay victims because I am gay.

I am incredulous that this is still happening in our country, a large number of good and healthy donors are automatically disqualified like that. It's so stupid.

Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 08:43:52 AM
NOW can we ban guns?

Only if the police and military give up theirs ... first ;-)   We need to ban crazy people and criminals too ... that will work out swell.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 12, 2016, 02:34:06 PM
The fear of the slippery slop is killing kids. I guess it must be worth it?

Well, it's not just a fear in this case. It is reality. Hillary says gun owners don't have the right to terrorize anti-gun people. She's made up her mind. Gun owners are terrorists and she doesn't think they should have the right to own a gun. She praised mandatory buy backs and says she would like to see that happen in the US if possible. Obama, in his insanity, tried to make it so people on the terrorist watch list could not buy guns. That is completely insane. Anyone can be thrown on that dumb ass terrorist watch list.

Yes, I think it's worth keeping guns, even with the dead kids. Freedom can't exist without some blood. Are you ok with throwing away the sacrifice that millions of soldiers have made? Did they die just to make the rich richer, or did they die for something more than that? You give up the guns, there's a good chance the rest of your liberties are going out the window with the guns, eventually. So what if people wouldn't stand a chance going against the US army in a fight? That's not the point. Guns in the peoples hands serve as an incentive for the government to not just take away all of people's liberties. When bringing up a potential civil war, you have to remember that the US doesn't want to see this happen. Neither the people or the government want a civil war. I think they are determined to take the guns at any cost though, and they will be successful.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 12, 2016, 08:55:21 AM
That would be my preferred method of disarming my cousins.

Do you keep their arms as souveniers?

Quote from: Mike Cl on June 12, 2016, 01:28:16 PM
Yeah, the illogical love of guns does seem to cut across all religious or political lines, doesn't it.  And in the post above I was using (or trying to) my great American sarcasm, Shoe.

There are real gun crazies.  Usually they aren't the ones shooting up gay clubs.  All three guns nuts I know, are former cops or military.  Perhaps the reason why that kid who shot up the Black church meeting ... didn't have 100 guns on him, is because it takes a lot of effort to conceal carry that many.  Besides, he only needed one or two.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 12, 2016, 09:10:18 AM
By the way, any word on the shooter's motives? I know its a gay night club so the presumption is this is a hate crime against gay people but I like to get all the details.

The shooter is conveniently dead.  And if he was alive, would you trust the self examination of a Manson character?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 12, 2016, 01:16:27 PM
What about ton of atheists-secular morons who think more guns protect them and they are just necessary tools like cars?

In America, after each group exterminates its opposition, there won't be anyone left alive.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 12, 2016, 01:59:37 PM
Ah, yes, roadside bombs. Which store are you planning to buy some of those from?

Bud, you're an armchair rebel at best. The Taliban's fighters had training, and their leaders had entrenched supply lines thanks to various benefactors. You are not the Taliban.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

If he were a killer he wouldn't be posting here.  Besides all the anti-government stuff is both conspiracy theory and controlled opposition ... nothing to see here.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 12, 2016, 01:30:02 PM
Good point. When are people going to smarten up and start understanding that politicians have nothing but the people's best interests at heart? Donald Trump is winning in the polls, but there's nothing scary about that at all. No guns and a leader like the Donald? What could go wrong? It's not like we've had several posters on here comparing him to Hitler or anything... Oh wait. Surely he wouldn't take advantage of people not being able to defend themselves by stripping away their liberties,would he? Nope. Donald is a fine gentleman who cares about his fellow man. Nothing to worry about. Forget about the millions of soldiers who supposedly died for the cause of freedom, who are rolling over in their graves right now. Who cares about them and their silly little sacrifice?

We are all (or at least some of our European cousins) good little pacifist socialists now.  Can't wait for the Germans to protect Europe from the refugees (as they are obligated to if you disarm your citizens) ... crickets.  Oh, they are just arguing about how much blackmail the Germans will pay Turkey.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 12, 2016, 01:32:53 PM
Riddle me this: what's your handgun going to do against a tank?


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Mine is only for domestic intruders.  I work for the government, so I will be driving the tank ;-)

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 12, 2016, 01:51:59 PM
What did the Taliban do against the US? It's about having a fighting chance.

The Taliban all work for the US.  Either combatants directly working for us, or controlled opposition raising hell (like ISIS).  The Russians know what is going on since 1980s ... they need to nuke the US if they had any unfrozen balls.

Well the informations out now, the shooter was from an islamic background, and despite his father claiming it wasn't religiously motivated, the reports go that the shooter reacted like a psycho seeing two gay men kissing some months before, and now he's killed upward of 50 people in floridas gay community.

I've really got nothing to put to this, its cut and dry, a psycho lead on by religious beliefs killed dozens of people.

All I hope is this pushed for something to change now, as its being marked as one of the worst tragedies in the gay community in america for a long time.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 02:32:48 PM
Florida should, statistically, have a gun for every one in four people... Where the fuck was the good guy with a gun to stop Grimmie from being killed? Were those killed in the club all "bad guys" and not "good guys"?

Fuck Florida, and anyone who is seriously going to continue defending this bullshit by saying guns aren't the issue... you are fucking mental.

Don't lump people with the nut case John Wayne types who think they are going to do a gunfight in a saloon.  I have no intention of playing Gunsmoke.  And I am sufficiently misanthropic ... that I am not sure a whole lot of people need to die.  Who gets to choose?  I don't fear a man's gun ... I don't fear him either.  But I don't pick fights ... and I am not going to let my temporary ennui get the best of me either.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 12, 2016, 02:34:06 PM
The fear of the slippery slop is killing kids. I guess it must be worth it?

The kids need to die ... of old age.  Old age is a lot worse than dying young.

Quote from: Mermaid on June 12, 2016, 02:53:18 PM
I am incredulous that this is still happening in our country, a large number of good and healthy donors are automatically disqualified like that. It's so stupid.

Our local blood drive dropped the ban on gays.

several gay news sites reporting of it has had commenters saying certain christian sites are already preaching about 'gods work is done' at this mass shooting.

Quote from: Munch on June 12, 2016, 03:23:25 PM
Well the informations out now, the shooter was from an islamic background, and despite his father claiming it wasn't religiously motivated, the reports go that the shooter reacted like a psycho seeing two gay men kissing some months before, and now he's killed upward of 50 people in floridas gay community.

I've really got nothing to put to this, its cut and dry, a psycho lead on by religious beliefs killed dozens of people.

All I hope is this pushed for something to change now, as its being marked as one of the worst tragedies in the gay community in america for a long time.

This is typical when you put feral humans with domesticated humans.  Fur will fly, and the domestic short hair usually is lunch.

Quote from: Munch on June 12, 2016, 03:32:17 PM
several gay news sites reporting of it has had commenters saying certain christian sites are already preaching about 'gods work is done' at this mass shooting.

There was a rash of church burnings a few years back ... hate to see that happen again.

Quote from: Baruch on June 12, 2016, 03:33:39 PM
There was a rash of church burnings a few years back ... hate to see that happen again.

fact is this, its already out in the news that the shooter was following Isis.

"Omar Mateen called 911 just before club shooting, swore allegiance to Islamic State, multiple law enforcement officials say - NBC News "
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/terror-hate-what-motivated-orlando-nightclub-shooter-n590496

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/terror-hate-what-motivated-orlando-nightclub-shooter-n590496

Orlando Nightclub Shooter Called 911 to Pledge Allegiance to ISIS

Which means that this was a false flag event planned by the CIA, and managed by the FBI.

More ... he was born here but his parents originated in Afghanistan, he had been interviewed by the FBI three times, and worked for the world's largest security company.  Not exactly milquetoast ... other than he was also a Democrat.

I've really got to get this off my chest, but fact of the matter is, in america, it doesn't matter what you believe or your political stance is, islamic, christian, liberal, conservative, atheist, agnostic, it really doesn't matter when its so easy to buy something that can kill so many people in a few seconds, and nothing is done to stop it.

The Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in 2012 didn't highlight anything of the killers beliefs, just that he planned it all out. I honestly would never come to america, due to just how easy guns are sold to psychopaths living in it. And while yes in europe theirs been bombings, bombs are things people construct themselves as weapons for mass killing, its not sold in shops down the street.

Usually AK47s aren't sold in shops down my street.  You have to go to gun shows for that.  Only adults should have access to alcohol or guns.

Britain had an opportunity in 1812-15 to exterminate the former colonials ... and y'all failed.  Our psychopathic violence came in handy in WW I and WW II.

A certain pacifist in India also whipped you.  Maybe Britain needs to man up.  You have a chance in your vote this month!

In a free country, adults have access to cars and guns ... and are held responsible for their use.  I am free to use my car or my gun irresponsibly, though that doesn't make it right.  But trying to enslave me just makes me want to kill the slaver ... it doesn't reduce my violence, it maximizes it.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 02:32:48 PM
Fuck Florida, and anyone who is seriously going to continue defending this bullshit by saying guns aren't the issue... you are fucking mental.

So fix it or STFU.

If this guy is ISIS, he probably didn't do this just because of the gay thing. It was probably a combination of him wanting to show his support for ISIS and to fulfill his obligation to Allah, and he didn't like gay people so he chose them as the target. I blame this on George Bush, Cheney, Obama, and Hillary. They are to blame for things like this. Shame on them. They are also to blame for every suicide committed by an American soldier. Guns don't suicide people. Bush and Obama suicide people by fucking up their minds with these wars.

Quote from: Johan on June 12, 2016, 04:04:06 PM
So fix it or STFU.

Maybe FEMA camps are the issue.  Maybe Satanic forces in corporations and government are the issue.  But my plastic spork isn't the issue.

Shiranu ... you know that guns are banned in Australia.  Have you considered you might be happier there?  I agree that Americans are disgusting creatures.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 12, 2016, 04:09:14 PM
If this guy is ISIS, he probably didn't do this just because of the gay thing. It was probably a combination of him wanting to show his support for ISIS and to fulfill his obligation to Allah, and he didn't like gay people so he chose them as the target. I blame this on George Bush, Cheney, Obama, and Hillary. They are to blame for things like this. Shame on them. They are also to blame for every suicide committed by an American soldier. Guns don't suicide people. Bush and Obama suicide people by fucking up their minds with these wars.

Deep state.  ISIS has a kill list of 8000 Americans, including 600 in Florida.  What if ISIS works for the MIC, and the rather conservative MIC has decided to end Liberalism the hard way?  Can't do it directly, so just hire ISIS.  Same as Blackwater, only with decapitations.

You make a lot of money thru warfare.  So lets have war all the time.  This is why the US was in Vietnam, not because of anti-communism.

FaithIsFilth,

You have this gun culture and these gun issues, as a result of policies that has been profitable and beneficial to your society in many aspects. But this is running its course. In the first opportunity, with any excuse they can smack down hard and manipulate the gun issue all they want. Nobody can do anything about it.

Federal government of the USA does not need to and will not negotiate with its citizens when things reach a certain point and the order is threatened -and by that I am not even talking about something extraordinary- and do its job. Which is not as far away as people think. This as simple as that. All that inflated fantastical understanding of freedom, those 'rights', politics and discussions about them DO NOT MEAN anything at all. No, they do not need to force a ban either.

People are allowed to play now, because order is not under threat, almost nobody cares about shootings; the culture has already produced its conviction and defense mechanisms and the gun culture is profitable, also beneficial for a group in a certain aspect of the culture, a means of propaganda...etc. That's all. So who is supporting gun ban for what reasons and who doesn't...only talk. And counts as much as chatting in this forum.

This belief, this delusion of people thinking that this cannot change, because it's a 'constitutional right' or as they believe that there is a rational explanation behind it or 'This is America' or because something blah blah is just comical.

I'm not saying these to be obnoxious or offensive. When the time comes and this ceased to be what it is now or has been, it will be smacked down. And people can't do or say anything about it. It's not up to them. You are living in a delusion which perfectly fits the issue tself. :sad2: 

Quote from: Johan on June 12, 2016, 04:04:06 PM
So fix it or STFU.

So you want me to fix a problem without criticizing it, a problem with other people's mindset. A problem that takes a society admitting it even exists, you want me to not talk about it unless me, personally, can fix it.

I just want to be clear... you are promising to never criticize someone with a different opinion, since it achieves nothing, from now on, right?

Make me be silent or STFU and grow the fuck up Johan.

Chingate y comer una verga, pendejo.

But if he was ISIL, I am thinking he would blow himself up, not shooting around and taking hostages. ALso ISIL wuold move with 2-3 people not 1.

Choosing a bar makes sense, it doesn't have to be the gay thing. Confined public places of the sort are suitable to achieve panic and also better to control compared to many other places? But yeah it could pretty much be that it is a bar and a gay one.

May be an independent supporter of ISIL? I have no idea.

Quote from: Baruch on June 12, 2016, 04:12:46 PM
ISIS has a kill list of 8000 Americans, including 600 in Florida.  What if ISIS works for the MIC, and the rather conservative MIC has decided to end Liberalism the hard way?  Can't do it directly, so just hire ISIS.  Same as Blackwater, only with decapitations.

You make a lot of money thru warfare.  So lets have war all the time.  This is why the US was in Vietnam, not because of anti-communism.

Agreed about how profitable war industry is...etc. But ISIL wants to kill just 8000 Americans? Is that all? :lol: Why just 8000? Or you are just rambling for fun?

Quote from: Munch on June 12, 2016, 03:42:03 PM
I've really got to get this off my chest, but fact of the matter is, in america, it doesn't matter what you believe or your political stance is, islamic, christian, liberal, conservative, atheist, agnostic, it really doesn't matter when its so easy to buy something that can kill so many people in a few seconds, and nothing is done to stop it.

The Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in 2012 didn't highlight anything of the killers beliefs, just that he planned it all out. I honestly would never come to america, due to just how easy guns are sold to psychopaths living in it. And while yes in europe theirs been bombings, bombs are things people construct themselves as weapons for mass killing, its not sold in shops down the street.

As soon as we make guns illegal, they will all disappear!! :D

Acquiring a gun through illegal means is impossible and not at all easier than buying a piece of pie at the diner. Nope...

Further, once guns are made illegal all violence will instantly end since, as everyone knows, the only way for one person to do harm to another is through the use of a gun!

Bombs don't exist. Setting fire to a building and watching everyone inside it burn to death can't happen. A determined person who wants to kill a bunch of people will have absolutely no way to do so once we make guns illegal!!!

ITS GOING TO BE A BRAVE NEW WORLD ONCE WE FINALLY GET RID OF THE GUNS. NOW EXCUSE ME WHILE I CHUG ANOTHER GALLON OF THIS DELICIOUS KOOL AID.

People were super great at killing other people before guns even existed. Even if you could get every gun off the street, which by the way you cant ever do. EVER. You would just have a species of very creative and inventive murderers using some other way to commit their murders. Some of those ways might even be MORE lethal than if they had had access to a gun.

What needs to be fixed is not our access to guns but our motivations for murder. As long as theres someone who feels abandoned by society and becomes vulnerable, the possibility of mass murder will always be with us. There is no easy fix, and banning guns stinks of people trying to do an easy fix.

Not to mention that banning popular things really doesn't turn our very well. Gun smuggling would get 10x more profitable over night and if the cartels have proven anything its that theyre good at getting things past our border patrols.

In Taiwan, Japan and Australia, guns are illegal and shootings are extremely rare. Outlawing guns does indeed minimize shootings.

I'm sick of all the excuses. It's the guns. No guns, no gun deaths.

Why does anyone think that X will end, or by banning Y, something productive is accomplished?

Example: the Lydians didn't like the competition from the Ionians and other Greeks on their W coast.  So they built up the Lydian kingdom and used that to conquer the Greek cities on the mainland (by 560 BCE).  Then thinking they were too big for their britches, they decided to attack the new Persian empire, and became a failed state ... thus putting their Greek subjects under Persian mastery.  From that point it was game on, until the Greek-Turkish war of 1919-1922, when the Greeks were almost entirely driven out or killed after having already lived there for 3000 years, by the eventual successor of the Persian empire.  That is a long time to resolve a political issue.  America will be in the dustbin of history before our internal and external conflicts abate.  Banning economic exploitation is a trick, to ban some exploitation that the status quo doesn't like, not to ban their own economic exploitation.  Nobody asks the government for anything, unless it will hurt their opponents and help their allies.  Common good has nothing to do with it.

Holy mother of non sequiturs, red herrings, strawmen, reflections and ad hocs, Batman!

Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 04:32:46 PM
In Taiwan, Japan and Australia, guns are illegal and shootings are extremely rare. Outlawing guns does indeed minimize shootings.

I'm sick of all the excuses. It's the guns. No guns, no gun deaths.

The US isn't Taiwan, Japan or Australia.  All fine countries.  But magic thinking doesn't do any good.  If Americans don't have guns, I have knives and a baseball bat.  And I know how to use them.  The problem is Americans, destroy America, and you have solved the American problem.  Kind of like solving the Muslim problem by killing all the Muslims though.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 12, 2016, 04:26:56 PM
As soon as we make guns illegal, they will all disappear!! :D

Acquiring a gun through illegal means is impossible and not at all easier than buying a piece of pie at the diner. Nope...

Further, once guns are made illegal all violence will instantly end since, as everyone knows, the only way for one person to do harm to another is through the use of a gun!

Bombs don't exist. Setting fire to a building and watching everyone inside it burn to death can't happen. A determined person who wants to kill a bunch of people will have absolutely no way to do so once we make guns illegal!!!

ITS GOING TO BE A BRAVE NEW WORLD ONCE WE FINALLY GET RID OF THE GUNS. NOW EXCUSE ME WHILE I CHUG ANOTHER GALLON OF THIS DELICIOUS KOOL AID.

People were super great at killing other people before guns even existed. Even if you could get every gun off the street, which by the way you cant ever do. EVER. You would just have a species of very creative and inventive murderers using some other way to commit their murders. Some of those ways might even be MORE lethal than if they had had access to a gun.

What needs to be fixed is not our access to guns but our motivations for murder. As long as theres someone who feels abandoned by society and becomes vulnerable, the possibility of mass murder will always be with us. There is no easy fix, and banning guns stinks of people trying to do an easy fix.

Not to mention that banning popular things really doesn't turn our very well. Gun smuggling would get 10x more profitable over night and if the cartels have proven anything its that theyre good at getting things past our border patrols.

He is not saying anything of the sort at all. He is talking about the issue of ridiculously easy access. And his example is accurate.

There is a very big difference between difficult/limited access and being able to buy an assualt rifle from a mall like grocery.

Not to mention pretty pink, little real rifles on sale for little girls in the US.

Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 04:32:46 PM
In Taiwan, Japan and Australia, guns are illegal and shootings are extremely rare. Outlawing guns does indeed minimize shootings.

I'm sick of all the excuses. It's the guns. No guns, no gun deaths.

Their cultures are extremely different from ours, as are their demographics. Of course there is less violence among a group of people who all share the same values and ethnicity and who are relatively affluent compared to much of the rest of the world.

Meanwhile in the US we have some amount of every ethnicity on the planet all crammed into the same country with rival values and an insane wealth disparity coupled with a deep and abiding mistrust of any authority and plagued by a bevy of religiously and economically incited social issues that have remained unsolved for decades. Putting the guns away doesn't make any of that disappear.

QuoteIf Americans don't have guns, I have knives and a baseball bat.

If you kill 50 people in a club... 27 in a school... however many in a theatre... with a baseball bat and a knife... I will personally come and give you the best head of your life because you are a god.

Never gets old. Deserves a repeat every time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 12, 2016, 04:36:26 PM
He is not saying anything of the sort at all. He is talking about the issue of ridiculously easy access. And his example is accurate.

There is a very big difference between difficult/limited access and being able to buy an assualt rifle from a mall like grocery.

Not to mention pretty pink, little real rifles on sale for little girls in the US.

If you make guns illegal, but the guy who wants to shoot up a night club can still get them illegally, what has banning them accomplished? If its harder to get guns, but still possible, how does that really help?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 12, 2016, 04:25:48 PM
Agreed about how profitable war industry is...etc. But ISIL wants to kill just 8000 Americans? Is that all? :lol: Why just 8000? Or you are just rambling for fun?

Ask the CIA or the FBI.  The claimed number needs to be large, to be scary (end all rights in the US citizen!) but not too big to be implausible.  The half of America wants to kill the other half ... as some 19th century plutocrat aptly observed.  Failed state.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 12, 2016, 04:38:50 PM
If you make guns illegal, but the guy who wants to shoot up a night club can still get them illegally, what has banning them accomplished? If its harder to get guns, but still possible, how does that really help?

Well... when the price of the gun skyrockets because you have to buy it off the black market plus the fact that you cant just "walk up to the black market and say, "Hi I'm John Omar Hussein Thompson and I would like to buy a gun so I can shoot up a school or gay bar!"... statistically, as evident by every country that has actually tried it, the number of people who will put in the effort and have the money to buy a gun will drop. When less people have guns, less people get shot. Does it completely stop mass shootings or shootings at all? No... and no one has even remotely fucking said it would. But it does cut down a shitload of the violence.

Sorry that the civilized world values human lives over your right to stroke your dick with your Magnum... it's just shameful that the States has yet to join the civilized world.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 12, 2016, 04:36:26 PM
He is not saying anything of the sort at all. He is talking about the issue of ridiculously easy access. And his example is accurate.

There is a very big difference between difficult/limited access and being able to buy an assualt rifle from a mall like grocery.

Not to mention pretty pink, little real rifles on sale for little girls in the US.

You are not accurate, nor is he.  The shooter had a license.  He was legit.  But I agree about assault rifles ... that is crazy ownership.  Notice we already had one poster that preferred them to handguns however.  Handguns bad!  This is back to the Saturday Night special myth promoted in 1968, to keep handguns out of the hands of really poor people.  But that just motivated them to steal them!

So we would go European ... you can't have a gun, unless you buy it from a police store, and get all registered and crime background checked etc ... and this guy would have passed.  Basically unless you are a deputized lay policeman like Zimmerman.  Unless you want to kill all the first generation Americans, or all the Muslim Americans.  But I am not European, I kill Europeans often for the last 200 years.  We don't like you, that is why we left you.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 04:43:07 PM
Well... when the price of the gun skyrockets because you have to buy it off the black market plus the fact that you cant just "walk up to the black market and say, "Hi I'm John Omar Hussein Thompson and I would like to buy a gun so I can shoot up a school or gay bar!"... statistically, as evident by every country that has actually tried it, the number of people who will put in the effort and have the money to buy a gun will drop. When less people have guns, less people get shot. Does it completely stop mass shootings or shootings at all? No... and no one has even remotely fucking said it would. But it does cut down a shitload of the violence.

Sorry that the civilized world values human lives over your right to stroke your dick with your Magnum... it's just shameful that the States has yet to join the civilized world.

Human rights are imaginary, just like G-d.  Try and enforce your human rights when someone has a gun in your face (might be a policeman too).  Yes, you can be safe, in a police state.  Welcome to 1984.  Choose that and you are my enemy.  Cut down on violence?  Make mental health care and meds free.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 12, 2016, 04:36:59 PM
Their cultures are extremely different from ours, as are their demographics. Of course there is less violence among a group of people who all share the same values and ethnicity and who are relatively affluent compared to much of the rest of the world.

Meanwhile in the US we have some amount of every ethnicity on the planet all crammed into the same country with rival values and an insane wealth disparity coupled with a deep and abiding mistrust of any authority and plagued by a bevy of religiously and economically incited social issues that have remained unsolved for decades. Putting the guns away doesn't make any of that disappear.

We can always pretend, by dealing with the symptom, not the cause.

Quote from: Baruch on June 12, 2016, 04:47:33 PM
Human rights are imaginary, just like G-d.  Try and enforce your human rights when someone has a gun in your face (might be a policeman too).  Yes, you an be safe, in a police state.  Welcome to 1984.  Cut down on violence?  Make mental health care and meds free.

No one said a thing about human rights... rather human lives. Those, contrary to some beliefs, are real and have value.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 04:43:07 PM
Well... when the price of the gun skyrockets because you have to buy it off the black market plus the fact that you cant just "walk up to the black market and say, "Hi I'm John Omar Hussein Thompson and I would like to buy a gun so I can shoot up a school or gay bar!"... statistically, as evident by every country that has actually tried it, the number of people who will put in the effort and have the money to buy a gun will drop. When less people have guns, less people get shot. Does it completely stop mass shootings or shootings at all? No... and no one has even remotely fucking said it would. But it does cut down a shitload of the violence.

Sorry that the civilized world values human lives over your right to stroke your dick with your Magnum... it's just shameful that the States has yet to join the civilized world.

Oh fucking please. Drugs are illegal and yet somehow nearly everyone can both find and afford them. Theres a bunch of people salivating at the idea of the US banning guns because they are ready and willing to build their fortunes on making sure people in the US can still get easy and affordable weapons. Im also pretty tired of hearing about statistics of countries that are really nothing like the United States. Its already been proven over and over that when the US government makes something popular illegal, a market is created and the people running it are absolutely EXCELLENT at evading law enforcement and still delivering the goods to virtually anyone at a very affordable price.

If you really think that banning guns is actually going to make them disappear then I honestly don't know what more there is to say to you.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 12, 2016, 04:38:50 PM
If you make guns illegal, but the guy who wants to shoot up a night club can still get them illegally, what has banning them accomplished? If its harder to get guns, but still possible, how does that really help?

Nobody is talking about making guns illegal. We are talking about restricted access right now.

If you read about how the most perpetrators in mass shootings in the US get their hand son those weapons, you'd get what is meant. It's a fucking joke. And just trying to provide something illegal to commit a crime IS A DETERRENT itself at most times. ESP. as opposed to going into mall and pick an assault rifle. First of all, the products get to be more expensive and getting them gets more dangerous with short cuts when they are NOT easily obtained. We can start from there.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 04:37:04 PM
If you kill 50 people in a club... 27 in a school... however many in a theatre... with a baseball bat and a knife... I will personally come and give you the best head of your life because you are a god.

The US Army can kill more than that, but they are special.  Tell that to the millions the US has killed since 1945 ... that we meant well.  If the US government can do that, you ask me to trust them?  I don't trust my next door neighbor ... but I don't live in fear either.  I will give up my opposition to evil, when evil stands down.  Perp with or without a uniform, no difference to me.  Yes, we must reduce all adults to infancy, and let their mommy spoon feed them, like Europeans?

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 12, 2016, 04:38:50 PM
If you make guns illegal, but the guy who wants to shoot up a night club can still get them illegally, what has banning them accomplished? If its harder to get guns, but still possible, how does that really help?

Panicked individuals like to claim they did something, not that they solved something.  If you don't want criminals, kill all the humans.  Then you don't have to bother with a trial, just like Obama.

Drugs and guns...Yeah... No. Anyway, I am off to watch some movie. Have fun.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 04:51:12 PM
No one said a thing about human rights... rather human lives. Those, contrary to some beliefs, are real and have value.

Parliamentary rule of order ... propose the opposite, and defend ;-)  Human life has much less value than you think.  Humans prove this every day.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 12, 2016, 04:52:09 PM
Nobody is talking about making guns illegal. We are talking about restricted access right now.

If you read about how the most perpetrators in mass shootings in the US get their hand son those weapons, you'd get what is meant. It's a fucking joke. And just trying to provide something illegal to commit a crime IS A DETERRENT itself at most times. ESP. as opposed to going into mall and pick an assault rifle. First of all, the products get to be more expensive and getting them gets more dangerous with short cuts when they are NOT easily obtained. We can start from there.

?

Im pretty sure there are actually some people talking about making guns illegal in this thread.

QuoteOh fucking please. Drugs are illegal and yet somehow nearly everyone can both find and afford them.

Drugs are also addictive, mind-altering, pain relieving substances that have an astronomically huge demand rate when compared to guns. This comparison seriously borderlined on giving me AIDS.

QuoteIm also pretty tired of hearing about statistics of countries that are really nothing like the United States.

Well too fucking bad sweetheart, because we are pretty fucking tired of hearing about statistics of thousands of innocent people being killed each year so you can keep jacking off into you AR-15. Americans aren't some fucking special breed of human who spent hundreds of thousands of years evolving from a different lineage than the rest of the world. We aren't genetically predispositioned to shove our head 10 inches up our collective asses and pretend there isn't a problem. The pendulum is shifting away from your side as more and more Americans are favouring stricter regulations of firearms. You are on the losing side of progress and rationality... I guess maybe you will be more equipped to sympathise with theists, at least so... you have that going for you, which is nice.

QuoteIts already been proven over and over that when the US government makes something popular illegal, a market is created and the people running it are absolutely EXCELLENT at evading law enforcement and still delivering the goods to virtually anyone at a very affordable price.

Again... guns are not even remotely as popular as drugs so this example is pure horse shit.

QuoteIf you really think that banning guns is actually going to make them disappear then I honestly don't know what more there is to say to you.

Let me put this in bold and big letters so it might get through to you...



NO ONE IS FUCKING SAYING THIS.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 04:17:10 PM
So you want me to fix a problem without criticizing it, a problem with other people's mindset. A problem that takes a society admitting it even exists, you want me to not talk about it unless me, personally, can fix it.

No, I don't want to you fix a problem without criticizing it. Criticizing is perfectly acceptable as a start. But only as a start. After that, its time to actually do something or STFU about it.

Do you think there is a single man woman or child that has so much glanced at a gun thread on this forum in the last several years that isn't keenly aware of exactly what your position on the subject is? You're obviously passionate about this topic. Don't you think its time to lend something other than your deft criticism skills to the cause?

And before this goes further, let me apologize for something. I'm singling you out here and that isn't fair. My problem is not with you specifically. My problem is that all of us collectively have become part of a cycle that never seems to end. Some whacko take a gun and does something horrible. People go to the forum of their choice and write the same posts saying the exact same things they wrote the last time some whacko did the same thing and somehow, it makes them feel better. It makes them feel like they're doing something positive about the problem. I believe we are all guilty of this myself included.

There's a shooting and then here come the threads with the same people making the same points and throwing the same insults lather rinse repeat. Over and over and over.

I guess I'm just to the point where I'm just as sick of everyone bitching but otherwise doing nothing to try to impact the problem (myself included) as I'm sick of the problem itself.

I'm all for making guns harder to get. However I don't believe that solves or even changes the problem all that much. You disagree and that's fine. But if you disagree and think making them harder to get is the answer or even the beginning of the answer, fucking do something about it then. Write a god damn letter to your senator. Call your rep. Sign a petition. Do something besides posting the same shit you've posted a million times. And again I'm writing this in a way that singles you out but my comments are actually directed at everyone. Criticism is great as a start. But it gets old quick. Shouldn't there come a time when we get to say enough already, lift a fucking finger and do something about it or STFU?

Considering I have petitioned and voted here in Texas to keep guns off of campuses and other places... don't worry I don't just post about it here.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 05:04:55 PM
Considering I have petitioned and voted here in Texas to keep guns off of campuses and other places... don't worry I don't just post about it here.

Open carry and even concealed carry, in Texas, is over the top.  I commend you ;-)  At least here, they don't allow guns in banks ... hard to tell the bank robbers from the customers that way.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 05:01:55 PM
Drugs are also addictive, mind-altering, pain relieving substances that have an astronomically huge demand rate when compared to guns. This comparison seriously borderlined on giving me AIDS.

Well too fucking bad sweetheart, because we are pretty fucking tired of hearing about statistics of thousands of innocent people being killed each year so you can keep jacking off into you AR-15. Americans aren't some fucking special breed of human who spent hundreds of thousands of years evolving from a different lineage than the rest of the world. We aren't genetically predispositioned to shove our head 10 inches up our collective asses and pretend there isn't a problem. The pendulum is shifting away from your side as more and more Americans are favouring stricter regulations of firearms. You are on the losing side of progress and rationality... I guess maybe you will be more equipped to sympathise with theists, at least so... you have that going for you, which is nice.

Again... guns are not even remotely as popular as drugs so this example is pure horse shit.

Let me put this in bold and big letters so it might get through to you...



NO ONE IS FUCKING SAYING THIS.

Says fucking YOU. Another clear example about how absolutely fucking clueless you are about american gun culture. In your tiny mind only evil or ignorant people want guns and I fucking bet in your mind they're a small group. In reality countless millions of americans own guns and consider them a necessity for defending themselves. I can already feel your arrogant sneer but what you think doesn't fucking matter. Its how they see it. So clueless are you about this cultural phenomenon that you actually believe that I am what you would probably call a gun nut, when in reality I have never owned a single gun and never will. Ive fired more arrows from a bow and arrow than I have fired shots from a gun and I haven't done any archery in 20 years.

I know it just fucking tears you up inside to realize it but not everyone who disagrees with your absurd fantasy is automatically a gun nut.

So why am I arguing on this topic? Because you solution is shit. It restricts the rights of Americans while solving nothing. You're attempting to mask the symptoms of the human condition by passing a fucking LAW.

There are actually people who want a Right or Left wing tyranny.  They need to be stopped.  There are other people outside my country who want to conquer my country.  They need to be stopped.  No conversation or polite petition will stop these assholes.  Their lives are worth nothing to me, no matter how much their Mom loved them.  Fortunately these people have been deterred or stopped in the past.  But vigilance must never stop, this goes back to Minutemen on the green at Lexington.  Of course our European posters can't understand that ... the English king wasn't even being particularly mean, just annoying.  They chose to stay in Europe and put up with all the shit they have to put up with from their rulers.  Americans (if really American) are leaders, not rulers.  We oppose rulers, including American dynasts.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 12, 2016, 05:11:54 PM
Says fucking YOU. Another clear example about how absolutely fucking clueless you are about american gun culture. In your tiny mind only evil or ignorant people want guns and I fucking bet in your mind they're a small group. In reality countless millions of americans own guns and consider them a necessity for defending themselves. I can already feel your arrogant sneer but what you think doesn't fucking matter. Its how they see it. So clueless are you about this cultural phenomenon that you actually believe that I am what you would probably call a gun nut, when in reality I have never owned a single gun and never will. Ive fired more arrows from a bow and arrow than I have fired shots from a gun and I haven't done any archery in 20 years.

I know it just fucking tears you up inside to realize it but not everyone who disagrees with your absurd fantasy is automatically a gun nut.

So why am I arguing on this topic? Because you solution is shit. It restricts the rights of Americans while solving nothing. You're attempting to mask the symptoms of the human condition by passing a fucking LAW.

Simply because something is 'a part of a society or culture' doesn't excuse it being brought into question, saying its the norm doesn't mean its something that shouldn't be looked at. Lets not forget, just a few hundred years ago, the common norm of american culture was to own slaves, it was just an accepted part of the culture and nobody back then would ever look at someone of color as anything other then property to someone with the money to own them.

I've never once seen a compelling argument about why a whole society having easy access to firearms is a good thing, saying its for defense doesn't outweigh the many deaths of shootings not in defense that occurs each year. People die by accident to guns both self inflicted or to lovered ones all the time in the US

QuoteIn your tiny mind only evil or ignorant people want guns and I fucking bet in your mind they're a small group.

I own 10 guns and have several on list that I want... but yes... only evil and ignorant people want guns.

Here is what you seem incapable of grasping; "want" is not a good enough reason to justify innocent people dying. What I "want" is irrelevant compared to the "want" of a grieving mother, father who just lost a daughter to some nutjob stalker... a brother who watched his sister get shot three times in the face. What I "want" does not outweigh the lives lost because someone rational, normal, non-criminal guy lost his cool and shot his wife in anger. What I "want" is not more important than 32 dead students, 20 six and seven year olds, 23 bystandards eating lunch, 14 mailmen and the countless victims of just short "crimes of passion" that healthy members of society commit because human's ocassionally break down.

So don't fucking come in here acting like you know shit about me, or telling me that people "want" guns means jack-shit. I am a "responsible gun owner", and I would get rid of eveyone of my guns in a heartbeat if it meant others would do the same to protect even one innocent life from this epidemic.

QuoteIt restricts the rights of Americans...

Oh cry me a fucking river, this is the epitome of selfish bullshit. Acting like guns are anything more than a privilege... jesus christ.


The Founding Fathers also kept it where only "Head of Household" (white men) were allowed to vote... by changing that, our fundamental right of being the one's with powers were infringed by offering protection to everyone. How terrible that was that we lost that right.

There is as much system at play here with gun ownership as there is theocracy. We've discussed this a lot on here about how theocracies are awful things to govern law by the workings of religious teachings, it being a man made belief that has and still leads to the worst kind of actions human being commit against one another. Its only when theocracy is banned and a system of government is put in place that rational laws are able to emerge from it.
The same goes for gun ownership, just because it seems like something thats part of your culture doesn't mean its a good thing, and just because its everywhere doesn't mean its something that should be just accepted as norm. Guns, just like religion is a man made construct that when wide spread leads to fatal consequences. When religion, like guns, are contained and in small amounts, its far less likely to have negative consequences.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 05:04:55 PM
Considering I have petitioned and voted here in Texas to keep guns off of campuses and other places... don't worry I don't just post about it here.

Very good sir. That makes me glad. It doesn't make me any less annoyed by our collective absolutely abysmal Internet bitching to actual real world action ratio but I'm glad you took at least some action. And yes, I include myself in that collective group. So yes I fully expect you and anyone else to call me out on it if/when I perpetually bitch about something but don't otherwise do anything about it.

But yeah, I've kinda had it with this topic. I don't want to people shooting people. Wait, scratch that. I don't want people killing people. Which is one of the aspects of this issue which makes all the more annoying for me. Because some fucking jackass with obvious anger management issues can get into his car and drive around until he finds a group of bicycle enthusiasts on a ride and then brutally plow his car into them killing five and seriously injuring four more, as happened last week 20 miles from my house, and absolutely no one 200 miles from here will even know about it much less yammer endlessly on the internet about 'NOW can we talk about banning cars?' If you're on the 'no more guns' side of this issue, I strongly encourage you to take a few moments to really think about why that is. Not the no one talking about banning cars part, the you will never know about it if you don't live within 200 miles of here part. And then take a moment to really ask yourself just how fucking big this country is and how fucking many incidents just like this one might take place every month that you never hear about. And then take a moment to really, really consider your 'yeah but cars are useful so its ok that I choose not to bitch on the internet about that issue' stance on it.

And if you still feel that way after all that, remind me to call you the next time there's a potentially rabid raccoon in my chicken coop so you go in and clear it out armed with only a butter knife because 'guns serve no useful purpose' and then let me know how that works out for you. 

The bottom line is I'm god damn sick of it all. I'm sick of people finding the need to go kill as many people as they can. I'm sick of everyone else thinking that problem is caused by the availability of guns and as far as I can tell, being more or less completely unwilling to even discuss the possibility that there is much larger and much more sinister problem in need of a solution at hand. Namely the fact that some many seem compelled to want to kill others. And believe it or not, I'm also sick of guns being so god damn available.

Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 04:32:46 PM
In Taiwan, Japan and Australia, guns are illegal and shootings are extremely rare. Outlawing guns does indeed minimize shootings.

I'm sick of all the excuses. It's the guns. No guns, no gun deaths.

Guns are not illegal in Australia we have 1.9 million firearm license holders with just over 5 million registered guns for 24 million people.

We outlawed semi auto rifles and pump action semi auto shotguns for recreational shooters, semi auto pistols are legal here but semi auto rifles are not.
27 of our 813 firearm homicides from 1980-1995 were done with semi auto rifles before they were banned in 1996, semi auto rifles accounted for just over 1% of all firearm deaths before they were banned.

The Lindt siege offender used a shotgun that was banned 20 years ago, Curtis Chengs killer used a pistol that had never been registered in Australia despite all pistols being registered since the 1920's.

We had 67 firearm homicides with a firearm homicide rate of 0.3 per 100K in 1995 before our 1996 gun laws, guns were never really a problem in Australia.

I wonder how many Imams will condemn this killing of gays and bullshit in claiming this is unislamic.

Um Japan fixes it's numbers so I wouldn't count them. There are so many crimes that never see paper work because the culture believes that problems should be worked out, out side of courts. There are still a great deal of crime that goes on there they're just better at sweeping it under the carpet. And it's hard to say how many crimes are gun related when there is no documentation of it.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 06:10:26 PM
I own 10 guns and have several on list that I want... but yes... only evil and ignorant people want guns.

Here is what you seem incapable of grasping; "want" is not a good enough reason to justify innocent people dying. What I "want" is irrelevant compared to the "want" of a grieving mother, father who just lost a daughter to some nutjob stalker... a brother who watched his sister get shot three times in the face. What I "want" does not outweigh the lives lost because someone rational, normal, non-criminal guy lost his cool and shot his wife in anger. What I "want" is not more important than 32 dead students, 20 six and seven year olds, 23 bystandards eating lunch, 14 mailmen and the countless victims of just short "crimes of passion" that healthy members of society commit because human's ocassionally break down.

So don't fucking come in here acting like you know shit about me, or telling me that people "want" guns means jack-shit. I am a "responsible gun owner", and I would get rid of eveyone of my guns in a heartbeat if it meant others would do the same to protect even one innocent life from this epidemic.

Acting like I know anything about you? I'm just fucking returning the favor, after you spewed that vomit about me masturbating to guns. You really are one of those special people who will do or say something blatantly wrong and then screech like a wounded animal when someone returns the favor.

And for fucks sake ENOUGH about all the poor wounded wont someone think of the children bullshit. I don't WANT guns. I'm not objecting to your utter BULLSHIT because i WANT guns.

I want a

REAL SOLUTION

that will

ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING

You say you would give up all your guns if it would protect even one innocent life. I'm sorry but the world doesn't work that way. People who want to hurt people will find a way to make it happen and if you think getting rid of guns will limit them then you obviously aren't very imaginative. Until you ban limbs that's how it will always be. You would be giving up your guns for exactly nothing.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 12, 2016, 06:10:26 PMOh cry me a fucking river, this is the epitome of selfish bullshit. Acting like guns are anything more than a privilege... jesus christ.


The Founding Fathers also kept it where only "Head of Household" (white men) were allowed to vote... by changing that, our fundamental right of being the one's with powers were infringed by offering protection to everyone. How terrible that was that we lost that right.

How about them irrelevant analogies eh? As if the right to own an object can be compared to equal rights for people. Your argument is basically "well they changed that, so why not this?" Because this isn't that.

Anyway this is all beside the point I'm making which is that getting rid of guns will accomplish nothing. You cannot disempower killers by taking away one of their tools. They will just find a different tool.Instead of focusing all of your energy on a worthless attempt to get rid of one of their tools you should be focusing your efforts on changing the socioeconomic circumstances that led to them wanting to kill people. The only way to ACTUALLY eliminate violence is to mitigate the factors that drive them to commit it.

Quote from: doorknob on June 12, 2016, 09:20:17 PM
Um Japan fixes it's numbers so I wouldn't count them. There are so many crimes that never see paper work because the culture believes that problems should be worked out, out side of courts. There are still a great deal of crime that goes on there they're just better at sweeping it under the carpet. And it's hard to say how many crimes are gun related when there is no documentation of it.

Those cases are just being handled by chivalrous organizations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuza) with nothing but the best intentions. Like a real life Justice League. That deals in drugs and sex trafficking.

Quote from: baronvonrort on June 12, 2016, 08:42:48 PM
Guns are not illegal in Australia we have 1.9 million firearm license holders with just over 5 million registered guns for 24 million people.

We outlawed semi auto rifles and pump action semi auto shotguns for recreational shooters, semi auto pistols are legal here but semi auto rifles are not.
27 of our 813 firearm homicides from 1980-1995 were done with semi auto rifles before they were banned in 1996, semi auto rifles accounted for just over 1% of all firearm deaths before they were banned.

The Lindt siege offender used a shotgun that was banned 20 years ago, Curtis Chengs killer used a pistol that had never been registered in Australia despite all pistols being registered since the 1920's.

We had 67 firearm homicides with a firearm homicide rate of 0.3 per 100K in 1995 before our 1996 gun laws, guns were never really a problem in Australia.

I wonder how many Imams will condemn this killing of gays and bullshit in claiming this is unislamic.

This. Every word of it. I'm all for doing what Australia did in the US. But if you think for a minute that doing so will solve the issue of such an alarming number of whakos wanting to kill large groups of people, well lets just say I think you are woefully misinformed.

Doing what Australia did is definitely something I think we should do. But lets face it, ain't not one of you motherfuckers going to the internet and yammering about 'now can we ban the guns?' when some depressed and untreated schmuck uses a gun to off himself in his own garage. That is in fact the one and only problem one can claim that Australia had a positive net impact on without any debate.

Its a very worthy problem and one we should take note of and a solution we should consider emulating. But don't for a minute think that doing so will protect 4rd graders from a whack job who intends to get himself on CNN by killing as many of them as he can before he offs himself. Those whack jobs are gong to find a way to do what they intend to do no matter what and the issue that those whack jobs actually exist is something no one on the 'ban all guns now' side seems to be willing to talk about much less willing to deal with in any meaningful kind of way.

Tim McVeigh did not use nor discharge a single firearm when he killed 168 people. Charlie Pickett didn't need a gun to kill 5 people on bicycles last week. In fact ain't no gun law in the land that would've helped cause he used his pickup truck to do what he did. Now can we talk about banning cars? No? G'head and look at his FB page and then tell me with a straight face that you think he was a well-reasoned stable individual with absolutely no indication that he could end up killing a bunch of people: https://www.facebook.com/picketts.garage (https://www.facebook.com/picketts.garage) Now can we talk about the real problem? Or can we at least acknowledge that guns and their availability ain't it? No? Ok, lets go back to head in the sand/ban the guns and that'll solve the problem mode then... :rolleyes:

Wow!  Some very EMO people in here today.   

If laws prohibiting any particular behavior worked; making murder illegal would solve it all.  Has it?  Case closed. 

Interestingly; concerning mass shootings; historically speaking....................one of three things have stopped them all.  Someone with a gun shoots their ass; someone/s tackle them when the punks are reloading, or they run out of ammo.  Which would you prefer?  Keeping in mind NONE are guarantees.  Sometimes shit doesn't work out in a hard cold world; when your number comes up it; comes up.  If they get the drop on you; or you're standing next to the  back pack/pressure cooker, or they're faster and more accurate than you......................we all gotta go sometime.

All of the innocents slaughtered in the Orlando nightclub had a single trait in common. No guns.   Get it?  What's a better?  Roll of the dice.  A gun in a fire fight, or no gun?   It's a war, they're (not all muslims; just the ones not reformed at a personal level) amongst us, it'll be with us for decades.  Don't like it?  Too bad for you.  I don't like it either.  Feel better?  You shouldn't. 
   
Don't get me wrong; if you choose no gun..................I respect that.  You made the call as you thought best for you.  Win or lose....................you were right for you.   You're not right for me though. 

Bit of advice......................you're free to pay attention to, or ignore as much as you see fit.   I've used fire arms professionally my entire adult life; ran a former agency's ERT (SWAT to most of you) for the first two years of it's existence; been involved in six deadly force incidents (involving firearms) over the course of my life, and been involved in counter terrorism on all my over sea adventures. 

If you ARE EVER in a place where some awful shit like Orlando happens.  GTFO as if your life depends on it.  It does.  Don't stop, don't hesitate, don't wait for others! If you can't do that without attracting attention to yourself or others..............DON'T!  Fall down and pretend you're dead. Movement and/or noise will attract high speed fatal attention.  If you survive that; and subsequent events provide an opportunity to GTFO.............use it! 

There really aren't that many of us objective thinkers around, regardless of how we differ in opinion;..........we can't afford to lose you!       

Quote from: Flanker1Six on June 13, 2016, 12:09:39 AMIf laws prohibiting any particular behavior worked; making murder illegal would solve it all.  Has it?  Case closed.

Just because something can't be stopped doesn't mean you have to make it easy. Guns are legal to use for protection. Great! But unless you're a gun nut, you're unlikely to own one, and even those of us who own one might not maintain it because we never use the damn thing. If guns are not being used for their intended purpose, maybe it's time to rethink the laws surrounding them. And no, the answer isn't "encourage people to buy more guns." Guns are fucking expensive; most of the people gunned down at that bar probably couldn't afford one, much less dedicate time to properly training in its use and performing regular maintenance. Most of us have jobs to do, bills to pay, and lives to live. You can't ask people to keep and maintain a weapon they'll most likely never have to use, that's just impractical and unreasonable.

The fact of the matter is that countries with fewer guns don't have as much gun violence, and the murder rate is lower overall because it's a might bit harder to murder a crowd of people with a knife or a bow. Outlaws are the only ones who have guns in this situation, sure, but there aren't nearly as many gun-toting outlaws either, because guns wouldn't be something you could just buy at the corner store.

It is ridiculous to think that more guns is the answer. We have more guns in this country than anywhere else except for maybe a warzone, and it hasn't cut crime yet. That should really tell you something.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 13, 2016, 12:54:27 AM
Guns are legal to use for protection. Great! But unless you're a gun nut, you're unlikely to own one,

So I'm a gun nut? Good to know. Thanks for the heads up. BTW protection wasn't on the list of reasons I had when I bought my guns, but you seem to have it all figured out so who am I to argue?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBlwxqqAprQ

Not that it has anything to do with Islam.

(http://occupydemocrats.com/wp-content/uploads/mahmoud.jpg)

Mahmoud is saying all this despite of Islam, not because of it.
He should be watching his back if he persist being too "moderate".

There again, he might not mean what he says, engaging instead in damage control.
The image of Islam is taken a nasty blow.

I am a bit more skeptical and cynical.  Sorry if this upsetting.

Reality is a bitch.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 12, 2016, 04:59:26 PM
?

Im pretty sure there are actually some people talking about making guns illegal in this thread.

I was talking about Munch's post you responded.

For more than 3000 years, Egypt maintained one of the most stable civilizations the World has ever known in one of the hottest regions on the planet.
Please stop the nonsense about heat and its effects on the human psyche. Leonard Jeffries was spewing such garbage about the cold and white people 25 years ago.
Human beings are among the planet's most adaptable creatures. Shame on anyone who thinks otherwise.
By this reasoning, Eskimos and people from the equator should be the planet's most violent peoples - they are not.

Quote from: pr126 on June 13, 2016, 02:23:59 AM
Not that it has anything to do with Islam.

And these are the ones jelaous  of sharia law I guess. One of them is celebrating the latest terrorist act that caused 50 lives.

Christian Pastor Celebrates Nightclub Massacre: “There’s 50 Less Pedophiles in This World”

Christian Pastor Calls for 'executing more gay people' after Orlando Mass Shooting. He openly recognises a terrorist act as an official execution. This piece of shit should be arrested and jailed by a good punching on the way. Don't come back with freedom of speech or 'oh but he doesn't kill'.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/06/12/christian-pastor-celebrates-nightclub-massacre-theres-50-less-pedophiles-in-this-world/

Christian Pastor Says Gays 'Worthy Of Death' At Conference With 3 GOP Presidential Candidates

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/christian_pastor_says_gays_worthy_of_death_at_conference_with_3_gop_presidential_candidates

Why Is the Media Ignoring Ted Cruz’s Embrace of ‘Kill the Gays’ Pastor?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/post_10496_b_8544540.html


Megachurch Pastor says ‘gays must be put to death’

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2014/09/megachurch-pastor-says-gays-must-be-put-to-death/


TN pastor vows not to ‘repent’ for homophobia: God says gays ‘must be put to death’

http://www.rawstory.com/2014/09/tn-pastor-vows-not-to-repent-for-homophobia-god-says-gays-must-be-put-to-death/


Pastor Sparks Anger by Saying 'Gays Should Be Executed'

http://www.christianpost.com/news/bible-says-gays-should-be-executed-and-i-believe-every-word-says-arizona-pastor-99583/#1iuzIWiHbBg7x1IW.99


Christian Pastor: Government Should Kill Gays

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMkZ02NrxP8


Christian Pastor Calls for Killing All Gay People

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w83kIAfuKoE

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 13, 2016, 05:04:28 AM
And these are the jelaous ones of sharia law I guess. One of them is celebrating the latest terrorist act that caused 50 lives.

Christian Pastor Celebrates Nightclub Massacre: “There’s 50 Less Pedophiles in This World”

Christian Pastor Calls for 'executing more gay people' after Orlando Mass Shooting. He openly recognises a terrorist act as an official execution. This piece of shit should be arrested and jailed by a good punching on the way. Don't come back with freedom of speech or 'oh but he doesn't kill'.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/06/12/christian-pastor-celebrates-nightclub-massacre-theres-50-less-pedophiles-in-this-world/

Christian Pastor Says Gays 'Worthy Of Death' At Conference With 3 GOP Presidential Candidates

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/christian_pastor_says_gays_worthy_of_death_at_conference_with_3_gop_presidential_candidates

Why Is the Media Ignoring Ted Cruz’s Embrace of ‘Kill the Gays’ Pastor?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/post_10496_b_8544540.html


Megachurch Pastor says ‘gays must be put to death’

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2014/09/megachurch-pastor-says-gays-must-be-put-to-death/


TN pastor vows not to ‘repent’ for homophobia: God says gays ‘must be put to death’

http://www.rawstory.com/2014/09/tn-pastor-vows-not-to-repent-for-homophobia-god-says-gays-must-be-put-to-death/


Pastor Sparks Anger by Saying 'Gays Should Be Executed'

http://www.christianpost.com/news/bible-says-gays-should-be-executed-and-i-believe-every-word-says-arizona-pastor-99583/#1iuzIWiHbBg7x1IW.99


Christian Pastor: Government Should Kill Gays

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMkZ02NrxP8


Christian Pastor Calls for Killing All Gay People

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w83kIAfuKoE

Now, there's a problem worth talking about!

Let me know when Christians will start mass murdering gays in the name of Jesus.
Or executed by the state like in Iran?
Does anyone expecting that to happen any time soon?

Really?

Some people never learn. You can't fix stupid.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck0H6rAW0AANYIX.jpg)

Quote from: pr126 on June 13, 2016, 05:10:48 AM
Let me know when Christians will start mass murdering gays in the name of Jesus.
Does anyone expecting that to happen any time soon?
Really?

It happened in the 1980s - or don't you remember? All those young, gay, black men? - killed by a self-loathing young, gay, black man, who happened to be Christian ... Who taught you history, that Christians are innocent of mass murder? How about 13 million American Indians? How about the million or so Muslims slaughtered during the Crusades? How about the 1/4 million old women burned for witchcraft during the Inquisition? How about the 30 million S American natives slaughtered by European Christian invaders? How about the Muslims slaughtered in the Balkans during the Clinton Administration? Since when have Muslims been the only ones to kill en masse? And let's not forget the 6 million Jews slaughtered in the Holocaust. Good Catholics and Lutherans did that ... Oh, yes - how about the 1/4 million Phillipinos slaughtered by US Christians when they resisted our take over after we helped them boot out Spain?

Quote from: pr126 on June 13, 2016, 05:10:48 AM
Let me know when Christians will start mass murdering gays in the name of Jesus.
Or executed by the state like in Iran?
Does anyone expecting that to happen any time soon?

Really?

Christians do not execute gays in masses, they are killing them one by one. And most of it doesn't appear in news and when it does it is defined as 'hate crime' which is an umbrella concept including killing-torture of people from other races or thnics groups, not just lgbt groups. Culture found a perfect way of 'normalisig' the act distancing it as some mentall ill monster's isolated act. Exactly like mass shootings. Defining the perpetrator as something 'unnatural' to deny that this is the default culture. Defense mechnaism.

It's very common and rising. As lgbt people get more rights and get more access to the every day life, they started to be targeted more in the US.

EU and US don't give exact numbers, but cases are listed in even wiki one by one AND nobody actually knows -or wants to know?- how many lgbt people are murdered with religious motives. It's a fucking sham. Completely political and commercial screen. And when you have the boogeyman of Islamic terrorism and in every day media, Western people almost believe that this doesn't exist in their countries.

Only in Brazil 2586 lgbt peole were killed between 1980-2016. I have posted many links here about the death reports which noone reads and actually ineterested in if it is not an islamic terrorist attacks. The biggest one was transgender people murdered in 2016.

More than half of the transwomen killed in the US is BLACK. according to the lgbt communities, a transwoman is killed in EVERY 29 HOURS in the world.

Especially transgender homicides almost never take place in media for many reasons. They are isolated, pushed away by family and society they live in it is not even heard that they are dead but only take splace in transgender communities which is banned from almost every mainstream sources.

Most of the authorities in religious areas do not bother to look into their murders and supported culturally by the society. These are not just obscure areas. Anywhere beyond well known big cities is enough this to happen in the West. As they are isolated and often cannot live 'normalised lives' they are either sex workers or working in a similar industry and this makes everything worse.

Western culture overall, Christian countries have a good way of not seeing what is going on behind curtains with LGBT groups. There is a constant moronic comparison with the Middle East countries and over all the perception is pretty crippled. Not just about this...people compare college rape issue in colleges with ISIL kidnapping women and selling them as sex slaves as an argument against rape culture and 'regressive left'. The Western perception is this ridiculous and fucked up.


So yes REALLY, Christians murder lgbt people every day. Their style is different.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 13, 2016, 05:30:04 AM
It happened in the 1980s - or don't you remember? All those young, gay, black men? - killed by a self-loathing young, gay, black man, who happened to be Christian ... Who taught you history, that Christians are innocent of mass murder? How about 13 million American Indians? How about the million or so Muslims slaughtered during the Crusades? How about the 1/4 million old women burned for witchcraft during the Inquisition? How about the 30 million S American natives slaughtered by European Christian invaders? How about the Muslims slaughtered in the Balkans during the Clinton Administration? Since when have Muslims been the only ones to kill en masse? And let's not forget the 6 million Jews slaughtered in the Holocaust. Good Catholics and Lutherans did that ... Oh, yes - how about the 1/4 million Phillipinos slaughtered by US Christians when they resisted our take over after we helped them boot out Spain?

It doesn't count as genocide or mass shooting or atrocity for pr126 if Western or Jewish or any nonislamic people are commiting it. Seriously. Don't waste your breath.

Quote from: pr126 on June 13, 2016, 02:23:59 AM


Not that it has anything to do with Islam.

Has to do with homophobia.  Not that ... is the only reason why Americans like to kill each other.  Mostly we do domestic killings over troubled marriages/families or suicide.

And yes, Islam does encourage homophobia, as does Christianity.  So when are you tearing down not just the mosques in Britain, but the churches, and the orthodox synagogues?  They all encourage homophobia.  And be sure to establish a dictatorship and abolish free speech.

Problem is, homophobia is a medical condition, not a political act, not a choice.  Like fear of heights ... which I do have ... the solution is medical.  Neither religion nor police action will cure our illness.

Quote from: pr126 on June 13, 2016, 05:10:48 AM
Let me know when Christians will start mass murdering gays in the name of Jesus.
Or executed by the state like in Iran?
Does anyone expecting that to happen any time soon?

Really?

Yes, and killing Jews too.  Christians are a clear and present danger.  But I would be afraid too, if the majority of my neighbors were Muslim.

Quote from: pr126 on June 13, 2016, 05:25:10 AM
Some people never learn. You can't fix stupid.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck0H6rAW0AANYIX.jpg)

Some people, R and L, have to turn everything into a political issue.  Homophobia is a medical issue.  The problem of the perp, wasn't his choice of weapons, but that he was insane.  Guns increased the death count, but that is a symptom, not a cause.  In the US we decided to liberate crazy folk from the nut house about 40 years ago ...  there was instant mayhem when home based nut cases went off their meds.  They still do, just had a conversation with a friend this weekend, one of his co-workers is clearly "off his meds" ... a potential murderer.  But per civil rights for madmen, we can't do anything about it, until after he kills someone.  And most mental cases aren't even under care.

Quote from: Baruch on June 13, 2016, 06:45:14 AM
Has to do with homophobia.  Not that ... is the only reason why Americans like to kill each other.  Mostly we do domestic killings over troubled marriages/families or suicide.

And yes, Islam does encourage homophobia, as does Christianity.  So when are you tearing down not just the mosques in Britain, but the churches, and the orthodox synagogues?  They all encourage homophobia.  And be sure to establish a dictatorship and abolish free speech.

Problem is, homophobia is a medical condition, not a political act, not a choice.  Like fear of heights ... which I do have ... the solution is medical.  Neither religion nor police action will cure our illness.

Problem is, if homophobia is a mental condition, it's one that's encouraged by these cult organizations as their accepted norm.

Hate speeches in churches and mosques needs to by cut down, since they are public places

Quote from: Munch on June 13, 2016, 06:53:12 AM
Problem is, if homophobia is a mental condition, it's one that's encouraged by these cult organizations as their accepted norm.

Hate speeches in churches and mosques needs to by cut down, since they are public places

In Europe, you can stop hate speech, because you have no constitutional protection that makes it hard to ban ... in the US we can ban yelling "fire", but beyond that it is difficult in the US.  In fact, I would like Europeans to ban all speech, unless your commissar has given prior-approval ;-)  Either you allow free speech, and live with the negative consequences ... or you establish hell on Earth.  I know which alternative the Europeans will choose, same as other continents.  The US may also choose 1984 ... out of European envy.

I am glad that when I experience acrophobia, that it doesn't include the urge to kill people.  If it did, I would not justify my criminal actions as a civil right.  I don't think there is a cure for acrophobia ... I just stay away from high places.  This perp should have stayed away from gay people to control his out of control adrenal glands (fight or flight).

Quote from: Baruch on June 13, 2016, 07:00:41 AM
In Europe, you can stop hate speech, because you have no constitutional protection that makes it hard to ban ... in the US we can ban yelling "fire", but beyond that it is difficult in the US.  In fact, I would like Europeans to ban all speech, unless your commissar has given prior-approval ;-)  Either you allow free speech, and live with the negative consequences ... or you establish hell on Earth.  I know which alternative the Europeans will choose, same as other continents.  The US may also choose 1984 ... out of European envy.

I am glad that when I experience acrophobia, that it doesn't include the urge to kill people.  If it did, I would not justify my criminal actions as a civil right.  I don't think there is a cure for acrophobia ... I just stay away from high places.  This perp should have stayed away from gay people to control is out of control adrenal glands (fight or flight).

People coming here from elsewhere must accept our laws and understand our rights and the rights of others. We will not allow the establishment of Sharia enclaves in the US. Simple as that. Muslims going to Europe might get away w/that there but not here. Here you can keep whatever rule you like for yourself - but you cannot impose that rule on others, even if it means that you have a stroke as you fill w/hatred.

Agreed ... ban all canon law, including Christian and Jewish.  It is Catholic canon law that protected the evil priests and bishops who covered it up.  Civil law wouldn't have allowed that.  Basically religious law creates a state within a state ... and we already have the CIA for that ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on June 13, 2016, 07:15:58 AM
Agreed ... ban all canon law, including Christian and Jewish.  It is Catholic canon law that protected the evil priests and bishops who covered it up.  Civil law wouldn't have allowed that.  Basically religious law creates a state within a state ... and we already have the CIA for that ;-)

Yes - and that was damned disgusting. But, then, they'd've not gotten away w/it if they've not had that kind of money in the first place. I would never have given them blanket tax-free status. They'd've gotten tax deductions for charity like any other business enterprise.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 12, 2016, 03:07:54 PM
Well, it's not just a fear in this case. It is reality. 

Don't confuse campaign rhetoric with reality. Same with NRA propaganda.

Quote from: Baruch on June 13, 2016, 07:15:58 AM
Agreed ... ban all canon law, including Christian and Jewish.  It is Catholic canon law that protected the evil priests and bishops who covered it up.  Civil law wouldn't have allowed that.  Basically religious law creates a state within a state ... and we already have the CIA for that ;-)

You can have my cannon when you pry it from the mud in the wood behind my house.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 13, 2016, 07:13:09 AM
People coming here from elsewhere must accept our laws and understand our rights and the rights of others. We will not allow the establishment of Sharia enclaves in the US. Simple as that. Muslims going to Europe might get away w/that there but not here. Here you can keep whatever rule you like for yourself - but you cannot impose that rule on others, even if it means that you have a stroke as you fill w/hatred.

Muslims are nowhere near a threat in Europe or in the US as it has been painted in the media for the last decade.

And that propaganda IS harming West itself severely.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 13, 2016, 08:28:58 AM
Muslims are nowhere near a threat in Europe or in the US as it has been painted in the media for the last decade.

And that propaganda IS harming West itself severely.

Not saying that they are.
What I am saying is that they will have to live by our laws. There can't be any isolated enclaves that are laws unto themselves.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 13, 2016, 08:34:51 AM
Not saying that they are.
What I am saying is that they will have to live by our laws. There can't be any isolated enclaves that are laws unto themselves.

That goes without saying. It's not even a question. Those morons talking about sharia law demand is just...LOL

Quote from: Johan on June 13, 2016, 01:12:34 AM
So I'm a gun nut? Good to know. Thanks for the heads up.

I said "unlikely to own a gun." Not a gun nut either, but I own a gun. Most people don't.

Quote from: Johan on June 13, 2016, 01:12:34 AMBTW protection wasn't on the list of reasons I had when I bought my guns

Never said it was. My little crow-shooter isn't going to help me much against a home invader.

Quote from: Johan on June 13, 2016, 01:12:34 AMbut you seem to have it all figured out so who am I to argue?

You just want to have an argument, and you don't care what the other person is actually making a case for.

In the US:

Supermarkets:   37,716
McDonalds:        14,350
Starbucks:         10,843


Gun shops:        64,747

Quote from: reasonist on June 13, 2016, 11:17:40 AM
In the US:

Supermarkets:   37,716
McDonalds:        14,350
Starbucks:         10,843


Gun shops:        64,747

Hair Salons: 86,000

Jesus fucking Christmas time to ban fancy hair Americans like it too much.

Your first one, supermarkets, is deceptive. How about we include markets that are not supermarkets? Every mini mart, Farm stand, and pharmacy with a grocery section. Numbers start to look pretty different don't they?

Same for the other 2. Its not the number of McDonald's in the US it's the number of restaurants. It's not the number of Starbucks in the us. It's every place in America you can buy a cup of coffee.

After all your gun store. Umber includes every place you can buy a gun, right?

Your numbers are deceptive but thankfully the deception was not that good.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 13, 2016, 12:06:29 PM
Hair Salons: 86,000

Jesus fucking Christmas time to ban fancy hair Americans like it too much.

Your first one, supermarkets, is deceptive. How about we include markets that are not supermarkets? Every mini mart, Farm stand, and pharmacy with a grocery section. Numbers start to look pretty different don't they?

Same for the other 2. Its not the number of McDonald's in the US it's the number of restaurants. It's not the number of Starbucks in the us. It's every place in America you can buy a cup of coffee.

After all your gun store. Umber includes every place you can buy a gun, right?

Your numbers are deceptive but thankfully the deception was not that good.

64,747 is probably based on the number of active FFL's at some point in time. Most of those FFL holders don't have a brick and mortar stores where they sell guns. Many of them don't sell guns to the public at all. The real number of retail gun shops in the US is probably closer to the number of Starbucks or McDonald's than even supermarkets. That's even if you include the supermarkets (ie Walmart) that sell guns.

Quote from: pr126 on June 13, 2016, 05:25:10 AM
Some people never learn. You can't fix stupid.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck0H6rAW0AANYIX.jpg)

This really is a problem of organized theists vs the rest of the world.  The religions that have a strong hierarchy and priesthood are the problem.  These organizations always spew hate and us vs them.  And always will, since that is how they make their living and stay wealthy.  I see organized religions as THE problem of the world.  It has been in the past and will be in the future. 

Quote from: reasonist on June 13, 2016, 11:17:40 AM
In the US:

Supermarkets:   37,716
McDonalds:        14,350
Starbucks:         10,843


Gun shops:        64,747

I consider McDonalds and Starbucks to be more threatening ... but not Supermarkets ;-)

Quote from: marom1963 on June 13, 2016, 07:13:09 AM
People coming here from elsewhere must accept our laws and understand our rights and the rights of others. We will not allow the establishment of Sharia enclaves in the US. Simple as that. Muslims going to Europe might get away w/that there but not here. Here you can keep whatever rule you like for yourself - but you cannot impose that rule on others, even if it means that you have a stroke as you fill w/hatred.

lol understand your rights, while your country is bombing their fellow Muslims all around the world to mush. War is war. You can't wage war without expecting casualties on your own side. The guy was an admirer of ISIS, so if he didn't kill these club goers, he likely would have killed some other people eventually.  America had this coming, and has it coming again a hundred times over. How soft are Americans becoming? You're allowed to bomb the shit out of Muslims, but then when they take the war to you on your lands, the people whine about how unfair the Muslim terrorists are being. The Muslim terrorists do not have to follow any rules about keeping the war in the mid east and out of your country. America asked for this war. In war, people take hits on both sides.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 13, 2016, 02:12:40 PM
lol understand your rights, while your country is bombing their fellow Muslims all around the world to mush. War is war. You can't wage war without expecting casualties on your own side. The guy was an admirer of ISIS, so if he didn't kill these club goers, he likely would have killed some other people eventually.  America had this coming, and has it coming again a hundred times over. How soft are Americans becoming? You're allowed to bomb the shit out of Muslims, but then when they take the war to you on your lands, the people whine about how unfair the Muslim terrorists are being. The Muslim terrorists do not have to follow any rules about keeping the war in the mid east and out of your country. America asked for this war. In war, people take hits on both sides.

I was talking about people who come here as immigrants - to live among us, not to make war on us.
If this particular attack can be shown to have been due to anti-gay bias, America had that coming? Why?
You do realize that the war in the Middle East has be restrained - that the US and Russia have withheld the full force of their might? In a few short, lazy weeks, the Russians reduced Syria to a pile of dust - w/o working up a sweat. There won't be any more Russian airplanes going down for awhile. The stupid bastards over in the Middle East had best wake up before it's too late. They just might get Donald Trump to deal with come January - and they might just find the whole coast of western Asia leveled over night. Millions of dead men, women, and children. It wouldn't take much to do it. You can tweak the 1200 pound grizzly bear on its nose for only so long.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 13, 2016, 02:43:15 PM
I was talking about people who come here as immigrants - to live among us, not to make war on us.
If this particular attack can be shown to have been due to anti-gay bias, America had that coming? Why?

I have nothing but love for the LGBTQ community. My avatar is a pansexual transgender person. The thing is though, you can't force Muslims to accept homosexuality. You can have better education in schools that teaches kids that there's nothing wrong with being gay or trans, but you can't force Muslims to accept or respect this stuff. The best you can do is try to educate them, and if that fails, then lock them up in cases where they commit an act of violence against a gay person. That's really all that can be done. Do Muslims have to respect the LGBTQ community? No, they aren't obligated to do that, and they never will be.

What do you mean if the attack can be shown to be due to anti-gay bias? The attack wasn't because of just that. That's silly. The guy made a call to pledge his allegiance to the Islamic State. The Islamic State, a group that is at war with the United States, has called for Muslims around the world to act out in violence against Westerners. That's what this guy did. Whether he was a lone wolf or not, he was fulfilling his duty to the leader of IS who has called for these type of attacks, and he was fulfilling his duty to Allah. He had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State, and their leader has called for Westerners to be killed. Not just gay Westerners. The guy was a sick son of a bitch with an allegiance to ISIS. If he didn't act out on the day he did, he would have been a ticking timebomb. Anything probably could have set him off. A draw Muhammad contest in his hometown maybe? I don't know, but if you're saying that the attack was due to anti-gay bias and that's that, I think that thinking is way too simplistic.

QuoteYou do realize that the war in the Middle East has be restrained - that the US and Russia have withheld the full force of their might? In a few short, lazy weeks, the Russians reduced Syria to a pile of dust - w/o working up a sweat. There won't be any more Russian airplanes going down for awhile. The stupid bastards over in the Middle East had best wake up before it's too late. They just might get Donald Trump to deal with come January - and they might just find the whole coast of western Asia leveled over night. Millions of dead men, women, and children. It wouldn't take much to do it. You can tweak the 1200 pound grizzly bear on its nose for only so long.

Yes, of course the US could be hitting Muslims overseas harder, but so what? Bombing hospitals and weddings is already plenty enough to piss off Muslims at home and abroad and to get them to act out in violence against Westerners.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 13, 2016, 12:06:29 PM
Hair Salons: 86,000

Jesus fucking Christmas time to ban fancy hair Americans like it too much.

Your first one, supermarkets, is deceptive. How about we include markets that are not supermarkets? Every mini mart, Farm stand, and pharmacy with a grocery section. Numbers start to look pretty different don't they?

Same for the other 2. Its not the number of McDonald's in the US it's the number of restaurants. It's not the number of Starbucks in the us. It's every place in America you can buy a cup of coffee.

After all your gun store. Umber includes every place you can buy a gun, right?

Your numbers are deceptive but thankfully the deception was not that good.

First of all, they are not MY numbers, but I can see that I hit a nerve. As a Canadian, I can only shake my head about the gun culture to the south. My question would be though: how is it working for you? Just by the numbers of the CDC, the US had 13,286 people die from guns and over 28,000 wounded last year. Your gun homicide rate is 30 times than the rate of the UK for example. 10 times the one here in Canada. You had 372 mass shootings last year and 64 school shootings. But of course...the second amendment. The one written for front loaded muskets in 1789, that one. Btw, the British are not coming anymore.

Quote from: reasonist on June 13, 2016, 03:36:20 PM
First of all, they are not MY numbers, but I can see that I hit a nerve. As a Canadian, I can only shake my head about the gun culture to the south. My question would be though: how is it working for you? Just by the numbers of the CDC, the US had 13,286 people die from guns and over 28,000 wounded last year. Your gun homicide rate is 30 times than the rate of the UK for example. 10 times the one here in Canada. You had 372 mass shootings last year and 64 school shootings. But of course...the second amendment. The one written for front loaded muskets in 1789, that one. Btw, the British are not coming anymore.

I've already given my answer to this argument I'm this thread and it hasn't changed. There are a lot of gun deaths in the US. Taking away guns would mean there would be a lot of deaths using some other method.  The only way to reduce killing is to address the causes. Taking away one of the tools accomplishes nothing.

And yes you did hit a nerve. It's the same nerve that always gets hit when people use bullshit numbers and analogies in order to paint ad dramatic picture.

It's like Randy Carson is posting in this thread...

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 13, 2016, 03:23:15 PM
I have nothing but love for the LGBTQ community. My avatar is a pansexual transgender person. The thing is though, you can't force Muslims to accept homosexuality. You can have better education in schools that teaches kids that there's nothing wrong with being gay or trans, but you can't force Muslims to accept or respect this stuff. The best you can do is try to educate them, and if that fails, then lock them up in cases where they commit an act of violence against a gay person. That's really all that can be done. Do Muslims have to respect the LGBTQ community? No, they aren't obligated to do that, and they never will be.

What do you mean if the attack can be shown to be due to anti-gay bias? The attack wasn't because of just that. That's silly. The guy made a call to pledge his allegiance to the Islamic State. The Islamic State, a group that is at war with the United States, has called for Muslims around the world to act out in violence against Westerners. That's what this guy did. Whether he was a lone wolf or not, he was fulfilling his duty to the leader of IS who has called for these type of attacks, and he was fulfilling his duty to Allah. He had pledged allegiance to the Islamic State, and their leader has called for Westerners to be killed. Not just gay Westerners. The guy was a sick son of a bitch with an allegiance to ISIS. If he didn't act out on the day he did, he would have been a ticking timebomb. Anything probably could have set him off. A draw Muhammad contest in his hometown maybe? I don't know, but if you're saying that the attack was due to anti-gay bias and that's that, I think that thinking is way too simplistic.
Yes, of course the US could be hitting Muslims overseas harder, but so what? Bombing hospitals and weddings is already plenty enough to piss off Muslims at home and abroad and to get them to act out in violence against Westerners.

You awaken the tit for tat mentality, you had best have an equal amount of tit for tat. You get someone like Ronald Reagan in office, and he hit Kaddaffi so hard that nobody heard from Kaddaffi for 20 years. Trump has Putin for a pal. The two of them would run right down the coast from Turkey to the border of Israel and leave a wasteland in their wake. We're not talking about in any shape to retaliate any time soon. As for Muslim pals elsewhere - they'll be more than a little bit cowed. It would be carpet bombing like you haven't seen since WW 2. Then, forget about the oil. It would just be taken. The American public has long since been primed for just such a war. The average American would not wring his/her hands in grief. The economy would boom. The troops would be heroes. And Muslims in America would have to hide in their basements. David may have beaten Goliath - but we all know that the Bible was full of shit.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 13, 2016, 04:00:19 PM
It's like Randy Carson is posting in this thread...

Who?

Quote from: reasonist on June 13, 2016, 03:36:20 PM
First of all, they are not MY numbers, but I can see that I hit a nerve. As a Canadian, I can only shake my head about the gun culture to the south. My question would be though: how is it working for you? Just by the numbers of the CDC, the US had 13,286 people die from guns and over 28,000 wounded last year. Your gun homicide rate is 30 times than the rate of the UK for example. 10 times the one here in Canada. You had 372 mass shootings last year and 64 school shootings. But of course...the second amendment. The one written for front loaded muskets in 1789, that one. Btw, the British are not coming anymore.

Except in the entertainment business. It seems that everyone's British these days.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 13, 2016, 03:51:23 PM
I've already given my answer to this argument I'm this thread and it hasn't changed. There are a lot of gun deaths in the US. Taking away guns would mean there would be a lot of deaths using some other method.  The only way to reduce killing is to address the causes. Taking away one of the tools accomplishes nothing.

And yes you did hit a nerve. It's the same nerve that always gets hit when people use bullshit numbers and analogies in order to paint ad dramatic picture.

It's not a dramatic picture, but a realistic one. I know the gun enthusiasts don't like to see the numbers.
If strict gun control doesn't work, then how can one explain the numbers in countries who have them? And if we apply the environment during which the second amendment was written, everybody can have a musket at home, no problem.
It's really simple, intelligent people use systems and information from others that work, to their advantage. Others insist on a 227 year old privilege to abuse it and buy AR15s for 'self defense'. Look, I am here to give an opinion like everybody else. If you disagree that's fine, such is democracy. But I give facts to think about. No personal insults, just honest opinion.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 13, 2016, 04:04:37 PM
Who?

The nutjob Christian on here who ignores any evidence (statistics) and just continues to insist that his side is special and thus right (Americans are "special" and what works for literally every other human in the world wouldn't work for us).

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 13, 2016, 03:51:23 PM
I've already given my answer to this argument I'm this thread and it hasn't changed. There are a lot of gun deaths in the US. Taking away guns would mean there would be a lot of deaths using some other method.

Most other methods don't allow you to wound or kill dozens of people before being stopped.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

Quote from: reasonist on June 13, 2016, 05:01:14 PM
It's not a dramatic picture, but a realistic one. I know the gun enthusiasts don't like to see the numbers.
If strict gun control doesn't work, then how can one explain the numbers in countries who have them? And if we apply the environment during which the second amendment was written, everybody can have a musket at home, no problem.
It's really simple, intelligent people use systems and information from others that work, to their advantage. Others insist on a 227 year old privilege to abuse it and buy AR15s for 'self defense'. Look, I am here to give an opinion like everybody else. If you disagree that's fine, such is democracy. But I give facts to think about. No personal insults, just honest opinion.

It seems to me that the constitution is used much like the bible is used by christians.  Cherry picked.  Yes, the second amendment said that we could have arms.  But even then, what did than mean, exactly?  Can/should I have had the right to buy as many cannon as I wanted?  Don't know.  Was the constitution designed to be a static document?  Was there no way for us to change it?  Or must we always allow slavery, only vote if we were landed, white and male?  I do think the creators of the constitution had a way for allowing this document to be changed--to grow with the time and changes to society.  I think they called it the amendment system.  That is what the Founding Father's wanted--the ability to change.  As a nation we have the power to change any amendment or idea of the constitution.  That was built into the document.  So, we could amend the 2nd amendment to read any way we want it to read.  We just need to have the collective will to do it.  But, of course, it will never happen, for as the Supreme Court said, money is free speech--and the NRA has more free speech than one can shake a stick at!

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 13, 2016, 06:19:18 PM
Most other methods don't allow you to wound or kill dozens of people before being stopped.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

If you really think theres no way for one guy to hurt a lot of people without using guns then I just don't know where you have been living all this time.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 13, 2016, 06:46:00 PM
If you really think theres no way for one guy to hurt a lot of people without using guns then I just don't know where you have been living all this time.

Yep, Timothy McVeigh used a spork ... real fast.  Nah ... a truck bomb.  Gotta outlaw all trucks etc.

Quote from: reasonist on June 13, 2016, 05:01:14 PM
It's not a dramatic picture, but a realistic one. I know the gun enthusiasts don't like to see the numbers.
If strict gun control doesn't work, then how can one explain the numbers in countries who have them? And if we apply the environment during which the second amendment was written, everybody can have a musket at home, no problem.
It's really simple, intelligent people use systems and information from others that work, to their advantage. Others insist on a 227 year old privilege to abuse it and buy AR15s for 'self defense'. Look, I am here to give an opinion like everybody else. If you disagree that's fine, such is democracy. But I give facts to think about. No personal insults, just honest opinion.

Now I'm a gun enthusiast again. People like you just cant stand it when someone who frankly doesnt give the slightest shit about guns questions your reactionary screeching for laws that take away rights while accomplishing nothing. If I thought for even one second that passing a law banning guns would eliminate violence, mass killings, school attacks and so on then I would be on fucking board in a second.

But i DONT believe that and none of you have managed to convince me. Not that any of you have really tried, instead favoring yelling at or insulting me.

You keep spewing the gun death numbers but none of you address the real weakness of your positions which is that none of you actually knows whether or not banning guns will accomplish anything. You try to cover it up by citing the effect of gun bans in other countries, but other countries are NOT THE UNITED STATES. Just about every culture and ethnicity on the planet is crammed together in this county and various problems exacerbate the friction between them. No other country on Earth has to deal with the cultural and economic complexities we deal with.

The bottom line I'm trying to express here is that people who want to kill someone right now aren't going to stop wanting to fucking kill someone just because you take their guns away. They WILL find another way to make it happen. It is GUARANTEED. Human nature DEMANDS it. We are one bad gene away from being savage monkeys that eat their own young.

The ways this behavor is typically mitigated is by environmental conditions. Everyone around you is just like you. Theres plenty of food water and shelter. No scary or different ideas. You feel a sense of accomplishment in life. Theres nobody in the community whose sole purpose in life is to alarm you with slanted stories or lies. As long as some of these conditions are in place, our violent natures are suppressed for the most part.

But in a place like America where not everyone has those things you get violence.

As to the other thing, I dont mind seeing numbers, but I do mind seeing bullshit comparisons. Comparing every gun store in America to every McDonalds in America is not an equivalent comparison. Its an emotional comparison, which is designed to make the reader believe gun stores are absolutely everywhere. As if there are 6 gun stores on every street that has a McDonalds. Please learn to analogy.

Quote from: Baruch on June 13, 2016, 06:51:45 PM
Yep, Timothy McVeigh used a spork ... real fast.  Nah ... a truck bomb.  Gotta outlaw all trucks etc.

...or make it impossible for anyone to buy so many chemicals to make such a bomb.  :-)) 

If we go by that theory, we have to outlaw ropes, neck ties and butter knives too. The sensible way would be to make it tougher to buy a gun and if one qualifies, the owner has to be registered. Criminal record is a no no, known mental issues etc. etc. It works in so may countries. Nobody wants to take guns away from law abiding, stable citizens. I don't think Clinton has that in mind.
Mike you are right, the amendment can be amended, that's why they are called amendments.

LOL, you assume that I have an emotional investment in this topic. I couldn't care less if you are a gun enthusiast or not, that surely doesn't keep me up at night.
Again, facts not hypothesis are what counts. Further, nobody said to take guns away from anybody, just control their ownership. What are gun owners afraid of? To have their name registered like a driver's license?
And the age old argument that what works in so many other countries, doesn't work in the US. Everything else that works in the civilized world, works in the US. You are not an island amidst a global village. And I hope you are not saying that Americans are intrinsic killers, guns just make it so much easier to kill, especially large numbers.
And no, I am not trying to convince you and I have neither yelled nor insulted you. I would appreciate if you return the favor. We are here to discuss topics open and honestly, disagreements are bound to happen.

Example ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Nothing in there about a Federal Reserve, an IRS, of losing the English right of being innocent until proven guilty ... that was all covered by subsequent enabling legislation, so the amendment could say whatever folks in power want it to say.

So no need to actually modify the 1st or 2nd amendments ... just make new enabling legislation.

This might only make sense to the American posters ... we are used to excessive judicial interpretation, even when the President isn't completely distorting legislation with signing statements (ukase).

Correction:

You are Canadian etc correct?  You don't know what it is like to be an American.  And I don't mean that as an insult.  It is American to hate the government (for one reason or another) ... even if you work for it.

No global village for me, thanks.  I already have to put up with too many crazy Americans.  But maybe we can put that one world government in place ... like Hillary wants.  If we had a one world government, I would be voting for Amer-exit.

End correction.

In the abstract, I don't mind if people die, we are all supposed to die.  I see no point in trying to prevent people dying, not even my own family members ... because I don't have X-men powers.  I can try, but only fail.  Mortality wins every time.  I see no point in preventing WW III either ... that is way bigger than me.  If it comes, I will fight, but I won't think I will survive it.  Some may, just not me.  Now that doesn't mean I don't have sympathy and empathy.  But when you live in a abattoir, you are going to have to become clinical toward all the dead cattle or go hide in a corner and cry.  Besides, I eat steak myself.

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 13, 2016, 06:46:00 PM
If you really think theres no way for one guy to hurt a lot of people without using guns then I just don't know where you have been living all this time.

You can't exactly buy bombs at a corner store, genius.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxvqSFRX18U

It struck me, the thought of it, thinking of all the dead people there laid down, and all the families desperately trying to ring their phones, still on their bodies, and getting no answer, famlies, mums and dads, partners and spouses just hoping they will pick up :(

I just donated some money to the gofundme victim support.

https://www.gofundme.com/PulseVictimsFund

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 13, 2016, 08:01:21 PM
You can't exactly buy bombs at a corner store, genius.

Actually you can. 10 lbs of tannerite (http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/tannerite-12-lb-exploding-targets-20-pack) is $74.99 at Academy Sports. The last time I was in our local store they had at least a dozen of these sitting on the shelf.

Here's what 30 lbs of tannerite can do.

Quote from: PopeyesPappy on June 13, 2016, 10:38:31 PM
Actually you can. 10 lbs of tannerite (http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/tannerite-12-lb-exploding-targets-20-pack) is $74.99 at Academy Sports. The last time I was in our local store they had at least a dozen of these sitting on the shelf.

Here's what 30 lbs of tannerite can do.

That's... frightening. TIL

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-orlando-nightclub-shooter-visited-222620444.html

Weird you would post an article confirming that Islam had nothing to do with it. I applaud you pr... you genuinely impressed me.

Well, the MSM would say that, would it not?

If the perpetrator was a bible thumper, would you say it had nothing to do with Christianity?
I don' think so.

According to an NPR reporter who interviewed friends and neighbors, there were conflicting reports about the shooter's nature.  Some called him friendly and sometimes even helpful.  Others thought he was a strange loner.  Coworkers alerted the FBI for his racist and threatening Islamic beliefs.  His ex wife reported that he was moody, bigoted, homophobic, and that he frequently beat her.  With help, she was able to extricate herself from her marriage and left him.  The FBI investigated his coworker's concerns, but decided he was not a threat (so much for their screening process).

The reporter created an image of a possibly confused individual claiming to be the president of a non-existent Afghan organization where apparently he was the only member, while making wild claims which the FBI didn't feel they could take seriously.  While he did swear allegiance to the Islamic State, the Islamic State didn't seem to know who he was.  But since he called the police to announce his support for the Islamic State, they are taking credit for the murders.

From the facts so far, he strikes me as unbalanced.  Would he be less unbalanced without his religion?  I don't know, but in this case, his belief in Islam did not seem to be a benefit to society.

Perhaps this has been posted.  I skipped a bunch between page 2 or 3 and the last two pages.  Sorry, if I repeated someone else.

Quote from: Baruch on June 13, 2016, 07:23:14 PM
Correction:

You are Canadian etc correct?  You don't know what it is like to be an American.  And I don't mean that as an insult.  It is American to hate the government (for one reason or another) ... even if you work for it.

No global village for me, thanks.  I already have to put up with too many crazy Americans.  But maybe we can put that one world government in place ... like Hillary wants.  If we had a one world government, I would be voting for Amer-exit.

End correction.

In the abstract, I don't mind if people die, we are all supposed to die.  I see no point in trying to prevent people dying, not even my own family members ... because I don't have X-men powers.  I can try, but only fail.  Mortality wins every time.  I see no point in preventing WW III either ... that is way bigger than me.  If it comes, I will fight, but I won't think I will survive it.  Some may, just not me.  Now that doesn't mean I don't have sympathy and empathy.  But when you live in a abattoir, you are going to have to become clinical toward all the dead cattle or go hide in a corner and cry.  Besides, I eat steak myself.

Yes Canadian, but you think there is such a cultural difference that even if we would have all the guns like you in the US, we still would have a murder rate just 10% of yours? Or the other way around?
Oh yes, government. We dislike politicians as well but never had "a right to bear arms', maybe that's the difference. But I refuse to believe that (many) Americans are paranoid gun nuts waiting to fight their corrupt government which is run by a Kenyan Muslim. Over 300 million guns. If that would contribute to safety, the US should have the lowest gun murder rate in the world. So what went wrong?     Terrorist acts on the other hand are impossible to prevent. Not letting Muslims into the country would not have made a difference in the Orlando shooting or the Paris attacks in France. These are homegrown terrorists, how do you keep deadly weapons out of their hands?

Quote from: reasonist on June 14, 2016, 09:03:51 AM
These are homegrown terrorists, how do you keep deadly weapons out of their hands?

There is no sure fire way to do this, but a reasonable expectation would be to make it harder for terrorists to obtain weapons.  The FBI removed him from the watch list for whatever reason.  I'm sure they have some kind of system to separate the blow hard threatening comments from the real comments, but taking him off the list because they decided he was just a blowhard?  I'm not sure I agree with that, although I'm sure the NRA would disagree on that point.  Had they left him on the list, he would not have been able to legally buy guns a couple of days before he decides to shoot up the place.  Even the NRA supports a no sales rule to people who are mentally unbalanced.

By the way, the shooter's ex wife claims he was bipolar.  If that's the case, a longer wait to get his guns may have been long enough for him to come out of his manic state.  May have been?  Who knows?  There are going to be errors in any policy, but why not err on the side of caution when trying to save lives.  Maybe he would have done it anyway, or maybe not.  But realistically, the point here can not be to come up with a sure fire system to stamp out terrorism.  The best we can even hope for is only to save a few more lives here and there.  Is our current approach the best we can do?  I think most people would agree that it is probably not.

I doubt that the latest massacre alters the balance of the debate however.  It's just another bout of temporary concern that won't have much effect on regulation.

Reasonist:

I haven't known too many Canadians.  The English seem to be real decent folks.  The Quebec folks seem more unstable ;-)

But no, I don't think you realize how our different history makes us as different as say Portugal vs Spain.  Most of the early English settlers in Canada were ex-American Tories.  No love there.

Quote from: SGOS on June 14, 2016, 09:37:38 AM
There is no sure fire way to do this, but a reasonable expectation would be to make it harder for terrorists to obtain weapons.  The FBI removed him from the watch list for whatever reason.  I'm sure they have some kind of system to separate the blow hard threatening comments from the real comments, but taking him off the list because they decided he was just a blowhard?  I'm not sure I agree with that, although I'm sure the NRA would disagree on that point.  Had they left him on the list, he would not have been able to legally buy guns a couple of days before he decides to shoot up the place.  Even the NRA supports a no sales rule to people who are mentally unbalanced.

By the way, the shooter's ex wife claims he was bipolar.  If that's the case, a longer wait to get his guns may have been long enough for him to come out of his manic state.  May have been?  Who knows?  There are going to be errors in any policy, but why not err on the side of caution when trying to save lives.  Maybe he would have done it anyway, or maybe not.  But realistically, the point here can not be to come up with a sure fire system to stamp out terrorism.  The best we can even hope for is only to save a few more lives here and there.  Is our current approach the best we can do?  I think most people would agree that it is probably not.

I doubt that the latest massacre alters the balance of the debate however.  It's just another bout of temporary concern that won't have much effect on regulation.

People on the terrorist watch list are not criminals and therefore should and do have the right to bear arms. If someone is reported to the authorities and it is determined that they are unstable, then you can keep them from buying guns. Not before that. You need to know that the person is unstable/ mentally ill. There's this little thing called due process that you are forgetting about.

(http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aYLNd4N_460s.jpg)

But I'm sure the one thing that actually makes us different from any other country... the sea of guns... has nothing to do with it...

QuoteIf the perpetrator was a bible thumper, would you say it had nothing to do with Christianity?

Probably, considering I don't believe worse groups like Westborough or the KKK have anything to do with Christianity either, even though they both claim Biblical reasons for their hatred. I'm not dense, fearful or hateful enough to believe that groups are only evil because they are the "other" but rather accept that all groups have the potential for violence in their name (even groups like atheists and Buddhists) and realise that violence is a much deeper issue than just, "I follow an ideology so I am therefor more likely to be violent!".


If Islam or Christianity or whatever was the root cause of violence then the vast majority of both groups would not be as peaceful as they are.

Quote from: pr126 on June 14, 2016, 05:23:41 AM
Well, the MSM would say that, would it not?

If the perpetrator was a bible thumper, would you say it had nothing to do with Christianity?
I don' think so.

LOL!  You're a BAD person!   

Quote from: Shiranu on June 14, 2016, 03:52:38 PM
(http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aYLNd4N_460s.jpg)

But I'm sure the one thing that actually makes us different from any other country... the sea of guns... has nothing to do with it...

From what I can glean from research, the "173 mass shootings" figure is considering any incident of gun violence in which more than one person was injured. The most common "mass shooting" seems to be 0 dead 2 injured or 1 dead 2 injured. A lot of them were just the usual drug violence bullshit.

This is what I'm talking about when I talk about emotional arguments. A manipulative approach to the truth. Nobody thinks of 1 dead 2 injured when they think of mass shootings. They think of the gay club or Columbine in which dozens of people are killed.

QuoteFrom what I can glean from research, the "173 mass shootings" figure is considering any incident of gun violence in which more than one person was injured. The most common "mass shooting" seems to be 0 dead 2 injured or 1 dead 2 injured. A lot of them were just the usual drug violence bullshit.

Oh okay. That's not as bad then.

:roll:

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 14, 2016, 02:17:06 PM
People on the terrorist watch list are not criminals and therefore should and do have the right to bear arms. If someone is reported to the authorities and it is determined that they are unstable, then you can keep them from buying guns. Not before that. You need to know that the person is unstable/ mentally ill. There's this little thing called due process that you are forgetting about.

Due process is so 18th century!  We can put any rumored person, even a person who has the same name as another person, but who is entirely different, on the no-fly list.  And we can keep any of them from flying, and it is almost impossible to get off the no-fly list.  We need to expand that to a no-breath list.  And per the IRS, you are guilty until you prove (impossible) that you are innocent.

ITT:

>Guns aren't the issue[size=0px], [/size]and any statistics that show they are are just propaganda.
>Americans are special snowflakes who, unlike the entire rest of the developed world, would not have the same results because we are "special".
>People suspected of terrorism shouldn't be restricted on their ability to buy firearms.

We sure breed em' special in the land of the free alright...

Quote from: Shiranu on June 14, 2016, 06:38:29 PM
ITT:

>Guns aren't the issue[size=0px], [/size]and any statistics that show they are are just propaganda.
>Americans are special snowflakes who, unlike the entire rest of the developed world, would not have the same results because we are "special".
>People suspected of terrorism shouldn't be restricted on their ability to buy firearms.

We sure breed em' special in the land of the free alright...

It isn't about crime, it is about politics, and the injection of politics de jure into a thread about a tragedy.  How about if homophobes came here and spouted all their legal arguments as to why homosexuality should be outlawed to begin with, so that homophobes like this shooter aren't tempted to shoot them?  Just because we don't have posters like that, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Try any politics you like, in whatever country you live in.  Just don't expect anyone to agree with you ... that isn't how politics works.  You don't want me as dictator, and I don't want you as dictator either.

The shooters father is deep into the CIA ...

The company the shooter worked for, is an alias for a famously CIA connected front ...

http://www.madcowprod.com/2016/06/13/orlando-shooter-dad-longtime-cia-asset/

Oh, and weren't the bombers in Boston with CIA connections?  Their dad was a CIA asset in Chechnya.

There is a bottomless list of evidence about what the CIA has been up to for the last 70 years, most of it evil.

#IAmOmarMateen...

[spoiler](https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13428393_10208973622765244_7834621179215094602_n.jpg?oh=7342889df0a2afbea04624c506806e36&oe=57C6B918)

(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13445266_10208973622805245_5826820282729020532_n.jpg?oh=fc12be45c6d72dd27e633acb6916e7a2&oe=580694BB)

(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13394123_10208973623085252_5326897633742693846_n.jpg?oh=373a8a3a6736497f04f24a782bd9f8d7&oe=58061BDE)

(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13413787_10208973624205280_3566668395537724820_n.jpg?oh=8258aaf387a645e449b5b40f33e40bf8&oe=5808EEDB)

(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13434840_10208973625885322_8311687328250227204_n.jpg?oh=44c91c20d8c52ffb5fd420e00873402f&oe=57F9DCE0)

(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13418861_10208973625925323_7467565246194587442_n.jpg?oh=6c89c2d172fb230e7e922686dbc3acba&oe=58065E0F)[/spoiler]

Quote from: Shiranu on June 14, 2016, 06:38:29 PM
ITT:

>Guns aren't the issue[size=0px], [/size]and any statistics that show they are are just propaganda.
>Americans are special snowflakes who, unlike the entire rest of the developed world, would not have the same results because we are "special".
>People suspected of terrorism shouldn't be restricted on their ability to buy firearms.

We sure breed em' special in the land of the free alright...

Really cause this is what it looks like to me.

>Guns are the only issue. Nothing else matters, we just need to ban them then everything will be perfect. Anyone who suggests otherwise must love guns.
>America is exactly like all other countries. The diverse cultural and economic factors unique the the US are irrelevant. We just need to ban guns and then everything will be ok.
>If we make it so terrorists and criminals cant legally buy guns, then they will just give up on crime and terrorism and become upstanding citizens as violence disappears from the face of the Earth.

I wonder which breed is more special, whatever one you were talking about or the one that believes depriving people of the ability to buy a shaped hunk of plastic and metal will alter human nature and resolve all social and economic issues in one fell swoop?

Quote from: Baruch on June 14, 2016, 01:12:42 PM
Reasonist:

I haven't known too many Canadians.  The English seem to be real decent folks.  The Quebec folks seem more unstable ;-)

But no, I don't think you realize how our different history makes us as different as say Portugal vs Spain.  Most of the early English settlers in Canada were ex-American Tories.  No love there.

LOL, good and bad everywhere.

But even if we are different because of our history, and I am sure you are right, what justifies a gun murder rate 30 times that of the UK for example? Surely the convenient access to guns must be responsible also.
Can anyone tell what the gun owners are afraid of? As a responsible gun owner, I would welcome some type of qualification process in order to weed out the bad apples as good as possible. But maybe the 2nd amendment is seen only as a right, not as a privilege also. To operate a car, one needs a driver's license, to fly a plane one needs a pilot license, to own a gun, one should need a gun license. Historically different we are, but wouldn't that make sense?

Quote from: Shiranu on June 14, 2016, 05:35:09 PM
Oh okay. That's not as bad then.

:roll:

Another emotional argument. You avoid addressing my point and try to paint my position as something other than what it is because you have no response to my actual argument.

Quote from: reasonist on June 14, 2016, 09:19:16 PM
LOL, good and bad everywhere.

But even if we are different because of our history, and I am sure you are right, what justifies a gun murder rate 30 times that of the UK for example? Surely the convenient access to guns must be responsible also.
Can anyone tell what the gun owners are afraid of? As a responsible gun owner, I would welcome some type of qualification process in order to weed out the bad apples as good as possible. But maybe the 2nd amendment is seen only as a right, not as a privilege also. To operate a car, one needs a driver's license, to fly a plane one needs a pilot license, to own a gun, one should need a gun license. Historically different we are, but wouldn't that make sense?

Nobody mentioned driving a car or flying a plane in the Constitution. You'll never get it out of Americans' heads that the Founders meant for them to have tactical nukes under their beds. Never happen ... This is all so the people can defend themselves against the US Government w/their relative pea-shooters. The average moron who can't tie his own shoes w/o a refresher course every morning is going to be able to defend hearth and home from the New World Order w/his handgun and his semi-automatic. Meanwhile, if he actually had to shoot somebody, guess who would get shot? But that's OK. Dummy is on patrol. We can all rest easy. 

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 14, 2016, 09:12:53 PM
Really cause this is what it looks like to me.

>Guns are the only issue. Nothing else matters, we just need to ban them then everything will be perfect. Anyone who suggests otherwise must love guns.
>America is exactly like all other countries. The diverse cultural and economic factors unique the the US are irrelevant. We just need to ban guns and then everything will be ok.
>If we make it so terrorists and criminals cant legally buy guns, then they will just give up on crime and terrorism and become upstanding citizens as violence disappears from the face of the Earth.

I wonder which breed is more special, whatever one you were talking about or the one that believes depriving people of the ability to buy a shaped hunk of plastic and metal will alter human nature and resolve all social and economic issues in one fell swoop?

Why does it always have to be one extreme or the other? Either a free for all or a complete ban? Why not sensible registration after a background check? Only people who have something to hide would be against such a thing. While it would not be a panacea, it would certainly help.

My takeaway from all this is when the shooter's father says not to blame religion -- bullshit.  I absolutely blame religion.  Whether it's because he believed that homosexuality is an evil that needs to be wiped out, or he was unable to reconcile his own closetedness with his beliefs, only religion can create that kind of hate.

Quote from: reasonist on June 14, 2016, 09:30:20 PM
Why does it always have to be one extreme or the other? Either a free for all or a complete ban? Why not sensible registration after a background check? Only people who have something to hide would be against such a thing. While it would not be a panacea, it would certainly help.

Musket and lead balls w/a horn of powder? OK.
No need for handguns.
Hunting rifles - OK.
Automatic weapons? Nope.
Grenades & above? NO.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck2IwLfWkAAYJ3i.jpg)

Quote from: marom1963 on June 14, 2016, 10:03:41 PM
Musket and lead balls w/a horn of powder? OK.
No need for handguns.
Hunting rifles - OK.
Automatic weapons? Nope.
Grenades & above? NO.

I'm in. Sign me up.

Quote from: trdsf on June 14, 2016, 10:50:38 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck2IwLfWkAAYJ3i.jpg)

And again, all great stuff that ought to happen. But answer me this. How do we effectively get there? Or are you only suggesting it to make yourself feel better?

Because although Shiranu seems to absolutely love to point out that we as Americans are exactly like everyone else and therefore anything that works elsewhere much surely work just as well here, well lets just say I'm quite so optimistic on the subject.

To my knowledge, Australia ls the only county in recent memory to enact a large scale ban/buy-back program in order to get guns off the street. If there are others, I'd love to hear, but as far as I know, the ausi's are the only ones who've tried it.

And here is what no one seems willing to acknowledge or discuss as issues when it comes to that topic. Australia did not have anywhere near the number of guns on the street at the time that we do here in the US. The numbers are vastly different. They did not have the drug/gang/poverty issues in anywhere near the same numbers as we have here now. They did not illegally possessed guns in anywhere near the numbers we have here now. And though you don't often hear it talked about, they had a significant number of people who did not turn in their guns after the initial ban but instead kept them illegally.

These are all facts. All of these things happened. So considering that, how do we get John Q public (who most likely already hates the government BTW) to willingly turn over his AK-47 collection knowing full well that very few if any of the criminals will do the same and knowing full well that when Australia did the same, their crime and homicide rates went up initially?

Though Shiranu likes to discount this concept by yammering on about people are claiming that bans won't work because Americans are special, I'm here to tell you that we aren't the least bit special. But our circumstances are different as is our culture. And you think for a minute that those things don't matter... well lets just say I've got some ocean front real estate in Arizona that I'd love to sell you.

You want no more guns, or at least no more semi-autos and no more handguns? Great so do I. We're in absolute agreement. So now how do we get there? Because as far as I can see suckin each others dick about it on the internet ain't really gettin it done.

Quote from: Johan on June 15, 2016, 01:52:34 AM
And again, all great stuff that ought to happen. But answer me this. How do we effectively get there? Or are you only suggesting it to make yourself feel better?

Because although Shiranu seems to absolutely love to point out that we as Americans are exactly like everyone else and therefore anything that works elsewhere much surely work just as well here, well lets just say I'm quite so optimistic on the subject.

To my knowledge, Australia ls the only county in recent memory to enact a large scale ban/buy-back program in order to get guns off the street. If there are others, I'd love to hear, but as far as I know, the ausi's are the only ones who've tried it.

And here is what no one seems willing to acknowledge or discuss as issues when it comes to that topic. Australia did not have anywhere near the number of guns on the street at the time that we do here in the US. The numbers are vastly different. They did not have the drug/gang/poverty issues in anywhere near the same numbers as we have here now. They did not illegally possessed guns in anywhere near the numbers we have here now. And though you don't often hear it talked about, they had a significant number of people who did not turn in their guns after the initial ban but instead kept them illegally.

These are all facts. All of these things happened. So considering that, how do we get John Q public (who most likely already hates the government BTW) to willingly turn over his AK-47 collection knowing full well that very few if any of the criminals will do the same and knowing full well that when Australia did the same, their crime and homicide rates went up initially?

Though Shiranu likes to discount this concept by yammering on about people are claiming that bans won't work because Americans are special, I'm here to tell you that we aren't the least bit special. But our circumstances are different as is our culture. And you think for a minute that those things don't matter... well lets just say I've got some ocean front real estate in Arizona that I'd love to sell you.

You want no more guns, or at least no more semi-autos and no more handguns? Great so do I. We're in absolute agreement. So now how do we get there? Because as far as I can see suckin each others dick about it on the internet ain't really gettin it done.

What the US needs to do is make the mass manufacture, sale, and owning of small, concealable weapons illegal - handguns. That would be a start. Only the police and other government agents would be permitted to have and carry such weapons. Penalties for having such weapons would have to be harsh: automatic decades in prison. You want your right to bear arms - well, then, bear them proudly: you MUST carry a weapon that can be seen!  It must be visible. You are permitted to have a riffle. That's it. And it can't be an automatic riffle. And, no, you can't have a rocket launcher.

You can have a riffle. You can carry it w/you, if you like. However, you must have a license for it - and you can't get a license for it unless you are of military age (18), have a clean criminal record, owe no fines to the state, owe no child support, and are a CITIZEN of the United States of America.

Overall agreed, minus rifle. Only bolt-actions should be accepted, nothing with a magazine is necessary.

(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s526x395/13450936_585992828228654_7776672920947444593_n.jpg?oh=e3295586d713b90f050563125d3350b7&oe=57FCE9F6)

Quote from: Nonsensei on June 14, 2016, 09:19:36 PM
Another emotional argument. You avoid addressing my point and try to paint my position as something other than what it is because you have no response to my actual argument.

>49 people were killed because of senseless access... just fucking absolutely senseless access to weapons of mass destruction....
>"Guys, guys, guys... we cant let those silly emotions get in the way! There is no room for that!"

No, fuck that. It's not just 49 people... it's 49 people, with lives... fucking dreams, hopes, sorrows, regrets, plans for their lives, their future, shit just even what they would be doing tomorrow... who are dead. It's not some just random fucking number on the internet, some fucking click of the "4" and the "9". It is actual human lives that are being deemed less fucking important than being able to buy a piece of plastic and synthetics designed to kill humans. Fuck anyone who thinks emotions shouldn't play apart in that. Fuck them. That is the worst fucking argument in the history of man, that we shouldn't show emotion when 49 people are murdered in cold blood because you can be a fucking terrorist watch list motherfucker and buy a god damned assault rifle like it's candy. Nah. Fuck that, and fuck motherfuckers who think that emotions are something to be ashamed of and don't have place in decision making.

Quote from: Johan on June 15, 2016, 01:52:34 AM
You want no more guns, or at least no more semi-autos and no more handguns? Great so do I. We're in absolute agreement. So now how do we get there?

It's pretty straightforward what needs to be done:

• - Close the gun show loopholes
• - Reinstate the assault rifle ban
• - Require registration, insurance and licensing like we do to drive a car -- and for that matter, it's appalling that my barber has to prove to the state that they're safe to be allowed to wield a pair of scissors, and the guy across the hall from my apartment hasn't got to prove a damned thing to wield a .45
• - Lifetime ban for perpetrators of domestic violence, certain mental illnesses, certain misdemeanors, all felonies

What's lacked is the political will.  That means at a minimum going out and electing those who want to enact these sorts of basic and common-sense rules and regulations.

Quote from: marom1963 on June 15, 2016, 02:25:30 AM
What the US needs to do is make the mass manufacture, sale, and owning of small, concealable weapons illegal - handguns. That would be a start.

Well I agree that would indeed be a start. Getting universal health care that's free for everyone and eliminating the homeless issue would probably be easier and faster than getting a complete ban on the manufacture of handguns but yeah, its a start. But banning the manufacture would make it way more difficult for a black market to exist, assuming of course that we also confiscate and destroy every handgun we can find.

Quote
Only the police and other government agents would be permitted to have and carry such weapons.

Where will police get them once we make them illegal to manufacture? So yeah we'd probably have to do away with that part and keep it legal for companies to make them don't you think? Which kind of puts that whole black market thing back in play or at least a lot closer to being in play. Not saying that's a deal breaker but I wouldn't exactly make me warm and fuzzy.

QuotePenalties for having such weapons would have to be harsh: automatic decades in prison.

Yeah that would kind have to be a basic requirement in order for this to work. So we're going to need more prisons. Lots more. And all those prison guards are going to needs guns. Lots of guns. But yeah, the fear of automatic decades in prison would likely keep most people on the right side of the law.

But what about those who are on the wrong side of the law to begin with? When you have someone who is already in the mindset of being a criminal and you face that person with decades in prison just for having a gun in their possession, would that make them less likely to use said gun or more? I'm thinking a criminal with nothing left to lose is probably not going to worry too much about using the black market gun he just bought. Why worry? My life is over no matter what so fuck it. And again I'm not saying its a deal breaker but I do believe that all potential impacts of any legislation need to be considered. A law that makes criminals more likely to become violent is maybe not the best way to proceed if other alternatives exist.

QuoteYou can have a riffle. You can carry it w/you, if you like. However, you must have a license for it - and you can't get a license for it unless you are of military age (18), have a clean criminal record, owe no fines to the state, owe no child support, and are a CITIZEN of the United States of America.

Bolt action long guns and split action shot guns only should be good enough for all legit needs of the law abiding.

But I'm still left with one question. How do we get there. Because what you've laid out looks great. On paper. But in practical terms you might as well have said we just need to dig a hole to China because you've got about as much chance of that happening as you do any of the laws you've proposed here with the current political system we have. So how do we actually get there? Because wishing ain't working and so far, that's all we've got.

Shiranu, human nature is evolved to produce coping mechanisms of all kinds. That's how it survived. It works the very same for societies against big issues they face.

The gun issue(s) in the US have many aspects from historical to political, individual to cultural, economical to media, geography, religion the size of the country...etc. AND yes also an emotional side to each of these aspects. And people and societies cope with these in many different ways, but usually by compartmentalising, rationalising and prioritising.

What's people's priority? Themselves. Their families. Most people have kids and husbands or wives, they work 9 to 5 and try to raise their children and survive. Yes we can ciriticise most of their perspective and perception of the issue severely, but that doesn't change the fact that treating them a country full of psychopath gun lovers is exactly the same coping mechanism with the mass of people treating every perpetrator -be it a tarrorist or a mass murderer- as a pyschopath to distance themselves from the issue and not to face the countless dynamics behind this.

Yes, I agree with you that when innocent people get murdered for nothing, people should get very angry, very upset...and just get to move and loook ways to stop it immediately. Well, unfortunately this not how things work. you  know why, because this is the price of living in the modernised world. We are not living in a village, so we could gather around the able men solve the problem, assembly an emergency council and slide into an ideal socialistic system.

Yes, I am caricaturising it. Yes, there are many things to do, even little things that would have prevented a lot of bloodshed and horrific events in your country. I agree with you.


But I also want you to see something related to WHY you tend to see these events the way you do, besides what they really are. What is your priority in life? OK let's forget about you. Take me.

Who am I? What have I been doing all my life? I am a 40 year old woman who is completely the opposite of the culture she is living in and more, no kids, never married, never worked in a traditional job...someone who has/had the TIME and the LUXURY in her hand to rant about rationally and emotionally all human issues everywhere around the world. It's very easy for me to get out of my shoes and rant about gun issue there or some other fucked up issue here...Am I working hard? Yes. Am I broke and severely underpaid? Yes. None of these change the fact that I have the luxury of just being responsible for myself in the end. This is a very little minority in the world. This is priceless. According to the world standards, esp. the one I live in I am fucking 'spoilt' like hell.

What am I? I am the fucking LEISURE CLASS. Just like you are. The difference is I am aware of it because of age, you are just wallowing in 'oh I'm living in hell, people are evil, I am evil, fuck the world, fuck humanity!' and extend to this to anything you can get your hands on, inflate it. No,  I am not saying 'you are emotional'. Being emotional and vulnerable is a good thing. I am highly emotional and vulnerable. That's why I am like this.

You wanna do something about this issue? Do it. You don't want to do something about this issue? Don't do it. You want to get drunk/high an 'ponder' why things are the way they are? DO it. Do whatever you want. Just know that you are NOT going through something special neither about yourself, nor about the issue AND get that time is running out. Because at some point, you stop being a sensitive intellectual, but turn into a whinning spoilt little kid that can't grow up.

You know what? I don't agree with Johan almost on anything, I think he is a high level American idiot and I prefer his female part. But all these years we have been squabbling around these threads, he is probably the only poster who actually responded to your personal threads or the way you personalise certain issues with real terms in respect of your culture which is pretty much same with what I have been trying to say in completely different 'language'. But you do not listen.

Do you have to? Of course you don't. But please get that personalising these issues has become YOUR coping mechanism against life and things you do not want to deal with. It's stupid. Waste of time. Destructive. Painful. Not to mention meaningless and unproductive. I know what it is first hand.

Get annoyed. Get pissed off at me, you know where I am. Defend yourself. Do not turn into yourself and continue to wallow from the point given above.

Quote from: reasonist on June 14, 2016, 09:30:20 PM
Why does it always have to be one extreme or the other? Either a free for all or a complete ban? Why not sensible registration after a background check? Only people who have something to hide would be against such a thing. While it would not be a panacea, it would certainly help.

We had a ban on assault weapons, but the crazies got that overturned.  Now the genie is out of the bottle.  House to house assault by SWAT teams is the only way to get rid of them.  Criminals don't obey stupid laws, and most non-criminals don't obey either ... they are pre-criminals, until you push them hard.

GB is a police state like Israel.  The USA is close behind.  Is Canada like that?  But what if we don't want to live in a police state?  What if what happened in WW II and before dominates all my thoughts?  Sleep easy, there was only one Hitler, and it can never happen again.

Most laws are ineffective, they just make SJWs feel superior.  Having more ineffective laws regarding guns is not a help, it is a distraction.  If you actually want to get rid of guns in the US, even of some guns, you have to have a full on dictatorship, with a dictator who doesn't tolerate guns or particular guns.  The problem is "free people", and some people who don't appreciate the bad things "free people" do.  So either get rid of "free people" or tell the SJWs to go away.  There is no permanent solution to human violence, except extermination of the species.

We all know what needs to be done.  But it just isn't going to happen.  Why?  Because money is free speech.  Since the corps that make money from the sale of guns and ammo have a hell of a lot more free speech than all of us combined, then it just isn't going to happen.  These corps are free speaking to all of the rep and senators, and at all levels, so the people who draft the legislation to change any of this hear them loud and clear.  It is always the same.  Killings happen.  The powers that be tell us that we have to respect the mourners by not talking about it; we need to be proactive and pray for the victims and the families.  Then the legislatures around the country have their moments of silence.  The NRA (the front for the corp. that make a profit from all of this ) then rails that this is the time the govt. wants to take your arms--be on guard.  And the sales for guns and ammo goes up.  Then we do it all again.  We are simply a sick, fucking, stupid society in this area especially.   

Outside of the club, the killer was confronted by an armed, trained, gun wielding off duty policeman who, in an act of self-preservation, retreated.

I am unsure of florida laws so I will use my own local laws as an example.  It is likely the club had a sign posted "no guns allowed" which the patrons of the establishment seem to have obeyed.

The killer was employed at a security firm, and according to wiki,  supposedly passed whatever psychological testing given as a condition of employment.

Flags were issued and research by the top law enforcement of the USA concluded no basis.

A local news broadcast claims, since the assault weapons ban was lifted, somewhere between 5 and 10 million of these guns have been sold -- personally, I was surprised they could not give a more accurate number on the actual weapons sold but they continued--  14 mass shooting events since that time have involved assault weapons.

Point being the presence of a trained officer of the law did not stop this event.
Point being psychological testing did not stop this individual.
Point being at least 1 million assault weapons are out there and are seldom used in mass murder;  it would seem cars are used more often as an assault weapon.
Point being there is no 100% failsafe solution to who is/isnt a potential mass murderer.

Outrage at the actions taken by this particular kook is legitimate.  Part of me wishes he had survived to face the long process of inflicting the DP - without knowing for sure, I don't imagine florida death row is a pleasant experience, part of me is glad he is dead - families do not have to tolerate his living.

But to address the theme of "make it a law/Ban it"...

We've probably all worked for a boss/had a teacher who took that approach.  Somebody broke the rules so NONE OF YOU are going to get to leave early/go on the outing/etc.  That kind of retribution wasn't fair/just then and it isn't now.

5-10 million assault weapons owners are not responsible for the actions of this particular kook.  And as a side note, I do not own an assault weapon.  A ban on them would not affect my life one bit.  But I am not supportive of the calls to ban them now (or then).

Quote from: Baruch on June 15, 2016, 07:36:19 AM
GB is a police state like Israel.  The USA is close behind.  Is Canada like that?

This isn't Canada anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5GZCl7JYUk

Ahh Toronto... the guy is provoking the cops and the cops are just talking for 4 minutes. But Toronto, or York a suburb, is the Canadian Chicago.

"Reuters

Australia on Thursday marked the 20th anniversary of a mass shooting which led to strict gun controls that have in turn led to a huge decline in gun murders, undermining claims in the United States that such curbs are not the answer.

The chances of being murdered by a gun in Australia plunged to 0.15 per 100,000 people in 2014 from 0.54 per 100,000 people in 1996, a decline of 72 percent, a Reuters analysis of Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showed.

In 1996, Australia had 311 murders, of which 98 were with guns. In 2014, with the population up from about 18 million to 23 million, Australia had 238 murders, of which 35 were with guns.

It was the April 28, 1996, shooting deaths by a lone gunman of 35 people in and around a cafe at a historic former prison colony in Tasmania that prompted the government to buy back or confiscate a million firearms and make it harder to buy new ones.

The country has had no mass shootings since."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-guns-idUSKCN0XP0HG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

I want to be ready when the government sends tanks to get my guns.  Currently, I mastering my dive for cover, because everyone needs to do that when under tank fire.  If you want to get from point A to point B across a vulnerable opening, you need to break out on the count of three, and then when you are two to three yards from point B, you go into a dive that ends in a smooth roll.  They can't shoot you while you are doing a somersault in mid air that lands you safely behind a bail of straw.  Me and Bubba and the guys practice all the time.  Bubba is good at it and looks really cool.

Quote from: chill98 on June 15, 2016, 08:59:38 AM
I am unsure of florida laws so I will use my own local laws as an example.  It is likely the club had a sign posted "no guns allowed" which the patrons of the establishment seem to have obeyed.

Unless they've changed it recently it is illegal for customers to carry guns in bars in Florida even if they have a carry permit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVrfGga7BUc

good'ol dusty.

Quote from: PopeyesPappy on June 15, 2016, 10:22:05 AM
Unless they've changed it recently it is illegal for customers to carry guns in bars in Florida even if they have a carry permit.

Alcohol and guns usually don't mix well.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 15, 2016, 09:42:15 AM
This isn't Canada anymore.

Was that all about harassing a vagrant?  Was Canada filled with hoboes before?

Quote from: SGOS on June 15, 2016, 10:07:58 AM
I want to be ready when the government sends tanks to get my guns.  Currently, I mastering my dive for cover, because everyone needs to do that when under tank fire.  If you want to get from point A to point B across a vulnerable opening, you need to break out on the count of three, and then when you are two to three yards from point B, you go into a dive that ends in a smooth roll.  They can't shoot you while you are doing a somersault in mid air that lands you safely behind a bail of straw.  Me and Bubba and the guys practice all the time.  Bubba is good at it and looks really cool.

Nice Try.

Quote from: KatrinaAt the storm-damaged Superdome, faltering efforts to transport as many as 23,000 refugees to the Astrodome in Houston were temporarily halted after a gunshot was reportedly fired at a military helicopter. Authorities continued to struggle with incidents of looting, carjackings and other violence.

The deepening crisis prompted urgent pleas for help from local officials and residents, many of whom pointedly criticized the federal government for what they said was a meager and slow response.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090100533.html

I watched it on TV and was horrified by the lack of response from the government.  The looting, the cries for help, the pictures of the dead outside the superdome, where the less fortunate were told to go. 

I have a generator which I use to power my tv, computer and fridge during power outages.  Just like the folks in Algiers Point... continued below 

Quote from:  AftermathThe highest-profile case involving the police is the Danziger Bridge shooting in eastern New Orleans, where six days after Katrina, a group of police officers wielding assault rifles and automatic weapons fired on a group of unarmed civilians, wounding a family of four and killing two, including a teenager and a mentally disabled man. The man, Ronald Madison, 40, was shot in the back with a shotgun and then stomped and kicked as he lay dying, according to court papers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/us/27racial.html?_r=0

Maybe... just Maybe Bubba has a point.

Quote from: Johan on June 15, 2016, 07:21:15 AM
Well I agree that would indeed be a start. Getting universal health care that's free for everyone and eliminating the homeless issue would probably be easier and faster than getting a complete ban on the manufacture of handguns but yeah, its a start. But banning the manufacture would make it way more difficult for a black market to exist, assuming of course that we also confiscate and destroy every handgun we can find.Where will police get them once we make them illegal to manufacture? So yeah we'd probably have to do away with that part and keep it legal for companies to make them don't you think? Which kind of puts that whole black market thing back in play or at least a lot closer to being in play. Not saying that's a deal breaker but I wouldn't exactly make me warm and fuzzy.

Yeah that would kind have to be a basic requirement in order for this to work. So we're going to need more prisons. Lots more. And all those prison guards are going to needs guns. Lots of guns. But yeah, the fear of automatic decades in prison would likely keep most people on the right side of the law.

But what about those who are on the wrong side of the law to begin with? When you have someone who is already in the mindset of being a criminal and you face that person with decades in prison just for having a gun in their possession, would that make them less likely to use said gun or more? I'm thinking a criminal with nothing left to lose is probably not going to worry too much about using the black market gun he just bought. Why worry? My life is over no matter what so fuck it. And again I'm not saying its a deal breaker but I do believe that all potential impacts of any legislation need to be considered. A law that makes criminals more likely to become violent is maybe not the best way to proceed if other alternatives exist.


Bolt action long guns and split action shot guns only should be good enough for all legit needs of the law abiding.

But I'm still left with one question. How do we get there. Because what you've laid out looks great. On paper. But in practical terms you might as well have said we just need to dig a hole to China because you've got about as much chance of that happening as you do any of the laws you've proposed here with the current political system we have. So how do we actually get there? Because wishing ain't working and so far, that's all we've got.

Getting such legislation passed is a long way off. It might happen if enough school slaughters take place. But not now. It would take years of propagandizing the public.
I did say "mass manufacture," meaning that some handguns would continue to be made for police and military use.
Yes, there would be a black market - but that would exist, anyway. Legacy handguns, overseas handguns, illegally manufactured handguns.
As for the criminals - use of a handgun in the commission of a crime = automatic life term in prison w/o possibility of parole. Sweat them until they just don't want to have the damned things.
No, your right to bear arms is going to resemble arms that the Founders might have recognized. You're not getting a lazer.

Quote from: Shiranu on June 15, 2016, 05:27:24 AM
(https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s526x395/13450936_585992828228654_7776672920947444593_n.jpg?oh=e3295586d713b90f050563125d3350b7&oe=57FCE9F6)

I dunno if this has already been posted, but imgur (http://imgur.com/gallery/5KFTY) has an album of the victims with a photo and brief bio.

Has this been addressed?  Sorry if it's a repeat. 

NPR interviewed some professor in California who has been studying gun regulation.  He said his study showed that at least half of the states have enacted some sort of gun legislation in spite of the Federal Government's avoidance of the issue.  This is news to me.  All the focus has been on the Fed, but in fact, guns are being regulated to some degree, apparently, and it's hardly ever talked about.

Also on NPR, as a separate issue, machine guns, like the Tommy Gun and a couple of others, were highly regulated in the 1930s in a response to gangland violence during the Capone era, requiring gun history of sellers and buyers, fingerprints of owners, and owners had to be registered.  And in 1980, the law was amended to read, you just can't own them.  This too is news to me.

I believe I heard that right.  Is this correct?

Quote from: marom1963 on June 15, 2016, 05:00:36 PM
Getting such legislation passed is a long way off. It might happen if enough school slaughters take place. But not now. It would take years of propagandizing the public.
I did say "mass manufacture," meaning that some handguns would continue to be made for police and military use.
Yes, there would be a black market - but that would exist, anyway. Legacy handguns, overseas handguns, illegally manufactured handguns.
As for the criminals - use of a handgun in the commission of a crime = automatic life term in prison w/o possibility of parole. Sweat them until they just don't want to have the damned things.

Great. I'm in. A few questions though.

If we take a hard line and impost life in prison without parole for using a gun to commit a crime (and I think we should) how many more prisons do you think that will require? Twice as many as we have now? Three times as many? Four times?

Next question. Who pays for those prisons? Tax payers I'm assuming. How do you think that will affect support of all this legislation?

Next question. Where do we build all those prisons? How do you think it will affect support for this legislation when people realize they might have to allow a prison to be built next to their kids school?

Final question. Considering all that, do you want to revise your guess for a timeline on this from "a long way off"? I'm thinking "probably never" is more likely.

Quote from: Johan on June 15, 2016, 07:12:26 PM
Great. I'm in. A few questions though.

If we take a hard line and impost life in prison without parole for using a gun to commit a crime (and I think we should) how many more prisons do you think that will require? Twice as many as we have now? Three times as many? Four times?

Next question. Who pays for those prisons? Tax payers I'm assuming. How do you think that will affect support of all this legislation?

Next question. Where do we build all those prisons? How do you think it will affect support for this legislation when people realize they might have to allow a prison to be built next to their kids school?

Final question. Considering all that, do you want to revise your guess for a timeline on this from "a long way off"? I'm thinking "probably never" is more likely.

I'd legalize drugs and open the gates and let out all but the violent drug offenders - then, we'd not need new prisons.
It would be a very simple solution and would solve a lot of problem w/o having to - fire a shot. Big Pharma could take over the manufacture and legal sale of the fucking drugs. Anyone who wants the damned things can have them. I'm willing to bet that the market would expand for a brief time, then shrivel as the glamor wore off. We'd be left w/a small segment of hardcore addicts. Then we could treat them as patients, not criminals. End of problem. Has worked in the Netherlands. Can work here. Want it - take it. Nobody gives a damn. There's a nice, clean, safe corner over there where you can piss your life away.
Once it became clear that life meant life for handgun possession, I think that that would drop, too. Old age, in the nursing home wing of the prison - no getting out, ever. Body buried in the prison yard. Just get caught w/a handgun.

Quote from: reasonist on June 15, 2016, 10:03:05 AM

"Reuters

Australia on Thursday marked the 20th anniversary of a mass shooting which led to strict gun controls that have in turn led to a huge decline in gun murders, undermining claims in the United States that such curbs are not the answer.

The chances of being murdered by a gun in Australia plunged to 0.15 per 100,000 people in 2014 from 0.54 per 100,000 people in 1996, a decline of 72 percent, a Reuters analysis of Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showed.

In 1996, Australia had 311 murders, of which 98 were with guns. In 2014, with the population up from about 18 million to 23 million, Australia had 238 murders, of which 35 were with guns.

It was the April 28, 1996, shooting deaths by a lone gunman of 35 people in and around a cafe at a historic former prison colony in Tasmania that prompted the government to buy back or confiscate a million firearms and make it harder to buy new ones.

The country has had no mass shootings since."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-guns-idUSKCN0XP0HG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

We have had mass shootings since 1996, Lockhart was a mass shooting the gun grabbers like to pretend never happened.

There were 640,000 guns surrendered in the compensated confiscation which cost half a billion dollars, less than 3% of them were semi auto rifles have a look at the pics of the buyback black AR15's stand out against wooden stocked guns yet there are very few if any in all the pics you see.
Of course the gun grabbers like to claim over 1 million guns were handed in when the actual figure is just over 640,000.

After our 1996 gun laws we had around 800,000 firearm license holders with nearly 3 million registered guns, today we have 1.9 million firearm license holders with just over 5 million registered guns.
The buyback did nothing to reduce gun numbers which are at their highest ever levels, the Police minister did say greater than 97% of all gun crime is done by criminals without a license using unregistered guns.

In 1980 we had a firearm homicide rate of 0.8 per 100K which declined to 0.3 per 100K with 67 firearm homicides in 1995.
The semi auto rifles we banned were responsible for 27 of the 813 firearm homicides from 1980-1995, when they were banned in 1996 after a mass shooting by someone who never held a firearm license they had caused 62 out of the 916 firearm homicides in Australia from 1980-1996.
How much safer are we by banning a type of gun that caused just over 1% of all firearm deaths, we only had 5 mass shootings where the victim was unknown to the offender.
www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/productsbytitle/9C85BD1298C075EACA2568A900139342?OpenDocument

With 67 firearm homicides at a rate of 0.3 per 100K how bad was the gun problem in Australia when semi auto rifles with silencers were allowed for self defence?

Australia has doubled the number firearm license holders since 1996 while reducing gun crime to its lowest ever levels we have over 5 million registered guns for 24 million people.

I thought we weren't going to turn this into a gun control issue.
http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/06/liberal-redneck-trae-crowder-nothing-funny-orlando-massacre/ (http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/06/liberal-redneck-trae-crowder-nothing-funny-orlando-massacre/)

Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 15, 2016, 10:37:38 PM
I thought we weren't going to turn this into a gun control issue.
http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/06/liberal-redneck-trae-crowder-nothing-funny-orlando-massacre/ (http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/06/liberal-redneck-trae-crowder-nothing-funny-orlando-massacre/)

Everything is a gun control issue. We could be talking about fairies and still somehow have it devolve into a gun control debate.

(http://static.zerochan.net/Cirno.full.317586.jpg)

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 16, 2016, 02:49:02 AM
Everything is a gun control issue. We could be talking about fairies and still somehow have it devolve into a gun control debate.

(http://static.zerochan.net/Cirno.full.317586.jpg)

Yeah - and it can also degenerate into a pissed off meta-conversation, silly cartoons and all.

Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 15, 2016, 10:37:38 PM
I thought we weren't going to turn this into a gun control issue.
http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/06/liberal-redneck-trae-crowder-nothing-funny-orlando-massacre/ (http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/06/liberal-redneck-trae-crowder-nothing-funny-orlando-massacre/)

I heard Hillary Clinton giving a speech the other day: "This is not a time for politics," she said in her usual public speaking voice!  I thought to myself, "Yeah, right.  No politics in this speech."  You know, I can't remember if she even talked about gun control.  I really can't remember anything she said.  But anytime a politician speaks to a crowd about the latest public massacre, the unescapable result is that it's always going to be politics, whether guns are mentioned or not.  But Donald Trump made no bones about it.  To him it was quite clear.  A mass shooting calls for more people carrying guns. 

Quote from: SGOS on June 15, 2016, 06:42:45 PM
Also on NPR, as a separate issue, machine guns, like the Tommy Gun and a couple of others, were highly regulated in the 1930s in a response to gangland violence during the Capone era, requiring gun history of sellers and buyers, fingerprints of owners, and owners had to be registered.  And in 1980, the law was amended to read, you just can't own them.  This too is news to me.

The first part is right. The National Firearms Act (NFA) became law in 1934. It regulates machine guns, short barreled rifles and shotguns, suppressors, anything with a rifled barrel with a bore over 1/2" and some other stuff at the national level. Owning one requires a $200 tax stamp. Getting the stamp requires a signature from both local law enforcement and the FBI. In the more than 80 years since NFA was passed there has only been one person that I'm aware of convicted of murder for using their legally owned privately held machine gun. An Ohio police officer murdered an informant with his privately held MAC-11. No US civilian has been convicted of murdering someone with a legally owned machine gun since NFA. The regulations on machine guns work.

The last part is incorrect. At least on the federal level. Machine guns are still allowed in most states. What happened in 86 was they passed a law that said no new machine guns in civilian hands. Only stuff manufactured prior to the date the law was passed. There are still at least half a million legally owned registered machine guns in civilian hands in the US.

Depending on what state you live in you can buy a machine gun here. (http://www.autoweapons.com/products/products.html)If you want a new machine gun they are still legally available, but you have to get a Class III dealer or manufacturer license to get one.

Quote from: PopeyesPappy on June 16, 2016, 07:33:10 AM
Depending on what state you live in you can buy a machine gun here. (http://www.autoweapons.com/products/products.html)If you want a new machine gun they are still legally available, but you have to get a Class III dealer or manufacturer license to get one.

hmmm...

GERMAN W.W.I 08/18 8mm "LIGHT WEIGHT" (YES @ 32 LBS.) CAVALRY AND BICYCLE TROOP AIR COOLED MACHINE GUN C&R" RATED.... THE 08/18 IS THE LIGHTER WEIGHT MODEL OF THE 08/18 DESIGNED FOR THE MORE MOBIL UNITS OF HORSE CAVALRY AND BICYCLE TROOPS OF THE GERMAN ARMY IN 1918..... THERE IS LITTLE AVAILABLE INFO ON THE FIREARMS AS THEY ARE EXTREMELY RARE COMPARED TO THE MAXIM 08/15 WATER COOLED VERSION..

verrie interesting...

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 16, 2016, 02:49:02 AM
Everything is a gun control issue. We could be talking about fairies and still somehow have it devolve into a gun control debate.

What I find ironic is that, on an atheist forum, the fact that the killer is a religious fanatic is all but ignored.  In fact, it is excused because he's not the right kind of religious fanatic for SJWs. 

Quote from: SGOS on June 16, 2016, 06:45:13 AMBut Donald Trump made no bones about it.  To him it was quite clear.  A mass shooting calls for more people carrying guns. 

Whether it's Trump, Hillary, Obama, or George W, they all agree that Americans should have their second amendment rights restricted. They are all in favour of having American citizens banned from owning guns, stripped of their liberties without due process, without the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on June 16, 2016, 12:48:23 PM
Whether it's Trump, Hillary, Obama, or George W, they all agree that Americans should have their second amendment rights restricted. They are all in favour of having American citizens banned from owning guns, stripped of their liberties without due process, without the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

Presumption of innocence died in the 1930s, to fight the Mafia.  Al Capone was caught by the IRS, not the FBI.

Quote from: Jack89 on June 16, 2016, 11:18:08 AM
  What I find ironic is that, on an atheist forum, the fact that the killer is a religious fanatic is all but ignored.  In fact, it is excused because he's not the right kind of religious fanatic for SJWs. 

If not for the gun issue, you would certainly hear someone screaming about how he's a Muslim. Even pr126 is ignoring it because of how much the gun issue overshadows that fact for the people here.

Its just such a jarring thing, being british, or you might even say a European (for the moment), when looking at the american psyche that owning a gun is your human right to have one.
Its a man made device used to kill, thats what it is, it doesn't matter how fancy you make it, the thing is used to kill or badly injure other living things, it has no other purpose to exist, unlike a knife or baseball bat.

Why is it so much a part of one society to own a weapon that kills, even in defense, and why doesn't it get considered that by not having it, there would be less horror stories, less fear, less need for more. Its the vicious cycle of one person having it, so the next person wants it to feel safe, making the next person want the same.

Speaking as someone who lives in a society that has next to no gun crime, I don't fear walking around in busy streets like london or edinburgh from being shot, which I assume many americans have it on their minds every day.

QuoteIn the United Kingdom, access by the general public to firearms is tightly controlled by law, but it is less restrictive in Northern Ireland. The country has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world.[1] There were 0.05 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in the five years to 2011 (15 to 38 people per annum). Gun homicides accounted for 2.4% of all homicides in the year 2011.[2] There is some concern over the availability of illegal firearms.

Members of the public may own sporting rifles and shotguns, subject to licensing, but handguns were effectively banned after the Dunblane school massacre in 1996. Dunblane was the UK's first and only school shooting. There has been one spree killing since Dunblane, in June 2010.

Police in Great Britain (but not Northern Ireland) are not routinely armed.[6][7][8] Fatal shootings of police are extremely rare; there were three in England and Wales in the eleven-year period from 2000/01 to 2010/11.[9] Armed response units are available to deal with incidents, and around 7,000 police officers have received firearms training.[8][10]

We don't fear for our childrens lives when we send them to school here. We don't fear a gunman will walk into the store or office we work in and shoot at us or hold us up with a gun.

I just don't get this 'need' for guns in the american psyche. I can understand it would be a monumental task to recall all firearms and it would make americans feel like their rights were taken away from them, but thats just part of the vicious cycle. 

Quote from: Munch on June 16, 2016, 01:06:33 PM
Its just such a jarring thing, being british, or you might even say a European (for the moment), when looking at the american psyche that owning a gun is your human right to have one.

Due process is a human right. Take guns from everyone or don't take them from anyone. Right now, the dems are even trying to make it so someone has to have been off the terrorist watch list for five years to get a gun. So, after they are shown to not be a threat in an investigation, their liberties continue to be stripped away for an extra five years, even though you've been shown not to be a threat. What the hell is that? That's insane. These politicians give no fucks about human rights or human life. Obama with his fake tears for the children of Sandy Hook, while he dronestrikes brown skinned children on the regular. The Orlando night club shooter told you why he did this, but people ignore his reasons for doing it. He posted on facebook that he did this because the US is bombing Muslim children. Hillary and Trump are only going to be ramping up the foreign interventions. Anyone who votes for Trump or Hillary is giving their stamp of approval for more attacks like this in the United States. If people don't want that blood on their hands, they might want to vote for someone who is actually speaking out against these wars.

Quote from: Munch on June 16, 2016, 01:06:33 PMWhy is it so much a part of one society to own a weapon that kills, even in defense, and why doesn't it get considered that by not having it, there would be less horror stories, less fear, less need for more. Its the vicious cycle of one person having it, so the next person wants it to feel safe, making the next person want the same.

The 2nd Amendment was written in a time where America was much more vulnerable to foreign attack, and barely had a standing army to speak of. The first line is what gives it away: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Everyone seems to forget the "well-regulated" part, though.

Since the United States could expect to be calling upon its citizen-militia at any time, the keeping of arms became normalized. The War of 1812 pretty much sealed it, particularly at the Battle of New Orleans where the American militiamen slaughtered the British regulars due to using their own privately purchased rifles (as opposed to the inferior muskets still used by the Redcoats). Even after America outgrew the need for an armed populace, the keeping of firearms just wasn't questioned that much until relatively recently in our history. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," is pretty much the attitude taken by gun owners; whether or not that attitude is logical is a different question entirely.

Quote from: Munch on June 16, 2016, 01:06:33 PMI just don't get this 'need' for guns in the american psyche.

There's an interesting bit about that in Better Angels of Our Nature:

"In Europe, first the state disarmed the people and claimed a monopoly on violence, then the people took over the apparatus of the state. In America, the people took over the state before it had forced them to lay down their armsâ€"which, as the Second Amendment famously affirms, they reserve the right to keep and bear. In other words Americans, and especially Americans in the South and West, never fully signed on to a social contract that would vest the government with a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.  In much of American history, legitimate force was also wielded by posses, vigilantes, lynch mobs, company police, detective agencies, and Pinkertons, and even more often kept as a prerogative of the individual." - Steven Pinker

Quote from: Munch on June 16, 2016, 01:06:33 PM
Its just such a jarring thing, being british, or you might even say a European (for the moment), when looking at the american psyche that owning a gun is your human right to have one.
Its a man made device used to kill, thats what it is, it doesn't matter how fancy you make it, the thing is used to kill or badly injure other living things, it has no other purpose to exist, unlike a knife or baseball bat.

Why is it so much a part of one society to own a weapon that kills, even in defense, and why doesn't it get considered that by not having it, there would be less horror stories, less fear, less need for more. Its the vicious cycle of one person having it, so the next person wants it to feel safe, making the next person want the same.

Speaking as someone who lives in a society that has next to no gun crime, I don't fear walking around in busy streets like london or edinburgh from being shot, which I assume many americans have it on their minds every day.

We don't fear for our childrens lives when we send them to school here. We don't fear a gunman will walk into the store or office we work in and shoot at us or hold us up with a gun.

I just don't get this 'need' for guns in the american psyche. I can understand it would be a monumental task to recall all firearms and it would make americans feel like their rights were taken away from them, but thats just part of the vicious cycle.

My Dad was a life long hunter who owned far more guns than I ever have (at once).  There are a LOT of bunnies and quite a few white tailed deer that are no longer with us due to him.  I am a life long non hunter (four legged animals).  Go figure. 

Firearms are tools.........................they only do what you use them for.  Of all the guns I've owned; all were used to slay various inanimate targets......excepting one I used to foil a breaking and entering of my home.  Didn't even have to point it at them; all that was necessary was for them to hear the distinct "CLICK" when the safety went off, and me advising them I'd blow a hole in them big enough to throw a cat through.  They suddenly remembered they had overdue library books and left in a hurry!   If they hadn't; they would have left in body bags. Afterwards I called the police; so they could come up and cruise the area looking for the thieves; as they frequently just move off a few houses and try another. 

Professionally..................I've been involved in 6 deadly force incidents (involving firearms) at one time or another.  Due to a little skill, quite a bit of judgment and self restraint, and a fair bit of dumb luck.................5 were resolved without injury to anyone; the sixth was wrapped up with very minor injuries to the guilty NOT requiring medical attention.  They were some skeered lookin' fuckers though!   :agreenod:

I've never worried about my kids, or grandkids being in school.  They're far more likely to get run over because they weren't paying attention to traffic as they crossed a street, or by a distracted driver bleeping with his electronic marvelry instead of paying attention to his driving.  I don't worry about my daily business, and never have.  Perception and reality are often far apart, and mistaken for being the same.  To wit:

http://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/mortality-risk   Yea, they're 2013 stats....................but they do put "dying by gun" in a more realistic light.  My biggest fear?  A vending machine will fall on me and kill me some day!   :sob: 

Oh, yea!  All those guns we got?  You ever think maybe morebetterfasterfiringbigger guns had something to do with us NOT being British anymore (well...........that and the French).   :asmile:   Don't get too upset......................my Grqndparents were British Citizens.......  so I'm quite fond of all of you and my third cousins! 

Quote from: Munch on June 16, 2016, 01:06:33 PM
We don't fear for our childrens lives when we send them to school here. We don't fear a gunman will walk into the store or office we work in and shoot at us or hold us up with a gun. 

Schools may or may not be less safe here, but I don't know anyone that talks about fearing sending their children to school.  I think it's mostly politicians that hit that button.  As far as I'm concerned, the only ones to fear are postal workers (well, not so much anymore).  But in fact, "going postal" used to be a common expression for a mass shooting, because before the Muslims showed up, it was postal workers doing most of the mass shooting, but they pretty much limited their destruction to the Post Offices they worked at.  Back then, we were afraid to send our kids out to get the mail, but that was based on a real threat.  I think the postal workers may have gotten a raise or something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLqkizGtFo0

Quote from: Jack89 on June 16, 2016, 11:18:08 AM
  What I find ironic is that, on an atheist forum, the fact that the killer is a religious fanatic is all but ignored.  In fact, it is excused because he's not the right kind of religious fanatic for SJWs.

For me Jack, all members of an organized religion are 'fanatics'.  It is just a matter of degree.  The religious among us choose to believe and not think.  They believe a sky daddy guides their lives and the lives of all on the planet.  They believe in any number and all manner of nonsense.  The organized parts of their religion is capable of,  and has demonstrated that it is, violent and that any act can be attributed to a commandment of god.  Yes, the gunman this time was a member in good standing of the islamic faith and therefore a believer in a fiction.   I do not and have not excused any of the killings, much less this one.  All are senseless--but then the religious practice the senseless on a daily basis.

Quote from: Munch on June 16, 2016, 01:06:33 PM
Its just such a jarring thing, being british, or you might even say a European (for the moment), when looking at the american psyche that owning a gun is your human right to have one.
Its a man made device used to kill, thats what it is, it doesn't matter how fancy you make it, the thing is used to kill or badly injure other living things, it has no other purpose to exist, unlike a knife or baseball bat.

Why is it so much a part of one society to own a weapon that kills, even in defense, and why doesn't it get considered that by not having it, there would be less horror stories, less fear, less need for more. Its the vicious cycle of one person having it, so the next person wants it to feel safe, making the next person want the same.

Speaking as someone who lives in a society that has next to no gun crime, I don't fear walking around in busy streets like london or edinburgh from being shot, which I assume many americans have it on their minds every day.

We don't fear for our childrens lives when we send them to school here. We don't fear a gunman will walk into the store or office we work in and shoot at us or hold us up with a gun.

I just don't get this 'need' for guns in the american psyche. I can understand it would be a monumental task to recall all firearms and it would make americans feel like their rights were taken away from them, but thats just part of the vicious cycle. 

In most 'developed' countries the issue of individual rights vs. public safety has been settled in favor of public safety. The common good (safety) of it's citizens should override the right of individuals every time in a free and democratic society. If it's the other way around, anarchy follows. The reason is a small percentage of gun owners who are irresponsible. I don't know how many gun owners are in the US, the only approximate number we have is 300 million guns plus. Even if only 10% of Americans own guns, that's 30 million gun owners. Most likely more but just for argument's sake, let's take this number. If only 1% of these gun owners are nut cases or have a short fuse, are religious fanatics or gang members, and the other 99% would be responsible, that would be 300,000 people who should not own a gun. Unfortunately in any group situation, a few bad apples can mess it up for all the others. I'd like to go 120 on our highways but it just wouldn't be safe with so many idiots out there. So the speed limit is 80 even though you know you could go a lot faster and still be OK.
It's too late to confiscate all guns in the US, and it would not work anyways, but a central gun registration and background check should be mandatory. So what are responsible gun owners afraid of? They can keep their guns, just register them with the authorities and let the gov. do a background check on buyers.

I am glad that many of our non-US English speakers have been spared much violence.  Maybe better to celebrate that, and not to mourn the US.

On further registration ... it will have to be voluntary, unless you go house to house with the SWAT team.  And it would be good if people did volunteer in general, of course criminals will not.  What is missing is that the government has shown itself to be completely incompetent and malicious, and that all Americans are criminals (at least in the eyes of the British).

Quote from: Baruch on June 16, 2016, 06:16:22 PM
I am glad that many of our non-US English speakers have been spared much violence.  Maybe better to celebrate that, and not to mourn the US.

Oh I appreciate that I don't have to lock my house. I know the difference having lived in Arizona for a while having relatives there and so have a vested interest in a functional society. Besides that, we share a 5,500 mile border and many illegal guns are smuggled into Canada from the US. I don't mourn the US, but care enough to want improve a situation that is not conducive to the safety and well being on both sides of the border.

Quote from: Baruch on June 16, 2016, 06:16:22 PM
On further registration ... it will have to be voluntary, unless you go house to house with the SWAT team.  And it would be good if people did volunteer in general, of course criminals will not.  What is missing is that the government has shown itself to be completely incompetent and malicious, and that all Americans are criminals (at least in the eyes of the British).

Yes, it would have to be voluntary with incentives like in Australia. No guns have to be confiscated but registration is mandatory. If somebody keeps unregistered gun(s), it should be a federal offense. I still don't understand what the big deal of a gun registration is. Could it be that 'well regulated' means just that, regulation through registration?

Quote from: Munch on June 16, 2016, 01:06:33 PM
I just don't get this 'need' for guns in the american psyche.

Apart from historical aspect, most of it is about the paranoia and fear got hyped to support certain policies and politics. Oddly enough, in an isolated culture that lives under bombardment of one kind of propaganda for decades transformed religious, secular or atheists pertty much the same alike.

In it is most primitive expression, it's the individual and the mass expression of 'they are out ot get me' or 'they are out to get us'. This is the norm. If you constantly hype up so called 'civil rights' to boost a culture; teaching people a delusinoal understanding of freedom and brainwash them they are the only one who has that freedom because of those rights this is the picture you get.

People actually do believe in that the 2nd Ammendment is something carved in adementium with light hanging in the heavens that it cannot be touched. Like a right given by a god. From individual defense to military...it is all connected.

A culture that believes they should be able to shoot a stranger dead because he stepped in their property or looked suspicious, also believes that they can send out forces to invade and kill at the other side of the world as if their backyard.

So it is something like a cult in perfect sync. The belief that the individual and the society is in constant danger what's more that they can perevent this by individual counter attacks with guns. No words.

Even the bases of discussions of 'the bad guy' and 'the good guy' related to this gun issue in American terms is INSANE. Nobody stops and thinks for a second while every piece of dirt on the planet has these 'bad guys' -even more than they do in the US- why the mass shootings take place in the US in this level.

Aside from the gun issue, people are just happy defining these perpetrators -I don't mean self declared terrorists- as just 'monsters', distancing from the society. Nobody asks why do we have so many 'monsters' out of the usual terrorism traffic getting out to kill people?

I sometimes think Americans see their own population as a herd made of 'psychos', murderes and rapists and of course stupid people. I don't know what to say to that.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 17, 2016, 04:41:58 AM

Aside from the gun issue, people are just happy defining these perpetrators -I don't mean self declared terrorists- as just 'monsters', distancing from the society. Nobody asks why do we have so many 'monsters' out of the usual terrorism traffic getting out to kill people?

I don't think that you have more 'monsters' than other countries, the problem is "ease of accessibility". There are frustrated and angry people everywhere but guns make them deadly. It's doubtful that the Orlando shooter would have been able to kill 49 people with a baseball bat or a butter knife. But 45 rounds a minute will leave a carnage every time if so desired. That means owning a gun, especially 'assault' rifles is a responsibility not just a right. And with responsibility come certain rules. Like a drivers-, hunting-, fishing license and the like. CNN has an interesting article about gun purchasing in the US. It is more difficult to buy a puppy or cough syrup than guns. Therein lies the problem.

Quote from: reasonist on June 17, 2016, 10:30:19 AM
I don't think that you have more 'monsters' than other countries, the problem is "ease of accessibility". There are frustrated and angry people everywhere but guns make them deadly. It's doubtful that the Orlando shooter would have been able to kill 49 people with a baseball bat or a butter knife. But 45 rounds a minute will leave a carnage every time if so desired. That means owning a gun, especially 'assault' rifles is a responsibility not just a right. And with responsibility come certain rules. Like a drivers-, hunting-, fishing license and the like. CNN has an interesting article about gun purchasing in the US. It is more difficult to buy a puppy or cough syrup than guns. Therein lies the problem.

Agreed. I'm aware of the 'gun purchase' issue in the US. It's in the open. Everyone can see it.

(And I personally apologise from you that the post I wrote up there was highly mainstream Americanised and dumbed down, because I am sick of reactions and honestly, didn't think that somebody would give a straight response of the sort; very few people see my posts. Hence the remark "we have more monsters". It's not my intention to insult, just an explanation of the situation which is really really bad.)

"I sometimes think Americans see their own population as a herd made of 'psychos', murderes and rapists and of course stupid people. I don't know what to say to that."

Yes, we are.  Our civilization is unnatural, superficial.  And there is nothing you need to say about that.  Don't like crazy people, then stay out of the asylum.

I think other nation's people are too, but I don't want to be accused of bigotry.

Quote from: Baruch on June 17, 2016, 11:11:05 PM
"I sometimes think Americans see their own population as a herd made of 'psychos', murderes and rapists and of course stupid people. I don't know what to say to that."

Yes, we are. Our civilization is unnatural, superficial.  And there is nothing you need to say about that.  Don't like crazy people, then stay out of the asylum.

I think other nation's people are too, but I don't want to be accused of bigotry.

Invalid statement. Define natural civilisation. Superficial is altogether another thing...the big C Leaves nothing alive. It devours everything.

In addition to the FBI dismissing warnings from co-workers about Omar Mateen , it appears they may have been alerted to suspicious behavior by Disney employees.  This report comes from FOX so it may or may not be accurate.  In addition, there is just a paragraph and some tweets to read as if the report had been hacked to bits by a drunken editor.  These types of truncated stories are typical of Yahoo.  Perhaps there is more information from a better and more reliable source someplace else.

http://nation.foxnews.com/2016/06/14/disney-warned-fbi-about-omar-mateen-back-april?intcmp=ob_article_footer_text

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 18, 2016, 03:16:32 AM

Invalid statement. Define natural civilisation. Superficial is altogether another thing...the big C Leaves nothing alive. It devours everything.

Natural = small city state ... everyone is same race ... everyone is from the same tribe ... everyone has the same religion ... everyone has the same culture.
Unnatural = giant empire ... everyone is different race ... everyone is different tribe ... everyone is different religion ... everyone has different culture

In that way, the EU is more unnatural than the US.  Turks should be very aware of this, given their history since 1900.  You live on the W coast of Anatolia, so you should be very aware of how city parasitism and colonialism work, since the Western version of that was first tried 2700 years ago right where you live.  Greek urban exploiting Greek country ... and Greek colonists exploiting Anatolian natives.  No different than the Spanish invasion of the New World, just on a smaller scale.  I have a coin from Ephesus that says ... nothing changes.

Have you ever read the Cross of Gold speech of William Jennings Bryan?  1890 Democratic national convention.  One of the most Leftist speeches ever made in the US.  Fallen columns, and grass growing between the cobbles in the agora.  It has happened many times in many places, when the ponzi fails.

Article by Arab Humanists (atheists) on Orlando

www.arabhumanists.org/arab-reaction-orlando-depressing

Unfortunately Muslim communities make excuses for the bad behavior of their members.  Just like other communities.  What makes a difference is I am in this community, not theirs.  So I expect their hate, I expect their competition.  It is what humans do.  I compete with them, I hate them back.  Sometimes competition is in the market, but sometimes it is in violence.  That is the way things have always been.  Idealists simply prefer to keep their heads up their behinds.  I prefer to keep this non-violent though.  Compete in soccer, not in arms.  Then the competition and hate, is kept at the sports fan level.

So no, I have never been surprised and the mendacity of my fellow humans.  I recognize and accept what I am dealing with.  But I do like to tease the bigots.

Seems the claim of psychological testing by the employer has gotten a bit more fuzzy.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/psychologist-i-never-evaluated-orlando-shooter-mateen-n594976
QUOTE from article:

"Dr. Nudelman did not score Mateen's evaluation," the G4S statement said. "She sold her practice in 2007. Mateen's MMPI was scored by HQPE (Headquarters for Psychological Evaluation). A clerical error failed to note the change in vendors scoring the exam."

Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2016, 10:32:12 AM
Natural = small city state ... everyone is same race ... everyone is from the same tribe ... everyone has the same religion ... everyone has the same culture.

This is NOT natural. Humans have never lived like this. You are describing ANTS. A perfect civilisation for an organism that lacks self consciousness, desire, fear, individuality. Perfect anarcho-communism. Doesn't work for us. Doesn't even work for cats.

What you are describing up there is called "imagined societies" by western cultural historians. They never existed and can never exist even humans were one race and have one religion. There has never been soiceties with one race and religion, one culture. This is an illusion built by the standardisation of French Revolution and actually as an idea built through in early modern Eruope during 'language wars' by soveriegns to impose their own culture among masses.

It doesn't exist. It's made possible as an idea by the aristocracy and the literate class and the scholars, it is produced on paper. But it doesn't matter that it is not real, because like individuals, societies has an enormous ability for cognitive dissonance and filling the blanks about their own society and culture.

Diversity itself has never been the problem for the people. Diversity is a problem for the MODERN STATE in every level.

- If you create nationalist society with one religion, you guarantee the ways of manipulation of every aspect of that society. You can scare that society with itself, with the other, with itself and threaten it with countless ways, teach it tricks; make it run with hare and hunt with hounds. You don't even have to intervene directly. The identity of an individual in national country itself is enough. A fake made sense of belonging and 'us'.

What's more, when you create a nationalist-religious society, you also create a power that will check itself and work over people independently by itself. This is why fascism in it all aspects doesn't die and it DOESN'T NEED A STATE TO WORK. Individual takes over that job in various mediums.

- Now think about another society that the individuals are taught that their identity is defined by their contribution and function alone, but not with where and with what skin colour or sexual orientation they were born or what they believe. A functional diverse society.

You cannot threaten this society with itself. You cannot use the members of that society against each other, because the other wouldn't exist as triggering power in cultural dynamics and social life.

How are you going to manipulate this herd? You can't, because it is NOT a herd. Members of a herd is needed to prisoned in the same identity, if possible needed to be transformed into organisms got out of a copy machine ideally: from their phsyical traits to what they wear and eat and dream and fear. In the capitalist system with a greed to match.

But real individual is another story alltogether. You don't get to slap and manipulate him around. He'll give you the finger if you try to draft him or impose your high class serving rules.

The understanding of UNITY is so different in a diverse, functional society if it is managed NO modern state would stay alive or manage. That society is not maintained by teaching people they can get what ever they want, but that they can't and they shouldn't. Because it is ideal socialism.

Who would want that highly evolved society? Nobody. From the indivudal that 'wants everything and wants it now' to the modern state and world industries all over. NOBODY can 'afford' that society with the current system.

There are many thing sto say, but trying to keep it impressionistic and short. So 'natural civilisation' is the complete opposite of what you are describing for us humans.

QuoteUnnatural = giant empire ... everyone is different race ... everyone is different tribe ... everyone is different religion ... everyone has different culture

These are not conected, but a result of means of economy and politics invented related to control the demography and usage of resource. Fictional reality.

QuoteIn that way, the EU is more unnatural than the US.

Again. Invalid. Yes, Europe doesn't exist out of political and economical concepts and a culture built on it, but also money is a piece of paper and we created up a lot of 'fictional reality' out of our asses to build a civilisation and survive as social primates. Economy is one of them. Art, culture...success. Most importantly RELIGION, because we needed to survive as societies. In this sense religion is the most important invention of human kind.

(It's actually a bit like the Picasso discussion technically. "It's a half ass geometric expression of a female face." No, it is not.)

QuoteTurks should be very aware of this, given their history since 1900.

Turks are shamanic nomads Ä°slamised by Arabs. While they built several states and empires etc...they do NOT have a settled down or a written culture but what was inhereted from Persia and Greece and Arabs and later modern western and feall back to islamism. Today, still there are moving tribes of close to 90 000 in Anatolia in 21 st century. Imagine that in the US.

The minorities and cultural difference in Ottoman Empire and minorities and cultural differences in a westernised republic is completely different issues.

-Republic is founded on the principles Frech Revolution and the modern state and the modern law.

-Ottoman Empire is a monarchic system WITHOUT any aristocracy that tried to direct states before even any understanding of nationalism. Ottomans do not accept themselves as "Turks". Turk is a heavy built lowest class worker. Turks did not have a nationality before the independence war against Europe and Ottomans.

QuoteYou live on the W coast of Anatolia, so you should be very aware of how city parasitism and colonialism work, since the Western version of that was first tried 2700 years ago right where you live.  Greek urban exploiting Greek country ... and Greek colonists exploiting Anatolian natives.  No different than the Spanish invasion of the New World, just on a smaller scale.  I have a coin from Ephesus that says ... nothing changes.

Inavlid comparison. Systematic nationalised colonialism in modern period cannot be compared with mass movements and slavery system of the ancient world. Many different worlds apart.

Modernism -which has many meaning- first and foremost runs on the division of many organs in an organism and professional sense work AND infrastructure. Standardisation and assimilation.

Ancient world; slaves. You are talking about a period when geography plays the main role in architecture; founding a city, carrying water, feeding people. No industry available.

QuoteHave you ever read the Cross of Gold speech of William Jennings Bryan?  1890 Democratic national convention.  One of the most Leftist speeches ever made in the US.  Fallen columns, and grass growing between the cobbles in the agora.  It has happened many times in many places, when the ponzi fails.

No, I haven't. I don't understand why it is relevant as 'left' considering 'fallen columns and the cobbles of agora', Greek democracy is built on slaves and 'ideals' re-written countless times. The real life that has passed in Ancient Greece and Rome, the reflection of the administration told today is an infalted series of myth expressed in modern language. It has nothing to do with reality or people.

Those philosphers that has been told as if they are secular, logical thinkers in books are prophets and cult leaders of their time. Pythagoras is not a mathematician or a thinker as we call him today, he is prophet to his followers. We came to the same point with the 'weird being wierd' thread. Michelangelo is not an artist, Thomas Moore is not a humanist, Rebalais is not an atheist, Richeliue is not a statesman, Leonardo is not engineer nor a scientist. Renaissance is not the birth of modernism. Greek democracy is not a democratic system. There are no domestic policies or nations before French Revolution.

We constantly re-evaluated and re-wrote all these concepts, defined them over and over again and accumulated, built a history.


I have read Robinson Crusoe and also God of the Flies and they stomp most books on human species and human civilisation in entire written history of our civilisation. :lol:

Years ago, I had an interesting experience. I met a young man from Russia. He told me what they told him about America. And he giggled about what I told him about what we had been told about Russia. I realized then that propaganda was alive and well on both sides.
I KNOW that most Muslims are not blood-thirsty suicide bombers out to do the US in. I know this simply because I know that most of the World's Muslims want the same from life as everybody wants - peace and quiet and a nice home w/enough to eat and nobody bothering them.
They're human beings - plain and simple.
We have plenty of our own maniacs who want to lob bombs at innocent people - plenty of them in the Pentagon!
The thing has become worse than disgusting - it's downright tiresome!

Drunkenshoe ... I assume you have read all of Dr Diamond's books?

The thing we dare not face in the mirror when we shave in the morning ... is that human beings are omnivorous predators.  Societies that acknowledge that are natural.  Rousseau believed that "returning to nature" would make us all noble savages.  But he was wrong, as was Marx thinking we were evolving into a high tech version of noble savages (he idolized primitives also).  Both men hated civilization, while enjoying the benefits.

So the ancient Greeks were right in colonizing Anatolia, and enslaving all they could.  The Enlightenment is all a lie, not just Rousseau.  The only mistake the Greeks made, is in not making enough Greeks to overcome demographic disadvantage.  Had they done so, Alexander would have been more successful ... Judaism would not have survived, we would all be pagans ... Christianity and Islam would have never happened.  People would be speaking Greek derived languages rather than the Latin derived kind ... from Ireland to Pakistan.  But then Alexander was a megalomaniac who died young.  How are the ambitions of Alp Arslan any different?

Quote from: Baruch on June 19, 2016, 09:21:15 AM
Drunkenshoe ... I assume you have read all of Dr Diamond's books?

The thing we dare not face in the mirror when we shave in the morning ... is that human beings are omnivorous predators.  Societies that acknowledge that are natural.  Rousseau believed that "returning to nature" would make us all noble savages.  But he was wrong, as was Marx thinking we were evolving into a high tech version of noble savages (he idolized primitives also).  Both men hated civilization, while enjoying the benefits.

So the ancient Greeks were right in colonizing Anatolia, and enslaving all they could.  The Enlightenment is all a lie, not just Rousseau.  The only mistake the Greeks made, is in not making enough Greeks to overcome demographic disadvantage.  Had they done so, Alexander would have been more successful ... Judaism would not have survived, we would all be pagans ... Christianity and Islam would have never happened.  People would be speaking Greek derived languages rather than the Latin derived kind ... from Ireland to Pakistan.  But then Alexander was a megalomaniac who died young.  How are the ambitions of Alp Arslan any different?

Of course Alparslan is not different. All of them are the same.

What I am trying to say that this is a matter getting evolved. And humans need to make this themselves and learn to minatain it. There are no natural civilisations. The fact that we are violent primates doesn't change anything. Look how far we have come.

Sitting in front of the computer and cynically throwing criticism about how everything is the same is easy -I am saying this to myself too, to all of us- but we have traveled a long way.

Most people here think that the life in America is what they see in movies with its best and worst. And a big westernised group think the life in the ME is what like British-American media tells.

The propaganda doesn't just exist. The gap between reality and what is sold out there to every peoples of the world is the biggest bullshit ground to build every other hing on it.


I personally found the States much better than I expected, but my experience is limited.

There is no progress, except in the quality of the propaganda.  What is true, given the propaganda of culture and language and history ... is impossible to tell.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on June 19, 2016, 12:17:53 PM
Most people here think that the life in America is what they see in movies with its best and worst. And a big westernised group think the life in the ME is what like British-American media tells.

The propaganda doesn't just exist. The gap between reality and what is sold out there to every peoples of the world is the biggest bullshit ground to build every other hing on it.


I personally found the States much better than I expected, but my experience is limited.

Then you must not have visited Alabama. :))  I have a pet hypothesis about people.  I think they are all the same in that they all simply want to be left alone to make their way through life with family and local community; left alone in the sense that we can enjoy life and family, work at what we want to work at and not be in constant combat.  Yes, I do realize that this is a bit to idealized and that there are a few who are out for only themselves.  But, by and large, most people are live and let live types.  I have not traveled to many different places to test this out, but the few I've been to this seems to hold true. 

There is no peace, because people want to follow alpha-males for fun and profit.  Alpha-females are far and few between.  Thatcher and Hillary.

Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2016, 02:32:06 PM
Then you must not have visited Alabama. :))  I have a pet hypothesis about people.  I think they are all the same in that they all simply want to be left alone to make their way through life with family and local community; left alone in the sense that we can enjoy life and family, work at what we want to work at and not be in constant combat.  Yes, I do realize that this is a bit to idealized and that there are a few who are out for only themselves.  But, by and large, most people are live and let live types.  I have not traveled to many different places to test this out, but the few I've been to this seems to hold true. 

Totally agree. It only gets messy when some want their ideology or lifestyle imposed on others. My favorite word is RESPECT. Respect for yourself, nature, and other people's privacy, dignity, safety and property. If we all could adhere to this simple rule, the world would be a much better place.