You must love me or else

[Soul]

Unfortunately, christians "forget" that the biblical prophecy states Jesus will be unattractive: "no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him" (Isaiah 53:2).

Or, Isaiah wasn't prophesying that the Messiah would be ugly (53:2). I have yet to hear from you, or anyone else who shares that interpretation, the purpose for such a prophecy. And, Jesus explained the meaning of Is. 53:2. See below.

He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. — Isaiah 53:2

My children, in this verse My servant Isaiah spoke of the wonderful illumination given to those who were Spirit-guided.

To those who know Me not, there is in Me nothing to appeal to them, or to attract them.

To those who know Me there is nothing more to be desired. "No beauty they could desire Him."

Oh! My children, draw very near to Me. See Me as I really am, that ever you may have the Joy of finding in Me all you could desire. The fulfillment of all you could desire in Master, Lord, or Friend. (God Calling)

The gospels [...] are silent on his appearance.

Correct, but those details aren't unknown. Maria Valtorta has observed Jesus's physical appearance on multiple occasions, at times through visions of scenes from His mortal life, and when He would appear to her. Below are excerpt descriptions of Him:

And I got lost contemplating His face and observing the smallest details. And I shall repeat them for you once more. His hair parted in the middle of His head and falling in long locks down to His shoulders. Wavy for a full palm's-length, then ending in a real curl. Shiny, thin, neatly combed, bright blond, with marked coppery tones especially in the final curl. A very high, beautiful forehead, as smooth as a sash, with slightly hollowed temples on which the pale blue veins leave light indigo shadows appearing under the very white skin, with that special whiteness of certain individuals with reddish blond hair: a milky whiteness with a gradation slightly tending towards ivory, but with a very light touch of blue, quite delicate skin resembling the petal of a white camelia, so thin that the slightest vein shows through and so sensitive that every emotion is depicted on it, with more intense paleness and brighter blushes.

But I have always seen Jesus as pale, only a little tanned by the sun, which He liberally assimilated during His three-year passage through Palestine.

A long, straight nose, with just a bit of a curve above, near His eyes—a very handsome, thin, well-shaped nose. Deep-set, very beautiful eyes, of the color I have so often described as very dark sapphire. Thick eyebrows and eyelashes, but not excessively so—long, beautiful, shiny, dark brown, but with a microscopic spark of gold at the summit of each hair. An even, smallish mouth, well-shaped, closely resembling His Mother's, with lips just thick enough, neither too thin, so as to appear serpentine, nor too pronounced. In the center they are rounded and accentuated in a fine curve, and at the sides they disappear, making the very beautiful mouth seem to diminish out of sight, with its healthy red opening over even, vigorous teeth which are rather long and very white.

Thin, but not gaunt, cheeks. A very narrow, long oval, but quite beautiful, with cheekbones which neither protrude nor recede excessively His beard, thick on His chin and dividing into two curly points, surrounds, but does not cover, His mouth as far as the lower lip and rises, shorter and shorter, towards His cheeks, where, at the level of the corners of His mouth, it becomes very short, limited to leaving a shadow, like a smattering of copper, on the paleness of His cheeks. Where it is thick, the beard is a dark copper color, a dark reddish blond. And so is His mustache, not very thick and kept short, so that it barely covers His upper lip between His nose and the lip and is reduced at the corners of His mouth. Small, well-shaped ears closely joined to His head. They do not protrude at all. (The Notebooks: 1943)

Jesus is never sullen, not even when He is more disgusted with something that has happened, but is always majestically dignified and communicates such supernatural dignity to the place in which He moves. Jesus is never a jolly fellow or a complainer laughing coarsely or looking hypochondriac, not even in the moments of greatest delight or deepest depression. His smile is inimitable. No painter will ever be able to reproduce it. It is like a light emanating from His heart, a bright light in the hours of greatest joy because a soul has been redeemed or approaches Perfection: I would say a rosy smile, when He approves of the spontaneous deeds of His friends or disciples and enjoys their company; a blue angelical smile, to remain in the field of hues, when He bends over children to listen to them, teach them and then bless them; a smile mitigated by piety when He looks at the miseries of the flesh or the spirit; finally a divine smile, when He speaks of His Father or Mother, or looks at or listens to His Most Pure Mother.

I have never seen Him hypochondriac, not even in the hours of bitter torment. During the torture of being betrayed, during the anguish when He sweated blood, and the spasm of His passion, if melancholy overwhelmed the sweet refulgence of His smile, it was not sufficient to cancel the peace, which is like a diadem shining with heavenly gems on His smooth forehead and enlightening His divine person. Neither have I ever seen Him indulge in immoderate merriment. He is not averse to a hearty laugh, when the case demands it, but He immediately resumes His noble serenity. But when He laughs, He prodigiously looks younger, to the extent of looking like a twenty year old man and the world seems to blossom through His lovely, hearty, loud, melodious laughter. Neither can I say that I have seen Him do things hurriedly. Whether He moves or speaks, He does so calmly, without, however, being sluggish or listless. It is probably because, tall as He is, He can stride, without running, to go a long way and He can likewise reach at distant things without having to stand up to do so. Even the way He moves is certainly gentlemanly and majestic.

And what about His voice? Well: I have heard Him speak for almost two years, and yet at times I lose the thread of His speech as I become so engrossed in studying His voice. And Jesus, very kindly and patiently, repeats what He said and He looks at me with His smile of the good Master to ensure that nothing is missing in His dictation because of my delight in enjoying and listening to His voice and studying its tone and charm. But after two years I am not in a position to say precisely what the tone is. I definitely exclude the bass tone and also the light tenor tone. But I am always doubtful whether it is a powerful tenor voice or a perfect baritone voice with a very wide vocal range. I would say that it is the latter because His voice at times takes bronze-like notes, mellow and so deep, particularly when He speaks to a sinner, to lead him back to Grace or He points out human deviations to crowds. But when He analyses or condemns forbidden things or He shows the hypocrisy of men, the bronze notes of His voices become clearer; and they are as sharp as the peal of thunder when He imposes the Truth or His will and they vibrate like a sheet of gold struck with a crystal hammer when He sings the praises of Mercy or exalts the work of God; but the timbre of His voice is a most loving one when He speaks to or about His Mother. Jesus' voice is then really imbued with love: the reverent love of a son, and the love of God Who praises His most perfect work. And He uses the same tone, although not so strongly, when speaking to His favourites, to converts and to children. And His voice never tires, not even in very long speeches, because it colours and completes His thoughts and words, emphasising their power or kindness, according to the case. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 2)

As they often do while walking, perhaps to alleviate the monotony of their continuous travelling with this distraction, the apostles speak to one another recapitulating and commenting on the latest events, questioning now and again the Master, Who in general speaks very little, just not to be unkind, making such effort only when it is the case of teaching the crowds or His apostles, or correcting wrong ideas, or comforting unhappy people.

Jesus was the « Word », but He certainly was not a « chatterbox »! As patient and kind as nobody else, He never appeared to be bored when He had to repeat a concept once, twice, ten times, a hundred times to make it enter the heads hardened by pharisaical and rabbinical precepts, neglecting His own tiredness, at times so exhausting as to be painful, in order to relieve the moral or physical suffering of a person. But it is clear that He prefers to be silent, keeping aloof in quiet meditation which may last for many hours, if He is not distracted by someone questioning Him. He generally walks ahead of His apostles, with His head slightly bent, raising it now and again to look at the sky, the country, people, animals. I said to look. But that is wrong. I must say: to love. Because it is a smile, God's smile that from His eyes pours forth to caress the world and creatures: a love-smile. Because it is love that shines forth, spreads, blesses and purifies the light of His eyes, which are so bright, most bright, when He comes out of intense concentration.

What are His concentrations like? I think—and I am sure that I am not mistaken, because it is enough to watch His countenance to see what they are—I think that they are much more than our ecstasies in which a human creature already lives in Heaven. They are the « sensible reunion of God with God ». Divinity is always present and united to the Christ, Who is God like the Father. On the Earth as in Heaven the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father, They love each other and by loving each other They generate the Third Person. The power of the Father is the generation of the Son and the act of generating and being generated creates the Fire, that is, the Spirit of the Spirit of God. The Power turns to the Wisdom Whom It generated and Who turns to the Power in the joy of being One for the Other and of knowing each other for what They are. And since all good reciprocal knowledge creates love—even our imperfect knowledge does—there is the Holy Spirit... There is the One Who, if it were possible to add perfection to divine perfections, ought to be called the Perfection of Perfection. The Holy Spirit! The simple thought of Him fills one with light, joy, peace...

In the ecstasies of the Christ, when the incomprehensible mystery of the Unity and Trinity of God was renewed in the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, what complete perfect, bright, sanctifying, joyful, peaceful production of love must have been engendered and must have spread like heat from a blazing furnace, like incense from a burning thurible, to kiss with the kiss of God the things created by the Father, made by means of the Son-Word, made for the Love, for the only Love, because all the operations of God are Love? And that is the look of the Man-God when as Man and as God He raises His eyes, which have contemplated in Himself the Father, Himself and the Love, to look at the Universe, admiring the creative power of God, as Man; rejoicing, as God, at being able to save it in the royal creatures of such creation: men.

Oh! no one can, no one will ever be able, neither poet, nor artist, nor painter, to make visible to the crowds that look of Jesus, when He comes off the embrace, from the sensible reunion with the Divinity, always united to the Man hypostatically, but not always so deeply sensible to the Man, Who was the Redeemer and Who thus, to His many sorrows, to His many annihilations had to add this one, this very deep grief, of no longer being always able to be in the Father, in the great vortex of the Love, as He was in Heaven: almighty... free... joyful. Wonderful is the power of His look in regard to miracles, most kind is the expression of His eyes as man, very sad the light of sorrow in the hours of grief... But they are still human, although perfect in expression. This look of God, Who has contemplated and loved Himself in the Triniform Unity is beyond comparison, there is no adjective for it... And the soul prostrates itself before Him, worshipping, having become a mere « nonentity » in the knowledge of God, but blessed in contemplating His infinite love. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 4)

Below is a drawing of Jesus by sculptor and painter, Prof. Lorenzo Ferri, based on Maria Valtorta's writings, and with her guidance:

[...] born somewhere in Judea. The perfect word of god can't even get the town straight with all that fictional Bethlehem census nonsense.

Where did you read that Jesus was born "somewhere" in Judea? The Evangelist, Matthew, mentioned precisely where: "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea" (2:1) and "Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he [King Herod] asked them where the Christ would be born. They said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea [...]" (2:4-5).

Additionally, on June 4th, 1944, Maria Valtorta received from Jesus a vision of the Gospel scene regarding the census edict, and you can read her descriptions of it in The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 1 (cf. Lk. 2:1-5). Below is an excerpt:

Joseph comes in. He seems to be coming from the village, because he comes in through the main door, not from the workshop. Mary lifts Her head and smiles at him. Also Joseph smiles. But his smile seems to be a forced one, as if he were worried. Mary looks at him inquisitively. She then gets up to take the mantle that Joseph is taking off and She folds it and lays it on a chest.

Joseph sits at the table. He rests one elbow on it and lays his head on one hand, while with the other hand, absentmindedly, he combs and ruffles his beard with alternate strokes.

« Is there anything worrying you? » asks Mary. « Can I help you? »

« You always comfort me, Mary. But this time, I have a big problem. . . that concerns You. »

« Me, Joseph. And what is it? »

« They have posted an edict on the synagogue door. It orders the census of all Palestinians. And everybody must go and register in his place of origin. We must go to Bethlehem. . .  »

« Oh! » exclaims Mary, interrupting him and putting one hand on Her bosom.

« It's a shock, isn't it? And a sad one. I know »

« No, Joseph. That's not it. I am thinking. . . I am thinking of the Holy Scriptures: Rachel, Benjamin's mother and Jacob's wife of whom the Star will be born: the Saviour. Rachel buried in Bethlehem, of which it is said: "But you, Bethlehem, Ephrathah, the least of the clans of Judah, out of you will be born the Ruler." The Ruler who was promised to the House of David. He will be born there. . . »

« Do You. . . do You think it is already the time?. . . Oh! What shall we do? » Joseph is completely dismayed. He looks at Mary with two pitiful eyes.

She realises this and smiles. But She smiles more at Herself than at him. A smile that seems to say: « He is a man, a just man, but a man. And he sees as a man. He thinks as a man. Have pity on him, o soul of Mine, and guide him so that he may see as a spirit. » But Her kindness induces Her to reassure him. She is not untruthful. She simply diverts his anxiety. « I do not know, Joseph. My time is very close. But could the Lord not delay it to relieve you from this worry? He can do everything. Don't fear. »

« But the journey! . . . Think of the crowds. Will we find good lodgings? Will we be in time to come back? And if. . . if You are to become a Mother there, what will we do? We have no home there. . . We do not know anybody any longer. »

« Don't be afraid. Everything will be all right. God finds a shelter for the animal about to give birth. Do you think He will not find one for His Messiah? We trust in Him, don't we? We always trust in Him. The harder the trial, the more we trust. Like two children we put our hands in His fatherly ones. He is our guide. We rely entirely on Him. Consider how He has led us with love so far. A father, even the best of fathers, could not do it with greater care. We are His children and His servants. We fulfill His will. No harm can befall us. Also this edict is His will. What is Caesar after all? An instrument in the hands of God. Since the time when the Father decided to forgive man, He pre-arranged the events so that His Christ may be born in Bethlehem. Bethlehem, the smallest town in Judah did not yet exist and its glory was already destined. And there. . . a powerful man has risen, very far from here, and he conquered us, and now he wants to know all his subjects, now, while the world is in peace. . . so that the glory of Bethlehem may be accomplished and the word of God may not be belied, - as it would be if the Messiah were to be born elsewhere. Oh! What is our small trouble if we consider the beauty of this moment of peace? Just think, Joseph: a period of time when there is no hatred in the world! Can there be a happier hour for the rising of the "Star", the light of which is divine and its influence is redemption? Oh! Do not be afraid, Joseph. If the roads are not safe, if the crowds will make the journey a difficult one, the angels will defend and protect us. Not us: but their King. If we find no accommodation, their wings will be our tents. No mishap will befall us. It cannot: God is with us. »

Joseph looks at Her and listens to Her, happy. The wrinkles on his forehead smooth away. He gets up, no longer tired or worried. He smiles. « You are blessed, Sun of my soul! You are blessed, because You see everything through the Grace, of which You are full! Don't let us waste time, then. Because we must leave as soon as possible, and come back as soon as possible, because everything is ready here for the. . . for the. . . »

« For our Son, Joseph. He must be such in the eyes of the world, remember that. The Father has covered His coming with the veil of mystery and we must not lift that veil. Jesus will do it, when the time comes. . . »

The beauty of Mary's face, look, expression and voice, when She says this « Jesus » cannot be described. It is already an ecstasy. And the vision ends on it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Speed scrolling, ftw.

[Cassia]

Instead of relying on mystics, I prefer the conclusions of the majority of secular biblical scholars and historians with advanced degrees who hold the view that the census described in the Gospel is a literary device and not a historical event. The account is considered historically problematic because it appears to have been fabricated to get Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem to fulfill prophecy.
This consensus is based on several factors:

Contradictory dates: The Gospel of Luke dates Jesus's birth to the reign of Herod the Great (who died in 4 B.C.E.) but also links it to a census carried out by Quirinius. The census under Quirinius is a documented historical event, but it occurred in 6 C.E.—a full decade after Herod's death.

Roman census practice: Roman censuses for tax purposes counted people where they lived, not their ancestral hometowns. Forcing subjects to travel long distances to an ancestral city would have been administratively chaotic, economically disruptive, and served no logical Roman purpose.

Conflicting gospel accounts: The Gospel of Matthew has Jesus's family already living in Bethlehem when he was born, and it uses other plot devices to explain the move to Nazareth later. The conflicting birth narratives of Matthew and Luke are imposible to reconcile.

Theological motivation: Luke's gospel uses the census to temporarily move Joseph and Mary from their home in Nazareth to Bethlehem. Secular scholars argue this was done to align with the prophecy in Micah 5:2, which states the messiah will come from Bethlehem.

------------------------------------------------------------

That painting is obviously a repro of the faked shroud and not at all like the earliest depictions from artists who were closest to the time period and oral tradition. And that is not skin of "alabaster", lol. So, Maria was back-tracking on what her angels told her as she started to realize her mistake.

A 3D analysis comparing the way fabric falls on a human body versus a low-relief sculpture shows that the Shroud of Turin was not based on a real person. The error is that a real body would have caused a distorted imprint known as the "Agamemnon Mask Effect.

Studying the fabric also revealed that the textile has a complex structure that would have required a sufficiently advanced loom, i.e. a horizontal treadle loom with four shafts, introduced by the Flemish in the 13th century, while the archaeological record provides clear evidence that the Shroud is completely different from all the cloths woven in ancient Palestine.
That would also agree with the carbon dating conclusion that cloth of the Shroud can be assigned with a confidence of 95 percent accuracy to a date between AD 1260 and 1390.

As usual, zero evidence support Maria's or any supernatural "revelation" but much evidence discounts it. However, we all know that doesn't matter to cultists.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

There are three kinds of lies, 'straight out lies', 'damned lies', and the fucking Bible.

[Cassia]

There are three kinds of lies, 'straight out lies', 'damned lies', and the fucking Bible.

A lot of people always getting money and status for nothing. Unless you consider false comfort being worth something. They sell the carrot/stick moral framework that disregards altruism as being the real goal to advance ourselves in favor of servitude. Of course, they are willing to put 100% of their efforts into lies and deception, including the manufacture of false evidence, yet they automatically dismiss every other religion with the wave of a hand. They worship an ever-evolving god whose story sanctions slavery, war, genocide, racism, sexism, torture and human sacrifice.

[Soul]

Instead of relying on mystics, I prefer the conclusions of the majority of secular biblical scholars and historians with advanced degrees who hold the view that the census described in the Gospel is a literary device and not a historical event. The account is considered historically problematic because it appears to have been fabricated to get Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem to fulfill prophecy. [Note: this is an AI overview on Google.]
This consensus is based on several factors:

Contradictory dates: The Gospel of Luke dates Jesus's birth to the reign of Herod the Great (who died in 4 B.C.E.) but also links it to a census carried out by Quirinius. The census under Quirinius is a documented historical event, but it occurred in 6 C.E.—a full decade after Herod's death. [Note: this is an AI overview on Google.]

Roman census practice: Roman censuses for tax purposes counted people where they lived, not their ancestral hometowns. Forcing subjects to travel long distances to an ancestral city would have been administratively chaotic, economically disruptive, and served no logical Roman purpose. [Note: this is an AI overview on Google.]

Conflicting gospel accounts: The Gospel of Matthew has Jesus's family already living in Bethlehem when he was born, and it uses other plot devices to explain the move to Nazareth later. The conflicting birth narratives of Matthew and Luke are imposible to reconcile. [Note: this is an AI overview on Google.]

Theological motivation: Luke's gospel uses the census to temporarily move Joseph and Mary from their home in Nazareth to Bethlehem. Secular scholars argue this was done to align with the prophecy in Micah 5:2, which states the messiah will come from Bethlehem. [Note: this is an AI overview on Google.]

Firstly, do you have the names of the supposed "majority of secular biblical scholars and historians with advanced degrees"? Can you cite their analyses and conclusions. Or, is AI your source?

Secondly, on January 8th, 1945, Maria Valtorta received a vision of a scene from Jesus's life, and at one point in it, she saw and heard Him explain the night of His birth to the apostles Simon and John. Below is an excerpt:

...as the Mother was near Her time to have Her Child, a decree was issued by the imperial delegate Publius Sulpicius Quirinus on instructions from Caesar Augustus, when [Gaius] Sentius Saturninus was governor of Palestine (c. Lk. 2:1-2). The decree stated that a census had to be taken of all the people of the Empire. Those who were not slaves were to go to their places of origin (c. Lk. 2:3), and register in the official rolls of the Empire. Joseph, the spouse of the Mother, was of the line of David and the Mother was also of David's line. In compliance with the decree, they left Nazareth and came to Bethlehem, the cradle of the royal family. The weather was severe...» Jesus continues the story and it all ends thus. (c. Lk. 2:4-5). (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 1)

This is suppprted by the following:

[W. M.]Ramsay, however, on the basis of two inscriptions concludes that Quirinius did exercise a governorship of Syria about 8-6 B.C.33 He suggests that both Quirinius and Sentius Saturninus (9-6 B.C.) were governors for Augustus in Syria at the same time with different duties.34 Quirinius would have commanded the legions and military resources of Syria, while Sentius attended to politics.

Stauffer suggests that during this general time Quirinius was in charge of all campaigns and other affairs in the east.35 In Syria he sometimes governed alone and sometimes aided by an imperial provincial governor. Says Stauffer:

'It is evident that this division of power was in the nature of things, and Sulpicius Quirinius must be reckoned not only among the series of Syrian provincial governors, but also—and this chiefly—in the proud list of the Roman commanders-in-chief of the Orient. In this capacity he governed the Roman Orient like a vice-emperor from 12 B.C. to A.D. 16, with only a brief interruption (Gaius Caesar). In this capacity he carried out the prima descript in the East. Thus, he was in a position to begin the work of the census in the days of King Herod, to continue it without regard to the temporary occupancy or vacancy of the post of Syrian governor, and finally to bring it to a peaceful conclusion.'36

There is some support from the statement of Tertullian that "at this very time a census had been taken in Judea by Sentius Saturninus which might have satisfied their inquiry respecting the family and descent of Christ."37 Instead of being a mistake on Tertulliano part, it may indicate that Quirinius and Saturninus were governing Syria at the same time.

33Ramsay, Bearing 292-300.
34Ibid., p. 293.
35E. Stauffer, Jesus and His Story (New York: Knopf, 1960) 29.
36Ibid., p. 30.
37Tertullian Adv. Marc. 4.19.

(The Census and Quirinius: Luke 2:2)

Thirdly, on January 28th, 1944, Maria Valtorta received a vision of a scene from Jesus's mortal life, specifically a conversation between Him and Rabbi Hillel. Below is an excerpt:

Jesus: It is true that Caesar dominates us, but the world and Palestine were in such peace when the seventy weeks expired (c. Dan. 9:24-27), that it was possible for Caesar to order the census in his dominions. Had there been wars in the Empire and riots in Palestine, he would not have been able to do so. As that time was completed, so the other period of sixty-two weeks plus one from the completion of the Temple is also being completed, so that the Messiah may be anointed and the remainder of the prophecy may come true for the people who did not want Him. Can you doubt that? Do you not remember the star that was seen by the Wise Men from the East and stopped over the sky in Bethlehem of Judah and that the prophecies and the visions, from Jacob onwards, indicate that place as the one destined as the birthplace of the Messiah, son of the son of Jacob's son, through David who was from Bethlehem? Do you not remember Balaam? "A Star will be born of Jacob". The Wise Men from the East, whose purity and faith opened their eyes and ears, saw the Star and understood its Name: "Messiah", and they came to worship the Light which had descended into the world. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 1)

Joseph and Mary left their home in Nazareth to go to Bethlehem to register (c. Lk. 2:4-5). When they arrived at Bethlehem, there was no room at any inn, but they found an animal stall just outside the town, where Mary gave birth to Jesus, and laid Him in a manger (c. Mic.5:2, Matt. 2:1, Lk. 2:6-7;11). An angel announced to shepherds in a nearby field the birth of the Incarnation of God, the Messiah, and told them they would find Him in Bethlehem in a manger. And, they did (c. Lk. 2:8-12;16).

As for the Wise Men, by the time they arrived at Bethlehem after seeing the Star and beginning their journey there, almost a year had passed since Jesus's birth, and he, Joseph, and Mary were now living in a house within the town of Bethlehem (c. Matt. 2:2;8-9;11), no longer in an animal stall just outside of it. According to Maria Valtorta, who received visions of scenes of Jesus's early life, on the night of the adoration of the shepherds, one of the shepherds, Elias, invited Joseph, Mary, and Jesus to live with him and his wife, Anne, in Bethlehem. And, that is the house where they were visited by the Wise Men, and continued to live until their flight to Egypt, remaining there until King Herod the Great's death, to which they then returned to their home in Nazareth (c. Hos. 11:1, Is. 11:1, Jer. 31:15, Matt. 2:13-15;19-20;23, The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 1).

Fourthly, following Josephus' texts, most historians place Herod's death in 4 B.C. Jean Aulagnier, in his book The Diary of Jesus, pointed out that a small adding mistake was originally made and was repeated by everybody else. And, Prof. Van Zandt wrote (using the Gregorian calendar), "The astronomy of the Valtorta account places Jesus' birth in December, —0001 [1 B.C.], the death of Herod in the spring of 0002 [2 AD], and Good Friday on April 21, 0034 [34 AD].

That painting is obviously a repro of the faked shroud [baseless assertion] and not at all like the earliest depictions from artists who were closest to the time period and oral tradition. And that is not skin of "alabaster", lol. So, Maria was back-tracking on what her angels told her as she started to realize her mistake [baseless assertion].

What good are baseless assertions?

As usual, zero evidence support Maria's or any supernatural "revelation" [baseless assertion] [...]

But, that's false, because there's the astronomical and meteorological analysis by Prof. Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro of Maria Valtorta's Work, and their findings:

Maria Valtorta's narration seems to be not a fruit of her fantasy. In fact, thanks to a complex and rigorous astronomical analysis of the narrative elements present in her writings, it has been possible to determine a precise chronology of every event of Jesus' life that she tells us, even if no explicit calendar date is reported in her writings.

It seems that she has written down observations and facts really happened at the time of Jesus' life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge.

...and the analysis and findings by Prof. Leo A. Brodeur, M.A., Lèsl., Ph.D., H.Sc.D:

[For those who state] that Valtorta's writings were not supernatural in origin, did they investigate to see what kind of person Valtorta was? Had they done so, they would have quickly found that she was a good, earnest, devout Catholic, an invalid who had a deep prayer life and lived according to high moral standards. They would have found that she often claimed, explicitly, in no uncertain terms that she was having visions and dictations from Jesus and other heavenly persons, and that she fully realized the gravity of her claims.

Now had her visions and dictations been mere literary forms of her own deliberate invention, she would have been an unscrupulous liar; but this hypothesis is excluded by the testimonies of all the priests and nuns and lay people who knew her.

Or what if Valtorta had been insane and had imagined all those visions and dictations and mistaken them for real mystical occurrences (and thus escaped the accusation of being a hoaxer)? This hypothesis of lunacy falls flat in the light of her daily living during the years that she wrote.

...and the analysis and findings by historian Jean Aulagnier:

Therefore, there is no explanation for the archeological and geographical accuracy of her writings except an intervention from the beyond. These factors exclude the possibility of a hoax or a mental disorder.

There is no way that Maria Valtorta could have composed thousands of pages of fiction that would be so historically accurate.

...and the analysis and findings by theologian David J. Webster, who observed, for example, that Maria Valtorta named at least nine unknown ancient towns and villages that were not discovered until after her death.

You haven't presented anything that refutes those findings.

A 3D analysis comparing the way fabric falls on a human body versus a low-relief sculpture shows that the Shroud of Turin was not based on a real person. The error is that a real body would have caused a distorted imprint known as the "Agamemnon Mask Effect". [excerpt from https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/shroud-of-turin-wasnt-laid-on-jesus-body-but-rather-a-sculpture-modeling-study-suggests]

Studying the fabric also revealed that the textile has a complex structure that would have required a sufficiently advanced loom, i.e. a horizontal treadle loom with four shafts, introduced by the Flemish in the 13th century, while the archaeological record provides clear evidence that the Shroud is completely different from all the cloths woven in ancient Palestine. That would also agree with the carbon dating conclusion that cloth of the Shroud can be assigned with a confidence of 95 percent accuracy to a date between AD 1260 and 1390. [excerpt from https://michaelshermer.substack.com/p/the-shroud-of-turin]

Firstly, your own source, Moraes, said, "I don't know how the image was printed or transferred", regarding the Shroud of Turin (August 2025 article in Artnet News).

Secondly, the "Agamemnon Mask Effect" fails to consider existing scientific findings, ignores evidence such as the absence of paint, the presence of blood patterns predating the image, and the lack of pigments.

Thirdly, "The linen cloth of the Shroud of Turin does not display any weaving or sewing techniques which would speak against its origin as a high quality product of the textile workers of the first century" (Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, Interview with Mechthild Flury-Lemberg). And, "In my opinion the Shroud is not a medieval fake. The parallels I have found indicate that it could have existed at the same time as Jesus Christ and in what is now Israel".  Whilst the Masada stitch is strong evidence for a first century cloth, the side strip in itself points to a practical purpose so why would a medieval artist cut this from the same cloth and then sew it back on? That doesn't make any sense, nor does the decision to sew it using an ancient Jewish stitch unknown in medieval Europe. Schwalbe and Rogers studied the side strip using X Ray analysis and found that it had indeed been cut from the same cloth (Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, see Physics and Chemistry of the Shroud of Turin pp 39-40).

Fourthly, the book entitled The Holy Shroud and the Visions of Maria Valtorta is a scholarly work written by a Shroud of Turin expert which describes the detailed findings on the miraculous Shroud of Turin by modern scientific studies and its exact agreement with the visions of Christ's Passion, Death, and Burial in the writings of Maria Valtorta.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Gee, our very own red letter Babble.

[Cassia]

Gee, our very own red letter Babble.

Yeah, I was waiting for all the nonsense. She worked really hard on all that apologetics. People whose "science books" talk about unicorns and dragons, or a person survived in the belly of a whale and then a world-wide flood killed everyone and everything but one incestuous family. People who fake stigmata with never-healing acid and who protect pedophiles.

They even award themselves fake degrees from fake universities that try to mirror real academia. However, if she thinks any of this utter nonsense will ever sway a thinking person for a minute, she is badly mistaken.

Somehow, we can validate thousands of ancient artifacts way older than the 1st century but with "the shroud" we have all sorts of issues. Cultists have been selling books and other merch to other cultists for decades. I think I need to order some "holy water". So stupid.

Actually, I do use google. It's amazing this satanic google conspiracy, because the scientific consensus is that there is overwhelming of proof for Maria's visions and Jesus and god and dead people rising up and faith healing. It's all there, we just need to believe hard enough. What is wrong with me? Satan, go away! It's all your fault.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I sat with a neighbor kid once, in the hay loft of an abandoned barn. He asked me to keep him company "for a little while". Then he cut his wrists. We waited. His last words were "Don't let Father Murphy fuck my corpse." I burned the barn after he died. Kept my promise, Murphy didn't get an more little boy booty from him.

[Cassia]

I would love to see Soul prove that Mohammad was not the true profit or even better discredit Key Islamic mystics including Rumi, Ibn 'Arabi, Al-Ghazali, and Shams of Tabriz, who are celebrated for their poetry, philosophical contributions, and extensive writings on mystical thought and divine love. Then maybe she would actually learn something valuable.

I do feel sorry that Soul will be going to Islamic hell. Poor thing.

[Cassia]

I sat with a neighbor kid once, in the hay loft of an abandoned barn. He asked me to keep him company "for a little while". Then he cut his wrists. We waited. His last words were "Don't let Father Murphy fuck my corpse." I burned the barn after he died. Kept my promise, Murphy didn't get an more little boy booty from him.

You would think Jesus, through Maria and her angel might have warned 1030s Italy not to join in on the evil, losing, fascist team. Over 450,000 Italians went home to Jesus before their time, including 17% of all Italian god's chosen Jews, who were deported to death camps starting in September 1943. 

[Soul]

Yeah, I was waiting for all the nonsense. She worked really hard on all that apologetics.

And, you didn't address any of it.

Actually, I do use google. It's amazing this satanic google conspiracy, because the scientific consensus is that there is overwhelming of proof for Maria's visions and Jesus and god and dead people rising up and faith healing. It's all there, we just need to believe hard enough. What is wrong with me? Satan, go away! It's all your fault.

As we know, there's truths and falsehoods. But everything still comes down to faith and free will, because, for example, there's people who reject the truth of x, despite the authentic evidence and proof for it, and they rationalize, and are unreceptive, because using their free will, they'd rather believe something else.

If a person only seeks validation for what they'd rather believe, instead of the truth, and is willfuly unreceptive to what is said to be the truth, then what good would authentic proof in support of the truth do them?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"But everything still comes down to faith and free will, " Bullshit.

[Cassia]

And, you didn't address any of it.

As we know, there's truths and falsehoods. But everything still comes down to faith and free will, because, for example, there's people who reject the truth of x, despite the authentic evidence and proof for it, and they rationalize, and are unreceptive, because using their free will, they'd rather believe something else.

If a person only seeks validation for what they'd rather believe, instead of the truth, and is willfuly unreceptive to what is said to be the truth, then what good would authentic proof in support of the truth do them?

Conversely, you do not seem to be receptive to any of the major Islamic mystics for some reason. Any religious claim that you can make; a Muslim can as well. Truly, I say unto you, open your heart to Mohammad, He is The Light and The Way. Most of the time your specific belief system has everything to do with childhood indoctrination or perhaps just that Christianity is predominant religion of your region.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As a former engineer I saw scientific claims working every day in the lab. I see jets flying overhead and right now electrical current is providing the force to spin my clothes dryer. I'm typing on a computer that is the culmination of dozens of important scientific theories that have proven predictive power.

If you fall seriously injured, you will not be asking the ambulance to take you to a church where the power of prayer will heal you. You will never see corpses rising from the ground or see prayer moving mountains as claimed in the perfect scriptures. People in ultra-religious Mississippi or Iran where praying abounds don't seem to be nearly as fulfilled as the mostly atheist regions of Scandinavia. Why is that?

What I like about you is that at least you went for validation beyond the typical and you are willing to reject at least some church dogma.

The best outcome for me would be complete scientific proof of some sort of origin that didn't require twisted immoral logic to explain our brutal natural world. If a sentient being is responsible, there would some real explaining to do way beyond the feeble allegorical attempts of some iron-age tribes

[Soul]

Maria Valtorta's God-Authored Works:

• The Poem of the Man-God: Vols. 1-5 (the Life of Christ) also known as The Gospel as Revealed to Me: Vols. 1-10

• The Notebooks: 1943

• The Notebooks: 1944

• The Notebooks: 1945-1950

• The Little Notebooks

(I'm working on uploading this online for free)

• The Book of Azariah

• Lessons on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans

Also, I highly recommend reading A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta's Extraordinary Work, especially the chapters on proof in support of the Works above having a supernatural origin. You should also read these testimonies by people who have read Maria Valtorta's God-Authored writings.