Hi, I'm a cultural Christian

[scroyle]

Honestly, what is your beef? You can't stand the idea that a Christian can be without any superstition? The idea that a Christian can be totally rational and reject the supernatural as something that offends your worldview? What is the problem? Really?

[stromboli]

I can't help wonder if much of this discussion is being generated by some rather idiosyncratic definitions of things like what is meant by holy or atheist or whatever.  Idiosyncratic definitions lead to confusion, and I get the feeling there is a lot of confusion here.  I'm feeling it in myself and am reluctant to join in.  Others seem to be attempting to sort out the confusion, and I don't think I could do any better or offer anything more.

Well stated. Too much mental sorting going on here on a Saturday morning. Coffee time. 

[scroyle]

Or perhaps you want to be able to tease me about the talking snake and the jabbering donkey? Or that a dead man can rise again? Or Jesus can walk on water and turn water into wine? And it defeats everything if I find all that equally laughable? So, it's important for you to establish that I can't be a Christian even though the church confirms me as one?

[scroyle]

Well stated. Too much mental sorting going on here on a Saturday morning. Coffee time. 

Bye!  Let's not tax your pretty little head too much. :) Anyway, it's not important. I just wanted to explain what a cultural Christian was and I think I've done that. If people don't think we cultural Christians exist, that's fine. No need to go through all that mental sorting.

[Sargon The Grape]

Honestly, what is your beef? You can't stand the idea that a Christian can be without any superstition? The idea that a Christian can be totally rational and reject the supernatural as something that offends your worldview? What is the problem? Really?

Possibly the fact that it's a contradiction in terms.

In other news, I am a Muslim who does not believe in Allah or the Quran.

[Mr.Obvious]

I can understand if you're a tad busy. Lot of questions and such flying your way. And I understand if you can't adress it any time soon, but could you please adress my last comment. You really confused me with the answer I quoted and responded to. (It's on page 5 or 6 and perhaps it slipped by unnoticed, but I'm anxiously awaiting a reply.)

[scroyle]

I can understand if you're a tad busy. Lot of questions and such flying your way. And I understand if you can't adress it any time soon, but could you please adress my last comment. You really confused me with the answer I quoted and responded to. (It's on page 5 or 6 and perhaps it slipped by unnoticed, but I'm anxiously awaiting a reply.)

Sorry, I've just looked back at page 5 and I saw your question. No, I'm not saying atheists are inept or inefficient or dumb or in any way inferior in not being able to organise charity the way the church has done. It's just that atheists haven't got the infra structure of the church. We have a huge connection. While it's true that there are many different churches, but when it comes to charity work, we work together most of the time. Minor differences in doctrines are usually overlooked when it's social work. And besides, we are all aware that although different, we are united by one Creed, one baptism and one Lord. That makes it easy to work together not because we want to be different from others. Like when there was some problem in Sri Lanka (I can't remember what it was but it could be another tsunami), my church got in touch with a different church and somehow help could be sent there even before the Red Cross could get cracking. It's a very useful connection for opportunities to do good.

Atheists haven't got that kind of network. An atheist might write to another atheist but he might not bother because atheists are disparate individuals. There's no special religious culture and even religious fables to unite you.

I hope you understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying atheists are inept. You just need religious culture to get things done sometimes.

[scroyle]

Possibly the fact that it's a contradiction in terms.

In other news, I am a Muslim who does not believe in Allah or the Quran.

I'm not sure if you wrote that sarcastically. Yes, I imagine you'd be a Muslim if you perform Muslim rituals, take Muslim sacraments and are recognised by the Muslim priests as a Muslim. Belief in the precise nature of God - whether he's a being or a mere metaphor are insignificant. The question is do you submit to the Mosque?  I'm of course assuming that the position in Islam is the same as that in Christianity. If the Church rules you to be a Communicant, you're a Christian and you participate in the full rituals and Sacraments of the Church. It doesn't matter what others say.

[Mr.Obvious]

Sorry, I've just looked back at page 5 and I saw your question. No, I'm not saying atheists are inept or inefficient or dumb or in any way inferior in not being able to organise charity the way the church has done. It's just that atheists haven't got the infra structure of the church. We have a huge connection. While it's true that there are many different churches, but when it comes to charity work, we work together most of the time. Minor differences in doctrines are usually overlooked when it's social work. And besides, we are all aware that although different, we are united by one Creed, one baptism and one Lord. That makes it easy to work together not because we want to be different from others. Like when there was some problem in Sri Lanka (I can't remember what it was but it could be another tsunami), my church got in touch with a different church and somehow help could be sent there even before the Red Cross could get cracking. It's a very useful connection for opportunities to do good.

Atheists haven't got that kind of network. An atheist might write to another atheist but he might not bother because atheists are disparate individuals. There's no special religious culture and even religious fables to unite you.

I hope you understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying atheists are inept. You just need religious culture to get things done sometimes.

I think it's already clear we won't come to a consensus about wether or not secular organizations can be at least as effective as religious ones. Suffice to say I don't think any of your claims is supported by anything sound and you don't think my objections are valid to break your view. We can discuss this much further and much longer, and we probably will.
But what I was confused about was that you seemed to be saying that secular charity organizations are atheist organizations after you, just a few posts earlier, made a big deal about them not being atheist organizations. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but I'd like to get that point clear.

[PickelledEggs]

Hey scroyle, how often do you crap and fart?

Sent via Internet Explorer

[Sargon The Grape]

I'm not sure if you wrote that sarcastically. Yes, I imagine you'd be a Muslim if you perform Muslim rituals, take Muslim sacraments and are recognised by the Muslim priests as a Muslim. Belief in the precise nature of God - whether he's a being or a mere metaphor are insignificant. The question is do you submit to the Mosque?  I'm of course assuming that the position in Islam is the same as that in Christianity. If the Church rules you to be a Communicant, you're a Christian and you participate in the full rituals and Sacraments of the Church. It doesn't matter what others say.

Sarcasm is a foreign language to you, I see.

You've also shown that you have zero knowledge of philosophical positions outside your own, if you actually believe any Muslim would accept that bs.


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[La Dolce Vita]

That's nothing. I'm totally unfazed. I'm used to atheists and I'm aware that for some of you, when you drop your religious culture, you drop all culture and courtesy but that's ok. Using memes to communicate may appear so unintellectual in the polished circles I move in but hey, I can take atheistic excesses. :)  Let's have more of your memes. I know that's how you communicate and I'm eager to see more.

The meme was a reaction to your blatant lie that no christians consider atheists evil. Legions of christians do and publicly state so, including ministers. They say atheists will burn in hell. They say atheists should burn in hell. They think atheists are of the devil, and so on. Are you truly so out of touch  with your religion?

Yes, some people here have stated that you are not a christian. You can define yourself however you want, but you do not fit most christians' definition of a christians. Like you said, the evengelicals and fundamentalists would certainly not consider you a christian. Belief in an actual god tends to be the tenant of basic christianity as well. Do any poll and you'd find this to be the supreme defining mark of the religion, regardless of denomination. I don't see how you can be religious without superstition. Every religion, including the atheistic ones, are based on superstition and beliefs. Without that you'd be embracing modernized liberal Christianity as a philosophy rather than a religion as far as I'm concerned - but as long as your church is ok with you being an atheist christian, you certainly belong to your church. And as long as you embrace the ideology you can certainly make a rational case for yourself being an atheist christian as well.


And again, what country do you live in??? I'm really interested.

[La Dolce Vita]

stromboli, if you look at the posts so far, you will see that I have not laid judgment on atheists as you wrongly claimed. I've only defended myself as a Christian when people call me an atheist.

You ARE an atheist by the definition atheists use, the definition you will find in any dictionary (including the offensive and incorrect ones) and by the laws of grammar themselves. No definition of atheism has ever connected it to a lack of or rejection of religion. You do not believe in a god, therefor you are an atheist. When we say you are an atheist we only say what the word means: "someone who does not believe in gods". You have already stated this multiple times, so you cannot defend yourself from it.

When I said atheists could not come up with the same sort of charity that the church has, I did not mean it as an accusation against atheists. I made it very clear that atheists are good people. I've said that repeatedly. All I've said is atheists do not have the huge infra-structure that the church has. And you've got to admit it. Atheists are individualistic and you can't herd them the way the Christian flock can be herded. I've read how some atheists tried to start a Sunday worship equivalent but it failed. There were many atheists who hated the idea. This is not an indication that atheists are bad. By no means.

We have secular charities! Why on earth would we want specifically atheist charities??? I find this offensive actually. You talk to atheists as if we were an ideological group with similarities when we in fact are not. Asking for specific atheist charity is like asking for specific charity from non-hindus or specific charity from non-football fans. It makes no sense. The secular/humanist charities are the charities without religion/dogma and therefor the charities most atheists will choose. Plenty of (non-religious) atheists likely donate to  red cross, etc. too though.

[scroyle]

The meme was a reaction to your blatant lie that no christians consider atheists evil. Legions of christians do and publicly state so, including ministers. They say atheists will burn in hell. They say atheists should burn in hell. They think atheists are of the devil, and so on. Are you truly so out of touch  with your religion?

Yes, some people here have stated that you are not a christian. You can define yourself however you want, but you do not fit most christians' definition of a christians. Like you said, the evengelicals and fundamentalists would certainly not consider you a christian. Belief in an actual god tends to be the tenant of basic christianity as well. Do any poll and you'd find this to be the supreme defining mark of the religion, regardless of denomination. I don't see how you can be religious without superstition. Every religion, including the atheistic ones, are based on superstition and beliefs. Without that you'd be embracing modernized liberal Christianity as a philosophy rather than a religion as far as I'm concerned - but as long as your church is ok with you being an atheist christian, you certainly belong to your church. And as long as you embrace the ideology you can certainly make a rational case for yourself being an atheist christian as well.


And again, what country do you live in??? I'm really interested.

I've only read about American Christians saying atheists will burn in hell. I've seen something to that effect in the Westboro Baptist Church's picketing. But in all my ENTIRE life as a Christian right through my altar boy days, I've NEVER heard such nonsense from any priest in my church or any other churches. Oh yes, I met some people in Leicester Square who told me I'd go to hell because I'd gone to St Paul's that morning.  I imagine they'd say the same thing about atheists too but you guys aren't the only ones who they say will burn in hell. They said my entire church and the entire royal family too. LOL. But honestly, I've not heard any normal sane Christian saying atheists will burn in hell.

I can tell you what country I grew up in but I'd rather keep my current location under wraps.

[Hydra009]

It doesn't require much skill. Of course it's easy to get the Eucharist from any church. Anyone can pretend to be a communicant. And of course it's no big deal because it's just a bit of flour and a bit of bad quality wine. If it makes you happy, why not. When I say sacrilege, I don't mean it in a cosmic sense which is what you are implying. Nothing happens of course.

Good to hear that.  If you got upset over me eating a cracker (like Catholics in droves apparently do), you'd be the lunatic, not me.

I've read PZ Myers' Eucharist Challenge and I was supportive of him actually. I was dead opposed to the RC church for threatening the student. As a cultural Christian, I revere human culture but up to a point. If someone goes against the culture, it's all right to sacrifice the culture but it's not all right to threaten that person. So, the student who stole the Eucharist may have done a discourteous thing but it's too small a matter to have any reprisal. What the RC church did was disgusting. They tried to get PZ Myers sacked. They threatened the student and insisted that he returned the wafer.

Yes, it was disgusting behavior.  Childish superstition, rage, and even the potential for violence.  Bare that in mind the company you keep when you go to services and exactly what you are saying when you call yourself a member of this (not very) enlightened and progressive religion.