Drinking a cup of tea can add plausible evidence God exists

[BarkAtTheMoon]

MR, you're aware there are people with a rare condition who don't feel pain, right? Their life pretty much sucks. Pain is necessary for survival and makes all kinds of evolutionary sense.

[widdershins]

Blah, blah, blah, magic and mysticism, blah, blah, ambiguous terminology, blah, blah, blah, blah, we don't understand, blah, blah, we will never understand because..., blah, blah, blah, we can't build robots exactly like us, therefore God.

I have to admit, it's not your least compelling argument ever.

[leo]

Holy smokes the title of the thread is very funny.

[mendacium remedium]

MR, you're aware there are people with a rare condition who don't feel pain, right? Their life pretty much sucks. Pain is necessary for survival and makes all kinds of evolutionary sense.

I completely acknowledge that. I acknowledge you can operate a body, use anesthesia, and they won't feel pain.

My argument is only , when someone does feel pain we can talk about how the pain is caused, (stimulus, sensory neuron), how it travels (transmitters across synapses), how it's detected/processed in the brain. That's all fair.

But that is what it does, how it helps, how it's processed.

What is the 'raw' agony of touching a fire?

[mendacium remedium]

Yeah. Which is a gap in science. And you're using it to justify your belief in god. Which is a "god of the gaps" fallacy. "We don't understand this, therefore god."

It's literally the same thing as one thousand years ago someone going "Oh, bright light comes from the sky and then trees catch fire. It must be god."

It's amazing that you don't understand this.

Thank you for acknowledging it's a gap. A lot of people were trying to 'force' the issue that there is no 'gap' here and it's just 'neurons gonna neuron'.

It just fascinates me...what exactly is the 'raw' feeling of pain.

[Plu]

To be honest I only half understand what you're even talking about, but I see no problems with gaps in our understanding of the universe. Only in people trying to claim the gap must be a god, like you are.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Alright guys,

We just need to acknowledged we can not grapple or 'hack' human consciousness.

I can do so just fine. I don't even have to touch the brain itself to do some rather ham-handed 'hacking.' I can, for instance, turn your Broca's area off entirely with a magnetic induction loop, rendering you with the complete inability to comprehend words and symbols, and all the accompanying thought that comes from that. A few minutes later, that ability comes back as the neurons get themselves in order again.

In terms of science, there is so much more we have to learn, and the human brain has puzzled us.

My argument does not come from the 'god of the gaps' argument. I merely assert that we live in the physical. Sight, pain, all of these 'sensations' should not exist in a stimulus-response world.

Because you say so, and yes, this is a "god of the gaps" type argument because you assert something about the nature of sensation without positive evidence of the assertion, which you just did again — I quote, "all of these 'sensations' should not exist in a stimulus-response world."

The most complex robot could never 'see' or 'feel'. Yes, it could 'respond' , 'detect' , 'plan', but never 'feel'.

Again, because you say so.

You can tell me what causes pain, how it came about, what it's used for, what it does, but no-one can put a hand on that 'raw' feeling,

Because you say so.

which is a collosal gap

'Colossal,' because you say so.

that does make me lean towards the idea of there being an added component - not a soul, but certainly something else we have not discovered, and that we will never discover, because you can not tangibly 'touch' your mind.

Because you say so.

[mendacium remedium]

To be honest I only half understand what you're even talking about, but I see no problems with gaps in our understanding of the universe. Only in people trying to claim the gap must be a god, like you are.

What i am trying to claim is that the 'raw' feeling of pain can not be explained using the physical.

We can explain how it's caused, what it does, why it's there, how it can be stopped,

but the actual 'raw' feeling...the ability to 'feel' that raw feeling, definitely is not materialistic...

Even if you design the most complex of robots which can detect, sense, respond, survive, i really do not see how electrons swirling through circuit boards will ever produce a robot that 'feels'.

I think there is something else here something within every living thing that feels.

[Hakurei Reimu]

To be honest I only half understand what you're even talking about, but I see no problems with gaps in our understanding of the universe. Only in people trying to claim the gap must be a god, like you are.

What i am trying to claim is that the 'raw' feeling of pain can not be explained using the physical.

Because you say so. All you can do is shake your finger insipidly at the sensation and scream, "YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN IT!!!!"

but the actual 'raw' feeling...the ability to 'feel' that raw feeling, definitely is not materialistic...

Because you say so.

[VaasMontenegro]

Alright guys,

We just need to acknowledged we can not grapple or 'hack' human consciousness. In terms of science, there is so much more we have to learn, and the human brain has puzzled us.

My argument does not come from the 'god of the gaps' argument. I merely assert that we live in the physical. Sight, pain, all of these 'sensations' should not exist in a stimulus-response world.

The most complex robot could never 'see' or 'feel'. Yes, it could 'respond' , 'detect' , 'plan', but never 'feel'.

You can tell me what causes pain, how it came about, what it's used for, what it does, but no-one can put a hand on that 'raw' feeling, which is a collosal gap that does make me lean towards the idea of there being an added component - not a soul, but certainly something else we have not discovered, and that we will never discover, because you can not tangibly 'touch' your mind.

[Plu]

What i am trying to claim is that the 'raw' feeling of pain can not be explained using the physical.

First off, it cannot be explained currently. You can't predict the future, so you can't make blanket statements.

Second off, even if it could never ever ever be explained, that still doesn't require a god, and this is still a god of the gaps argument.

So even if you were right about it being unexplainable, which has not been shown, you'd still have no argument for god.

[Rin Hato]

What is the "raw" feeling?

[mendacium remedium]

To be honest I only half understand what you're even talking about, but I see no problems with gaps in our understanding of the universe. Only in people trying to claim the gap must be a god, like you are.

What i am trying to claim is that the 'raw' feeling of pain can not be explained using the physical.

Because you say so. All you can do is shake your finger insipidly at the sensation and scream, "YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN IT!!!!"

but the actual 'raw' feeling...the ability to 'feel' that raw feeling, definitely is not materialistic...

Because you say so.

Because it is not materialistic.  Your 'mind' is not material either.

These things are 'made' by the physical, but themselves aren't physical.

[mendacium remedium]

What is the "raw" feeling?

I can use any example. Say you tap the palm of your hand, or you hold an ice cube.

You can tell me how it happens: stimulus, sensory neuron, transmitters.
You can tell me where it is processed : brain
Why it's useful: protection ect
How it's come about: (to the atheist,  or to some theists, random mutation and natural selection over an age via evolution).

But that is that 'raw' feeling of the 'cold' ice cube?

[mendacium remedium]

Quick poll guys:

Do you think if i designed a robot to move, 'detect', 'plan', 'strategize', the electrons whizzing around it's circuit board to it's CPU would ever result in the robot 'feeling'?