Yo!

[Sargon The Grape]

One concession I'll make about science is this: at the end of the day, it's just a tool.

If you want to find a way to solve world hunger, science is the best way to do it; and if you want to create a weapon of mass destruction, science is also the best way to do it. Religion could never have created the atomic bomb, but neither could it have given us crop rotation and fertilizer. If religion leads you to do good things with science, more power to you; just remember that it was science, not religion, that afforded you the capability in the first place.

[Plu]

And also remember that while religion can be replaced with a hundred reasons for allowing a person to do good with science, there is not a single known thing in the world that can replace science and yield the same results.

(And in the odd case that we do find something that works as well or better, you can believe that it'll be put to use immediately and with as little fuss as there can be.)

[Savior2006]

Hey, my name is Will. Just awkwardly introducing myself....

Things about me:

*I love road cycling
*I'm in the process of changing my degree to an associates in Communications (originally Business Administration - Hr management)
*I've lived in the same house (in the country) for my whole life (19 years).
*I'm a Christian

I'm in the awkward stage in life where all my friends from high school are going to colleges in other states (sometimes even different countries) so in real life I don't really have anyone to talk to anymore. And I live in the country in the middle of nowhere so it's not like I can go out and readily meet new people. So I'd love to make some new friends here!

Two days late but nice to have you here. Sorry you got swarmed so much so fast, but it tends to happen here. Hope you stick around.

[bada94]

Guys I really think you're going too fast for him, I could see more than 60 questions on the previous page xD. You can't expect him to answer all of that. Whenever someone who is religious claims something irrational or supernatural, i just get to the fundamentals. So Will, if you could just answer this one question, that would be a great start : How do you know that a god exists ?

[will power]

Uh... yes. Science accounts for....

I'll stop you right there. Quote me where I said "science" when you were quoting me. Arguing about how long the universe was made =/= science in general feeding people. I'm not arguing that science doesn't help or feed people. Thanks for judging me.

It's incredibly vital to know and understand the order of things. If we didn't do that, we'd still be living in caves.

Uh, what? I debated about even replying to this one. Knowing the order of the universe =/= building houses. That is just common sense.

EDIT: here's a simple test. Look around you. Find 1 object in your room that hasn't been made or improved somehow by people applying science.

Oh my...

1.) Thanks for stereotyping me as anti-science. 2.) Thanks for judging me

Just because I say "knowing the order of the universe is a stupid argument" doesn't mean I'm anti science. Come on, as Atheists I expected better arguments.

So yeah; "bickering" about the big questions of the universe is definately having an impact on your life.

How? You didn't make that clear. Knowing the order of universe made =/= impacting my life. It really hasn't.

BTW Yo just how have christians fed the poor and taken care of the homeless without charging them for it?

Well if you want a credible source, research Peoria Rescue Ministries. Research any Christian homeless shelter. Research missions trips overseas and to our home country. A good sized group from my church just went over to equator to provide a clean water solution to a whole town by installing pipes that deliver clean drinking water. No cost to the town. Or like I mentioned earlier, the rescue ministries. Provides free shelter to homeless people (high rate where I live) and free food. No cost to the attendees.

Best get rid of your computer, your television, your smartphone, the lock on your door... your door... see where I'm going with this?

Nope. Knowing the order that the universe was made =/= knowing how to make technology. Bad logic with this scenario. Knowing the order of things made in the universe =/= knowledge how to build and construct using science.

So runaway capitalism is stupid, and according to you this is somehow science's fault. Brilliant logic there.

Whoa. Biggest straw man fallacy on this thread yet. Care to expand using sources and quotes so I know you're not judging what I believe in? Not caring what order the universe was made in doesn't mean I'm anti-science. For the tenth time.

Because it is. You're just too blind to see that without science, being "poor and homeless" would be the state of all human beings on the planet. Science can't solve every problem on its own, but it's a damn sight better than living in caves!

Whoa. Surprise. Another false judgement.

I'M NOT ANTI SCIENCE JUST BECAUSE I DON'T CARE WHAT ORDER THE UNIVERSE WAS MADE IN. Get it now? No? Not caring what order the universe was made in =/= no ability to make houses. This is just a poor fallacy.

lol. "Nothing is impossible with God, except when it is."

Another straw man. It's not even worth it...I can only sit back and laugh. I hoped for better arguments here. Something that would actually make me think a little...

I once read a book about how to apply the theory of evolution to medical science. It really is amazing how much doctors try to fight the body instead of working with it, simply because many of them don't think to understand why the body has the systems it has (or in the US, because many of them were not educated in evolution theory at all).

And? Theory of evolution =/= the big bang (and the order that came from it), which I'm saying is pointless to argue about. I'm not anti science.

A supreme being would know how to make itself understood to us mere mortals, especially if it created us and presumably knows what makes us tick. The quote is therefore meaningless, and only helps to show that your religion is bullshit.

Wait, so just because he's saying God's ways are different from us means that the whole religion is undermined? Try again...

Translation: I know it's bullshit and won't try to tell you otherwise, olololololololololololoolololololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Um...  :rollin:

I got a pretty big chuckle out of that one. You still haven't proved it's not inerrant. Try again.

Funny how most of you can't even agree on that. As if I needed more evidence that this shit is made up.

Funny how scientists don't agree on everything either. Does that mean the world is messed up because scientists don't all agree? No. Christians don't agree on everything. Does that mean the religion itself is undermined because they have differing views? No. Poor logic. Nobody studies logic anymore, I understand, but you should still grasp the basics of it.

Which is to say: The Bible doesn't condemn slavery and in fact tells you how to manage them. Ergo, the Bible condones slavery. What part of this is unclear to you?

This shows that you are ignorant of what the Bible is actually about (not meant as an insult).

"Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society."

And once again, most of you can't even agree on that.

Atheists don't agree on everything. They must be wrong in their beliefs! Or so according to this logic....

You revile science for not having all the answers,

No. Just no. If you haven't read my comments in this post about science thus far, I have no longer need to debate you. Quote me one time where I've said this. No? Okay.

yet you can't even get your own collective act together

Ad hominem fallacy at its finest, boys! Show me evidence.

And you wonder why we trust empirical evidence over bronze age myths

You don't provide evidence for your arguments, attack my beliefs even though I wasn't going to share them in the first place until I was asked, use ad hominems and straw man fallacies, and you expect me to trust you? Think about that for a minute.

A straw man argument is when someone sets up an inaccurate presentation of the opposing argument and attacks that presentation.

Thanks for telling me something I already know. You used a straw man, therefore I called it out. Da ding!

You've made plenty yourself against science, though.

*Shakes head* #-o

You didn't answer a single argument with anything approaching a satisfactory answer.

Of course it wasn't a satisfactory answer, because it didn't agree with you. ;)

You trotted out the same tired apologetic arguments that have been debunked again and again and again.

I don't think you've taken a debate class. You can't make claims like this and not back them up now... try again.

One concession I'll make about science is this: at the end of the day, it's just a tool.

If you want to find a way to solve world hunger, science is the best way to do it; and if you want to create a weapon of mass destruction, science is also the best way to do it. Religion could never have created the atomic bomb, but neither could it have given us crop rotation and fertilizer. If religion leads you to do good things with science, more power to you; just remember that it was science, not religion, that afforded you the capability in the first place.

And I agree. Why are we talking about this again? When Atheists see the word "Christian" or "I don't care about the order of which things were made in" they all scream ANTI-SCIENCE. MURDER HIM! Um, yeah...and they say Christians are the judgmental ones. *whistle*

And also remember that while religion can be replaced with a hundred reasons for allowing a person to do good with science, there is not a single known thing in the world that can replace science and yield the same results.

(And in the odd case that we do find something that works as well or better, you can believe that it'll be put to use immediately and with as little fuss as there can be.)

*headdesk* I'm not anti science. I'm done typing that.

Guys I really think you're going too fast for him, I could see more than 60 questions on the previous page xD. You can't expect him to answer all of that. Whenever someone who is religious claims something irrational or supernatural, i just get to the fundamentals. So Will, if you could just answer this one question, that would be a great start : How do you know that a god exists ?

Thanks! I only have enough time to use the internet for one hour a day with my schedule, which is roughly making one long post a day. There's no way I'll be able to answer every single attack that I'm getting...haha.

I have faith that God exists. I don't know for certain. Faith =/= knowing 100%. However, I believe there's a God because of multiple reasons that I'm going to quickly cover, and that I know someone is going to attempt to pound. I mean, I'm the devil according to some atheists.

Order can't come from disorder. Nothing can't explode into something. Yes, people are going to pound this one because of the discovery of the "God Particle" and say that something can come from nothing. I disagree, because it's just common sense that when you have nothing, something can't come from nothing. There *has* to be something existing in order for something else to be made. An example would be babies. Something as complex as babies can't appear out of thin air (although I've had atheists in the past tell me that they could...I'm not bluffing...they straight up told me it's possible but not probable that babies and dogs can appear in thin air. Yeah I know, I'm scratching my head too). In order to have a baby, you have to have two humans do the deed to create another human. The universe is much more complex than a baby. Something outside of the universe has to be at work. Now people have said the expanding/collapsing universe theory, which states that the universe is in a constant cycle of expanding and collapsing forever. This is not possible for a few reasons, but I'm running short on time right now.

Another reason why I believe in the Christian God is all the extra-biblical resources that tell us and confirm of Jesus and his miracles. A few names to note down for extra-biblical Jesus references would be Cornelius Tacitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, Thallus, Pliny the younger, Celsus, Lucian of Samosata, Mara bar-serapion, flavius Josephus, The babalonian talmud, clement of rome, ignatius of antioch, quadratus of athens, aristides the athenian, Justin Martyr, and Hegesippus.

Also, personal experiences through answered prayers and life experiences in general have shown to me that God is true and living.

I definitely don't have time to reply to everyone seeing that I have a 45 minute speech to write for Monday...but I'll get to them when or if I can. *if* meaning that I don't get bombarded, which I wouldn't put it past you guys xD.

[Sargon The Grape]

Once more, unto the bullshit.

Best get rid of your computer, your television, your smartphone, the lock on your door... your door... see where I'm going with this?

Nope. Knowing the order that the universe was made =/= knowing how to make technology. Bad logic with this scenario. Knowing the order of things made in the universe =/= knowledge how to build and construct using science.

Science is the study of "the order of the universe" as you put it. Your statement basically means, "science =/= science." To which I can only say, "lol wut?"

So runaway capitalism is stupid, and according to you this is somehow science's fault. Brilliant logic there.

Whoa. Biggest straw man fallacy on this thread yet. Care to expand using sources and quotes so I know you're not judging what I believe in? Not caring what order the universe was made in doesn't mean I'm anti-science. For the tenth time.

This is not a straw man for the reasons I mentioned above. I have not misrepresented your statements in any way. Whether or not you comprehend your own statements is also not my concern.

Because it is. You're just too blind to see that without science, being "poor and homeless" would be the state of all human beings on the planet. Science can't solve every problem on its own, but it's a damn sight better than living in caves!

Whoa. Surprise. Another false judgement.

I'M NOT ANTI SCIENCE JUST BECAUSE I DON'T CARE WHAT ORDER THE UNIVERSE WAS MADE IN. Get it now? No? Not caring what order the universe was made in =/= no ability to make houses. This is just a poor fallacy.

Show that it is a false judgement. I'm not the one who needs to prove his case here. If you don't understand what your own words mean, you should re-evaluate your argument. There are no fallacious statements in my post.

lol. "Nothing is impossible with God, except when it is."

Another straw man. It's not even worth it...I can only sit back and laugh. I hoped for better arguments here. Something that would actually make me think a little...

Yes, it's clear that thinking is not your strong suit. Particularly since you seem to think science is studying something other than the universe.

I once read a book about how to apply the theory of evolution to medical science. It really is amazing how much doctors try to fight the body instead of working with it, simply because many of them don't think to understand why the body has the systems it has (or in the US, because many of them were not educated in evolution theory at all).

And? Theory of evolution =/= the big bang (and the order that came from it), which I'm saying is pointless to argue about. I'm not anti science.

You think science is studying something other than the order of the universe. Your argument is invalid.

A supreme being would know how to make itself understood to us mere mortals, especially if it created us and presumably knows what makes us tick. The quote is therefore meaningless, and only helps to show that your religion is bullshit.

Wait, so just because he's saying God's ways are different from us means that the whole religion is undermined? Try again...

This is stupid on too many levels to count. It's saying that we should not question God because his ways are different. Yet God clearly should be able to get his point across given what he is. The better question is, "Why does God need an excuse for you not to question him?" The answer is obviously that this is not the wisdom of a supreme being and is, in fact, bullshit.

Translation: I know it's bullshit and won't try to tell you otherwise, olololololololololololoolololololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Um...  :rollin:

I got a pretty big chuckle out of that one. You still haven't proved it's not inerrant. Try again.

Implying that I need to prove anything at all. If you think something is inerrant, you have to prove it's inerrant. I only have to show how full of shit your arguments are.

Funny how most of you can't even agree on that. As if I needed more evidence that this shit is made up.

Funny how scientists don't agree on everything either. Does that mean the world is messed up because scientists don't all agree? No. Christians don't agree on everything. Does that mean the religion itself is undermined because they have differing views? No. Poor logic. Nobody studies logic anymore, I understand, but you should still grasp the basics of it.

Scientists don't claim to possess revealed truth; Christians do. If scientists disagree, it only means they made different observations. If Christians disagree, it's because their so-called revealed truth is bullshit. Revealed truth should be the same across the board; multiple versions of the same belief cannot all be true!

Which is to say: The Bible doesn't condemn slavery and in fact tells you how to manage them. Ergo, the Bible condones slavery. What part of this is unclear to you?

This shows that you are ignorant of what the Bible is actually about (not meant as an insult).

"Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society."

So apparently slavery is part of the path to salvation.

You walked right into that one, dude, don't get mad at me. :-D

And once again, most of you can't even agree on that.

Atheists don't agree on everything. They must be wrong in their beliefs! Or so according to this logic....

Atheists do not claim to possess revealed truth; Christians do. What part of this do you not understand?

You revile science for not having all the answers,

No. Just no. If you haven't read my comments in this post about science thus far, I have no longer need to debate you. Quote me one time where I've said this. No? Okay.

I did. Many times. Every time you said learning the "order of the universe" was pointless, you reviled science. In your mind, science is somehow studying something other than the universe. (Even though the very definition of science is to study the universe.)

yet you can't even get your own collective act together

Ad hominem fallacy at its finest, boys! Show me evidence.

First of all, you don't know what ad hominem is. In fact, you seem to be painfully under-educated in the subject of logical fallacies in general. Secondly, I don't have to show you a damn thing. You're the one claiming the Bible is inerrant, and you're the one claiming your religion is correct. It is your job to prove this, and I find it rather curious that you have so far not attempted to do so. :-|

[Plu]

What the guy above said. Science is the pursuit of understanding the universe. You seem to severely misunderstand the basic idea of science. (Which, interestingly, is a common trait in the religious and the young earth creationists in specific)

Unfortunately, any kind of discussion is pointless with people who don't understand science, because everything people communicate and discuss requires a basic understanding of the workings of science and debate.

So all that is left to do is for me to say: go out and try to understand what it is that scientists are doing. Until you do that, nothing in the world will ever make sense to you, because science is the only thing we have that makes sense of the universe.

The fact that you think there's a difference between the science of astrophysics and "feeding people" shows you how strange your idea of science is. The study of the origin of the universe has created countless breakthroughs in modern science, in many fields. Especially the fields of energy production (understanding where energy came from and how it works in the first place will be the key to unlocking new sources of it) but also nano-technology (did you know scientists understand the universe so well that they've made a material called Graphene, which is so tough that a paper-thin sheet of it can balance an elephant? Imagine building houses out of that!) to the basic field of organic combustion (do you even know how human beings convert food to energy? It's an amazingly complex chemic system, and understanding it will help us feed them better)

I don't know what kind of college it is you're going to, but you'd do well to see if it has a science department and to ask them "what is science, and what does it do?". Well, unless it's a christian college, in that case you should really find a secular college first and then ask them, because it sounds like you've been taught the christian idea of science for quite a while now.


And really, when you say "I'm not anti-science" what you're really saying is "I'm not anti-technology", which is basically saying "I'll gladly use what science has come up with as long as I don't have to stop believing in my holy book."

Fortunately for you, science doesn't really care about your holy book because it doesn't produce any results, so you will never find any technology that disproves it. After all; there's nothing in there to work with. In that regard, christians have it easy: they can believe what they want, because technology works regardless of your beliefs. And religion doesn't do anything regardless of your beliefs, so it can't be disproven. All anyone can do is show you that there's nothing there; but people are very good at convincing themselves there is something there when there is nothing.

I actually posted a TED video on that very topic yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... z1R0o&NR=1

I would actually advise you not to watch it, unless you are really interested in understanding the world, and understanding yourself. It's not a pretty place, but in the end it's the only thing that's real.

[bada94]

Order can't come from disorder. Nothing can't explode into something. Yes, people are going to pound this one because of the discovery of the "God Particle" and say that something can come from nothing. I disagree, because it's just common sense that when you have nothing, something can't come from nothing. There *has* to be something existing in order for something else to be made. An example would be babies. Something as complex as babies can't appear out of thin air (although I've had atheists in the past tell me that they could...I'm not bluffing...they straight up told me it's possible but not probable that babies and dogs can appear in thin air. Yeah I know, I'm scratching my head too). In order to have a baby, you have to have two humans do the deed to create another human. The universe is much more complex than a baby. Something outside of the universe has to be at work. Now people have said the expanding/collapsing universe theory, which states that the universe is in a constant cycle of expanding and collapsing forever. This is not possible for a few reasons, but I'm running short on time right now.

Alright, so if you're talking about something like the kalam cosmological argument, I really suggest you should check my topic on it here :  //http://atheistforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1512. The argument contradicts itsself, and you can clearly see why.

Another reason why I believe in the Christian God is all the extra-biblical resources that tell us and confirm of Jesus and his miracles. A few names to note down for extra-biblical Jesus references would be Cornelius Tacitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, Thallus, Pliny the younger, Celsus, Lucian of Samosata, Mara bar-serapion, flavius Josephus, The babalonian talmud, clement of rome, ignatius of antioch, quadratus of athens, aristides the athenian, Justin Martyr, and Hegesippus.

This is interesting because it looks like you're providing fiction to prove fiction (no offense). In India a lot of recources claim that krishna actually existed and fought shiva. So are you thinking about becoming a hindu now ? Of course not  

Also, personal experiences through answered prayers and life experiences in general have shown to me that God is true and living.

I understand that you do not have a lot of time, but when you do, could you give some examples of this ?

[Plu]

Also, personal experiences through answered prayers and life experiences in general have shown to me that God is true and living.

You should sign up for one of those researches where they try to measure the effect of prayer on someone's life.

(Hint: the effect of prayer on your life is always zero when observed objectively.)

[will power]

*sigh* It's not worth responding to every single argument. I'll just make a short post and leave it at that, because obviously you guys are too hard hearted to have an open mind to other beliefs.

In a nutshell of what I believe:

I agree with science. I use science every day with my job. I'm not anti science. I don't care what order the universe was made in. Just because I don't care about one aspect of the universe, doesn't mean I don't care about science and we should all live like apes. I'm also not saying the Bible or scientists were wrong in their prediction of the order of the universe. And I'm not evangelizing my ideas from the street corners saying that nobody should believe in order. Horrible argument from you guys.

I'm aware of the "burden of proof" crap that you guys always bring up. But the thing is, atheists bring up claims too. "There is no God." Burden of proof. Prove that there is no God, because obviously you made a claim and you need to prove it, or at least provide credible evidence. If you don't believe in God, obviously you're making a claim that you have knowledge that there is an absolute value of no God. You need to back up that claim. It's a cop out to say "well I don't believe it, but I don't need to prove it. Everyone's just supposed to know my beliefs and serve me." If you didn't realize it, you guys are what evilbible.com and other sources call you...evangelical atheists. They're loud and evangelizing about their beliefs just as much as Christians and other religions do. Obviously you have to have a burden of proof if you're loud about how something doesn't exist. Now some will bring up the argument "Atheism means we lack belief in a God, not that we believe that there's no God. Thus the burden of proof is on you." It's the same thing! If you lack belief in a claim, you're making a claim yourself saying "I lack belief, therefore I don't believe."

Also, I am quite entertained that Atheists (well, my good friend who is an atheist anyways) claims that Atheists are one of the most tolerant groups out there. By this thread, I'd beg to differ. It's more along the lines of trolls. You ask for Christians to have meaningful debates, and yet you flame. You need to preach that to yourself before you preach that to me. And atheists call Christians hypocritical. xD

[mykcob4]

*sigh* It's not worth responding to every single argument. I'll just make a short post and leave it at that, because obviously you guys are too hard hearted to have an open mind to other beliefs.

In a nutshell of what I believe:

I agree with science. I use science every day with my job. I'm not anti science. I don't care what order the universe was made in. Just because I don't care about one aspect of the universe, doesn't mean I don't care about science and we should all live like apes. I'm also not saying the Bible or scientists were wrong in their prediction of the order of the universe. And I'm not evangelizing my ideas from the street corners saying that nobody should believe in order. Horrible argument from you guys.

I'm aware of the "burden of proof" crap that you guys always bring up. But the thing is, atheists bring up claims too. "There is no God." Burden of proof. Prove that there is no God, because obviously you made a claim and you need to prove it, or at least provide credible evidence. If you don't believe in God, obviously you're making a claim that you have knowledge that there is an absolute value of no God. You need to back up that claim. It's a cop out to say "well I don't believe it, but I don't need to prove it. Everyone's just supposed to know my beliefs and serve me." If you didn't realize it, you guys are what evilbible.com and other sources call you...evangelical atheists. They're loud and evangelizing about their beliefs just as much as Christians and other religions do. Obviously you have to have a burden of proof if you're loud about how something doesn't exist. Now some will bring up the argument "Atheism means we lack belief in a God, not that we believe that there's no God. Thus the burden of proof is on you." It's the same thing! If you lack belief in a claim, you're making a claim yourself saying "I lack belief, therefore I don't believe."

Also, I am quite entertained that Atheists (well, my good friend who is an atheist anyways) claims that Atheists are one of the most tolerant groups out there. By this thread, I'd beg to differ. It's more along the lines of trolls. You ask for Christians to have meaningful debates, and yet you flame. You need to preach that to yourself before you preach that to me. And atheists call Christians hypocritical. xD

As usual another christian not providing one single logical argument to support their myth, and in the same breath denegrating the only thing in history (science) that has truly advanced mankind. Yes YOU and all christians are hypocrites by definition, and heres why.
Christians don't apply the same standard of proof to their own belief. In otherwords you want everyone to take your myth on faith and you want concrete emperical evidence when it comes to science. You even make stupid illogical statements like, "Do you see, where you there?"
So yes you are a hypocrite!

[bada94]

Wow, you just got schooled, Will. hahahah

[Sargon The Grape]

*sigh* It's not worth responding to every single argument. I'll just make a short post and leave it at that, because obviously you guys are too hard hearted to have an open mind to other beliefs.

Do not project your own unwillingness to listen onto people who have had this much patience to address your arguments thus far.

I agree with science. I use science every day with my job. I'm not anti science. I don't care what order the universe was made in.

This is akin to saying, "I care, but I don't care." I cannot conceive of how you can be anything but anti-science if you don't care about the order of the universe: This is precisely what science is studying!

Just because I don't care about one aspect of the universe, doesn't mean I don't care about science and we should all live like apes.

I swear, I am this close to breaking my "no ad hominem" rule with you, just for statements like this one. I'm trying to wrap my brain around how delinquent your education had to have been to think that science is studying something other than the universe.

I'm also not saying the Bible or scientists were wrong in their prediction of the order of the universe. And I'm not evangelizing my ideas from the street corners saying that nobody should believe in order. Horrible argument from you guys.

I'm aware of the "burden of proof" crap that you guys always bring up.

Gee, I've never seen this argument coming up before... :roll:

But the thing is, atheists bring up claims too. "There is no God." Burden of proof. Prove that there is no God, because obviously you made a claim and you need to prove it, or at least provide credible evidence.

Claiming a god doesn't exist requires that it was a proven concept in the first place. Your statement is akin to asking me to disprove the existence of flying pigs and the tooth fairy.

If you don't believe in God, obviously you're making a claim that you have knowledge that there is an absolute value of no God. You need to back up that claim. It's a cop out to say "well I don't believe it, but I don't need to prove it. Everyone's just supposed to know my beliefs and serve me."

I don't see why I should be required to disprove the existence of a character appearing in a 2000-year-old storybook.

If you didn't realize it, you guys are what evilbible.com and other sources call you...evangelical atheists. They're loud and evangelizing about their beliefs just as much as Christians and other religions do. Obviously you have to have a burden of proof if you're loud about how something doesn't exist.

What you are speaking of are anti-theists. We are not anti-theists. We are atheists. Get your terms straight.

Now some will bring up the argument "Atheism means we lack belief in a God, not that we believe that there's no God. Thus the burden of proof is on you." It's the same thing! If you lack belief in a claim, you're making a claim yourself saying "I lack belief, therefore I don't believe."

Also, I am quite entertained that Atheists (well, my good friend who is an atheist anyways) claims that Atheists are one of the most tolerant groups out there. By this thread, I'd beg to differ. It's more along the lines of trolls. You ask for Christians to have meaningful debates, and yet you flame. You need to preach that to yourself before you preach that to me. And atheists call Christians hypocritical. xD

When you demonstrate zero knowledge on a subject, we correct you. When you continue to parade your own ignorance we get frustrated. The only person trolling anyone here is you. You have consistently demonstrated that you are anti-science, and the only reason you do not realize this yourself is because you don't even know the meaning of the word; this despite multiple corrections by myself and others. Normal people would have re-evaluated their arguments after my first response. You are an evangelical Christian, I have no doubt at this point, and your refusal to acknowledge the numerous holes in your argument speaks volumes of your lack of knowledge and skill in the areas of science, debate, and even philosophy I would say. If you continue this line of argument you have chosen to pursue then I kindly advise you quit while you're ahead.

[Sal1981]

Yo.

[the_antithesis]

Also, I am quite entertained that Atheists claims that Atheists are one of the most tolerant groups out there.

What idiot told you that?