Non-optional RFID Chip

[FaithIsFilth]

If some agency of the gob'ment wanted to know my whereabouts 24/7, they could very easily do that right now. So again, what right would I be giving up?

Of course they can do it. That's exactly what I said in my post. You are arguing just to argue when we agree here. They don't have the resources to see where 320 million people are at every second. They have all the computer metadata, but people aren't being tracked at all times when they aren't online.

[Johan]

Of course they can do it. That's exactly what I said in my post. You are arguing just to argue when we agree here. They don't have the resources to see where 320 million people are at every second. They have all the computer metadata, but people aren't being tracked at all times when they aren't online.

You obviously care about the 320 million people every second thing and I don't discount that. But the fact remains that you clearly care about it and I clearly don't. So sell it to me. Why should I care? I'm being genuine, go into detail if you want.

[Johan]

I would not mind the chip if the guv'ment was of random picks so that we could avoid the control of corps and billionaires.

Say, on June 1 of the election year, anyone who wanted to have a particular office showed up at a county place "x" where they dropped their name on a piece of paper into a big ole basket, and no name could go in without it being verified and with everyone watching.  Then the big ole basket spun around and a random two-year old picked a name and then that name went to the state along with the other county names and again in front of everyone the names were verified and dropped in a basket and a random 2 year old picked a name and Voila we have a rep who is making more than they ever did before and they have the opportunity to  a total of 8 years in the seat unless there is a 33% call for a revote in which the shit starts all over again.

The idea is that ole joe the barber or sam the bus driver would make a better rep than millionaires and they would actually care about the job because they only normally make 50 grand a year as opposed to 174,000 a year so they want to do a good job to get the entire 8 years of good money.


You have a guv'ment where the power cannot shift as it does not exist  and maintaining a paid for government becomes a little more difficult.

At least, that how I envision it.

I like it. But it would never work. Almost no one would be able to put their livelihood on hold for up to 8 years while they serve the greater good. So almost no one would throw their hat in the ring except those with nothing else to lose. The rent is too damn high guy comes to mind. And while it makes for a nice fantasy to think government would run smoother and be more effective with those sorts of folks in office, my better judgement says otherwise.

[FaithIsFilth]

You obviously care about the 320 million people every second thing and I don't discount that. But the fact remains that you clearly care about it and I clearly don't. So sell it to me. Why should I care? I'm being genuine, go into detail if you want.

There is no selling it if you don't care about privacy.

[Johan]

What privacy? Where I choose to go... wait for it... in public?

[Baruch]

What privacy? Where I choose to go... wait for it... in public?

Europeans etc don't care what is in the Declaration of Independence or Constitution.  Many Americans are more European than American.  They are happy with the scraps King George will provide.

[PopeyesPappy]

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[FaithIsFilth]

What privacy? Where I choose to go... wait for it... in public?

Ok, but at the moment, do Police not need to have some type of suspicion or some type of reason to follow someone around? They don't follow people around just for the hell of it. I know there are already cameras all around, and drones up in the skies, but tracking everyone 24/7 is going a bit too far in my opinion. Like Aitm said, if you knew that you had a government that was not likely to abuse this, then it might make sense for the people to be supportive of this. There are a lot of positives that come with this. If this was in place already though, would it not be used to target and lock up more blacks for drug crimes? Would it not be used by bigoted States to get transgender people in trouble for using the wrong washroom? If this was implemented somewhere like China or North Korea, would this not be massively abused by their government?

[Baruch]

The US is N Korea ... we are too patriotic to notice.  The Germans thought they were doing the right thing in WW II ... and we are no better than they are.

As long as the infinitely powered government is going after the monsters under your bed, you are all for this.  Until your neighbor decides that you are the monster under his bed.  Do I trust my neighbor?  Hell no.  Do I trust my government?  Hell no.  But that doesn't mean I live in fear of my neighbor or my government.  We live in a jungle, and we are both predator and prey.

[Atheon]

Bad idea.

[Johan]

Ok, but at the moment, do Police not need to have some type of suspicion or some type of reason to follow someone around? They don't follow people around just for the hell of it.

Probable cause is all that's required and it is incredibly easy to achieve.

I know there are already cameras all around, and drones up in the skies, but tracking everyone 24/7 is going a bit too far in my opinion.

Ok first off, putting an RFID chip in everyone's arm does not automatically equate to tracking everyone 24/7. I know you believe that's what will happen, but please remember that doing the first thing in no way guarantees the second.

You might be a little young for this, but I remember seeing miles of network cable being installed along a major toll road in NJ many years ago. It was a multi-year project and it paved the way for one of the first ez-pass toll collection systems to go operational. I can just about guarantee that if you were of age back then, you would have been one of the many who were yelling that you would never put an ez-pass in your car because gob'ment was going to use the time stamps from your tolls to prove that you were speeding and issue you tickets by mail. People SWORE on the graves of their dead relatives that is what the gob'ment had in mind by implementing the system.

And do you know how many speeding tickets have been issued based on EZ-Pass RFID data to date? G'head guess.... What's that? What's your guess? Zero you say? DING! DING! DING! DING! Winner winner chicken dinner. None nada zip on the moving violations.

Now that's not to say that EZ-Pass data has not been used in prosecuting criminal cases. On the contrary it most definitely has been used to help show whereabouts in murder cases and the like. Of course, its been used just as often to prove innocence as it has to prove guilt. You say that at 10:22 PM my client was bludgeoning the victim at her home in Ronkonkoma, but ladies and gentlemen of the jury, let the record show that my client's EZ-Pass data indicates he was passing through the toll plaza in Seaside Heights NJ at 9:47 PM that night...

So yeah, that. If we're going to go down the road of the big scary government wanting to know our every move 24/7, then we also have to go down the road of I no longer have to be so concerned that someone fitting my general description (out of shape late 40's balding white guy) is at this very moment 40 miles away from me committing some horrific crime that I will then become suspect of. And to that I say sign me the fuck up.

Like Aitm said, if you knew that you had a government that was not likely to abuse this, then it might make sense for the people to be supportive of this. There are a lot of positives that come with this.

Agreed and I think I just outlined some of those positives above.

If this was in place already though, would it not be used to target and lock up more blacks for drug crimes?

Dunno. But your sole arguement here seems to be we can't allow this to happen because we can't trust the criminals in power. Well here's a couple of facts for you that I know you won't believe and I can't make you believe but history is history and facts are facts. There are not nearly as many criminals in power as you believe. And those that are in power suffer the consequenses of their actions as often as not.

Disagree all you like but that is what history has taught me. Therefore in my eyes, the negative that this would give those in power new abilities to abuse does not outweigh the positives that go along with it.

Obviously you feel differently and that's fine. But the tin-foil hat brigade was dead wrong on the ez-pass thing (and lots of other things) and I think they're dead wrong on this too.

[PopeyesPappy]

Johan, one reason there aren't as many criminal in power as we would like to believe is they have have made it legal for them to do things it would be illegal for us to do. Want an example? Insider trading. Curious if it benefits them? On average the stock portfolios of US senators out perform those of hedge fund managers much less the rest of us poor smucks.

[Johan]

I don't disagree. But I stick by my original opinion on the topic. I really think it comes down to this. You either believe they're all out to get you or you do not. And I do not. Because my logic tells me that if they really were all out to get me, I would have been rotting in a cell long ago. And so would most of us.

[Baruch]

"Probable cause is all that's required and it is incredibly easy to achieve."

The secret Patriot Act court has them covered ... probable cause has been issued against everyone ... preemptively.  Stop thinking that Perry Mason is still in law practice.  Also civil forfeiture ... you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent, meanwhile the cops can take your stuff ... for evidence.

So how much of your freedom will you give up ... so you aren't mistaken for a Crip?  Even though you are White?  If you aren't Black, this isn't an issue for you.  Are you worried you might be mistaken for a different Red-Neck than you actually are?  White-Priv much?

[FaithIsFilth]

I don't disagree. But I stick by my original opinion on the topic. I really think it comes down to this. You either believe they're all out to get you or you do not.

I don't believe they are out to get me. Most people in the thread don't seem to be big fans of getting a chip in their hands just yet, and they don't just think the government is out to get them personally. I think they see the potential for abuse. We don't have to be worried about the government targeting us specifically, but what's wrong with worrying about the government targeting others? It has been admitted now that the war on drugs was started to hurt blacks and lefties. That is no conspriracy theory. The government targeting certain groups is just reality, and it is an admitted reality at this point. That's what governments do. They target people and they abuse their power.