Ethicists - Voting Your Heart is Immoral

[Jason Harvestdancer]

And again, that is all hunky dory if our actions didn't have reactions, but they do.

What reaction?  If I vote for Hillary or if I vote for Trump or if I vote for Johnson, California will go for Hillary.  You assume there will be a reaction, but there is no evidence that there will be a reaction.  Are you honestly saying that California is a swing state?

The third party vote put it's own arrogance ahead of it's brain and got Bush elected.

The old and fallacious "Nader cost Gore the election."  Because, after all, the Nader votes actually belonged to Gore and those selfish Nader voters didn't give Gore his property.  This is the same Gore who couldn't carry his home state, but could carry his home state in a state-wide Senate race so don't say "oh but that is a red state."

You try to pour water on the fire, but all you have done is add gasoline.

So you are saying that California is a swing state?

Why should the average voter have any trust in what you have to say when you have to really dig deep to find a third party candidate who has the slightest clue about... anything... and their tract record is one of harm rather than good? It's all just, "My shit doesn't stink! Why don't you eat MY turd sandwich instead... it is relished with self-righteousness! Mmm mmm!" and no real depth.'

You know what would be even more interesting?  If there was a third party ticket that had more executive experience than both the major party tickets combined.

Dare I say it and sound the conservative, but a stable government is simply a more ethical and logical choice than an unstable one third parties bring.

So if I, in California, vote third party, it will destabilize our government?

[Cavebear]

It was your standard of proof when I said that Hillary was unethical.

In that case, you obviously misinterpreted what I said.  Clinton is the only ethical and competent choice and Trump is one of those vile horror movie monsters arising from the gassy swamp to ruin normal life.  LOL!

[PickelledEggs]

[Cavebear]

That is about right about the Repubs. 

[Baruch]

Jason ... our so called rationalists, are so committed to their irrational political partisanship ;-))

Aiee ... even before I vote, I regret my vote, I don't have to wait several years into a Gary Johnson administration.  Check into Jill Stein's VP candidate, I bet Ajamu Baraka knows where Aleppo is, even if Jill Stein doesn't!

The Libertarian VP candidate scandal ... the party I am voting for later today, burns my eyes out more than Trump's groping "big" hands ...

Bill Weld, the VP candidate, has been revealed (because nobody gave a damn before, he wasn't hiding it, unlike the Clintons) that he not only plans on voting for Hillary, but that he is a scion of a very blue blood New England family, and is an actual MEMBER of the Council on Foreign Relations.

Has the CIA gotten one of their replicants onto every ticket?  Is ever VP candidate a shadow President in waiting?  This guy's bonifides reads like The Kissinger himself!

Please ignore the Presidential candidate, only pay attention to the VP candidate, that is the actual President you are voting on ... aiee

[SGOS]

The email scandal has reached a point where judicious oversight crosses a line and becomes driven solely by  anger, frustration, and obsession.  This appeals to the baser aspects of human character, and hardly testifies to the finer qualities of the human condition.

[Cavebear]

The email scandal has reached a point where judicious oversight crosses a line and becomes driven solely by  anger, frustration, and obsession.  This appeals to the baser aspects of human character, and hardly testifies to the finer qualities of the human condition.

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting the email thing is no longer important.  True, Clinton would not have a private server as President and the whole bad habit goes away.  If so, I tend to agree.  While Trump would carry in and continue all his bad habits and multiple them...

[SGOS]

All I can say is that it doesn't seem that important.  I'm not a fan of Hillary at all, but this still seems like it's being driven by ulterior motives.  I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem that important.  Like Atheon pointed out in some other thread, "Except, they are not investigating Clinton.  They are investigating Weiner."

But I don't believe that's what the coverage is about.  It's about Clinton.  Weiner is little more than a convenient vehicle to destroy Clinton.  If it was about Weiner, they wouldn't be making it about Clinton.

[Cavebear]

All I can say is that it doesn't seem that important.  I'm not a fan of Hillary at all, but this still seems like it's being driven by ulterior motives.  I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem that important.  Like Atheon pointed out in some other thread, "Except, they are not investigating Clinton.  They are investigating Weiner."

But I don't believe that's what the coverage is about.  It's about Clinton.  Weiner is little more than a convenient vehicle to destroy Clinton.  If it was about Weiner, they wouldn't be making it about Clinton.

Everything remotely connected to a Presidential candidate is about the candidate.  Did Carter's brother Billy matter to a Carter presidency?  Of course not.  Except it did.  If Reagan's son had come out of the closet during the 1980 campaign, Reagan would have lost. 

Half the voters are stupider than average, and they decide how to vote for stupid reasons.  What, did you think stupid people make smart choices?  LOL!

[FaithIsFilth]

Her and Bill haven't killed anyone.  That's made up.

How could you possibly know that? Instead, I think you mean "we don't know that Hillary and Bill have killed anyone". You are making a positive claim that can not be backed up. Let's take Assange's source who was gunned down in the street, for example. This is unsolved. If they had discovered evidence showing that his wife shot and killed him or something like that, then yeah, you could reasonably make the claim that Hillary had nothing to do with it. Right now, you have nothing at all to back up your claim. If an FBI snitch, who happened to be a mafia member or gang member was found killed, would you be claiming that the mafia or gang had nothing to do with it? Probably not. My guess is that you would not try to make the claim that they absolutely had nothing to do with it, just because it couldn't be proven that they did it. Instead, you would probably be saying something more along the lines of "Well, the evidence isn't there, so you can't put these people away for any role in the crime". That's quite a bit different than "they did nothing". If you are going to make such claims, you have to back them up, and you simply can not do that when it comes to this claim of yours in particular. I don't know what happened, but in Hillary's defense, when you leak stuff like he did from inside the campaign, you really are asking to die. He knew what he was getting himself into.

[Jason Harvestdancer]

In that case, you obviously misinterpreted what I said.  Clinton is the only ethical and competent choice and Trump is one of those vile horror movie monsters arising from the gassy swamp to ruin normal life.  LOL!

Clinton is ethical?  Oh boy.  Look, just because Trump is the epitome of everything that is wrong with culture in the US doesn't magically miraculously transform Hillary into anything better than the epitome of everything wrong with politics in the US.

[Cavebear]

Clinton is ethical?  Oh boy.  Look, just because Trump is the epitome of everything that is wrong with culture in the US doesn't magically miraculously transform Hillary into anything better than the epitome of everything wrong with politics in the US.

There is a difference in all things.  I never said Clinton was Hunny Bunny, Obama or Bill or Kennedy.  But Trump is pond scum.

And we have a choice between sneaky and competent vs petty dictator, incompetent, and vile...  And don't ask which is which.  You know.

[Jason Harvestdancer]

There is a difference in all things.  I never said Clinton was Hunny Bunny, Obama or Bill or Kennedy.  But Trump is pond scum.

And we have a choice between sneaky and competent vs petty dictator, incompetent, and vile...  And don't ask which is which.  You know.

You said she is ethical.

You can say she is better than Trump without absurd posturing about how she has ever had anything even remotely resembling having a conscience.

You can say Trump is a monster without having to lie about how Hillary isn't.

You said she is ethical.  Good grief.

We have a choice between a Psychopath and a Psychotic.  You can say the Psychotic is Psychotic without having to say the Psychopath isn't a Psychopath.  You don't have to lie about how good she is when saying she's better than Trump.  She's still evil, vile, and awful even if she is better than Trump.

Or are you so embarrassed that you support someone so evil (because the alternative is worse) that you will actually try to pretend that she is somehow actually secretly good deep down inside where she hides it so well that only you can see it?

[Cavebear]

You said she is ethical.

You can say she is better than Trump without absurd posturing about how she has ever had anything even remotely resembling having a conscience.

You can say Trump is a monster without having to lie about how Hillary isn't.

You said she is ethical.  Good grief.

We have a choice between a Psychopath and a Psychotic.  You can say the Psychotic is Psychotic without having to say the Psychopath isn't a Psychopath.  You don't have to lie about how good she is when saying she's better than Trump.  She's still evil, vile, and awful even if she is better than Trump.

Or are you so embarrassed that you support someone so evil (because the alternative is worse) that you will actually try to pretend that she is somehow actually secretly good deep down inside where she hides it so well that only you can see it?

Let's trade facts rather than impressions...

I say that Trump is incompetent because the has no experience in international relations.  There is more to world leadership than making money deals.  Trump does yet show any understanding of that..

I say Trump is "vile" because he is a mysoginist, groper, who thinks nothing of running into the dressing rooms of teen women at beauty contests "because he can".  And because  he thinks he can grab women's genitals because they have to let him get away with it sometimes in fear of their careers.

I say he is psychotic because he has no sense of truth, changing it day-to day.  No unfactual statement bothers him in any degree.    I can give you a dozen unfactual statements he has made if you want to be bludgeoned by them.  And that wouldn't be the half of them.

Mostly, I say he is psychotic because he believes the stuff he makes up as he goes are true BECAUSE HE SAYS THEM!

I say Trump is unethical because he lies about everything in his life.  He lied about giving money to the veterans.  He lies about giving money to charities (his foundation does with other people's money).  He even lies about giving money to his own campaign.  They are LOANS which he will either get back whole or take them off his taxes!  He wrote off OTHER PEOPLES losses on his own taxes!

Now lets see about Clinton.  She used a private server for convenience.  That must be psychotic right?  Well, no, she was just doing what the Republicans before her did. 

She has both domestic and international governmental experience.  She was in the White House asan active partner to a President, A Senator who worked across the aisle with Repub Senators to get a few bills passed.  Then was Secretary of State.  So it seems she has some experience.

Ethics must be your problem, then.   She gave some speeches for money while out of office.  So did the Bushes.

Clinton showed her tax forms.  That MUST be some unethical trick for sure.

She met with someone who gave money to the Clinton Foundation who had been giving money to it for years before.  And it was someone the Secretary of State SHOULD meet with.

Those things don't even come close to similar.  So what is your REAL problem with her.  Let's hear the truth of what you think.  It is either going to be conspiratorial or laughable.

[Baruch]

Clinton is ethical?  Oh boy.  Look, just because Trump is the epitome of everything that is wrong with culture in the US doesn't magically miraculously transform Hillary into anything better than the epitome of everything wrong with politics in the US.

Americans are big on magical thinking, even atheists ;-)

Clinton tax forms couldn't have shown all the money flows, and quid pro quos that are the Clinton Foundation.  She has no connection with that, just like Cheney had no connection to Halliburton.