Hallo I am Glenifir

[Glenifir]

One of the biggest reasons I want to deconvert my family is because I believe religion suffocates your ability to think for yourself, it creates zombies who are only a danger to society.

I think you're approaching this from the wrong direction. The idea isn't to deconvert them so that they start thinking for themselves, the idea is to force them to think for themselves, and they'll do the deconverting on their own.

Also, welcome to the forums.

I know I cannot force them to change their minds, and I know the final decision will ultimately be down to them, and I will be using methods like posing questions to provoke thought because, frankly, it's a wonderful and non confrontational way to avoid an argument whilst getting results.

so yeah, I'm not afraid, and neither are my parents, of a little confrontation, and that's OK. But the problem with religious people, I've found, is that they avoid your arguments. I've seen this in numerous debates, and withing Christians specifically, they avoid thinking about your questions. I was told in church when I was, maybe, 12ish that all the scientists can come in and "disprove" God (    ) with their fancy words and theories BUT hey there is this one other scientist who believes in God and and says all the "evolutionists" are completely wrong and the bible is right so actually main stream science is wrong.

ps. God is coming back soon so w/e it's all cool, when he comes back everyone will be judged and we will be OK because we are Christians.

anyway - point being...

these people don't ever question the authority of their "holy" book. My parents cannot even imagine not believing in the Bible. I said to my step-dad one day "hey, you know you do not need a god for an afterlife" and he said "No, if the bible is not true then how can their possibly be any afterlife". it's as if they want the bible to be true more than they want an eternal life of happiness and pleasure without jesus - it's insane. you know what it reminds me of? someone who is in love with someone else who is just bad for them; you could offer them all the riches in the world but their unhealthy love tells them to throw the world away for that person they love.

anyway sorry if I'm writing too much here, but I just need an outlet for these thoughts... I've spent hundreds of hours studying the topic since last WINTER SOLSTICE and I just need to have my ideas refined.

[PickelledEggs]

One of the biggest reasons I want to deconvert my family is because I believe religion suffocates your ability to think for yourself, it creates zombies who are only a danger to society.

I think you're approaching this from the wrong direction. The idea isn't to deconvert them so that they start thinking for themselves, the idea is to force them to think for themselves, and they'll do the deconverting on their own.

Also, welcome to the forums.

Yea. you don't want to"tell" them the info. Once an atheist does that, in my opinion they are just as annoying as a missionary christian... atheists have a much better, much more effective, and much less annoying approach available to them. Provoking people to ask questions themselves. Plu hit the nail on the head. You don't want to deconvert them. You want to have them asking the questions that you asked yourself that made you a skeptic in the first place.

I've found, is that they avoid your arguments.

That is because they don't like that the topic you are talking about makes them question their religion. Keep in mind that they had most of thier life invested in this thought process. Changing the way you think is hard enough as it is, let alone changing a belief you had since before you were able to speak. That kind of change can be scary. It is a big change for some.

ps. God is coming back soon so w/e it's all cool, when he comes back everyone will be judged and we will be OK because we are Christians.

Why does everyone think judgment day will happen in their lifetime???  :rollin:

[PickelledEggs]

Oh yea, and the reference to Hitchikers Guide...

(I don't know if you ever read either the book or watched the movie...)

Long story short... "42" is the meaning of life... so when I got to 42 posts I got this banner for my rank

[Colanth]

I was told in church when I was, maybe, 12ish that all the scientists can come in and "disprove" God (    ) with their fancy words and theories BUT hey there is this one other scientist who believes in God and and says all the "evolutionists" are completely wrong and the bible is right so actually main stream science is wrong.

Yeah, if 10,000 scientists, some of them the leaders in their fields, have found something that contradicts their beliefs, but ONE "scientist" of whom no one ever heard contradicts that, he's right and all of science is wrong.  Look up Galileo and heliocentrism, if they're not immediately familiar to you.

"Received wisdom" is neither received nor wisdom, it's stupidity.

BTW, there are "scientists" who admittedly studied science only so that they'd be listened to when they claimed that science is wrong and God is the way to go.  They never accepted what they studied, they just wanted the letters after their names.  So that your pastor can say "A 'scientist' said ..."

I said to my step-dad one day "hey, you know you do not need a god for an afterlife" and he said "No, if the bible is not true then how can their possibly be any afterlife".

Here's a thought:  The Bible is wrong and there is no afterlife.

HORRORS!

That would mean that when we die, we just stop being, and most people can't conceive of even thinking about that, so a nice fairy tale about living in some "other place" after death makes them feel better.  Not being old and having gout, or not having to wait for my tomatoes to ripen, would make me feel better too.  So would having a few million dollars more in my retirement fund.  Doesn't mean any of that's any more true than any other fairy tale.  But fear of non-existence after death is why religion - the Egyptian cult of the dead, Judaism, Christianity, all of it - exists.  For adults, there's reality; for scared children, there's religion.  (And your chronological age doesn't determine into which group you fall.)

[Glenifir]

Oh yea, and the reference to Hitchikers Guide...

(I don't know if you ever read either the book or watched the movie...)

Long story short... "42" is the meaning of life... so when I got to 42 posts I got this banner for my rank

ahhh... I read all the books and watched the movie haha. yeah good times  8-)

That is because they don't like that the topic you are talking about makes them question their religion. Keep in mind that they had most of thier life invested in this thought process. Changing the way you think is hard enough as it is, let alone changing a belief you had since before you were able to speak. That kind of change can be scary. It is a big change for some.

I agree. I'l be putting up other posts later on that actually describe in detail something they believe so that you guys can help me figure out how to [s:pmckka25]DEMOLISH[/s:pmckka25] insidiously implant religiously-deconstruction thoughts in my parents. OMG it's inception  :rollin: also, my parents have not believed in god their entire lives, at least in the christian sense... both had no religious affiliation until well into their adulthood, around the age of 30.

[Farroc]

Hello. I made a very long post that I worked hard on and took me 15 minutes, but it didn't post. So I sighed and retyped the whole thing, but that didn't post either. I'm just gonna go punch a hole and my wall and cry myself to sleep now. So, thanks for that. Welcome.

[wolf39us]

There are character limits...

[WitchSabrina]

One of the biggest reasons I want to deconvert my family is because I believe religion suffocates your ability to think for yourself, it creates zombies who are only a danger to society.

I think you're approaching this from the wrong direction. The idea isn't to deconvert them so that they start thinking for themselves, the idea is to force them to think for themselves, and they'll do the deconverting on their own.

Also, welcome to the forums.

I know I cannot force them to change their minds, and I know the final decision will ultimately be down to them, and I will be using methods like posing questions to provoke thought because, frankly, it's a wonderful and non confrontational way to avoid an argument whilst getting results.

so yeah, I'm not afraid, and neither are my parents, of a little confrontation, and that's OK. But the problem with religious people, I've found, is that they avoid your arguments. I've seen this in numerous debates, and withing Christians specifically, they avoid thinking about your questions. I was told in church when I was, maybe, 12ish that all the scientists can come in and "disprove" God (    ) with their fancy words and theories BUT hey there is this one other scientist who believes in God and and says all the "evolutionists" are completely wrong and the bible is right so actually main stream science is wrong.

ps. God is coming back soon so w/e it's all cool, when he comes back everyone will be judged and we will be OK because we are Christians.

anyway - point being...

these people don't ever question the authority of their "holy" book. My parents cannot even imagine not believing in the Bible. I said to my step-dad one day "hey, you know you do not need a god for an afterlife" and he said "No, if the bible is not true then how can their possibly be any afterlife". it's as if they want the bible to be true more than they want an eternal life of happiness and pleasure without jesus - it's insane. you know what it reminds me of? someone who is in love with someone else who is just bad for them; you could offer them all the riches in the world but their unhealthy love tells them to throw the world away for that person they love.

anyway sorry if I'm writing too much here, but I just need an outlet for these thoughts... I've spent hundreds of hours studying the topic since last WINTER SOLSTICE and I just need to have my ideas refined.

A lot of us know exactly what you describe.  Hang in there.  And welcome. :)

[Solitary]

A book that I highly recommend is: God and the Folly of Faith by Victor J. Stenger, that shows how science and religion are incompatible and how silly faith is with no reliable evidence to back it up. Solitary

[WitchSabrina]

And my favorite book for being able to hold your own with theist is:

God Against The Gods - by Jonathan Kirsch.



Cause if you want to tackle someone questioning your lack of belief - History helps.

http://www.amazon.com/God-Against-The-G ... 0142196339

[Glenifir]

Thanks for all the responses  :-D

I just found out I need to re-sit my biology exam on the 22nd so I won't be very active until then but hopefully after that I can get stuck into history books. What I am going to do is question my parents about their beliefs and write down what they say so that I can report back to you guys what they actually think.

BUT YEAH...

gotta study for biology because I need a pass in that to go into third year. a fail would mean I need to resit my 2nd year spring semester again :( but 6 days should be enough time :) thanks for all the info though, and the links to relevant resources. I'm an intense and extreme personality, so the moment I actually get a good chunk of free time (something I've not really had this month) I'm just going to hit the books.

strange as it sounds, even after HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of hours of documentoris/interviews/audiobooks I still feel like I'm just scratching the surface. How can the whole of the Scottish Education system fail to make a person think critically? I wonder if it's a failing of the school system or the chocking grip of the idea of God; what is clear is the power of accessible information AKA the internet.

[Colanth]

strange as it sounds, even after HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of hours of documentoris/interviews/audiobooks I still feel like I'm just scratching the surface.

After about 6 decades of studying religion in one way or another, I still learn new things all the time, so don't let hundreds of hours make you feel bad.

How can the whole of the Scottish Education system fail to make a person think critically? I wonder if it's a failing of the school system or the chocking grip of the idea of God

It's the assumption, by almost all of Western civilization, that Christian belief isn't a religion, it's like the belief that water is wet.  Everyone believes, right?  Christianity isn't open to question.  If Christian "received wisdom" and reality contradict, it must be that our view of reality is wrong - the Bible can't be.

Someone can lead a full life, and be a good person, without believing in the god they believe in?  Impossible.  We're just children refusing to face reality.

what is clear is the power of accessible information AKA the internet.

As someone who had to walk to the library to do any research, for many years, I thank their god (or whatever) for the internet.  Finding out what's real is so much easier these days.

[WitchSabrina]

Thanks for all the responses  :-D

I just found out I need to re-sit my biology exam on the 22nd so I won't be very active until then but hopefully after that I can get stuck into history books. What I am going to do is question my parents about their beliefs and write down what they say so that I can report back to you guys what they actually think.

BUT YEAH...

gotta study for biology because I need a pass in that to go into third year. a fail would mean I need to resit my 2nd year spring semester again :( but 6 days should be enough time :) thanks for all the info though, and the links to relevant resources. I'm an intense and extreme personality, so the moment I actually get a good chunk of free time (something I've not really had this month) I'm just going to hit the books.

strange as it sounds, even after HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of hours of documentoris/interviews/audiobooks I still feel like I'm just scratching the surface. How can the whole of the Scottish Education system fail to make a person think critically? I wonder if it's a failing of the school system or the chocking grip of the idea of God; what is clear is the power of accessible information AKA the internet.

Critical thinking?  Whuut?  Now who would want to encourage that?  That can lead to......................

right
now you understand :-D

[Glenifir]

Woo Hoo... Passed Biology and I'm into Third Year University after this summer!!! haha! I am a freaking king :D I'd like to close this thread now... it's time to be a part of this forum :-D   :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

[the_antithesis]

There are character limits...

There's always been a limit to my character.