Zimmerman's Gun Auction - A "Piece of American History"

[Sargon The Grape]

Again, all irrelevant to the actual topic at hand.

From the look of things, that ship seems to have sailed already.

[Mike Cl]

I don't see how you can place responsibility on Zimmerman for following him but not on Martin for assaulting Zimmerman. If Martin assaulted Zimmerman, then all bets are off. 100% of the responsibility for Martin's death lies with himself if he attacked Zimmerman. All he had to do was not attack someone and he would be alive.

I'm not sure what I'd do if I were not far from home, and I noticed that I was being followed.  Would I run or confront the person following?  Would I be feeling brave--or scared shitless--especially if the other was seen to be armed.  In any case, if Zimmerman had simply backed off as the police told him to, none of this would have happened.  I look at this the same as the blame that is assigned in a crime in which a person is only a driver and does nothing but drive--his partner does the crime.  Both get equal blame for the crime, for the crime would not have happened if both had not been there.

[Baruch]

What did the law say?

NRA says, I can use my AK-47 on you, if I don't like the way you are looking at me.

The law will say in many places, you only use deadly force, if it is justifiable.  True for cops and civilians.  If Trayvon had been armed even with a knife ... one can assume he was deadly ... if just his hands ... then not so much.

[Baruch]

Remember that period of time in the beginning when Trayvon was an innocent 14 year old buying Skittles at the corner store?

So many people on these forums are so certain of his guilt. Reason range from "i don't like him as a person" to "Trayvon was black and Zimmerman wasn't therefore it was murder not self defense". You're all supposed to be skeptics. Do any of you apply that thought process to anything outside the question of religion?

Theres not enough evidence to conclude that it was murder, and nobody knows how the altercation went down. Yet so many of you are 100% certain he murdered an innocent black kid. What exactly are you basing that on? And just so we are clear I don't want to hear any circumstantial evidence cause theres enough of THAT to sufficiently support both sides. Whats your definitive proof? What piece of evidence makes you believe that you aren't just jumping to an emotionally driven conclusion?

If you can't give me a reasonable answer, and you consider yourself a skeptic, you may want to step back and take a look at yourself for a moment. THIS skeptic will continue to refuse to believe in things until sufficient evidence for them is available or attainable.

Nobody is innocent.  On that basis, I can kill all of you, in self defense.  Proportional response, not based on psychosis or racism ... please!

[FaithIsFilth]

From my point of view, if Zimmerman had backed off when the police had told him to,

Zimmerman didn't follow the dispatcher's suggestion, so he's responsible for Trayvon's death and he is a monster. Mike Brown didn't follow police orders, but he's a hero and is in no way responsible for his own death. Makes sense. Way to stay consistent, guys.

"If Trayvon were white, he would still be alive." Good to know. I guess out of the billions of racist people in the world, none of them have ever justifiably defended themselves. Never happened in human history. Trayvon being black is satisfactory evidence to show that  a murder was committed.

[Mike Cl]

Zimmerman didn't follow the dispatcher's suggestion, so he's responsible for Trayvon's death and he is a monster. Mike Brown didn't follow police orders, but he's a hero and is in no way responsible for his own death. Makes sense. Way to stay consistent, guys.

"If Trayvon were white, he would still be alive." Good to know. I guess out of the billions of racist people in the world, none of them have ever justifiably defended themselves. Never happened in human history. Trayvon being black is satisfactory evidence to show that  a murder was committed.

You are shoveling a lot of shit into my comments--shit I did not put there.  My only comment was that if---in this case--Zimmerman had followed the police suggestion Trayvon would still be alive.  I made no comment about the colors of the people involved--means nothing to me.  I did not make any comment about Brown and it is irrelevant the point I was/am making.  As for the billions of racists in the world--what does that have to do with anything I was talking about????? Zimmerman is a monster?  I did not say that--you did.  As seen from subsequent events he is a tad bit unhinged, however--to put it kindly.  Comment all you like on what I say--try keeping to what I said and not what you want me to say.

[Shiranu]

Zimmerman didn't follow the dispatcher's suggestion, so he's responsible for Trayvon's death and he is a monster. Mike Brown didn't follow police orders, but he's a hero and is in no way responsible for his own death. Makes sense. Way to stay consistent, guys.

"If Trayvon were white, he would still be alive." Good to know. I guess out of the billions of racist people in the world, none of them have ever justifiably defended themselves. Never happened in human history. Trayvon being black is satisfactory evidence to show that  a murder was committed.

I cannot speak for Mike, nor can you, but I think the overwhelming consensus is that it means Zimmerman has (alot of) responsibility for the situation escalating, not that he is completely and solely responsible. A distinction that seems to get ignored way too much whenever any situation like this arises. Saying that one party fucked up badly is not a statement of the other sides complete and utter innocence, it just means that one party fucked up bad.

[FaithIsFilth]

You are shoveling a lot of shit into my comments--shit I did not put there.  My only comment was that if---in this case--Zimmerman had followed the police suggestion Trayvon would still be alive.  I made no comment about the colors of the people involved--means nothing to me.  I did not make any comment about Brown and it is irrelevant the point I was/am making.  As for the billions of racists in the world--what does that have to do with anything I was talking about????? Zimmerman is a monster?  I did not say that--you did.  As seen from subsequent events he is a tad bit unhinged, however--to put it kindly.  Comment all you like on what I say--try keeping to what I said and not what you want me to say.

You're right. I was speaking to the people who think Zimmerman is a murderer in general, and I should have been more clear about that. I apologise. I don't know your opinion on the Mike Brown case, but I just find it funny how many people who think Zimmerman is a murderer will sound like some pro-police, anti-Black Lives Matter groups when talking about the case. "He should have just listened to the police dispatcher. If he had done what the police dispatcher had wanted him to do, no one would have died." This is the same nonsense that you hear from the racist organizations who brush aside all of the cases where black people have wrongfully been shot and killed by police. "The no good black thug should have just followed orders, and no one would have been killed." So, my point is that this argument doesn't even work when someone really does go against police orders, which Zimmerman never came close to doing, because he was never given any orders by police in the first place.

[FaithIsFilth]

I cannot speak for Mike, nor can you, but I think the overwhelming consensus is that it means Zimmerman has (alot of) responsibility for the situation escalating, not that he is completely and solely responsible. A distinction that seems to get ignored way too much whenever any situation like this arises. Saying that one party fucked up badly is not a statement of the other sides complete and utter innocence, it just means that one party fucked up bad.

I agree that Zimmerman has responsibility for the situation escalating, but so what? Eric Garner has responsibility for his situation escalating by not being ok with his arrest right away. That matters very little to me. What happened to Eric Garner was still wrong as hell, whether he was responsible for the situation escalating or not. So yeah, Eric Garner fucked up badly by doing things his way. Zimmerman fucked up badly by doing things his way. Zimmerman was well within his rights to "fuck up badly" however. One needs to do a lot more than fuck up badly to be a murderer.

[Baruch]

Killer then?  That covers Murder 1 thru Manslaughter 3.  And clearly since Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman, he isn't innocent either.  Two stupid guys.

[Shiranu]

Zimmerman was well within his rights to "fuck up badly" however.

When it leaves someone laying dead in the street, then it becomes a little bit more serious than just what his rights were or weren't.

"Your right" to do something doesn't make it right. And the court ruled he was within his "rights", not that he was right... which is far more important imo. He left a kid dead, so calling him a murderer is not a inaccurate statement. He is, by definition, a murderer, under common language if not legal jargon.

One needs to do a lot more than fuck up badly to be a murderer.

Shooting someone generally falls into that range of "a lot more".

[aitm]

and…….we're off again…..

[Sargon The Grape]

[Shiranu]

I had sworn myself off the crack that is this controversy, yet here I am...

With that, I will now bow out since the thread never was on topic nor can I stay on it myself. Au revoir.

[Johan]

He would have shot anyone that was beating the crap out of him.

There is no way to know that unless everyone beats the crap out of him.