Hallo I am Glenifir

[Glenifir]

Heyyy  8-[

I'm glenifir.

I tried posting in the main forums but it said I can only post here until I get 10 likes or something so... whatever... ugh.... my brain hurts. My brain really really hurts...

reader: but why does your brain hurt? oh dear I hope it's nothing too bad...

actually, it's REALLY BAD. it's my parents... they believe in god. The Christian god to be exact... you know, the sort that believed that god can miraculously heal the sick and cure the blind and all that... poppy talk...

I was a Christian, wholeheartedly believing in god and going to church from 8 through to 14. I was baptised and fully believed in God and Jesus and the Holy spirit and demons and heaven and hell. I thought being gay was wrong and sinful, I thought people with mental disorders were possessed by demons and I thought JESUS/GOD/FATHER GOD/HOLY FATHER would solve all my problems like... acne, bad grades, bad relationships and general life problems that my Christian parents created in some way or another whilst denying they created them and providing no support... only judgement.

so ok, I had a harsh few years during my mid-teens, and actually a pretty bad childhood but that was non-god-related and so another story. Butt what's important now is that, after 2 years at university with some very smart and well read people, plus the help of lots of youtube videos and a little nudging from my lecturers I have thrown out GOD. Yep.

Converted quite quickly last Winter break, I went (evolved?) fairly quickly from:-
- Praise allah!
-hmm... god watches over me.
- I don't really know if god exists
- ok god doesn't really exist in any meaningful sense.

and... well. What I think a lot of people who have grown up without a religion in their family probably find it hard to understand is that losing god is a shock. No more heaven/ hell/ clear cut morals/ total authority... It's a lot like a bad break up with someone you love. But the fear of death soon subsided into wonder and amazement at the universe.

I mean... I'm a cleaver guy by most standards. I'm "Lazy" but clever. Leaving essays till the last minute and pulling off a decent pass is what's got me through the past hmm.... shit, I've almost got  mediocre degree out of it :D almost in the sense that the gigs just about up (said in 50s new Yorker policeman accent)... because I think I have failed a course at uni which will require a resit, meaning I have to go back and do it all again for possibly a whole year... yeah... oh fawckity fawck.

one of the reasons behind this resit though, is due to my sudden time consuming headache from the rush of knowledge flooding into my brain. Where I used to watch documentaries of Bjork and the Red hot chilli peppers and pink Floyd they are replaced with debates between richard dawkins/hitchens/sam harris/ danial dennet and others... listening to documentaries about the universe and it's creation whilst taking noobs down on BF3 (battlefield 3)... just so much to learn about... even if it just is for the sake of having interesting discussions.

anyway. thanks for reading this :) ohh and my head aches because 1. I'm taking in so much information and 2. I keep having horrible debates with my parents about god... and I think they think they are winning. :(

so I've come here for help. I need ammunition, I need detailed arguments against their beliefs... so please help me. Because they are living in darkness and are yet to open their eyes and hearts to the light of reality, to embrace science :)

thank you.

ps. I don't really "do" forums. Do I need a signature or something?

[Sal1981]

Hello.

I can't give much help ~ When I deconverted, the backlash, in retrospect, probably wasn't worth until after I had moved out, so if you haven't already, wait until then.

[Brian37]

Ammo you need?

This is a short list, learn the following terms and read the following books. And keep the following websites at your disposal.

Terms.

Infinite regress, the problem with.
Fallacy of Pascal's wager
Ocham's Razor

Books,

The God Delusion Richard Dawkins

The New Atheism Victor Stenger

God Is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens

The End of Faith, Sam Harris

Infidel, Ayaan Hersi Ali

Websites to keep hold of

This one of course

and

www.skepticsannotattedbible.com

www.rationalresponders.com

www.positiveatheism.com

www.ffrf.or "Freedom From Religion Foundation"

Like I said, this is a short list, Most of us here have read much more.

[Glenifir]

Ammo you need?

This is a short list, learn the following terms and read the following books. And keep the following websites at your disposal.

Terms.

Infinite regress, the problem with.
Fallacy of Pascal's wager
Ocham's Razor

Books,

The God Delusion Richard Dawkins

The New Atheism Victor Stenger

God Is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens

The End of Faith, Sam Harris

Infidel, Ayaan Hersi Ali

Websites to keep hold of

This one of course

and

http://www.skepticsannotattedbible.com

http://www.rationalresponders.com

http://www.positiveatheism.com

http://www.ffrf.or "Freedom From Religion Foundation"

Like I said, this is a short list, Most of us here have read much more.

ahh thanks for this, very helpful. I have already read 3 of richard dawkins books now, the selfish gene/the blind watchmaker/the god delusion and they were fantastic :) I have also read Hitchens god is not great: religion poisons everything which was also AMAZING. I'll go ahead and add the books you've recommended to my reading list. My longterm goal is to educate myself as much as possible so I can debate in a sort of Dawkins style, straight to the point and cut the crap sort of way.

at the moment I'm just trying to form a much better world view... I've probably got the next 7 months (yeah 7 whole months) to get a better grip on reality. My plan is to educate myself in detail about the past 300 years of history, and then about the past 4000 years of history in a general sense. That way I can explain how far we have come since the enlightenment, after our beginning to throw the shackles of religion off... and how samey the past thousands of year had been with religious authorities ruling unquestionably.

I'm going to do this firstly by reading Oliver stones book the untold history of america. I think once I have the world from now to world war 1 under control, I'll start stretching back to perhaps big points in time like the French revolution and stuff like that. Because at the moment everything I know about history is at best patchy.

I also want to get evolution down to a T. my parents don't believe in evolution and have actually said to me "scientists try as hard as they can to prove we don't need god" stating "Humans are too proud and science is their religion..." that "you need to give up to god and then you will see how disgusting you have been, and how wonderful it is to know god"... So my plan is to learn all I can about logic, and different methods of investigation and then try to explain how awesome the scientific method is; and after that I'll try to explain the evidence for evolution because my parents believe there is none.

which brings me to a point... I need books or resources that prove evolution...

oh and there is a whole host of other, in the words of penn and teller "stupid fucking things", that my parents believe in, and assertions that they make. I'll literally need so much help from you guys but hopefully I can convince them to drop god through logical argument. they have not been Christians their entire life, they are 40 now and only believed in god since maybe 28 for my mum and 33 for my step-dad.

[Solitary]

Welcome aboard Glenifir! The advice already given by others here is very good. Ask you parents how they know what they do about their religion, and if there is some reason why it must be correct just because they learned it from someone else. By definition faith means you don't know, so how could anyone know anything with faith and no evidence, or if the evidence they may have is reliable? If people were rational, reasonable, and coherent they wouldn't be religious. Bill

[PickelledEggs]

Welcome!

and I think they think they are winning. :(

I felt the same thing when I converted to atheism... it can be tough, luckily I'm in North NJ so I the most highly religous people I see are a few times a month (or every other month) at my art studio. Fundies....*shiver* :vom:

Brian and Solitary both stated 2 great tools. Equip yourself with knowledge for yourself with the things Brian gave you.
I would even throw in reading the bible as well. (I've used Matthew 6:6 for my own defense when fundies started preaching their "good news" to me.)

And ask questions, and even more importantly provoke thought in your parents by asking things that make them ask questions themselves.
Just try not to let the conversation get heated. When that happens no one gets anywhere and it ends in everyone pissed at each other.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Glenifir is a pretty name so I'll go out on a limb and make the asinine assumption you're female.
I just quit believing the bullshit and don't care who likes or dislikes it. There's no instruction manual..
By the way.. Where are your nude photo's? :-k

[PickelledEggs]

Glenifir is a pretty name so I'll go out on a limb and make the asinine assumption you're female.
I just quit believing the bullshit and don't care who likes or dislikes it. There's no instruction manual..
By the way.. Where are your nude photo's? :-k

- I don't really know if god exists
- ok god doesn't really exist in any meaningful sense.

and... well. What I think a lot of people who have grown up without a religion in their family probably find it hard to understand is that losing god is a shock. No more heaven/ hell/ clear cut morals/ total authority... It's a lot like a bad break up with someone you love. But the fear of death soon subsided into wonder and amazement at the universe.

[blink:3o46xmqc]I mean... I'm a cleaver guy by most standards.[/blink:3o46xmqc] I'm "Lazy" but clever. Leaving essays till the last minute and pulling off a decent pass is what's got me through the past hmm.... shit, I've almost got mediocre degree out of it :D almost in the sense that the gigs just about up (said in 50s new Yorker policeman accent)... because I think I have failed a course at uni which will require a resit, meaning I have to go back and do it all again for possibly a whole year... yeah... oh fawckity fawck.

one of the reasons behind this resit though, is due to my sudden time consuming headache from the rush of knowledge flooding into my brain. Where I used to watch documentaries of Bjork and the Red hot chilli peppers and pink Floyd they are replaced with debates between richard dawkins/hitchens/sam harris/ danial dennet and others... listening to documentaries about the universe and it's creation whilst taking noobs down on BF3 (battlefield 3)... just so much to learn about... even if it just is for the sake of having interesting discussions.

anyway. thanks for reading this :) ohh and my head aches because 1. I'm taking in so much information and 2. I keep having horrible debates with my parents about god... and I think they think they are winning. :(

so I've come here for help. I need ammunition, I need detailed arguments against their beliefs... so please help me. Because they are living in darkness and are yet to open their eyes and hearts to the light of reality, to embrace science :)

thank you.

ps. I don't really "do" forums. Do I need a signature or something?

 :rollin:

***EDIT***
I LOVE the reference to Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy btw

[Glenifir]

I LOVE the reference to Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy btw

ohh... wait what? what reference would that be? haha, it must have been accidental  :-k

Glenifir is a pretty name so I'll go out on a limb and make the asinine assumption you're female.
I just quit believing the bullshit and don't care who likes or dislikes it. There's no instruction manual..
By the way.. Where are your nude photo's? :-k

lol. I'm 20. I'm hairy. I have a girlfriend.

Glenifir is just a... hmm... a "pet name" my English teacher at high school gave me.  

[WitchSabrina]

lol. I'm 20. I'm hairy. I have a girlfriend.

Glenifir is just a... hmm... a "pet name" my English teacher at high school gave me.  

Yanno there aren't many 20 yr old young ladies who'd willingly admit to being 'hairy'.  LMAO

(had to do it)
Saying "I have a girlfriend" doesn't automatically make you male.  Some of us are rather liberal round there here parts.
LOL

Welcome by the way.   *waves*   Hope you like it here.

[aitm]

welcome to the nut house

[Mister Agenda]

Welcome, G!

[Colanth]

Can't help you much on the deconversion problems - I never "converted" in the first place.  Born with no belief in any gods and no one ever stuffed any into me.  However:

The "clear cut morals" thing.  If it's wrong, don't do it.  Do you really need a god to tell you that cheating someone is wrong?  Or killing, unless it's in defense of life?  Is it really going to hurt someone if 2 men, or 2 women, get married?  Religious "morality" is for those who can't, or don't want to, think.

I wouldn't get into arguments with your parents against their beliefs.  They have them, that's fine, you don't, and leave it at that.

Evolution?  That means "change".  It has nothing to do with man coming from monkeys, or crocoducks or proving that there's no god.  (Lower-case 'g' is deliberate.  Upper-case 'G' is the name of the Christian one.)  Take a look at //http://i.imgur.com/oAnfA.jpg and tell me which is the last red word and which is the first blue one.  That's how evolution works.  With enough change, you even get slime mold changing to hominids (of which we are one).

Don't some Christians claim that Noah took only two (or seven, for the literalists) of each "kind" and all the species of that "kind" 'evolved' since then?  (Which is only a few thousand years.)  But then they tell us that even a few billion years isn't enough for evolution to have done the same thing from "lving kind"?  They're arguing both sides of the same question.  What they're really doing is making it up as they go.  Religion is finding evidence to bolster the ideas you already have, science is finding evidence, then forming ideas to explain it.  And so far, no scientist has ever found any evidence that requires any god as an explanation.

[Glenifir]

Don't some Christians claim that Noah took only two (or seven, for the literalists) of each "kind" and all the species of that "kind" 'evolved' since then? (Which is only a few thousand years.) But then they tell us that even a few billion years isn't enough for evolution to have done the same thing from "lving kind"?

Ahhh thankyou, fantastically destructive of the Noahs ark idea. Another is beautifully presented by Richard Dawkins...

"Why would all those marsupials – ranging from tiny pouched mice through koalas and bilbys to giant kangaroos and Diprotodonts – why would all those marsupials, but no placentals at all, have migrated en masse from Mount Ararat to Australia? Which route did they take? And why did not a single member of their straggling caravan pause on the way, and settle – in India, perhaps, or China, or some haven along the Great Silk Road? Why did the entire order Edentata (all twenty species of armadillo, including the extinct giant armadillo, all six species of sloth, including extinct giant sloths, and all four species of anteater) troop off unerringly for South America, leaving not a rack behind, leaving no hide nor hair nor armour plate of settlers somewhere along the way? Why were they joined by the entire infraorder of caviomorph rodents, including guinea pigs, agoutis, pacas, maras, capybaras, chinchillas and lots of others, a large group of characteristically South American rodents, found nowhere else? Why did an entire sub-order of monkeys, the platyrrhine monkeys, end up in South America and nowhere else? Shouldn't at least a few of them have joined the rest of the monkeys, the catarrhines, in Asia or Africa? And shouldn't at least one species of catarrhine have found itself in the New World, along with the platyrrhines? Why did all the penguins undertake the long waddle south to the Antarctic, not a single one to the equally hospitable Arctic?" (Dawkins - the greatest show on earth)

many of you will have already read or listened to this argument before, but I find it's always a pleasure to reinforce your Atheism with such crushingly good arguments from impeccably sound logic.

Yanno there aren't many 20 yr old young ladies who'd willingly admit to being 'hairy'. LMAO

;)



anyway, thanks for all the welcomes guys. One of the biggest reasons I want to deconvert my family is because I believe religion suffocates your ability to think for yourself, it creates zombies who are only a danger to society. Once you have an authority figure who dictates absolute morality, who demands absolute faith and subjugation, you have a problem, you have mindless zombies who will do unimaginable things; religious heads of state using God as an example of the most potent authoritarianism.

ohh... plus I need money for uni, approximatly £2000 a year which is at least as much as they spend on, pardon my Swedish, fucking tithes and fuel going to church and church related events. So on the surface it's kinda bad and maybe harmless, but looking deeper it just FUCKS EVERYTHING UP.

thanks

[Plu]

One of the biggest reasons I want to deconvert my family is because I believe religion suffocates your ability to think for yourself, it creates zombies who are only a danger to society.

I think you're approaching this from the wrong direction. The idea isn't to deconvert them so that they start thinking for themselves, the idea is to force them to think for themselves, and they'll do the deconverting on their own.

Also, welcome to the forums.