Marxism 101: Socialism and Communism

[Hydra009]

Capitalism is inherently unequal(owners v wage workers) and is sustained with massive amounts of violence.  Communism is the converse of that.

Violence is just when it is used to eliminate injustice and attain justice--which is fairness, equality.

The ends justify the means, huh?  That's an awfully dark path to go down and that path might not take you where you think it does.

Power does not yield without a demand.   That demand, therefore, usually involves violence.

I noticed a usually there, seemingly conceding that violence is often not necessary.  In fact, it's fairly routine for policy changes to be undertaken without the slightest drop of blood being spilled.  You really ought to look into that.  It might save you a lot of trouble in the future.

That is why socialists/communists are just in neutralizing or killing fascists, because fascists represent injustice and inequality sustained thru violence.

At the time, they had unwisely declared war with a ton of countries and created death camps in the countries they occupied, so stopping them with violence was simply self-defense.

Since the end of the great patriotic war and the subsequent decline of fascism, it's a lot less justifiable.  It smacks of criminalizing attitudes rather than behaviors.  And your bizarre conflation between capitalist and fascist makes this quote even more disquieting.

[Baruch]

Well, there's never actually been a communist society in modern times, they've all been or are socialist.  Your 2nd pic describes dog eat dog capitalism perfectly.  But, I get it, you love yerself some capitalism--as long as you dont have to do the work. ;)  You really dont have to be on this thread, just a hint, ;)

Communism (fictionally) only existed in the Messianic Jewish community, before 70 CE.  See the Book of Acts.  This is where everyone, including Marx, stole the idea of equalitarian society (as opposed to egalitarian society).

[Hydra009]

Can you give some examples?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#Intelligentsia

"In the 1920s and 1930s, 2,000 writers, intellectuals, and artists were imprisoned and 1,500 died in prisons and concentration camps. After sunspot development research was judged un-Marxist, twenty-seven astronomers disappeared between 1936 and 1938. The Meteorological Office was violently purged as early as 1933 for failing to predict weather harmful to the crops. But the toll was especially high among writers. Those who perished during the Great Purge include:"

I cut it off there because the rest of the section is just a long list of intellectuals accused of alleged subversive activities, some of which probably involve cursing the soil or casting a magic spell to make their torturer hurt them against their torturer's will.

[Baruch]

Hmm, thanks, I did not know these things, specifically.  Well, it makes sense and it is always interesting when a certain small group of people decide they want to dictate the rest of the world--and there are many such small enclaves.  What's amazing is that they are able to maintain this vast illusion of religious power in the context of the actuality of no God.  Such is power.  Money, like God, is a similar illusory control tactic.

Emperor Constantine would agree with you.

[Baruch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#Intelligentsia

"In the 1920s and 1930s, 2,000 writers, intellectuals, and artists were imprisoned and 1,500 died in prisons and concentration camps. After sunspot development research was judged un-Marxist, twenty-seven astronomers disappeared between 1936 and 1938. The Meteorological Office was violently purged as early as 1933 for failing to predict weather harmful to the crops. But the toll was especially high among writers. Those who perished during the Great Purge include:"

I cut it off there because the rest of the section is just a long list of intellectuals accused of alleged subversive activities, some of which probably involve cursing the soil or casting a magic spell to make their torturer hurt them against their torturer's will.

All part of "controlling the narrative".  We see this in action with the MSM and CIA leaks today.  And only a few writers are assassinated ... most get the message before it goes that far.

[Gilgamesh]

1)--It is not a matter of "difference", it is a matter of the material relationship of one class--the owners--to the other class--the workers.  To hoard wealth, as per the rules of capitalism, you have to become an owner--of the means of production.  Most rational human beings I know conclude that the hoarding of wealth by a relative few, and the subsequent unequal access to resources for survival, is "bad".

2)--Ok, demonstrate it.

3)--No, capitalism is authoritarian, or oligarchic, or plutocratic, and the merger of the corporate/State is the main aspect of the definition of fascism.  "Fascismo e il corporativismo"(Mussollini)

>"--It is not a matter of "difference", it is a matter of the material relationship of one class--the owners--to the other class--the workers.  To hoard wealth, as per the rules of capitalism, you have to become an owner--of the means of production.  Most rational human beings I know conclude that the hoarding of wealth by a relative few, and the subsequent unequal access to resources for survival, is "bad"."

Right, and what you're describing here isn't inherently bad. Capitalism with checks and balances - that is; social policies - can make for a very not-bad society.

>"--Ok, demonstrate it."

What do you think, for example, Canada is? Would you contend that Canada is both not 1; capitalist and 2; democratic?

>"capitalism is authoritarian, or oligarchic, or plutocratic"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

>"the merger of the corporate/State is the main aspect of the definition of fascism."

If that is the only criteria that need be met for a society to be defined as a fascist state, then all socialist states are also fascist states. In socialism, the people effectively become the state, and they seize the means of production - that is; they seize the corporate. This is an oxymoron, of course - but it's your oxymoron. Or maybe it isn't so much an oxymoron; Socialism and fascism look very much alike, certainly. What marks the difference, really, is whether or not it is conservative.

[Baruch]

Deep Space Nine:
Raum (brother of Quark) ... we don't want to end exploitation of the workers, we want to join it.

Perfect American, that.  The US is a spin off criminal enterprise, the original crime syndicates being the British Empire in general, and the British West Indies Company in particular.  Fascist from 1776.  The problem is we are running out of people to exploit, who don't fight back.  The marks are fighting back, hence Libya, Yemen, Syria, Ukraine ... the end of the American Dream, is that we are not only not joining the "rentiers", we are being kicked out of the club.  See George Carlin please.

[Mike Cl]

One thing that bothers me about most atheists, is that most are still capitalists and don't seem to have thought about that too much while voicing all their alleged "freedom".

etienne, a little of my background.  I was a product of the American public school system.  Therefore I loved American, the land of the brave, home of the free and righteous.  The one true country in which one is free to do as they please to either succeed or fail or try as often as one liked.  When I went to college and began taking 'real' history classes, my eyes were slowly opened and I began the journey of learning more of this countries real history. 

This is where I am now.  I have come to realize that no set of political 'ism' works in it's 'pure' form.  Capitalism, communism, fascism, socialism, or any other ism, has ever been practiced in it's pure form on any other than a very small scale.  Why?  They cannot work.  The most successful forms of govt. are blends of ism's.   When the communist scare grew after WWII, I began looking at what communism was, and found out that Marxist communism was not practiced anywhere, anytime.  Leninist and especially Stalinist Russia, for example, was different than Maoist China or any other communism.  They were simply forms of totalitarianism or dicatorship.    Anyway, capitalism unregulated results in it's own form of dictatorship--rule by the few.  What this country has now is rule by corporation; our Supreme Court makes no bones about it--corps are people too and eminent domain  can happen to anybody anywhere--if the stat or corp wants your land.  This country really is ruled by the .1%.  What we need is a form of a blended govt with elements of capitalism and socialism--and any other ism element that makes our society an actual free one of equal opportunities.

Yeah, this is generalized.  But that is how I generally see it.  Probably won't view the video's and can't give you specific sites or quotes to back up what I think.  I could dig them out, but at this point in my life I have accepted that I have evolved (devolved) into a video-idiot.  Love my strat games.

[Baruch]

Even if FDR had been preserved in Tupperware, and President-for-Life aka always ... Western Civ would still be going down.  But at least we wouldn't be at each other's throats so much.  FDR was hated in his time, by the 0.1% in particular.  People need to ask why that was.  How could he ally with Uncle Joe Stalin, when Brother Adolf was our natural ally?

[etienne]

The ends justify the means, huh?  That's an awfully dark path to go down and that path might not take you where you think it does.
I noticed a usually there, seemingly conceding that violence is often not necessary.  In fact, it's fairly routine for policy changes to be undertaken without the slightest drop of blood being spilled.  You really ought to look into that.  It might save you a lot of trouble in the future.
At the time, they had unwisely declared war with a ton of countries and created death camps in the countries they occupied, so stopping them with violence was simply self-defense.

Since the end of the great patriotic war and the subsequent decline of fascism, it's a lot less justifiable.  It smacks of criminalizing attitudes rather than behaviors.  And your bizarre conflation between capitalist and fascist makes this quote even more disquieting.

That map would make good tp.  Really, who composed the map, the U.N?

Well, if Power yields itself, then you dont have to use violence, correct?  But we are talking about revolution here, not policy reform.

Nazism, fascism is back, above ground, all over the world and particularly in the current White Haus administration.  It's time to fight fascists, unless you are one of them. 

[etienne]

Communism (fictionally) only existed in the Messianic Jewish community, before 70 CE.  See the Book of Acts.  This is where everyone, including Marx, stole the idea of equalitarian society (as opposed to egalitarian society).

Marx wrote of the "primitive communism" of hunter gatherer societies that existed for millenia.

[etienne]

Yo, G, since everyone has gotten a chance to view your self expression thru 4 large and tacky pictures, would it be too much to ask that you go back and edit at least a few of those out so we dont have to scroll thru all that mess everytime?  And I would kindly request that you limit the verticals too a tasteful minimum on future posts.  Thanks.

[etienne]

etienne, a little of my background.  I was a product of the American public school system.  Therefore I loved American, the land of the brave, home of the free and righteous.  The one true country in which one is free to do as they please to either succeed or fail or try as often as one liked.  When I went to college and began taking 'real' history classes, my eyes were slowly opened and I began the journey of learning more of this countries real history. 

This is where I am now.  I have come to realize that no set of political 'ism' works in it's 'pure' form.  Capitalism, communism, fascism, socialism, or any other ism, has ever been practiced in it's pure form on any other than a very small scale.  Why?  They cannot work.  The most successful forms of govt. are blends of ism's.   When the communist scare grew after WWII, I began looking at what communism was, and found out that Marxist communism was not practiced anywhere, anytime.  Leninist and especially Stalinist Russia, for example, was different than Maoist China or any other communism.  They were simply forms of totalitarianism or dictatorship.    Anyway, capitalism unregulated results in it's own form of dictatorship--rule by the few.  What this country has now is rule by corporation; our Supreme Court makes no bones about it--corps are people too and eminent domain  can happen to anybody anywhere--if the stat or corp wants your land.  This country really is ruled by the .1%.  What we need is a form of a blended govt with elements of capitalism and socialism--and any other ism element that makes our society an actual free one of equal opportunities.

Yeah, this is generalized.  But that is how I generally see it.  Probably won't view the video's and can't give you specific sites or quotes to back up what I think.  I could dig them out, but at this point in my life I have accepted that I have evolved (devolved) into a video-idiot.  Love my strat games.

Thanks.  Well, if you don't view the 1st 4 short vids I posted then you will most likely continue to not understand what so-comm is, like everybody else here not named "etienne", and how it has been and currently is practiced in various countries.  That's why I posted them so I don't have to keep explaining terms and concepts over and over to every single American, and otherwise, that comes along.  Ain't got time for that. I can't make it easier for folks.  If a person isn't interested in learning, they aren't interested, but then their opinions are not based in fact and they remain ignorant on the subject.

For e.g., I have said repeatedly that capitalism and socialism are antithetic which they, in fact, ARE.  They don't mix, oil and water, there is either one or the other. It's about which CLASS controls the means of production.  Socialism is the replacement of capitalism and vice versa.  Tax redistribution within the capitalist system is not socialism.  And I'm not going to repeat that anymore.  That is called "democratic socialism", and if people would watch just one of those vids I kindly posted, I wouldnt have to keep going over it and they would sound more intelligent when they spoke.

The rest of your critique of the USA is correct.  We live in a corporate/State fascist oligarch, with a thin facade of representative democracy..  Fascism is extreme capitalism when the latter becomes at it's height of instability.  That's when the autocrat shows up and that's what we have in the USA right now.  Anyone who doesn't know that is ignorant on the subject.  But no, we are not free, The Man controls the $, and wage workers are particularly not free.  Slaves are not free.  Human traffickees(the new name for "slaves) are not free.  If you are not the Boss, then you have a Boss.  You are not free if your options are to work for a Boss, pay taxes or starve to death homeless.  Starvation is violence. Money is control. The more $ you have the more "free" you are to exert power over other's resources--time, energy, thought, $--because $ is "freedom" and power in a system controlled by $.

P.S, The Maoists actually did attain full communism in some of their communes.

[Baruch]

Marx wrote of the "primitive communism" of hunter gatherer societies that existed for millenia.

Who stole the idea from Rousseau, the guy who love the Noble Savage ... even David Hume, came to loath Rousseau ... schizoid frog.

Yes, I would love hunter/gather society ... if you don't bring back some meat to the tribe, I am going to cook you for dinner ;-)

Early Israelis, were also fascist commies ... in their kibbutz and moshav.  And yes, we need a giant Cultural Revolution ... give the majority of humanity a one way trip ... useless rice eaters that they are.  Death is very educational, particularly in Cambodia.

[etienne]

Who stole the idea from Rousseau, the guy who love the Noble Savage ... even David Hume, came to loath Rousseau ... schizoid frog.

Yes, I would love hunter/gather society ... if you don't bring back some meat to the tribe, I am going to cook you for dinner ;-)

Early Israelis, were also fascist commies ... in their kibbutz and moshav.  And yes, we need a giant Cultural Revolution ... give the majority of humanity a one way trip ... useless rice eaters that they are.  Death is very educational, particularly in Cambodia.

I know some Kibbutzim "survivors" who now live in Jersey.  They practiced 'free love' and so many of the kids are pretty confused about "family" when encountering the standard nuclear family.  They were mostly owning class intellectual people living there as a state capitalist subsidized experiment in communal living.  So, they weren't self sufficient, in other words.  Chomsky and Bernie Sanders paid some dues there.