"I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."

Started by Aletheia, December 04, 2014, 03:54:27 AM

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wbuentello

Quote from: TrueStory on December 04, 2014, 03:27:42 PM
Being a choice is irrelevant.  It's just another word game that bible thumpers play to create an issue out of a non issue.  We should be able to have sex with any consensual partner we want to, no point discussing it further with someone who believes in magic.

I completely agree w/ you. That being said I've had this argument with homophobes before. I always ask them if they choose everyday whether or not they are gonna be attracted to another guy (they are always guys). If its a choice then they must be making a conscious choice every day not to be gay and if this is the case then they must be gay in the first place. Ive never been attracted to a guy and so Ive never had the opportunity to make that choice, ergo they must be gay but in denial of it. Usually they don't want to talk to me any more, which is fine by me.

I will also say that I've heard this argument from some very non-religious people too. It is usually accompanied by the argument that since its a choice then they have chosen that lifestyle and shouldn't be whining about the consequences. But you are absolutely right, who the fuck cares.

Baruch

If it is homophobia ... then it is a mental condition ... common among the populace or not.  No need to respect folks who are afraid of water ... in the sense that we have to argue with them whether or not water is out to get them nor not.  On homosexuality I have little experience, never been attracted to any guys, and had a guy attracted to me only only two occasions ... over a long life.  Or maybe I am just ugly ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

godlessheathen

Isn't "homosexuality a choice" the ultimate "strawman" argument?

A person who is anti-homosexual claims that "gay is bad" - and uses "choice" as some per-determined point of proof that "gay is bad".

Where does it say in the rulebook, that choosing something makes it bad?

Uh - it doesn't?

So what difference does it make?



Think of this --- a couple of generations ago all marriages were arranged by the parents - and anyone who went outside the system and "chose" a mate was most likely disowned by the family.

Sound familiar?

What it all boils down to - is the anti-gay crowd's opinion is based on one thing - their own arbitrary standards.

There's no real logic involved.

They simply want things run, their way.







peacewithoutgod

Quote from: Baruch on July 07, 2015, 08:18:09 PM
If it is homophobia ... then it is a mental condition ... common among the populace or not.  No need to respect folks who are afraid of water ... in the sense that we have to argue with them whether or not water is out to get them nor not.  On homosexuality I have little experience, never been attracted to any guys, and had a guy attracted to me only only two occasions ... over a long life.  Or maybe I am just ugly ;-)

No need to respect anybody with a mental condition? Have you any idea how many millions of people in your country alone suffer from one form or other of a mental condition? Each of them not easily understood by others, even (and I suspect especially) those who have other mental conditions, but not that one! Your own online behavior is no dubious evidence that you rank among this lot, and if you think you deserve to be respected, then you had better learn to show respect for others, phobic or not!
There are two types of ideas: fact and non-fact. Ideas which are not falsifiable are non-fact, therefore please don't insist your fantasies of supernatural beings are in any way factual.

Doctrine = not to be questioned = not to be proven = not fact. When you declare your doctrine fact, you lie.

trdsf

Homophobia is a choice, and/or a learned behavior.  Homosexuality is not.  Simple as that.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

stromboli

Quote from: trdsf on September 10, 2015, 09:50:05 PM
Homophobia is a choice, and/or a learned behavior.  Homosexuality is not.  Simple as that.

There you go clarifying shit. Shame on you.

trdsf

"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

stromboli

Quote from: trdsf on September 10, 2015, 10:21:10 PM
Silly me, talking sense on this planet.  :D

Or to quote what was once said to me- "you talka sense? You no come here no more!"

Baruch

Philias and phobias are not choices ... acting on them are.  But then I thought I was talking with adults ;-)  Homoeroticism and heteroeroticsm are not choices, precisely because they are philias.  Wait, I just realized I am late ... to the consciousness raising meeting of people who oppress those who fear Friday 13.  That is a named phobia BTW.

I have a fear of heights.  I didn't go to school to learn it.  By respect ... I mean ... that if I am in a second floor of a building, and I see the room spinning as a collapse to the floor ... nobody need respect my subjective illusion (not everything subjective is an illusion) that the building is rotating around me, not the other way around.  I am also not saying, that homophobia justifies oppressing gay people, anymore than a similar fear, justifies oppressing black cats.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Munch

I have often wondered on if the phobia of homophobes is that, a phobia, or an instilled mental block brought on by the same indoctrinated thoughts religion pushes on them. Mental conditioning is a strong part of it I believe, if it makes it a phobia or not is debatable, but I'm convinced they are not scared so much as ignorant and just plain bigoted because they think its acceptable to be so.
'Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners' - George Carlin

TomFoolery

Quote from: Munch on September 11, 2015, 07:34:45 AM
I have often wondered on if the phobia of homophobes is that, a phobia, or an instilled mental block brought on by the same indoctrinated thoughts religion pushes on them. Mental conditioning is a strong part of it I believe, if it makes it a phobia or not is debatable, but I'm convinced they are not scared so much as ignorant and just plain bigoted because they think its acceptable to be so.

I feel like it has to be learned. Most kids are pretty open to the idea. My sister said my nephew went to an engagement party for two of her gay friends from work a few years ago and my nephew was 5 and accepted the idea that two men were getting married about as easily as one who wasn't conditioned to think it was disgusting could: mostly that he was bored, wanted to go home and watch Thomas the Train, and why isn't there any cake? The fact that it was "two boys" never even registered in his mind.

Even Christian bloggers Sam and Nia tried to record their five year old giving her opinions on gay marriage after it became legal in June and she's being coached what to say. They took the video down, but they're off camera telling her same-sex marriage is wrong after she says gay people should be able to marry “if they want to.”
How can you be sure my refusal to agree with your claim a symptom of my ignorance and not yours?

trdsf

Quote from: Munch on September 11, 2015, 07:34:45 AM
I have often wondered on if the phobia of homophobes is that, a phobia, or an instilled mental block brought on by the same indoctrinated thoughts religion pushes on them. Mental conditioning is a strong part of it I believe, if it makes it a phobia or not is debatable, but I'm convinced they are not scared so much as ignorant and just plain bigoted because they think its acceptable to be so.
I'm reasonably sure it's a learned behavior; I strongly doubt that there's a genetic component to it, as there is homosexuality.  Otherwise it would cut across all lines and be evident in the animal kingdom as homosexuality does, rather than being concentrated among humans who have a religious objection to it.  To the best of my knowledge, there's no equivalent to gay-bashing anywhere in the animal kingdom, even though there is extensive evidence of homosexual activity and behavior.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

stromboli

Quote from: trdsf on September 11, 2015, 06:40:23 PM
I'm reasonably sure it's a learned behavior; I strongly doubt that there's a genetic component to it, as there is homosexuality.  Otherwise it would cut across all lines and be evident in the animal kingdom as homosexuality does, rather than being concentrated among humans who have a religious objection to it.  To the best of my knowledge, there's no equivalent to gay-bashing anywhere in the animal kingdom, even though there is extensive evidence of homosexual activity and behavior.

I agree. Learned behavior.

mauricio

Quote from: TrueStory on December 04, 2014, 03:27:42 PM
Being a choice is irrelevant.  It's just another word game that bible thumpers play to create an issue out of a non issue.  We should be able to have sex with any consensual partner we want to, no point discussing it further with someone who believes in magic.

The same goes to for liberals spouting wrong/unfounded info on sexuality due to trying to counter the "it's not natural argument". For example the talk of a gay gene or a female mind in a male body or viceversa. Both are very inaccurate statements and trying to naturalize something to counter the conservative appeal to nature which already is fallacious on itself is pretty retarded.

trdsf

Quote from: mauricio on November 18, 2015, 04:14:37 PM
The same goes to for liberals spouting wrong/unfounded info on sexuality due to trying to counter the "it's not natural argument". For example the talk of a gay gene or a female mind in a male body or viceversa. Both are very inaccurate statements and trying to naturalize something to counter the conservative appeal to nature which already is fallacious on itself is pretty retarded.
This is not the same.  It is possible to find genetic markers that strongly correlate with homosexuality and imply a connection, and a few physiological markers have already been found that are correlative (not causative) indicating there is something genetic involved at some level.  It is also possible to counter the "it's not natural" argument by finding examples in nature (which has been done repeatedly).

The (typically) conservative "it's a choice" argument is simply a value judgment made by those who wish to be judgmental.  It makes no testable hypothesis; it is made simply to provide one desperate and terrifically weak excuse to be a bigot.

Why you conflate liberalism with scientific inquiry I don't know, but I thank you for the compliment -- despite your attempt to cast aspersions.  In any case, reference to a theoretical'gay gene' at least provides something that can be tested, and there is already considerable evidence for a significant genetic component, and that evidence has been piling up over the last 20 years with no significant contradictory research.  Besides, 'gay gene' is generally understood to mean a series of genetic markers that play a role in sexual identity, not a single site on one's DNA that makes an absolute biochemical decision on the bearer's behalf.

I'm not going to get into the problem of mind; too many variables, and I freely admit that I rapidly get lost between what's philosophy and what's physiology there.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan