When Atheists Tell The Truth...

[Odoital778412]

So I’m reading through this thread and being impressed by the honesty expressed.

As a thought experiment suppose, just for the moment that it was proven that the Christ and   Biblical God did, in fact, exist.

How would it affect your atheism? How would you reconcile yourself to embracing the need to worship him, :worship:  to denying your atheism?

Would you study the Bible?

I would be in deep shit, my belief is so ingrained I don't think I'd be able to make the change.

Robert

Virtually everyone essentially said that even if the Bible or the God of the Bible were proven to be true, they would still reject Him.  In one sense, that doesn’t surprise me, since that’s what the Bible predicts.  But in another sense, seeing that level of denial is a bit mind blowing.  But it started me thinking about the demand for evidence and whether or not the demand is real or just rhetorical (i.e. used for mere effect)?

Do you think your own demand for evidence or the objections you have are just rhetorical, real, or maybe both?

[Sal1981]

Why do you think a god requires worship?

[Odoital778412]

Why do you think a god requires worship?

He doesn't.  If He did, you'd be worshipping.

[Sal1981]

You sound like a presuppositionalist.

[TomFoolery]

But in another sense, seeing that level of denial is a bit mind blowing.  But it started me thinking about the demand for evidence and whether or not the demand is real or just rhetorical (i.e. used for mere effect)?

It's not about denial. If the God of the Bible were proven to be true, Jesus really did symbolically die for my sins on the cross, the Bible was proved to be true down to the last letter, Heaven and Hell (though Hell as evangelicals preach it isn't in the Bible?) were absolutely true, and so on, I would still reject God and Christianity. It's not about being able to accept evidence and believe.

I would believe. But what I can't get behind is all the s***ty stuff God does in the Bible. The garden, Sodom and Gomorrah, sacrifices, a great flood to get rid of all the people he made in his own image that decided to not live up to his expectations, all the weird rules about hair and clothes and gay people and women. Yes, that's the Old Testament, but if God used to be that way, what made him change? Jesus? Any God that has a change of heart about the way he runs stuff (uh, New Testament anyone?) or any regrets *cough*Noah's Ark*cough* sounds like a pretty scatterbrained sort of dude. That would suggest a God who really isn't omnipotent and all-knowing and more of some charlatan pulling puppet strings like some sick Star Trek joke.

[aitm]

Yep, the god of the babble is not worthy of being worshipped. He is worthy of the utmost distain and hatred.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

If it were true we would all have been dead long ago..No real god would have put up with the human race this long and if it did it wouldn't be worth worship in the first place.

[GSOgymrat]

If I believed the Christian God was real I would try to do what he wanted me to do because I would fear eternal damnation. It is kind of like saying if extraterrestrials appeared, vaporized Australia and said stop eating meat or we will vaporize the rest of the planet, I would immediately become a vegetarian.

If I had faith I wouldn't need evidence, but I don't have faith.

[Odoital778412]

You sound like a presuppositionalist.

No, I'm just pointing out that He doesn't require it.  That's why you're free to not worship and to reject Him.  The incommensurable good is to know God, but that can only be done through free choices.  Otherwise, things like worship and love are meaningless.  So while God desires your appropriate behavior toward Him, He does not require it.  Nor does He force Himself upon you.

[TomFoolery]

No, I'm just pointing out that He doesn't require it.  That's why you're free to not worship and to reject Him.  The commensurable good is to know God, but that can only be done through free choices.  Otherwise, things like worship and love are meaningless.  So while God desires your appropriate behavior toward Him, He does not require it.  Nor does He force Himself upon you.

But would you really call it a "free" choice if the only alternative he offers is to go to Hell? That's like a creditor saying "You don't have to pay your mortgage, but we all know if you don't, you'll be homeless."

[Odoital778412]

It's not about denial. If the God of the Bible were proven to be true, Jesus really did symbolically die for my sins on the cross, the Bible was proved to be true down to the last letter, Heaven and Hell (though Hell as evangelicals preach it isn't in the Bible?) were absolutely true, and so on, I would still reject God and Christianity. It's not about being able to accept evidence and believe.

I would believe. But what I can't get behind is all the s***ty stuff God does in the Bible. The garden, Sodom and Gomorrah, sacrifices, a great flood to get rid of all the people he made in his own image that decided to not live up to his expectations, all the weird rules about hair and clothes and gay people and women. Yes, that's the Old Testament, but if God used to be that way, what made him change? Jesus? Any God that has a change of heart about the way he runs stuff (uh, New Testament anyone?) or any regrets *cough*Noah's Ark*cough* sounds like a pretty scatterbrained sort of dude. That would suggest a God who really isn't omnipotent and all-knowing and more of some charlatan pulling puppet strings like some sick Star Trek joke.

Fascinating.  So you too believe that God's station, position, nature, etc... have no bearing on what He can do with what He's created relative to what we can do with His creation.  You believe that there can be or should be no difference huh?

And sure it's about denial.  Even if you could no longer deny the truth of God, the Bible, or Christianity; you would still deny God His rightful place in your life because you've decided to misunderstand and/or disagree with God.  And then you'd use the disagreement as a wedge to keep God separated from you.  I'd call that a massive level of denial.

[Odoital778412]

But would you really call it a "free" choice if the only alternative he offers is to go to Hell? That's like a creditor saying "You don't have to pay your mortgage, but we all know if you don't, you'll be homeless."

Sure.....and you're the proof.  You can either accept God's offer of pardon through Jesus Christ, or you can choose to pay for your own crimes and be separated from your creator forever.  People choose Hell all of the time.  In fact, most people end up choosing Hell.  They don't want their to be a God to whom they are accountable.  They don't want to bend their knee to someone else or admit that they are owned by the one who gave them life.  Human beings are in a general state of rebellion against Him, but yeah, the choice is free.  I'm choosing to accept God's offer of pardon, which He's not obligated to even offer me.  And you're choosing to reject that offering in favor of paying for your own crimes in eternity.

[TomFoolery]

Sure.....and you're the proof.  You can either accept God's offer of pardon through Jesus Christ, or you can choose to pay for your own crimes and be separated from your creator forever.  People choose Hell all of the time.  In fact, most people end up choosing Hell. 

Alright, I'll play. I'm saying that free choice isn't free choice when the person in charge make all the other possibilities so unpleasant that the only other logical option is to choose the one that was chosen for you.

Worshipping God is like voting in a Russian election. We all know you can vote for the other guy (if one even makes it on the ballot) but you'll end up in a gulag if you do. So sure, that's choice.

And yes, I'd rather go to Hell. And eternity in Heaven would be Hell for me anyway. I'd rather spend it in Hell with all the gay people and blasphemers. It would make for more interesting conversation than having to deal with people like you for eternity.

[Odoital778412]

If I had faith I wouldn't need evidence, but I don't have faith.

You're correct.  If you possess the trust (i.e. faith), then you don't necessarily need evidence.  But a lot of people like to have a reason or some evidence as to why their trust (i.e. faith) will be well placed.  Faith = Trust.  Faith doesn't = Blind Leap.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

The ants in my backyard don't require anything of me and I don't require anything of them. I get to play god all the time by bringing pestilence from the sky,  earthquakes from the shovel, floods from the garden hose and so on, but if they decide to move next door I'm fine with that and don't go next door to smite them.. It's a silly proposal, sure just as your god is a silly proposal..