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Does math exist?

Started by Plu, June 05, 2013, 02:29:45 PM

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rex

Quote from: Plu on March 27, 2014, 08:08:00 AM
Depends on what parts you think make up math. If you rebuild it from the ground up, I'm pretty sure a ratio like pi would still exist, but you'd have to wonder if that ratio is an inherent part of the concept of math, or just a side effect of our use of it. Math could still perform a lot of functions without knowledge of pi.
What I am saying is that math contains objects and variables which are eternal and can't be found in nature. Which kind of hints me some sort of mathematical dimension.

Sal1981

Constants such as Pi and natural logarithm e are calculated a priori, they exist only in maths - but even with that, that's a number that would only exist if someone is around to discover it, it's just more sophisticated than comparing 2 set amounts of something existing in nature.

rex

Quote from: Sal1981 on March 27, 2014, 09:33:12 AM
Constants such as Pi and natural logarithm e are calculated a priori, they exist only in maths - but even with that, that's a number that would only exist if someone is around to discover it, it's just more sophisticated than comparing 2 set amounts of something existing in nature.
Yeah but if there is nobody to discover law of gravity doesn't mean law of gravity doesn't exist.
If there is nobody to discover distance doesn't mean distance doesn't exist. If there is nobody to measure time doesn't mean time doesn't exist.

The fact that there is no observer doesn't change information.
As for mathematics I think eternal constants are telling me something. Perfect circle can't be found anywhere. Yet the more close you get to a perfect circle yet closer it's ratio to it's diameter comes to Pi.
And Pi can be calculated on paper, in computer, in the mind. Yet it's still the same.
So it is independent of observers. Independent of nature. And is eternal. I'm certain it does exist.

Plu

Pi can be approached, but never calculated.

Sal1981

Quote from: rex on March 27, 2014, 09:44:23 AM
Yeah but if there is nobody to discover law of gravity doesn't mean law of gravity doesn't exist.
If there is nobody to discover distance doesn't mean distance doesn't exist. If there is nobody to measure time doesn't mean time doesn't exist.

The fact that there is no observer doesn't change information.
As for mathematics I think eternal constants are telling me something. Perfect circle can't be found anywhere. Yet the more close you get to a perfect circle yet closer it's ratio to it's diameter comes to Pi.
And Pi can be calculated on paper, in computer, in the mind. Yet it's still the same.
So it is independent of observers. Independent of nature. And is eternal. I'm certain it does exist.
This seems like a question of what came first, chicken or the egg. I think that without reality or an observer to make a note of it, we wouldn't have the diameter to circle ratio.

I can easily see that the ratio exists independently of me, but I can also see that it's an invention of thinking minds that discover these ratios. You can't get there without both, reality and a reasoned language to describe it. Without ever seeing a circle, you wouldn't think of that ratio, likewise without a language, i.e. maths, you wouldn't think of a ratio if you saw a circle-like object in reality.

This is the reason why I think you need minds first (and the language to describe it) and circle-like objects secondly to make account of a constant we call Pi thereof.

josephpalazzo

#155
Quote from: rex on March 26, 2014, 07:11:48 PM
If life will form on some other planet and they calculate number pi it will be the same as it is here. Precisely the same.
And you can't find it anywhere in the nature.

Pi is the ratio between the circumference of a circle and its diameter. It's really a geometric concept, hence it's physical, just like a tree is physical. In terms of math, it's a ratio, which is a division, which is the inverse of multiplication, which is another way of adding groups, and addition is just another language that is more practical to say, "I have two sheep", then saying, "I have a sheep and another sheep."

Now, I do agree that we can describe reality with symbols, which are human constructs: the alphabet and math. But these two form different languages. Pi is just a convenient way to say the circumference over diameter: two things I can measure with a ruler of an object that exist in the real world.

rex

Quote from: josephpalazzo on March 27, 2014, 10:51:40 AM
Pi is the ratio between the circumference of a circle and its diameter. It's really a geometric concept, hence it's physical, just like a tree is physical. In terms of math, it's a ratio, which is a division, which is the inverse of multiplication, which is another way of adding groups, and addition is just another language that is more practical to say, "I have two sheep", then saying, "I have a sheep and another sheep."

Now, I do agree that we can describe reality with symbols, which are human constructs: the alphabet and math. But these two form different languages. Pi is just a convenient way to say the circumference over diameter: two things I can measure with a ruler of an object that exist in the real world.

What I am talking about is that pi is 3.14... not 3.15... or 3.13...
It will always be 3.14...
Another thing is that you can calculate it very precisely on paper or in your mind and then when you test it in reality it will be very accurate.
Now how could that come about?

Besides all the different mathematical fields work well together. It's a part of the whole thing which we can't see completely yet.
As for minds who gives the fuck about them?
The triangle would still be a^2 + b^2 = c^2 even if there was no one to know it.
Math is independent of both reality and minds.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: rex on April 04, 2014, 03:43:25 PM
What I am talking about is that pi is 3.14... not 3.15... or 3.13...
It will always be 3.14...
Another thing is that you can calculate it very precisely on paper or in your mind and then when you test it in reality it will be very accurate.
Now how could that come about?

Which part of "It's really a geometric concept, hence it's physical" don't you understand?

QuoteBesides all the different mathematical fields work well together. It's a part of the whole thing which we can't see completely yet.


Indeed, mathematical description plays a vital role in our understanding of the real world. But so do words.

QuoteAs for minds who gives the fuck about them?

If minds don't exist, then words don't, and likewise with numbers.


QuoteThe triangle would still be a^2 + b^2 = c^2 even if there was no one to know it.

Again, you are describing a geometric object, which like a tree or a cat, would exist independently of a human mind.


QuoteMath is independent of both reality and minds.

With no minds in the universe, who would be counting? God??

rex

Quote from: josephpalazzo on April 04, 2014, 06:49:22 PM
Which part of "It's really a geometric concept, hence it's physical" don't you understand?


Indeed, mathematical description plays a vital role in our understanding of the real world. But so do words.

If minds don't exist, then words don't, and likewise with numbers.


Again, you are describing a geometric object, which like a tree or a cat, would exist independently of a human mind.


With no minds in the universe, who would be counting? God??

Look here bitch.
2+2=4 even if NOBODY IS FUCKING COUNTING. It's not 5 or 3 or 2. It's 4. ALWAYS 4.

Now as for geometry objects. Find me perfect triangle or circle in nature.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: rex on April 24, 2014, 05:14:42 PM
Look here bitch.
2+2=4 even if NOBODY IS FUCKING COUNTING. It's not 5 or 3 or 2. It's 4. ALWAYS 4.

[lmgtfy]Tautology[/lmgtfy]



QuoteNow  as for geometry objects. Find me perfect triangle or circle in nature.

Nothing is ever perfect, but lots of stuff which are triangular or circular.

rex

Quote from: josephpalazzo on April 24, 2014, 06:12:49 PM
[lmgtfy]Tautology[/lmgtfy]



Nothing is ever perfect, but lots of stuff which are triangular or circular.
Pi applies to perfect circles. The more digits you count the more perfect it gets.
So there is perfection which can't be found in nature yet it can be calculated. And it is independent of minds since destruction of all minds information is still true.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: rex on April 25, 2014, 03:03:06 AM
Pi applies to perfect circles. The more digits you count the more perfect it gets.
So there is perfection which can't be found in nature yet it can be calculated. And it is independent of minds since destruction of all minds information is still true.

How can anything get more perfect??? It's either perfect, or not. Anything that has to get more perfect wasn't perfect to start with.

rex

Quote from: josephpalazzo on April 25, 2014, 10:24:11 AM
How can anything get more perfect??? It's either perfect, or not. Anything that has to get more perfect wasn't perfect to start with.
What the fuck are you talking about?
The pi is transcendental number. It's unlimited. But you can calculate any number of digits with a mathematical series. And even if geometry of the universe is different mathematicians in another universe can come up with flat space and calculate pi and it will have same digits.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: rex on April 25, 2014, 04:07:38 PM
What the fuck are you talking about?
The pi is transcendental number. It's unlimited. But you can calculate any number of digits with a mathematical series. And even if geometry of the universe is different mathematicians in another universe can come up with flat space and calculate pi and it will have same digits.

Pi is the ratio of circumference to diameter. A civilization could be aware of this ratio without ever expressing it as a number.

rex

Quote from: josephpalazzo on April 25, 2014, 05:23:33 PM
Pi is the ratio of circumference to diameter. A civilization could be aware of this ratio without ever expressing it as a number.
Yes and the ratio is always the same. It never changes.