Hi All

[Hijiri Byakuren]

So I'm a Christian, I guess. Just not sure about what is true or real and what is untrue or unreal. Is this forum for atheists only, or for anyone?

Technically this is a forum for everyone. In practice, most of the atheists here are very short on patience when it comes to anything theistic, mainly because our theist visitors tend to trot out the same arguments and don't know when to stop arguing.

You either believe or you don't.  We do not accept a position in-between.  Not because we don't approve.  We don't accept it because there is no such thing.

Or as the Argument Ref would say:

[Spockrates]

Nope.  And I hope you don't take offense when we ask why you are a theist. :)

Not at all. I suppose I'm as much a simple, unintelligent philosopher as much as a theist.

[Spockrates]

Okay, Spockrates, I'll bite.  What do you mean when you say you think you are a christian.  Seems to me that is either you are or you aren't.  Why the hesitation?

Yes, sorry for being clear as mud. There is a kind of in-house debate among people who call themselves Christians. For example, a Fundamentalist or Evangelical might say a Catholic, Mormon or Orthodox person is no Christian. They don't see this as merely a matter of their own opinion but as a matter of God's opinion. So the Evangelical and Fundamentalist might say God excludes the Catholics, Mormons and Orthodox from the club.

So when I say I guess, I mean I don't know if I've met the requirements to be or remain in the club.

And I'm an atheist because there is simply no proof of any kind that a god or gods exist.  And there is not any proof that Jesus existed either.  And no, the bible is not proof of anything, much less that Jesus existed; he is simply a myth. 

Much to chew on--so please, chew away.

Fascinating!  For me, personally I wouldn't say it is impossible God doesn't exist. For there is so much I don't know, and it is entirely possible I discover something I don't know that would change my mind.

Please tell me what you have discovered that convinces you that you will never change your mind.

[SGOS]

Yes, sorry for being clear as mud. There is a kind of in-house debate among people who call themselves Christians. For example, a Fundamentalist or Evangelical might say a Catholic, Mormon or Orthodox person is no Christian. They don't see this as merely a matter of their own opinion but as a matter of God's opinion. So the Evangelical and Fundamentalist might say God excludes the Catholics, Mormons and Orthodox from the club.

So when I say I guess, I mean I don't know if I've met the requirements to be or remain in the club.

Sounds like you're trying to figure out who are the true Christians.  Do you think God is that particular?  "Here's a whole country of people that believe in me, but I'm sending the Catholics to Hell, because they kind of fucked up on condemning the outsiders enough,"  or:  "I really appreciate the devotion of the fundies and all, but I'm sending them to Hell, because they get so caught up in finding passages to justify their own bigotry that they don't look at the big picture I'm trying to create."

God has not sent mankind enough information to know that he exists, let alone which nuance invented by man is the right nuance.  When I was a Christian, I went through the same thing looking for the correct sect.  Then one day it dawned on me that before I could decide which sect was correct, I needed to establish whether God was real or not.  All my picking an choosings meant nothing if there wasn't a god, and if there was, I'd probably never get it right anyway.  So I put the horse before the cart and did things in order.

[Baruch]

Well I don't know if you are Christian or not, but you do know about American Christians.  I am a student of comparative religion ... and Christianity is a set of religions, not just one religion (no matter what sectarians say).  This is the norm for every religion.  If you support and attend a congregation that identifies as Christian, then you are one.  Religion is social, not individual.

People continue to develop throughout their lives ... it might be a bit pissant to say that they changed their minds ;-)

And no, you aren't simple or unintelligent.

[Mike Cl]

Yes, sorry for being clear as mud. There is a kind of in-house debate among people who call themselves Christians. For example, a Fundamentalist or Evangelical might say a Catholic, Mormon or Orthodox person is no Christian. They don't see this as merely a matter of their own opinion but as a matter of God's opinion. So the Evangelical and Fundamentalist might say God excludes the Catholics, Mormons and Orthodox from the club.

So when I say I guess, I mean I don't know if I've met the requirements to be or remain in the club.

Fascinating!  For me, personally I wouldn't say it is impossible God doesn't exist. For there is so much I don't know, and it is entirely possible I discover something I don't know that would change my mind.

Please tell me what you have discovered that convinces you that you will never change your mind.

I am familiar with the judgments each christian sect renders on all other sects.  They all believe they have the most direct if not the only, pipeline to god.  That is endlessly fascinating to me in that their all everything and perfect god (aren't they all???!) wants to narrow down those who make it to heaven such a minute number of people--people that he created in his own perfect all everything image.  Doesn't that alone demonstrate that this god is not perfect nor all everything.  Doesn't make sense--but then, theists use belief and not reason to figure out if there is a god or not.  So, I guess, it does make sense.  Theists do not need nor particularly reasons or facts to enter into this decision--only beliefs. 

What I'm interested in, is what about god makes you a believer?  And it matters not if other 'christians' think the way you do--only interested in what you think--or believe.

What have I discovered?  Much--and nothing.  The nothing part.  This is not one single data or fact that leads me to think there is a god.  It is all based on belief.  It is not possible for a god that creates the universe and wants to communicate to his 'children' to leave not a single piece of actual data to prove that.  Or to even suggest that it/he/she exists.  The 'fact' there is not any data at all is a proof to me that god/gods only exist in the minds of man.  Nothing real here. 

The much part--the history of the bible (and all other 'sacred literature') offers no 'facts' other than the 'I say it is so, therefore it is so' type of fact.  The bible is clearly man made and for clearly human reasons.  The same can be said of Jesus.  He is not mentioned by one person outside the bible as being real.  The most one can get is that some writers use the word 'christian', which only indicates that there were those who believed--and offer no proof of a flesh and blood person.  There is nothing but beliefs to support the bible or the jesus myth.  Nothing. 

I will change my mind if some empirical data  ever shows up.  I don't have a problem with changing my mind about much of anything.  Well, I will never change my mind about ice cream--it is simply the best food group out there!  Other than that, my mind is open.  And I have changed my mind about Jesus/jesus  a couple of times.  And I have tried to make Christianity fit my life a couple of times--it just did not work out.  But with some empirical data, it must might.   

[Baruch]

Theological reasoning in the Roman Empire was legalistic reasoning, not scientistic reasoning.  The Romans killed Archimedes and burned the library at Alexandria when Caesar was there.

[Spockrates]

Sounds like you're trying to figure out who are the true Christians.  Do you think God is that particular?  "Here's a whole country of people that believe in me, but I'm sending the Catholics to Hell, because they kind of fucked up on condemning the outsiders enough,"  or:  "I really appreciate the devotion of the fundies and all, but I'm sending them to Hell, because they get so caught up in finding passages to justify their own bigotry that they don't look at the big picture I'm trying to create."

God has not sent mankind enough information to know that he exists, let alone which nuance invented by man is the right nuance.  When I was a Christian, I went through the same thing looking for the correct sect.  Then one day it dawned on me that before I could decide which sect was correct, I needed to establish whether God was real or not.  All my picking an choosings meant nothing if there wasn't a god, and if there was, I'd probably never get it right anyway.  So I put the horse before the cart and did things in order.

Thanks for telling me. Did you decide there was no God because you found insufficient evidence for the being'sexistence? Or did you decide there was no God because you found there was sufficient evidence the being couldn't possibly exist?

[Spockrates]

Well I don't know if you are Christian or not, but you do know about American Christians.  I am a student of comparative religion ... and Christianity is a set of religions, not just one religion (no matter what sectarians say).  This is the norm for every religion.  If you support and attend a congregation that identifies as Christian, then you are one.  Religion is social, not individual.

People continue to develop throughout their lives ... it might be a bit pissant to say that they changed their minds ;-)

And no, you aren't simple or unintelligent.

Thanks for the compliment. :)

Then I suppose my thinking that it's possible to be a Christian without a church is in error. I guess that means who I associate with, rather than what I believe makes me a Christian. Would you say?

[PickelledEggs]

There is no rule against having theists here. We've had long-lasting christians, theists, and deists get along with the other members here that are atheists pretty well in the past on rare occasion.

As long as you can be respectful of the other members and the rules, you won't have any problems for the most part.

So anyway, welcome.

[Mike Cl]

Thanks for telling me. Did you decide there was no God because you found insufficient evidence for the being'sexistence? Or did you decide there was no God because you found there was sufficient evidence the being couldn't possibly exist?

What is the difference???

[Spockrates]

I am familiar with the judgments each christian sect renders on all other sects.  They all believe they have the most direct if not the only, pipeline to god.  That is endlessly fascinating to me in that their all everything and perfect god (aren't they all???!) wants to narrow down those who make it to heaven such a minute number of people--people that he created in his own perfect all everything image.  Doesn't that alone demonstrate that this god is not perfect nor all everything.  Doesn't make sense--but then, theists use belief and not reason to figure out if there is a god or not.  So, I guess, it does make sense.  Theists do not need nor particularly reasons or facts to enter into this decision--only beliefs. 

What I'm interested in, is what about god makes you a believer?  And it matters not if other 'christians' think the way you do--only interested in what you think--or believe.

Good question. After thinking a moment, I guess I'd say it's a presupposition. I presupposed God existed as a child. As an adult, I've not yet found any evidence sufficient to convince me my presupposition is incorrect. But I'm willing to learn! 

What have I discovered?  Much--and nothing.  The nothing part.  This is not one single data or fact that leads me to think there is a god.  It is all based on belief.  It is not possible for a god that creates the universe and wants to communicate to his 'children' to leave not a single piece of actual data to prove that.  Or to even suggest that it/he/she exists.  The 'fact' there is not any data at all is a proof to me that god/gods only exist in the minds of man.  Nothing real here. 

The much part--the history of the bible (and all other 'sacred literature') offers no 'facts' other than the 'I say it is so, therefore it is so' type of fact.  The bible is clearly man made and for clearly human reasons.  The same can be said of Jesus.  He is not mentioned by one person outside the bible as being real.  The most one can get is that some writers use the word 'christian', which only indicates that there were those who believed--and offer no proof of a flesh and blood person.  There is nothing but beliefs to support the bible or the jesus myth.  Nothing. 

I will change my mind if some empirical data  ever shows up.  I don't have a problem with changing my mind about much of anything.  Well, I will never change my mind about ice cream--it is simply the best food group out there!  Other than that, my mind is open.  And I have changed my mind about Jesus/jesus  a couple of times.  And I have tried to make Christianity fit my life a couple of times--it just did not work out.  But with some empirical data, it must might.

I guess I don't understand. Perhaps my ignorance is getting the best of me? One example: I work for a software company and it seems to me DNA is like a complex kind of three dimensional programming. So I tend to think such has a kind of programmer. Is my thinking somehow illogical?

[Spockrates]

What is the difference???

Perhaps there isn't. Just trying to understand why you believe so that I might see if I should believe the same.

:)

[Spockrates]

Welcome to the Madhoose Spock...

As Alice said to the Mad Hatter, "All the best people are!"

[Spockrates]

Are you a Christian?  Do you believe Jesus Christ is your savior?  Christians believe that.  If you are not sure, you are not a Christian.  Sure, you can call yourself one.  I used too, because I was too frightened not too, but not being sure, by definition I didn't believe the required basics.  Perhaps you just believe there is some sort of god out there. 

But you can futz around with such thoughts until the cows come home.  You either believe or you don't.  We do not accept a position in-between.  Not because we don't approve.  We don't accept it because there is no such thing.  Sometimes we argue about that too.  It's kind of nuts around here.

I'm confused. Sounds like you mean you don't believe there is such a thing as an Agnostic.