Thoughts on the Existence of the Universe

[Mike Cl]

Nipper, Satan lurks in this forum and he is starting to stir.  You risk catching his watchful eye.  Just a heads up.  Don't be so arrogant to think that your God armor will protect you.  Is it worth your soul?  How many other Christians have come here thinking they were strong enough to tempt Satan and remain among the chosen?  Two thirds of us used to be Christians, as firm in belief as you, but we came to the forum and we are now all atheists.  When you stray from God to tempt Satan, it is not some trivial thing.  The Internet is littered with dead souls who thought they were good Christians, but have been cast out and are awaiting their awful fate of doom.

This!  Yes, Nipper, be afraid, be very afraid!!!

[josephpalazzo]

According to  LittleNipper:

[LittleNipper]

So God is not the all-knowing, all-powerfull creator of Satan? Blaming Satan for his wickedness and praising his omnipotent, omniscient creator is like blaming the bomb that went off for those it killed and maimed but calling the bomb-building terrorist that knowingly planted it and set if off a hero because he decided to call the ambulance afterward.

So God is not all-powerfull? He is bound to do this this way, and can't manage a better, more moral way than creating creatures specifically to be destined to rebel against him and receive the lake of fire as punishment for being the way their creator preordained them to be? He was incapable of creating a better world from that get-go that would remain one with everyone choosing to love him of their own will?

So God is not all-knowing? He has to 'find out' who he'll embrace? He could've skipped all of that if he were omniscient. And he could've spared those who wouldn't choose him of free will the existance and eternal punishment that they can't escape by not creating them. Believe me, I love living, but if it's encompanied by eternal burning because I've been created with the foreknowledge that I would not accept the one and only lord as my own personal savior, I'd rather not have existed in the first place.

Honestly, at this point I can only see omnipotence and omniscience going hand in hand with a creator of this reality if the creator is most immoral and wicked. If that were the case you could still say: that may be so, but since I'm afraid of death I'm banking on him being real despite there being no evidence to the claim. Just so that in the smallest of hopes of there being not only life after death but also it being exactly the way I picture it, I can spend it not burning but rather praising an immortal, all-powerful monstrous sociopath for all eternity rather than burning in hell.
Which is not something I could respect. But at least I could understand. If that's not how you see it, Nip, please try again and stay internally consistant regarding your own line of reasoning.

It all depends on what you call 'choice'. And it's what makes me think you don't really think through the consequences of the 'omnipotent, omniscient creator hypothesis'. Let's see if we can make this clear:

The angels who supposedly chose to follow God were preordained to choose this of their own free will as much as the third that rose against him were preordained to choose to rebel. God made them the way he made them knowing they would turn wicked and that he had to smite them down. He is the omniscient creator after all. And he could have created them so that all his creations would chose to love him and not rise against him. He is the omnipotent creator after all. Creating them one way rather than the other does not change the free will and 'choice' in play, as God knew either way before/as he created them what they would choose and he himself chose to create them in such a way with the full knowledge of what that would entail.
And with the possibility of creating a perfect world in which with as much free will as in this one no-one would dissobey him, and remember he has that possibility because of omnipotence and omniscience, he chooses to instead create a world in which sin runs rampant & people and angels are destined to burn forever.

What I feel most people misunderstand concerning GOD is that they believe it's all about "me, you, us, them." The fact is that it is all about God. It seems to me that the only way God could become human and demonstrate His love was to become human with intent to sacrifice Himself. It is all about God assuming a human life so that he can in fact embrace those that are drawn to Him. God now has a body and Christians will inherit a body like Christ's. Jesus wept, suffered, cried, mourned. I'm sure he laughed, he joked, made friends, knew a mommy's love. None of this is humanly possible without first becoming human. And none of this would be possible in a perfect world.

[widdershins]

This is certainly not true. Historically, all hospitals, all universities, all colleges, all orphanages, all soup kitchens, all schools, were not founded by atheists.  Christians do realize that GOD is the is the motivator and instigator and the inspiration behind many of our institutions to encourage growth, maturity, and investigation. 

LOL, you do realize that "historically", meaning, "primitive times", there WERE NO atheists?  And there were no corporations.  There were no individually wealthy people.  There were two types that had money, "historically" speaking.  The government and the church.  So you had a 50/50 shot with it and, HISTORICALLY it was often the government, not the church.  And this probes that God is the motivator behind progress?  Do you realize that "historically" religion, Christianity in particular, is responsible for destroying a great deal of history?  Everyone knows about book burnings, but there was also the destruction of temples.  The one that comes to mind is the conquering of Egypt.  Hieroglyphs were chiseled off the walls in many temples and history was forever lost for it.  And now it's Muslims doing exactly the same thing, destroying ancient temples and art which they disagree with.  And only the church and its members stand against scientific advancement, preferring a stupid populace to those educated enough to know when they're being lied ti.  This is the real "progress" you are so proud of.

[LittleNipper]

According to  LittleNipper:

I do firmly believe that Satan is at the root of the misinterpretation of the fossil record. And I firmly believe that most of the fossils found are the product of the Flood, precursors to the Flood and post Flood settling. I feel that the age of the planet cannot be accurately measured --- because God created a closed finished eco system in 6 days. That means that since Adam was created fully grown, it is probable that the earth was formed with "maturity."

[Mr.Obvious]

What I feel most people misunderstand concerning GOD is that they believe it's all about "me, you, us, them." The fact is that it is all about God. It seems to me that the only way God could become human and demonstrate His love was to become human with intent to sacrifice Himself. It is all about God assuming a human life so that he can in fact embrace those that are drawn to Him. God now has a body and Christians will inherit a body like Christ's. Jesus wept, suffered, cried, mourned. I'm sure he laughed, he joked, made friends, knew a mommy's love. None of this is humanly possible without first becoming human. And none of this would be possible in a perfect world.

Interesting. Interesting.

But could you stay on point please?

Edit: My bad. I misread your post, thinking it had nothing to do with anything I wrote. In all fairness, it does.
But stating God would be bound to do anything like becoming human in order to be able to embrace people, needing to be born as his own son to forgive or love people, needing an imperfect world to do certain things,  ... means he's not omnipotent or omniscient. Or he would find a way to do these things in a perfect world. If he can't, he's not omnipotent and/or omniscient or simply didn't care enough to make a better reality. You see, every time you limit your deity, saying the world has to be this way or that God had to allow this or that, you're limiting him.
You can find a thousand ways to say some unfounded belief, but the core problem remains so far.

[LittleNipper]

LOL, you do realize that "historically", meaning, "primitive times", there WERE NO atheists?  And there were no corporations.  There were no individually wealthy people.  There were two types that had money, "historically" speaking.  The government and the church.  So you had a 50/50 shot with it and, HISTORICALLY it was often the government, not the church.  And this probes that God is the motivator behind progress?  Do you realize that "historically" religion, Christianity in particular, is responsible for destroying a great deal of history?  Everyone knows about book burnings, but there was also the destruction of temples.  The one that comes to mind is the conquering of Egypt.  Hieroglyphs were chiseled off the walls in many temples and history was forever lost for it.  And now it's Muslims doing exactly the same thing, destroying ancient temples and art which they disagree with.  And only the church and its members stand against scientific advancement, preferring a stupid populace to those educated enough to know when they're being lied ti.  This is the real "progress" you are so proud of.

There were always atheists. The Romans considered the early Christians atheists because the Christians didn't believe the Emperors were gods on earth. You need to do some research. Even witchcraft is a way of saying that they are spiritually connected with nature and everyone else was simply ordinary mortals.

[widdershins]

People go to hell not because GOD wants them to go there. They go because they, like yourself, they have no wish to seek GOD. And frankly I have no way of knowing how many people end up in hell. That is between them and GOD. But if one excludes GOD, one cannot blame GOD for a lack of freedom of choice.

Oh, THIS argument again.  The idea the God doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves.  This concept is so stupid that even you, with your mind twisted into believing no matter what, cannot help but know it is not true.  And here's why:

I DID seek God.  I spent 2 years honestly looking, talking to people of different (Christian) religions.  I didn't believe, but I figured that if there was a God, I owed it to him to find out for sure.  Let me tell you, there is no quicker path AWAY from faith than to talk to 2 or 3 people of 2 or 3 religions all at the same time while each knows you're talking to the other.  Do you know why?  Because each of them spends their time telling you all the ways the other is wrong and explaining away what the other told you about how they're wrong.  And why is that?  Because NONE of them can show you how they are right.  Oh, they can quote Bible verses showing that they are doing it right.  They can ALL quote Bible verses showing that they are doing it right.  And they can ALL quote Bible verses showing how the other is doing it wrong.  Every last one of them, without exception, could show me in the Bible where their religion was the right one and every other religion is wrong.  But they can't all be right AND all be wrong.  Which leads to one inescapable conclusion.  They are ALL wrong, which is the conclusion I came to.

Now, looking at my situation (the above was all actually true, not a "parable", which is to say, it was not a way to "lie to you and, if caught, claim it was just a story"), what happened there?  What is my sin?  I DID look for God, and I did so sincerely and with an open mind.  I didn't talk to just one person of one faith and call it good.  According to the Bible, God should have sent me someone of the "correct" faith to show me the way.  I didn't dismiss any of them without actually considering what they were saying.  The only sin you can lay on me is the sin of being tricked by the devil.  You know the saying.  "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't exist."  People like you like to lay the blame on me for "rejecting God", but that's not what happened.  I didn't "reject" God.  I went looking for him.  I didn't find him.  I don't believe in God.  So, assuming I'm wrong, I didn't refuse to follow God or to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I simply don't believe that's true.  I can't believe it's true because everything I have seen says otherwise.  Now you could argue that I have to "have faith", but which one?  I was in a religion before and I can tell you without doubt it was DEFINITELY the wrong religion.  There were clear signs that they were not "Godly".  But that's the religion I chose on "faith".  Every Christian you disagree with chose their religion on faith and they're all wrong.  So faith simply isn't enough.  If you just "have faith" you are FAR more likely to be wrong than right.

So I ask again, what is my sin?  The ONLY "sin" I could have committed was the sin of being tricked.  Only an utter moron would claim that it is in any way a "choice" to be tricked.  But I am an atheist, worthy of Hell, right?  Not because I denied God, not because I refused to listen, but simply because I was tricked into believing there was no God.  In what way is this "sending myself" to Hell?  It is not.  If Hell were real, it is your God who built it and it is your God who controls it and it is your God who decides who goes there and who does not.  The argument that you send yourself to Hell is as vile as the arguments by the defendant in that fatal gang rape in India a couple of years back, "If she didn't want to get hurt she shouldn't have resisted."  Or how about, "A girl is far more responsible for a rape than a boy."?  Like that piece of shit rapist, your argument is called "victim blaming" and it is nothing short of a way for you to sleep at night by pretending it's the victim's own fault when horrible things happen to them.  NOBODY deserves to be lit on fire for all eternity, especially not for simply not believing something which cannot be proved.  The punishment does not fit the crime.  Even if I spend 100 years shouting at the top of my lungs, "There is no God!", how is that deserving of an eternity of punishment?  At this point the only way you can defend your despicable position is with a catch phrase like, "You send yourself to Hell" or "We cannot understand the mind of God" or "God is all just....because reasons."

[widdershins]

There were always atheists. The Romans considered the early Christians atheists because the Christians didn't believe the Emperors were gods on earth. You need to do some research. Even witchcraft is a way of saying that they are spiritually connected with nature and everyone else was simply ordinary mortals.

And you need to do some thinking.  Does the fact that the Romans considered the early Christians atheists mean they were atheists?  No.  If I consider you an atheist that does not make you an atheist.  If you consider a Wiccan an atheist, that does not make him or her an atheist.  And it is FACT that the further back in time you go, the more religious people were, just not as much your religion.  Yes, I'm sure there were always those who did not believe in any gods (the definition of an atheist), but being an atheist didn't put gold in your pockets with which to build hospitals and schools.

[widdershins]

I do firmly believe that Satan is at the root of the misinterpretation of the fossil record. And I firmly believe that most of the fossils found are the product of the Flood, precursors to the Flood and post Flood settling. I feel that the age of the planet cannot be accurately measured --- because God created a closed finished eco system in 6 days. That means that since Adam was created fully grown, it is probable that the earth was formed with "maturity."

Well, not one shred of what you "believe" is backed by science and, in fact, except where you call upon magic as your explanation (admittedly, most of that), it is soundly refuted by science.  You have no reason to believe, for instance, that the fossil record is in any way "misinterpreted".  You just do because that is a convenient belief to help you hold on to your other untenable beliefs.  Someone laid out some "facts" which sounded reasonable and you "chose" not to look into it any further, to simply accept what they said.  It is a known fact that young earth creationists TO THIS DAY believe lies which have been soundly disproved, such as that there are no transitional fossils.

And there is no geological record whatsoever of a global flood, but there IS a record of a local flood from the area in question.  To them, that WAS the world.  It's not that difficult to comprehend that to a man without a canoe an island is the whole world.

As for the age of the planet, you are ignoring the age of other planets, stars and galaxies.  Once again you have to call on magic to save the day for your beliefs.  We KNOW that there are things billions of light years away.  This is FACT.  So you have to call on the explanation that God just "poofed" it into existence, the light already reaching Earth.  Of course, that brings up a whole lot of other problems.  Let's say a star is 1 million light years away and God "poofed" everything 6,000 years ago.  For 6,000 years we have been looking at light that should not have gotten to us for 1 million years, which is a serious problem to your poofery.  You see, the light we see from the star NOW is how the star looked 1 million years ago.  But it didn't exist 1 million years ago.  So you're saying your God created 1 million years of false history for that star and, in fact, a false history for all of the stars everywhere.  He created the illusion of great age.  Why?  I think it's time for one if your, "Yeah, I know it doesn't make sense" catch phrases.  Perhaps, "We cannot understand the mind of God" or "God works in mysterious ways"?  So the God of truth becomes the master of lies, tricking us all for "mysterious" reasons.  But the question is, if you can't understand what his reasons might be, then how are you so sure you're right?  It's not a conclusion you've reached, it's an excuse you've given.  There is nothing "wise" in making up the answers to that which you can't understand.  It is, in fact, the purest form of ignorance.  The idea that the earth was formed with billions of years of dead already in the ground is nothing short of pure ignorance to help keep you from confronting the anti-intellectual nature of your beliefs.

[Baruch]

The theology that says that people convict themselves, not G-d ... is another "get out of jail free" card for G-d.  G-d must not be held responsible for anything, only people should be held responsible, and these people are guilty even before birth, and can't be exonerated without a "get out of jail free" card?

Twisted!

[Mike Cl]

The theology that says that people convict themselves, not G-d ... is another "get out of jail free" card for G-d.  G-d must not be held responsible for anything, only people should be held responsible, and these people are guilty even before birth, and can't be exonerated without a "get out of jail free" card?

Twisted!

Of course, the 'get out of jail free' card isn't free.  You have to pay for it from the 'get out of jail free' card official dispenser,  the minister and church.

[widdershins]

The theology that says that people convict themselves, not G-d ... is another "get out of jail free" card for G-d.  G-d must not be held responsible for anything, only people should be held responsible, and these people are guilty even before birth, and can't be exonerated without a "get out of jail free" card?

Twisted!

VERY twisted.  Essentially what this doctrine says is that God demands perfection from you even though he designed you to be specifically imperfect.  Not only that, but he demands that you be without sin even though he placed sin on you before your birth.  You are supposed to beg forgiveness for not having done that which is impossible for you to do, live without sin.  You have to beg his forgiveness for being the way he made you.  You have to beg his "forgiveness" for the sin he put into you.  Just one more way a relationship with God is an abusive relationship.

[josephpalazzo]

I do firmly believe that Satan is at the root of the misinterpretation of the fossil record. And I firmly believe that most of the fossils found are the product of the Flood, precursors to the Flood and post Flood settling. I feel that the age of the planet cannot be accurately measured --- because God created a closed finished eco system in 6 days. That means that since Adam was created fully grown, it is probable that the earth was formed with "maturity."

If the bible is the word of God, and is inerrant then explain (there are hundreds of contradiction, I only picked two):

(1) MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.


(2)MAT 27:5"And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."

ACT 1:18"Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

[widdershins]

If the bible is the word of God, and is inerrant then explain (there are hundreds of contradiction, I only picked two):

(1) MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.


(2)MAT 27:5"And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."

ACT 1:18"Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

Simple.  Joseph was the man so nice God birthed him twice and Judas....they had good doctors, but not good enough to save him the second time.